[Suggestion] Sinister Stones: Enabling Players To make New Content.

Hi all,

First let me say that I really love this game. I have never stayed so long with a mmorpg in my life. However, I feel that GW2 could use a boost in the downtime between living story and festivals. I have come up with a solution that utilizes the player base and that I believe would generate a good amount of money for ANET but not require a lot of dev time making it. Also this idea would KEEP making money as the possibilities for varied game play are endless.

Enter Sinister Stones ( call it what you will). Sinister Stones allow you to be attacked by players that wish to participate in a fight against you in the pve realm. It enables players to play the role of the bad guy or boss. The basic sinister stone leaves your abilities intact and has a couple slots for rewards you can give to the people that defeat you. You can upgrade your sinister stone to allow tier 1 transformations which give you a choice of different bad guy looks and perhaps add different skill sets.

The next level of Sinister stones are more guild oriented. Guilds can work to craft BOSS Sinister stones. Once completed they can host events. The Boss Stones, when used, allow a player to transform into huge creatures like dragons, etc. and they have unique skills.

Perhaps very rare items would allow an individual to have a BOSS STONE without guild requirements... or require a larger gemstore purchase.

The stones can be used in a very theatrical production Rp kinda way or people can simply activate them to provide something interesting to kill. The possibilities are endless.

Now of course these stones will need a certain limit to them. We don't want to create chaos in the world. So timers would have to be implemented, now it might be a combination of timers attached to the users but also the map. The big guild level sinister stones would probably need a longer timer. Adjust as necessary. and also the rules for attacking must be enabled or disabled in a certain way so people can't troll and make you accidentally attack the sinister stone wearer.

Lets look at the benefits:

1. ANET can utilize many already created assets.
2. No large amounts of time developing music, maps, physics coding
3. The Stones themselves would have a very high near infinite replay ability
4. Not only would the stones generate revenue directly, gemstore or otherwise, they could also have a snow ball effect with already existing items. an example "oh this would make a great skin to use with my sinister stone".

Sit back and imagine at the top of a JP there's a boss with a story that you never expected. Or on your way to the daily you run into a bandit that wants to steal your money. Imagine a group of bandits break into the black lion vault and its your job to stop them from making off with the goods. Like I said... the possibilities are endless.

This would also further the idea of DYNAMIC events, Which gw2 really pushed the industry forward but still left more to be desired. Instead of complicated AI, utilizing the player base makes sense to me to bring it to the next level. Just like other events in map, you would see a new event alert when a sinister stone was activated.

It's hard to rally the troops to new ideas, but please do give this some consideration.

Oh Also Guild Dungeons would be cool. A place to challenge other guilds or give players a rp theatrical experience. Kinda like haunted mazes but not scary stuff.. unless you wanted to.

Now, for a change, a really good idea. Actually, I was thinking about something like this, but more in context of RPing (i.e. to allow human players to become a monster with all required skills, for a limited group of people participating in an event). But it seems to me, Anet are not very interested in hearing their playerbase's suggestions (not a single answer from them over the last year in 15 pages thread on Ele issues and suggestions gives me this impression in particular). Though, I would really like to see it's implemented. Even if there won't be any reward from killing a player posing as a monster, I'm looking forward to face a something with regular mob's skills, but controlled by the most sophisticated AI you can get - human mind :) At last, there could be a not so boring PvE content in game with this implemented.

If i worked at anet right now,and i had enough downtime to peruse the forums,i'd be using that time to take my cupcake and coffee platter to my bosses office.....

Sadly, people would use this to turn themselves into loot pinatas for their friends (or anyone willing to pay). All they would have to do is not attack, and the other player is sure to win.

Now, that's not to say that this isn't a step in the right direction, because it is. The only way an MMO can come close to keeping up with the playerbase's rate of content consumption is to have either procedurally generated content or player generated content. City of Heroes had both, and while the procedurally generated content eventually got boring, the player created stuff almost always had something new to offer. Sometimes it was gods awful, yes, but there was also some pretty good stuff put out by the players. Sadly, it was also prone to exploitation, no matter how many things they stomped down.

While I think GW2 could benefit from either (or both) of these, I don't think ANet is going to be willing to tackle the tasks to implement either. Be it automated (CoH style) or player controlled (your idea), it would take a ton of work.

@Palador.2170 said:Sadly, people would use this to turn themselves into loot pinatas for their friends (or anyone willing to pay). All they would have to do is not attack, and the other player is sure to win.

Sorry, can't see your point. Why would they do that? I guess OP's idea is that those encounters will be fun-only, so won't give you any EXP or loot (except loot which player posing as monster put into it, but in that case you effectively just give away your own stuff to your friends, so it's not even an issue, you can do it through mail system any time currently).

Though there will surely be people using it in not very nice ways, perhaps (like it's possible with any other system), the fact that participation is optional dismisses any possible issues here. You don't like event - you quit, that's it. Then you stick to some other content provider group.

I only see immense benefits coming from this system, including some players or guilds providing challenging, customized combat encounters, and even whole little stories of their own to those who want to play a game and don't care about rewards and farm. Like, imagine fighting mobs which utilize all their skills effectively and cooperate with each other - as they are controlled by human players. That's your ultimate high-tier PvE experience, not some static dungeons or fractals, inhabited by trash mobs you just AoE into oblivion :D

This feature will also be of immense value to RP community of the game, for obvious reason.

Though, couldn't agree with you more on this part:

The only way an MMO can come close to keeping up with the playerbase's rate of content consumption is to have either procedurally generated content or player generated contentI would prioritize procedurally-generated content though, as player-generated one is not predictable, it's basically people doing stuff for free without any obligations. It's ok to have both at the same time, though. If only Anet were interested in developing game as a game (not some casual social platform) enough..

@"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

Sorry, can't see your point. Why would they do that? I guess OP's idea is that those encounters will be fun-only, so won't give you any EXP or loot (except loot which player posing as monster put into it, but in that case you effectively just give away your own stuff to your friends, so it's not even an issue, you can do it through mail system any time currently).

Oops. I appear to have misread part of that post. Somehow (and now I'm not sure how) I had the impression that the idea was to slot more generic "Generate Level X Treasure" items into there, and then that's what they'd get on kill. If there's no EXP and only "donated" treasure, then yeah, no exploit problem there.

However, that THEN brings in a new problem. While many RPers might indeed get some good use out of it, a lot of other players would quickly get burned by going through one of these events and getting "crap" rewards for it. Soon, most people would just ignore the things, unless it's set up by someone beforehand with their agreement. You'll also have people trying to jump into the event and grab the rewards, which clearly can't be given to everyone that joins in on the fight. Ignored or ganked, you'd still have problems.

@"Palador.2170" said:However, that THEN brings in a new problem. While many RPers might indeed get some good use out of it, a lot of other players would quickly get burned by going through one of these events and getting "kitten" rewards for it. Soon, most people would just ignore the things, unless it's set up by someone beforehand with their agreement.

That's it. That only potential I see in it - an occasional fun events somebody organize because they don't have anything more fun to do in the game, or RP activities. It still have a lot of potential in terms of making creativity blossom within community, even if mostly it will be used by guilders for their own, internal events, it still step in the right direction.

But overall, you are right and by itself it's not even remotely enough to solve the problem of lack of content - that's why I called it "unpredictable". Procedural generation, imo, is the way to go - but only if they are ready to invest enough effort into it and build really feature-rich random generated events/ecosystems (like ones seen in top tier roguelike games out there), as badly designed proc-gen engine will just be source of boredom and frustration.

That and, ofc, enhancing AI of the mobs in high-tier PvE content, as currently it's just "chaff" you kill with AoE en-mass on your way to the boss. It's simply boring after you'll learn how to do it once. There must be PvE content with engaging AI opponents in it, not just casual trash you see in most places of OpenWorld, and even in fractals/raids (those just have more hp and damage, still the same boring "chaff")

@Palador.2170 said:

@"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

Sorry, can't see your point. Why would they do that? I guess OP's idea is that those encounters will be fun-only, so won't give you any EXP or loot (except loot which player posing as monster put into it, but in that case you effectively just give away your own stuff to your friends, so it's not even an issue, you can do it through mail system any time currently).

Oops. I appear to have misread part of that post. Somehow (and now I'm not sure how) I had the impression that the idea was to slot more generic "Generate Level X Treasure" items into there, and then that's what they'd get on kill. If there's no EXP and only "donated" treasure, then yeah, no exploit problem there.

Ive actually considered that. I believe if you limit what loot can drop and then next to the activated boss/player you see a tier level of loot that would remove most of the issue of getting nothing out of it. Perhaps a select list of items that would adjust tier and if someone want to random loot the tier indicator would be a "?" indicating you could get hardly nothing or it could be a really good prize. Another way to combat wasted attempts is by reputation. If you see the Sinister Stone user in a reputable guild for instance, that's another layer. Also the mechanic can work so that if the sinister stone activator leaves map d/c etc and as long as you tag them, you get the loot.

This reminds me of bounty system long long time ago on a MUD I use to play. I think it would provide less "scripted" content which would be a huge benefit to random encounters. Other reasons to roam old maps...

Besides other objections above, which you have neatly answered in creative (good creative) ways, I can see another problem for which I hope you have a solution: Given that there are always griefers, even in this relatively griefer-free game, how do you keep players from deliberately spawning these things on top of other events that people are trying to complete, or in non-aggro areas that rp'ers are doing a scene in? Imagine a peaceful picnic a few guildies are having in a spot that never gets aggro and suddenly a player-made big-bad stomps on in and there's combat effects all over the place.

@"Donari.5237" said:Besides other objections above, which you have neatly answered in creative (good creative) ways, I can see another problem for which I hope you have a solution: Given that there are always griefers, even in this relatively griefer-free game, how do you keep players from deliberately spawning these things on top of other events that people are trying to complete, or in non-aggro areas that rp'ers are doing a scene in? Imagine a peaceful picnic a few guildies are having in a spot that never gets aggro and suddenly a player-made big-bad stomps on in and there's combat effects all over the place.

I'm not the author, but that could be tackled down some way or another, for sure. The simplest way perhaps would be to "lock" area within a certain radius around the person which activated the item - so no one can put another event in this area until it's active. Surely you could grief by locking certain spot for a while, but, realistically, you hardly will lock all Tyria like that, or even a single map of it - unless you're really determined fella with a bunch of extra real cash on you wallet - and that's the case where Anet's admins should jump in and restore order their way.

Creating some kind of instanced part of map for those involved in event with no regular PvE content it it, just the map itself, is another way - the same way how it happens during personal story missions.

I absolutely love these ideas of course I also would like to see player to player trading but .-. ah well. I hope they take your suggestion!!!

If you want to fight corrdinated people aint wvw or spvp the place to go?

@Donari.5237 said:Besides other objections above, which you have neatly answered in creative (good creative) ways, I can see another problem for which I hope you have a solution: Given that there are always griefers, even in this relatively griefer-free game, how do you keep players from deliberately spawning these things on top of other events that people are trying to complete, or in non-aggro areas that rp'ers are doing a scene in? Imagine a peaceful picnic a few guildies are having in a spot that never gets aggro and suddenly a player-made big-bad stomps on in and there's combat effects all over the place.

These are valid concerns and I have a few solutions which could be used by themselves or in tandem. I want to also agree that for the most part i wouldn't see this becoming an issue as the community is pretty good when it comes to stuff like this.

1. Implementing a Proximity zone and Tether- I would imagine there is data that can be utilized to determine the distance of a sinister stone event from a regular event. if those two events get close to eachother, a warning is issued for the stone user and they have so many seconds to move away. If they fail to move away in time then the stone event is ended. A tether would only allow a sinister stone event to move a certain distance away from where it was activated. This would make it so other rp events or people just chilling would only have to relocate once if someone was trying to grief them. Also a stone couldnt be activated on top of a no stone zone I.E. active event.
2. Disable certain graphics for sinister stone events.- If you don't want to participate because you want to focus on something else then disabling Sinister Stone notifications would be one option. Depending on the effort to code something like this you could also have graphic options to block stone monsters.
3. You could have an added reporting option for griefing with the stone. enough reports could result in a longer cooldown for using it or whatever ANET deems appropriate.
4. You would also have minimum space sizes a particular stone could be used in(like the mount space limitation but on different scales. Giant dragons spawning in common rp places like buildings wouldn't be an issue. The more cozy places that common Rp is often used for could be small enough for all stones to not work in them depending on if its really needed or not.
5. People who don't want to be bothered and are chilling in one spot could activate a NO Sinister Stone area. This could be made available to players and also could be used for stationary areas like crafting, tp, bank stations.

Take note that # 1 and # 5 could use the same code with the exception of number 5 requiring code to give the player an ability to deploy a no stone zone on the fly. Essentially the no stone zones could act the same way for other events, crafting, banking, and tp stations etc.

@Linken.6345 said:If you want to fight corrdinated people aint wvw or spvp the place to go?

No, it isn't. PvP/WvW is highly competitive environment, with its own rules and requirements, which never will be to everybody's liking. Tourists with their own way of playing are not weclome there, and no one will be tolerating them playing their own games there, they'll just get killed. The problem of GW2 is that there is no middleground for those who search for opponents with better AI - in OpenWorld and Fractals/Raids you'll find just dumb chaff, mostly HP pool and damage will be only difference. In PvP you'll find the other kind of extreme - highly min-maxed, extremely competitive people, using only efficient tactics of certain kind. And if you want to find something in the middle, and also don't want to be disturbed by other players - you are out of luck. This idea would partly resolve this issue, allowing sort of limited PvP in PvE realm, with optional RP element.

Great idea, better developed than my version HERE Paragraph 3. Those mechanics sound very cool, and I'm always for things helping to RP / allowing to be a baddy for once. Keep up the good work OP! :) :+1: :D

Through I would just suggest "Ranks" tied stones, veteran-elite-champion and legendary for guild.

Veteran would give you access to basic looking enemies: Bandits/Nightmare court/Sons of Svanir/Flame Legion/Inquest/Basic Dragon minionsFor Elite, more exotic foes: Powered suits/ Flame Effigy/ Karkas/ Aetherblades, Toxic and Molten Alliences/ Watchworks/ Dungeon bossesChampion: Fractals & Raids bosses / Orders Mentors / Djinns, stonehead, exalted, chaksLegendary: World bosses / wyverns / huge dragons lieutenants / LS bosses

For limitations: Per map, you can spawn a maximum worth of 8 Veterans.1 Legendary worth 8 Veterans, 1 Champion worth 4 Veterans, 1 Elite worth 2 Veterans.

So as example, a map could welcome: 8 Veterans OR 4 Elites OR 2 Champions OR 1 LegendaryAlso mix: 2 Elites + 4 Veterans or 1 Champion + 2 Elites or 4 Elites.....

Without commenting on the idea itself, I will say it will take far more development time than I think you're giving it credit for. They would have to dedicate to it like a major content release, not as filler content they toss out while they develop LW and expacs.

@JDub.1530 said:Without commenting on the idea itself, I will say it will take far more development time than I think you're giving it credit for. They would have to dedicate to it like a major content release, not as filler content they toss out while they develop LW and expacs.

I'm going to have to disagree. It could be released slowly over time. The initial release could be for the lower tier stones which could at first simply turn you into an enemy. This code already exists as shown in the pvp lobby when you drop down into the arena. It might take longer to put together the code that would not allow you to activate the stone on active events and time out if your with in proximity, but shouldn't that be easier than... say having a dragon crash through a wall and hitting it when its downed?

I feel the basic concept could be done with at most a third of the resources it takes for just one living story episode. That might be naive of me. The largest task I see is the balancing philosophy. It could start very simplified and be indicated buy the stone users color. If the stone user wanted to provide just a fun experience it could be lvl 1. A medium difficulty lvl 2 and lvl 3 for people who would want a real challenge.

Interesting idea.

Would fighting the transformed player be a purely opt-in thing (with a visible clue), or could people end up in a fight with a player-created enemy simply for doing an aoe at the wrong place and time? How do you communicate to new players that don't know such things exist that the mob in front of them is not a regular tuned area mob but something player created that might be vastly different in strength than the regular enemies they've come to know so far?

Will the transformed player gain anything (loot, experience, ...) if they kill the attacking players?

How do you keep rmt traders from slotting the gold/mats/legendary bought from them as rewards, then finding a secluded spot where the buyer just kills them (without them fighting back) and grabs the loot they bought?

Can this system be set up without increasing the workload of the team that handles reports, but still keep it from being used to grief other players? I'd rather not have "duelling spam" the way I've come to know it in other games, with both visual and audio noise due to players fighting each other, but will I grief those who'd like to stage such a fight if I activate a "no player vs player battles" aura around me anywhere I go in pve? What happens if you're fighting in an area and somebody else comes by that doesn't want to see player vs player fights /duels/whatever in their pve world?

I just see level 80s trolling Queensdale.

An idea like that could be implemented to guild bounties, with having a player control the npc, on activation. I suppose it could solve the problem with rewards and event interactions. It may even be easier to add in the game (well, it's a complete assumption on my part, heh)

@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@JDub.1530 said:Without commenting on the idea itself, I will say it will take far more development time than I think you're giving it credit for. They would have to dedicate to it like a major content release, not as filler content they toss out while they develop LW and expacs.

They have to code the new item. They have to implement what effect it has on the character that uses it--I don't know their engine so I wouldn't assume it's as simple as it works in the PvP arena or any other competitive zone. They have to make sure there aren't any weird state bugs like getting stuck permanently in a hostile state, which could depend on the rules when the effect is removed: timer, death, etc... They have to make sure it cannot accept any allied effects like heals or boons. What if they are in a party or squad? Would that have any undesirable side effects? They would have to code a whole system of voluntary participation, so you can just activate one of these and rampage through starter zones. Or cities? Would it function there? If so, are there things they have to consider there. If not, are there side effects they miss? So they have to make sure it can only be triggered in approved areas. Can you attack NPCs--probably not? So they have to make sure that doesn't happen. (If NPCs can get involved I foresee even a more complicated set of variable.)

I'm not saying it's impossible to implement. I just don't think it will be simple. Not to mention we're talking about an ANet that added a new mount achievement that includes areas where mounts are disabled. A blocked achievement is one thing. A whole new combat system in open world is something they can't afford to screw up.

This may sound strange from a PvE player who is warming up to WvW more and more, but I like my PvE environments without player-fights.

When I am in PvE-"modus" I find players fighting eachother very distracting, immersionbreaking and often downright annoying. Player fights are distintcly different and often protracted too. There are MMO's that have this and I found it annoying having to endure two players circle-strafing eachother for minutes on end if not longer, while I am "in the PvE zone". And then I have to see someone "win" and most likely, they will be at it within minutes again, or else maybe two others? If I am chilling in some zone I can do without the adrenaline soaked flashy stuff whirling around me.