Is the Pale Tree a dragon?

I've seen speculation on this before but not recently. Is the Pale Tree a dragon? She is the uncorrupted spawn of Mordremoth but does that quality her as a dragon. She started from a seed but wouldn't Mordremoth reproduce with seeds? Mordremoth's core was tied to a tree in Dragon's Stand. It seems to me that the evidence is strong enough in favor of her being a dragon.

With Kralkatorrik ravaging the Mists I think it would be interesting if the Pale Tree started rescuing important souls and putting them in the body of new Sylvari. It would be really interesting if those Sylvari were plant versions of the original characters. Like Tybalt being in the body of what looks like a Sylvari / Charr hybrid.

no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)

also from the wiki: These "lesser dragons" are not the same as Elder Dragons, who are ancient eldritch beings connected to The All and balance the magic of the world.

also pretty sure the pale tree can't do that (and let's not cheapen death)

@"derd.6413" said:no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)

also from the wiki: These "lesser dragons" are not the same as Elder Dragons, who are ancient eldritch beings connected to The All and balance the magic of the world.

Aurene is a lesser dragon that the characters hoped would take her place as an Elder Dragon.

also pretty sure the pale tree can't do that (and let's not cheapen death)

We don't know that she can't do that. ;) Also plenty of dead characters show up from the Mists. Death is not the end in the Guild Wars universe. Death isn't just the end of physical life; it's change from one state to another so why not have another state change facilitated by a powerful being that's shown spiritual abilities? It would interesting to see former Norn, Charr, Humans and Asura coming to grips with becoming Sylvari and connected to the dream.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@"derd.6413" said:no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)

also from the wiki: These "lesser dragons" are not the same as Elder Dragons, who are ancient eldritch beings connected to The All and balance the magic of the world.

yes, but there's still a difference

also pretty sure the pale tree can't do that (and let's not cheapen death)

@"derd.6413" said:no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)Dragon champion, if we're technicaly. But the "why that matters" is that we need 2-6 replacements in total, so we need another besides Aurene. Scions can replace Elder Dragons, and the Pale Tree may-or-may-not count as a potential replacement. And that'd be mighty important to know if she could replace Mordremoth now that she's awake after reforging Caladbolg.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:We don't know that she can't do that. ;) Also plenty of dead characters show up from the Mists. Death is not the end in the Guild Wars universe. Death isn't just the end of physical life; it's change from one state to another so why not have another state change facilitated by a powerful being that's shown spiritual abilities? It would interesting to see former Norn, Charr, Humans and Asura coming to grips with becoming Sylvari and connected to the dream.

No reason to think she can, either. She doesn't have a connection to the Mists. The Dream is not spiritual, btw. It is described as a _mind_scape.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"derd.6413" said:no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)Dragon champion, if we're technicaly. But the "why that matters" is that we need 2-6 replacements in total, so we need another besides Aurene. Scions can replace Elder Dragons, and the Pale Tree may-or-may-not count as a potential replacement. And that'd be mighty important to know if she could replace Mordremoth now that she's awake after reforging Caladbolg.

does the pale tree have to be a dragon to become an ED replacement?

Yeah Mordremoth was essentially a large seed spouting massive vines and serpent like appendages.He didn't look like a traditional dragon at all which is one of the reasons I like him so much.

I wouldn't call the Pale Tree a dragon.. but I believe she has the potential to evolve into one if she possessed enough magic.. something I think we will get to see eventually in Gw2.She's the obvious choice to succeed Mordremoth's position after all.. and it would be pretty amazing to see the Pale Tree transform into a giant flower dragon and spout magnificent wings made from giant flower petals then fly away taking her Sylvari with her as they continue to live on her body and protect her as she flies around the world with her children to explore it with them for the first time.Wonderful concept that would be to see in the games finale :D

@derd.6413 said:

does the pale tree have to be a dragon to become an ED replacement?

I think the Pale Tree is a dragon because she is the offspring of Mordremoth. Yes she was created to be Mordremoth's champion but Glint was kralkatorrik's champion, later replaced by the Shatterer. The Claw is Jormag's champ and Tequatl the Sunless was Zhaitan's champion; all dragons on their own right. Given Mordremoth's plant nature it seems that it would reproduce with via a seed. A seed like the one that the Pale Tree came from.

Wrathbringer is not a dragon but was explicitly confirmed by developers to have been Kralk's champion. It is plausible that the Elder Dragons simply gravitate to making champions looks somewhat like themselves.

Based on that I doubt one needs to have the form of a dragon to operate as one, which would make PT a viable replacement for Mordy.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

also pretty sure the pale tree can't do that (and let's not cheapen death)

For my own part, I tend to lean more towards leaving death as the unknown frontier- especially with characters like the mentors, who've already been 'brought back' a number of times over the years. I would tend to see a sylvari reincarnation as more irritating than interesting. But it's all just down to personal taste.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@derd.6413 said:

does the pale tree have to be a dragon to become an ED replacement?

To be fair, Mordremoth already had a champion like that: the Shadow of the Dragon, who was entirely in the same vein as the Shatterer and the Claw. It'd be one thing if he didn't have any lesser dragons and we were trying to piece together why, but given that he did have one, there's not much need to suspect his trees of being dragons, any more than we need to suspect Zhaitan's giants of being dragons.

Whether the Pale Tree could potentially replace Mordremoth regardless is a separate question. For all that it's been our explicit goal for a year and a half now, we still don't know the first thing about what requirements or procedures go into that process. I suspect the Pale Tree does qualify to fill the role- she's already indicated to be linked to Tyria on a metaphysical level, which appears to be the main tricky aspect about the Dragons right now- but the writers have left themselves enough room that they could go any direction they pleased with it.

@derd.6413 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@derd.6413 said:no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)Dragon champion, if we're technicaly. But the "why that matters" is that we need 2-6 replacements in total, so we need another besides Aurene. Scions can replace Elder Dragons, and the Pale Tree may-or-may-not count as a potential replacement. And that'd be mighty important to know if she could replace Mordremoth now that she's awake after reforging Caladbolg.

We don't know.

@Teratus.2859 said:Yeah Mordremoth was essentially a large seed spouting massive vines and serpent like appendages.He didn't look like a traditional dragon at all which is one of the reasons I like him so much.

He was a serpentine dragon. There's plenty of such designs through mesoamerican and asian mythologies.

@Teratus.2859 said:She's the obvious choice to succeed Mordremoth's position after all.. and it would be pretty amazing to see the Pale Tree transform into a giant flower dragon and spout magnificent wings made from giant flower petals then fly away taking her Sylvari with her as they continue to live on her body and protect her as she flies around the world with her children to explore it with them for the first time.Wonderful concept that would be to see in the games finale :D

Problem would be that The Grove couldn't change. But "maps stuck in time" and all that, I suppose.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@derd.6413 said:no, she's a dragon minion but not a dragon, (don't see why that matters)Dragon champion, if we're technicaly. But the "why that matters" is that we need 2-6 replacements in total, so we need another besides Aurene. Scions can replace Elder Dragons, and the Pale Tree may-or-may-not count as a potential replacement. And that'd be mighty important to know if she could replace Mordremoth now that she's awake after reforging Caladbolg.

@Teratus.2859 said:Yeah Mordremoth was essentially a large seed spouting massive vines and serpent like appendages.He didn't look like a traditional dragon at all which is one of the reasons I like him so much.

@Teratus.2859 said:She's the obvious choice to succeed Mordremoth's position after all.. and it would be pretty amazing to see the Pale Tree transform into a giant flower dragon and spout magnificent wings made from giant flower petals then fly away taking her Sylvari with her as they continue to live on her body and protect her as she flies around the world with her children to explore it with them for the first time.Wonderful concept that would be to see in the games finale :D

You mean like how Lion's Arch is stuck in time?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

He was a serpentine dragon. There's plenty of such designs through mesoamerican and asian mythologies.

He manifests some aspects of a serpentine dragon but he is firmly rooted in the giant ancient tree on the Dragon's Stand map. He sends his roots out into the world thus never has to fly away like the other EDs do. To me it appears that he is the tree and any manifestation is largely an avatar like the Pale Tree's avatar.

@"Teratus.2859" said:

There is no lore that I know of that prevents the Grove or any map from changing. It's just the devs choosing not to update it. I've long wanted to see an update of the Grove to include a water front beach with docks and a way to go from the grove directly to Southsun Cove. Maybe along a vine walk path to the island at the western side of Southsun Cove.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

He was a serpentine dragon. There's plenty of such designs through mesoamerican and asian mythologies.

The vines are merely his corruption which he can have his mind inhabit.

There is no lore that I know of that prevents the Grove or any map from changing. It's just the devs choosing not to update it. I've long wanted to see an update of the Grove to include a water front beach with docks and a way to go from the grove directly to Southsun Cove. Maybe along a vine walk path to the island at the western side of Southsun Cove.

The fact that the Pale Tree literally is the Grove, which is the starting city, kind of prevents developers from altering it in such a massive way as to literally remove the entire city except the lowest ground floor. Updating the Grove to remove the Pale Tree would be basically the same as removing the map from the game. Not to mention it would be MASSIVELY confusing to new players who go in and out of "no tree" and "tree" versions as they go through the starter story.

Smaller updates like water access? Sure, have at it. But removing 80% of the map would be too drastic.

Besides this, ArenaNet has avoided altering starter zones since Flame and Frost ended, to reduce new player confusion, and the change of LA in the personal story still confuses some new players to this day. It was even worse during the period when LA was destroyed, especially with Destiny's Edge meeting casually in the middle of a freakin' warzone. Imagine that, but it happens right away in the game.

It's not really a matter of lore, but avoiding design idiocy.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

He was a serpentine dragon. There's plenty of such designs through mesoamerican and asian mythologies.

There is no lore that I know of that prevents the Grove or any map from changing. It's just the devs choosing not to update it. I've long wanted to see an update of the Grove to include a water front beach with docks and a way to go from the grove directly to Southsun Cove. Maybe along a vine walk path to the island at the western side of Southsun Cove.

I never said removing the tree. There is plenty of space on the map for a waterfront accessed via tunnels on the lower levels. Everything there should remain.

@Tekoneiric.6817 said:

@derd.6413 said:

does the pale tree have to be a dragon to become an ED replacement?

couple of things wrong with that.1) we know she was a minion but there is never a mention of her being an offspring. (or scion)2) not all champions are dragons (the great destroyer comes to mind but a quick wiki search will reveal more) in fact most dragon champs we know of aren't dragons themselves3) we know what kind of minion the pale tree was supposed to be, namely: a blighting tree, not a dragon.

No, she isn't. Case closed.

I don't think the word Scion has anything to do with whether Aurene can or can't replace Kralkatorrik. That's just what Glint calls her kids.

@Yannir.4132 said:I don't think the word Scion has anything to do with whether Aurene can or can't replace Kralkatorrik. That's just what Glint calls her kids.

scion is the term used for the child of a dragon.

@derd.6413 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:I don't think the word Scion has anything to do with whether Aurene can or can't replace Kralkatorrik. That's just what Glint calls her kids.

Yes. Someone just insinuated that in order to replace an ED you need to be a Scion. Which is incorrect.

No, the Pale Tree is not a dragon. She is a former dragon champion, a "clean" version of the corrupt Blighting Trees we see in HoT. Exactly HOW she became "clean" is still a small mystery; the simplest explanation is that she grew at a safe distance from Mordremoth, under benevolent influences from Ronan and Ventari. Back in the days before LS2 and HoT, there was much speculation that Melandru had something to do with the Pale Tree, though that no longer seems the case since HoT.

Personally, I wish ANet would give us at least a small update on the status of the Pale Tree. In the game timeline, it's been four years and change since we last heard from her, which was the Caladbolg quest after HoT. It would be nice to hear from her and know how her healing is going, just for the sake of our Sylvari characters.

@"Tekoneiric.6817" said:I never said removing the tree. There is plenty of space on the map for a waterfront accessed via tunnels on the lower levels. Everything there should remain.

People never remember the start of the conversations... -insert facepalm here-

You didn't. Teratus did.

"She's the obvious choice to succeed Mordremoth's position after all.. and it would be pretty amazing to see the Pale Tree transform into a giant flower dragon and spout magnificent wings made from giant flower petals then fly away taking her Sylvari with her as they continue to live on her body and protect her as she flies around the world with her children to explore it with them for the first time."

This is what I quoted while responding with the fact that changing the Grove would be an issue, that you disagreed with.

"The Pale Tree transform into a giant flower dragon [...] then fly away taking her sylvari with her [...]". Removal of the Grove and, effectively, all sylvari from the map and arguably the game.

That's no god damned waterfront addition.

@"Jimbru.6014" said:No, the Pale Tree is not a dragon. She is a former dragon champion, a "clean" version of the corrupt Blighting Trees we see in HoT. Exactly HOW she became "clean" is still a small mystery; the simplest explanation is that she grew at a safe distance from Mordremoth, under benevolent influences from Ronan and Ventari. Back in the days before LS2 and HoT, there was much speculation that Melandru had something to do with the Pale Tree, though that no longer seems the case since HoT.

Personally, I wish ANet would give us at least a small update on the status of the Pale Tree. In the game timeline, it's been four years and change since we last heard from her, which was the Caladbolg quest after HoT. It would be nice to hear from her and know how her healing is going, just for the sake of our Sylvari characters.

Your "simplest explanation" is false, because Malyck. And Svanir. And Mazdak. And pretty much every single dragon minion that has a large distance to its Elder Dragon, but shows absolutely no difference. As well as the entire point of Glint's purification ritual being unique, as that and the entire Orr campaign is repeatedly stressing the fact that dragon minions have their very will and mind enslaved and nothing bar that or similar purification rituals can free their mind and give them new free will.

The simplest explanation is that a group used a ritual similar to that used on Glint on the cave of seeds Ronan found, thus explaining not just the Pale Tree, but Malyck too.

Also, Caladbolg happened during the later half of Season 3, which would be just under 2 years ago. Not 4.

This is what Sadizi said in the way forward from a PoF.

Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

Notice he doesn’t state Dragons, but entities, which really opens up to what could replace an Elder Dragon.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Tekoneiric.6817" said:I never said removing the tree. There is plenty of space on the map for a waterfront accessed via tunnels on the lower levels. Everything there should remain.

@"Jimbru.6014" said:No, the Pale Tree is not a dragon. She is a former dragon champion, a "clean" version of the corrupt Blighting Trees we see in HoT. Exactly HOW she became "clean" is still a small mystery; the simplest explanation is that she grew at a safe distance from Mordremoth, under benevolent influences from Ronan and Ventari. Back in the days before LS2 and HoT, there was much speculation that Melandru had something to do with the Pale Tree, though that no longer seems the case since HoT.

Personally, I wish ANet would give us at least a small update on the status of the Pale Tree. In the game timeline, it's been four years and change since we last heard from her, which was the Caladbolg quest after HoT. It would be nice to hear from her and know how her healing is going, just for the sake of our Sylvari characters.

Of the champions you mentioned, only one belonged to Mordremoth. The devs have explained the Mordremoth's corruption is different than the other dragons. When we met Malyck there seemed to be no mordremoth influence on him. Am I forgetting something. We don't know where he came from as we never located his tree and we really don't know how he got to us. we only have a vague understanding about his whereabouts and therefore he proves nothing.Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Svanir become a champion at Lake Drakkar? Isn't there a dragon champion frozen in Lake Drakkar? Finally why were all the sylvari that fell for Mordremoth near Maguuma? why didn't they fall for him in ascalon? Proximity to elder dragons does make a difference. Aerin didn't come under mordremoths influence until he was close.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Yeah Mordremoth was essentially a large seed spouting massive vines and serpent like appendages.He didn't look like a traditional dragon at all which is one of the reasons I like him so much.

@Teratus.2859 said:She's the obvious choice to succeed Mordremoth's position after all.. and it would be pretty amazing to see the Pale Tree transform into a giant flower dragon and spout magnificent wings made from giant flower petals then fly away taking her Sylvari with her as they continue to live on her body and protect her as she flies around the world with her children to explore it with them for the first time.Wonderful concept that would be to see in the games finale :D

I was thinking this event would be something that happens in Gw2's ending cutscene/finale.. something that could then be explored in a sequel game if Anet ever did make a Gw3.It would be way to difficult to pull off in game although if the Pale tree did become an elder dragon fairly soon but remain the grove she could start producing more powerful champions.. plant dragons like Shadow or something.Be pretty fun to see good jungle dragons fighting against the other dragon champions ^^I doubt we'd see anything like that though.. would be a lot of work and the only real benefit would be.. it looks awesome lol