Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly

24

Comments

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    No, I'm not ... but I agree, you can't balance games. That's why it's nonsense to think Anet is primarily driven to make game changes by forum QQ. Put it this way ... if there were no player inputs, Anet would be changing the game anyways, so forum QQ is definitely not necessary for Anet to implement their idea of the game.

    Didn't say all changes made are because of QQ, but you can obviously see that some are made because of QQ.
    As for mesmer's changes, they honestly have NO idea of what works and how it works and so on, the changes are random, I remember some phantasm and gaining might or something =p

    Also take another example, if revenants didn't complain about bruce lee kick "shiro's PT skill", it would have been "Bug fixed" forever. They bug fixed it and then they bugged it again =p

    We all make mistakes but they honestly have no idea whats going on, specially on mesmers side, they nerfed like everything.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2019

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    I get your bitter you don't like their changes to Mesmer. What i don't get is that somehow you act like these changes are a surprise or they are unique. The fact is that these changes are happening all the time, in every balance patch to all classes. Haven't you been paying attention to how Anet changes the game for the last 7 years?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    If they do. And this is the quality of balance then that just makes the entire company completely incompetent.

    Also, is calling people salty and bitter the new " X main spotted" ?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I already posted a thread on the 1 shot cookie cutter mesmer build(Chrono/Mirage) There's nothing else. No other reliable build. This is it! Deal with it...

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    If they do. And this is the quality of balance then that just makes the entire company completely incompetent.

    Also, is calling people salty and bitter the new " X main spotted" ?

    or it just means they have a different idea of what balanced is. Are people so presumptuous that they assume only what they think is relevant to how Anet should do things? Put those big egos away boys ... what you think does not affect how this game is developed.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    If they do. And this is the quality of balance then that just makes the entire company completely incompetent.

    Also, is calling people salty and bitter the new " X main spotted" ?

    or it just means they have a different idea of what balanced is. Are people so presumptuous that they assume only what they think is relevant to how Anet should do things? Put those big egos away boys ... what you think does not affect how this game is developed.

    So they're just trolling us when they expressly invite feedback, or post a patch note preview in advance for community comment?

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    So they're just trolling us when they expressly invite feedback, or post a patch note preview in advance for community comment?

    He is delusional as heck. Shoulda left this "you are all salty big egos plebs" alone long ago.
    Stop quoting me so I get notification from it?

  • MrPhantasia.5924MrPhantasia.5924 Member ✭✭✭

    Forum suggestions will not 1:1 drive all balance changes. But they DO factor into it at least in terms of general direction. Look at how Mesmer and mirage kept getting nerfed even after representation started lagging behind engineer and warrior and rev representation in both high rated ranked and MATS including winning teams.

    Like you seriously don't think stuff like the Jawgeous rant don't impact dev decisions? They're literally making direct changes based on his suggestions like gutting Blinding Dissipation.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2019

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:
    Forum suggestions will not 1:1 drive all balance changes. But they DO factor into it at least in terms of general direction. Look at how Mesmer and mirage kept getting nerfed even after representation started lagging behind engineer and warrior and rev representation in both high rated ranked and MATS including winning teams.

    Like you seriously don't think stuff like the Jawgeous rant don't impact dev decisions? They're literally making direct changes based on his suggestions like gutting Blinding Dissipation.

    That was his idea? I told that alrdy , this animal shouldnt be reaching dev ears, ever. About his rant that clones have too much HP they told him they cant make it even lower than that.
    Literally always cried, even when holo was on its peak of power and facerollness back then....But I think dev that main engi adds to it as well. Then we have another pseudo-expert that know Anet does what they want and dont listen anyone,except certain boostedsmith, because they have "ViSiOn"

  • Ansau.7326Ansau.7326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    I get your bitter you don't like their changes to Mesmer. What i don't get is that somehow you act like these changes are a surprise or they are unique. The fact is that these changes are happening all the time, in every balance patch to all classes. Haven't you been paying attention to how Anet changes the game for the last 7 years?

    It's not about what I or you think. It's not about how the players perceive their balance changes. It's about facts.
    There is nothing to like or dislike about a change being reverted months after being implemented. There is only the option to either evidence how clueless their balance is after such incomprehensive changes, or be as blind as them.
    There is nothing to comment on specifics of their balance patches, when on the description they set a path on how they want a class to be just to find later 2-3 nerfs contradicting that vision, or when they come up with "Purity of purpose" explanations that don't tell anything.

    Also good try calling me salty and biased, it gives you a lot of credit in this discussion when you clearly haven't followed me. I'm one of the supporters to clone death traits removal, and daze->stun conversion of Confounding Suggestions. They brought abusive mechanics that also didn't work well with mesmer theme (centered around shatters and having a lot of soft CC in exchange of lack of hard CC).

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2019

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    I get your bitter you don't like their changes to Mesmer. What i don't get is that somehow you act like these changes are a surprise or they are unique. The fact is that these changes are happening all the time, in every balance patch to all classes. Haven't you been paying attention to how Anet changes the game for the last 7 years?

    It's not about what I or you think. It's not about how the players perceive their balance changes. It's about facts.
    There is nothing to like or dislike about a change being reverted months after being implemented. There is only the option to either evidence how clueless their balance is after such incomprehensive changes, or be as blind as them.

    That's just your perspective ... there are other ways to think about this that don't cast Anet as incompetent ... you just don't want to consider them.

    Anet makes a change, if they like it, it stays. If it doesn't work they change it. You don't know what is happening at all on the Anet side. If your assumption is Anet is incompetent, then there isn't a reason for you to post and complain about it because you already don't think they can do anything correctly. In otherwords, if you are posting here and complaining, even YOU can't believe how your perceive them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    Anet has a vision. That must be the biggest joke this year.
    How can they have a vision if they don't even know the effect of their balance in advance as they dont do pretest?

    What makes you think they don't? You don't know that. You don't have a clue what they do. You're just being mega salty.

    If they do. And this is the quality of balance then that just makes the entire company completely incompetent.

    Also, is calling people salty and bitter the new " X main spotted" ?

    or it just means they have a different idea of what balanced is. Are people so presumptuous that they assume only what they think is relevant to how Anet should do things? Put those big egos away boys ... what you think does not affect how this game is developed.

    So they're just trolling us when they expressly invite feedback, or post a patch note preview in advance for community comment?

    Basically.
    What I have gotten from this is.
    Anet knows exactly what they are doing. So when they release something that is OP we should roll over and accept it cause Anet did it on purpose.
    If you can 4v1 someone. Obviously their is no point complaining about it. Anet did it on purpose.
    If as class underperfoms and is not viable. It's ok. Anet intended for the class to be useless.
    It's pointless to offer feedback,.
    You weren't meant to have fun anyway.

    :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
    I wonder if Obtena REALLY BELIEVE IN THAT

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    Chromomancer was designed to be a defensively orientated support spec. Mirage was designed to be a dps condition damage spec. Chronomancer massively out performs Mirage in dps on 75% of the raid bosses and in 95% of other PvE situations. Power GS Chronomancer is also far more deadly and lethal than mirage varients. That probably wasn't planned.

    Anet clearly has some overall philosophical goals. Like spellbreakers should be a top 1v1 spec. Necros and guardianss should team fight. But if you don't think wackamole and community feedback has a driving factor in balance you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at how impactful the Jawgeous rant was.

    You guys are in here venting and expressing ur opinions and ideas on the recent mesmer changes etc and being told what ur being told (not rehashing)but go to warrior section and see same person doing the same thing basically that u guys are with the class they play, but it's ok cuz they stated that its different cuz they kno how to give real feedback. Gues u guys dont so it's not ok lmao

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    Chromomancer was designed to be a defensively orientated support spec. Mirage was designed to be a dps condition damage spec. Chronomancer massively out performs Mirage in dps on 75% of the raid bosses and in 95% of other PvE situations. Power GS Chronomancer is also far more deadly and lethal than mirage varients. That probably wasn't planned.

    Anet clearly has some overall philosophical goals. Like spellbreakers should be a top 1v1 spec. Necros and guardianss should team fight. But if you don't think wackamole and community feedback has a driving factor in balance you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at how impactful the Jawgeous rant was.

    You guys are in here venting and expressing ur opinions and ideas on the recent mesmer changes etc and being told what ur being told (not rehashing)but go to warrior section and see same person doing the same thing basically that u guys are with the class they play, but it's ok cuz they stated that its different cuz they kno how to give real feedback. Gues u guys dont so it's not ok lmao

    I cant understand anything from this... Also you cant see much of threads "this change is nonsense blablabla" because mesmer playerbase either dead or just given up(because "knowledgable community" always crying, they manage to cry about focus offhand....somehow....)

  • MrPhantasia.5924MrPhantasia.5924 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    Chromomancer was designed to be a defensively orientated support spec. Mirage was designed to be a dps condition damage spec. Chronomancer massively out performs Mirage in dps on 75% of the raid bosses and in 95% of other PvE situations. Power GS Chronomancer is also far more deadly and lethal than mirage varients. That probably wasn't planned.

    Anet clearly has some overall philosophical goals. Like spellbreakers should be a top 1v1 spec. Necros and guardianss should team fight. But if you don't think wackamole and community feedback has a driving factor in balance you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at how impactful the Jawgeous rant was.

    You guys are in here venting and expressing ur opinions and ideas on the recent mesmer changes etc and being told what ur being told (not rehashing)but go to warrior section and see same person doing the same thing basically that u guys are with the class they play, but it's ok cuz they stated that its different cuz they kno how to give real feedback. Gues u guys dont so it's not ok lmao

    I cant understand anything from this... Also you cant see much of threads "this change is nonsense blablabla" because mesmer playerbase either dead or just given up(because "knowledgable community" always crying, they manage to cry about focus offhand....somehow....)

    Having a hard time parcing it myself as well.

    But I can tell you that the Rampage thread in the warrior section is leaded with tons of "Rampage is fine" and "Warrior is ONLY decent because of rampage" vs "Okay something is going to get hit on spellbreaker and we need to make sure it's the right nerfs that don't hurt the build but we won't really actually propose anything just any nerf suggestions people just are never 'the right way to nerf'"

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    Chromomancer was designed to be a defensively orientated support spec. Mirage was designed to be a dps condition damage spec. Chronomancer massively out performs Mirage in dps on 75% of the raid bosses and in 95% of other PvE situations. Power GS Chronomancer is also far more deadly and lethal than mirage varients. That probably wasn't planned.

    Anet clearly has some overall philosophical goals. Like spellbreakers should be a top 1v1 spec. Necros and guardianss should team fight. But if you don't think wackamole and community feedback has a driving factor in balance you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at how impactful the Jawgeous rant was.

    You guys are in here venting and expressing ur opinions and ideas on the recent mesmer changes etc and being told what ur being told (not rehashing)but go to warrior section and see same person doing the same thing basically that u guys are with the class they play, but it's ok cuz they stated that its different cuz they kno how to give real feedback. Gues u guys dont so it's not ok lmao

    I cant understand anything from this... Also you cant see much of threads "this change is nonsense blablabla" because mesmer playerbase either dead or just given up(because "knowledgable community" always crying, they manage to cry about focus offhand....somehow....)

    Having a hard time parcing it myself as well.

    But I can tell you that the Rampage thread in the warrior section is leaded with tons of "Rampage is fine" and "Warrior is ONLY decent because of rampage" vs "Okay something is going to get hit on spellbreaker and we need to make sure it's the right nerfs that don't hurt the build but we won't really actually propose anything just any nerf suggestions people just are never 'the right way to nerf'"

    Its alright to twoshot people from full health on 62s cd as rampage lasts 10s and cooldown background. But lets nerf mesmer like every patch until it would be close to unplayble :)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    Chromomancer was designed to be a defensively orientated support spec. Mirage was designed to be a dps condition damage spec. Chronomancer massively out performs Mirage in dps on 75% of the raid bosses and in 95% of other PvE situations. Power GS Chronomancer is also far more deadly and lethal than mirage varients. That probably wasn't planned.

    Anet clearly has some overall philosophical goals. Like spellbreakers should be a top 1v1 spec. Necros and guardianss should team fight. But if you don't think wackamole and community feedback has a driving factor in balance you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at how impactful the Jawgeous rant was.

    You guys are in here venting and expressing ur opinions and ideas on the recent mesmer changes etc and being told what ur being told (not rehashing)but go to warrior section and see same person doing the same thing basically that u guys are with the class they play, but it's ok cuz they stated that its different cuz they kno how to give real feedback. Gues u guys dont so it's not ok lmao

    I cant understand anything from this... Also you cant see much of threads "this change is nonsense blablabla" because mesmer playerbase either dead or just given up(because "knowledgable community" always crying, they manage to cry about focus offhand....somehow....)

    Having a hard time parcing it myself as well.

    But I can tell you that the Rampage thread in the warrior section is leaded with tons of "Rampage is fine" and "Warrior is ONLY decent because of rampage" vs "Okay something is going to get hit on spellbreaker and we need to make sure it's the right nerfs that don't hurt the build but we won't really actually propose anything just any nerf suggestions people just are never 'the right way to nerf'"

    I'm saying obtena is in alot of threads where players are not happy with changes to their class,whether their venting due to disagreeing with changes or discussions on how arenet could have made better changes or nerfed differently basically telling players just like in this very thread that community input had no bearing on arenets class changes; that arenet have a clear idea of what their doing when making balance changes/nerfs and that they are not bad at balancing or their nerfs are not poorly implemented just because the playerbase doesnt agree with what changes/nerfs they make to their own game.even arguing same thing u guys are in warclaw threads yet their in warrior threads etc doing the same thing regarding recent zerker changes and how he/she doesnt like the recent zerker changes or state its in. I'm guessing cuz they play the class. It has been proven many times in the past that a abundance of comnunity complaints about a certain spec or skill does have a impact on the future changes to the class being complained about and often times the nerfs are in fact implemented in a way that negatively effect other areas of a build or even other already weak areas of its other specs leaving long time players scratching there heads. I bet next balance patch sic em sees changes whether it should or not, same for holo.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    My necropinion on different shatters for different elites:

    HELL NO.

    Mesmers are difficult to deal with in pvp scenarios as is. Now among the sea of clones, phantasms, and blinks you expect me to take time figuring out which spec you are and which shatters to expect? When a necro uses shroud, you can see clear as day which spec he's running without any guesswork.

    Mesmers give 0 warnings regarding what shatter they are using already. When i see buncha clones run at me i don't know if they'll burst me to 0 health in 0.5s (hi legendary chronomancer in spvp arena), give me confusion stacks, daze me or make you invulnerable for 4s or so.

    If mesmers want more diversity, how about we start with it being clear and readable to their adversaries, before they're respawning at base.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Believe what you want ... if you think Anet doesn't have a plan they are implementing based on what they want to do, then you don't really know much to begin with.

    Chromomancer was designed to be a defensively orientated support spec. Mirage was designed to be a dps condition damage spec. DPS Chronomancer massively out performs Mirage in dps on 75% of the raid bosses and in 95% of other PvE situations. Power GS Chronomancer is also far more deadly and lethal than mirage variants in PvP as well. That probably wasn't planned.

    Anet clearly has some overall philosophical goals. Like spellbreakers should be a top 1v1 spec. Necros and guardians of all stripes should excel in team fights. But if you don't think wackamole the over performing spec and community feedback has a driving factor in balance you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at how impactful the Jawgeous rant was. That video literally single handedly commit to reworking all traits that improve shatters to only improve one shatter which means heavily nerfed effectiveness overall like we see with the new Blinding Dissipation.

    Edit: My post was originally made on a phone at work and was edited to be more clear in it's wording and intent.

    This is where I think you go a little off ... Nothing suggests that SB's being a top 1 vs. 1 spec is an overall philosophical goal Anet has ... same goes for what you said about Necros, Guardians, etc... you're just making that inference and making that correlation without knowing it's true. It's when you impose you own ideas on what Anet is doing when you go wrong with your conclusions about why they did this or that.

    As I said, when the community complains this much, they are bound to get it right once in a while. That's all you're seeing here. If Anet is so dedicated to creating a roadmap to changing the game because of players complaints ... how do you explain the current state of the game? That tells me that in the last 7 years that even though Anet is focused on developing classes based on addressing players complaints, they just can't do it. I know the reason why too ... What does that tell you about the value of using players complaints as a guideline for changing the game? It should tell you it's a waste of their time to try and chase all these diametrically opposing views of what the game should be.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    My necropinion on different shatters for different elites:

    HELL NO.

    Mesmers are difficult to deal with in pvp scenarios as is. Now among the sea of clones, phantasms, and blinks you expect me to take time figuring out which spec you are and which shatters to expect? When a necro uses shroud, you can see clear as day which spec he's running without any guesswork.

    ...You mean.....You still get confused as to what is or is not a clone?
    I wish I was stuck in 2012. Maybe I could invest in bitcoin before it exploded.
    On a serious note. If you still at this point in time can't tell what is a clone or phantasm and what isn't this is a you problem.
    Also a sea of blinks.....you mean the one blink.......
    A singular blink is too hard to manage I guess.

    Mesmers give 0 warnings regarding what shatter they are using already. When i see buncha clones run at me i don't know if they'll burst me to 0 health in 0.5s (hi legendary chronomancer in spvp arena), give me confusion stacks, daze me or make you invulnerable for 4s or so.

    Most people see clones run to them and dodge. Though you being a necro can simply kill them with your AoE's.

    You wouldn't happen to be an alt Account for Badmed?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2019

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:
    If you want to get technical Spellbreaker is explicitly designed to be an elite specialization that's both less offensive and more defensively orientated compared to standard warriors as well as extremely disruptive by canceling other profession's strengths such as eliminating their boons, conditions, stealth, projectiles, even their mobility, and is packing a a solid amount of interrupts. Which if you're going to emphasize A-Net's "vision" paints them as even bigger failures as all meta spellbreaker is at this point in Conquest is a 1vX build that ramps 25 might and chucks 10k crits out while having top tier mobility. The utilities and traits designed to cancel out other profession's strengths never lived up to their potential. Sometimes stuff like this pans out well design wise, sometimes it misses it's mark.

    When Spellbreaker is perhaps the purest example of a 1vX duelist and has been for almost 2 years straight now. And when arenanet in their reasoning for class changes explicitly mention being happy with spellbreakers and how they're performing, it's pretty safe to say they want them largely 1vXing.

    >
    I don't think that's a safe conclusion at all. Being happy with SB's only means one thing ... they aren't going to touch it ... until they decide to touch it again. This 'being happy with' has been the general case for Guardians for a LONG time but it doesn't have anything to do with some particular role that Guardians play in competetive aspects of the game. If you go further than the literal sense of that "being happy" statement, it's only because it suits your purpose to do so.

    Literally the first thing you see in character creation about the class when you make a new character. It's literally the thesis statement is how they intend for the classes to operate. Arenanet is very upfront about what they intend the professions to focus on and be capable of.

    Yes, those descriptors are good at saying generally what the classes are good at so people can choose a class that suits their playstyle. Again, I don't think that any player should think that in a competitive situation that's the best role those classes play. Guardians for the longest time were simply bunkers and they were horrible in the context of the team because they didn't add much to a team environment, yet they have been in a happy place for a long time. It's only recently that FB takes guardian class to it's rightful good team player position as the descriptor indicates.

    My point here is that we should be VERY careful about reading into things Anet is telling you and making conclusions like you have with SB because what could happen (which has lots in past) is that Anet can change something and SB won't be 1 vs. X anymore and you will be sitting there convinced they have lied to you because you inferred something they never explicitly stated.

    As i said, when the community complains this much, they are bound to get it right once in a while. That's all you're seeing here. If Anet is so dedicated to changing the game because of players complaints ... how do you explain the current state of the game? You're telling me that in the last 7 years that even though Anet is focused on addressing players complaints, they just can't do it? What does that tell you about the value of using players complaints as a guideline for changing the game?

    It tells me that, in their own words, "balance is a moving target" and that they know they have more work to do.

    I don't disagree with that ... they have only been balancing the game since it existed and I have no doubt it will continue until 'maintenance mode'. I'm not trying to indicate Anet is ever going to finish balancing but I am trying to make the point that their balance targets have nothing to do with the QQ du Jour like some people would indicate. If they coincide, it's not because Anet is incompetent and need hordes of angry players to give them feedback like some people would like to have us believe. That's just a completely ridiculous concept to start with.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    Mesmers give 0 warnings regarding what shatter they are using already. When i see buncha clones run at me i don't know if they'll burst me to 0 health in 0.5s (hi legendary chronomancer in spvp arena), give me confusion stacks, daze me or make you invulnerable for 4s or so.

    Most people see clones run to them and dodge. Though you being a necro can simply kill them with your AoE's.

    You wouldn't happen to be an alt Account for Badmed?

    Oh why didn't i think about this before? Oh wait...maybe because i'm a necro, the profession with worst amount of evades in whole game? Also cleaving? are you serious? If they run at me, no cleave will kill them before they get to me. And if i use it before they do, aren't I wasting precious skill on mesmer's clones?

  • Soulock.1752Soulock.1752 Member ✭✭

    Well, I'm happy with my Power Core Mesmer but will be nice to give me the option to swap out F2's Condi purpose to a Power or defensive purpose (1sec duration blind maybe?) But ya overall is okay.

  • MrPhantasia.5924MrPhantasia.5924 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    Mesmers give 0 warnings regarding what shatter they are using already. When i see buncha clones run at me i don't know if they'll burst me to 0 health in 0.5s (hi legendary chronomancer in spvp arena), give me confusion stacks, daze me or make you invulnerable for 4s or so.

    Most people see clones run to them and dodge. Though you being a necro can simply kill them with your AoE's.

    You wouldn't happen to be an alt Account for Badmed?

    Oh why didn't i think about this before? Oh wait...maybe because i'm a necro, the profession with worst amount of evades in whole game? Also cleaving? are you serious? If they run at me, no cleave will kill them before they get to me. And if i use it before they do, aren't I wasting precious skill on mesmer's clones?

    The only thing that should seriously frieghten you is when a mesmer uses the gs combo on you shotgun style point blank.

    If they're shattering at a distance, unless they have the Chrono trait that gives the super speed they should never reach you.

    You can literally kite them around. Go practice kiting champion mobs in central tyria. Its pretty easy to kite a base speed mob especially when it cant handle ports like spectal walk and flesh worm and jumping puzzles.

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Soulock.1752 said:
    Well, I'm happy with my Power Core Mesmer but will be nice to give me the option to swap out F2's Condi purpose to a Power or defensive purpose (1sec duration blind maybe?) But ya overall is okay.

    Well, I don't want to be the mesmer who say that they messed up chaos, basically mass invisibility is low cd and long duration when traited, I don't think going the stealth way is healthy for any game. (and because it is mesmer thing i don't think it is gonna stay long enough)

    In before someone comes and compare it with some other classes stealth, stealth is bad for any game (the long ones specially).
    Of course in some cases of complains, anet introduced the thief that you can see but you can't touch because of evade 24/7 you are lucky if you touched the thief, there are some things like shocking aura, but thats limited.

    That being said, in true fights that are more than 1vs1 etc core is not as good as the others, so far it is doing well because of stealth mostly, I have faced a condi mirage, he is not bad, but the reason for me for not being able to kill him is he is using chaos traitline and mass invisibility (trailblaizer/dire), 9seconds I can't get him for sure, but when i meet him with my holo friend, most of the time he will not do any good and probably die in the process of trying to run. The same will go for any mesmer that is relying on stealth.

    And if there is something that i missed in the video, sorry because it is long, I can't take my time to watch it all xD

  • Soulock.1752Soulock.1752 Member ✭✭

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Soulock.1752 said:
    Well, I'm happy with my Power Core Mesmer but will be nice to give me the option to swap out F2's Condi purpose to a Power or defensive purpose (1sec duration blind maybe?) But ya overall is okay.

    Well, I don't want to be the mesmer who say that they messed up chaos, basically mass invisibility is low cd and long duration when traited, I don't think going the stealth way is healthy for any game. (and because it is mesmer thing i don't think it is gonna stay long enough)

    In before someone comes and compare it with some other classes stealth, stealth is bad for any game (the long ones specially).
    Of course in some cases of complains, anet introduced the thief that you can see but you can't touch because of evade 24/7 you are lucky if you touched the thief, there are some things like shocking aura, but thats limited.

    That being said, in true fights that are more than 1vs1 etc core is not as good as the others, so far it is doing well because of stealth mostly, I have faced a condi mirage, he is not bad, but the reason for me for not being able to kill him is he is using chaos traitline and mass invisibility (trailblaizer/dire), 9seconds I can't get him for sure, but when i meet him with my holo friend, most of the time he will not do any good and probably die in the process of trying to run. The same will go for any mesmer that is relying on stealth.

    And if there is something that i missed in the video, sorry because it is long, I can't take my time to watch it all xD

    Is cool! Sorry if the video is long cause I haven't play much due to real life being a pain in the gucci 😅 so I made it up with this 4 video long worth of honest roaming + duels with mostly wins and few loses (no idea why some people assume I edited out loses when they haven't even finish watching 😐) if stealth is unhealthy for Mesmer... they should give us more utilities with mobility or better defensive options to trade off stealth which I doubt it will fix the problem and make things worst (making Condi Mirage more annoying to kill)

    English is not my Native Language so no worries 😅

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's one thing many need to consider before suggestions. "Is it reasonable in work load" and "can we reasonably expect it to not be a giant clownfiesta on arrival and completely ruin the game for 12 months before the balance team finally have the lucky 8 ball say nerf it"

    Realistically changing the shatters while nice leads to present problems with things like Master of Fragmentation, Bountiful Disillusionment and a few other select traits that buff or change specific shatters in ways. It also creates more work later as the shatters are different perhaps with different cool down etc.

    So I think while it would be nice to have different shatters it's a case of not likely to be worth the effort by in large.

    As for mesmer balance in general, it's a big sufferer of the way ANet balances which is they tone down and nerf everything but the problem first then nerf the problem so far below playable it has it's own level of hell. Elusive Mind is a good example of this and emphasises that they often nerf it in the wrong way.

    The entire class has another problem, singular skills that are insanely strong or unique that completely carry the class and once they're removed you realise just how bad the class actually is. A good example is Continuum Shift, in every single meta where chrono has been strong or had strong abilities this one skill has been able to blow it up to arm waving "ANET NERF THIIIIIISSS!!!!" proportions because of how it lets you double up on any set of skills for 1.5-6s and has probably caused more imbalance than any other skill in the game.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2019

    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2019

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:
    If you want to get technical Spellbreaker is explicitly designed to be an elite specialization that's both less offensive and more defensively orientated compared to standard warriors as well as extremely disruptive by canceling other profession's strengths such as eliminating their boons, conditions, stealth, projectiles, even their mobility, and is packing a a solid amount of interrupts. Which if you're going to emphasize A-Net's "vision" paints them as even bigger failures as all meta spellbreaker is at this point in Conquest is a 1vX build that ramps 25 might and chucks 10k crits out while having top tier mobility. The utilities and traits designed to cancel out other profession's strengths never lived up to their potential. Sometimes stuff like this pans out well design wise, sometimes it misses it's mark.

    When Spellbreaker is perhaps the purest example of a 1vX duelist and has been for almost 2 years straight now. And when arenanet in their reasoning for class changes explicitly mention being happy with spellbreakers and how they're performing, it's pretty safe to say they want them largely 1vXing.

    >
    I don't think that's a safe conclusion at all. Being happy with SB's only means one thing ... they aren't going to touch it ... until they decide to touch it again. This 'being happy with' has been the general case for Guardians for a LONG time but it doesn't have anything to do with some particular role that Guardians play in competetive aspects of the game. If you go further than the literal sense of that "being happy" statement, it's only because it suits your purpose to do so.

    Literally the first thing you see in character creation about the class when you make a new character. It's literally the thesis statement is how they intend for the classes to operate. Arenanet is very upfront about what they intend the professions to focus on and be capable of.

    Yes, those descriptors are good at saying generally what the classes are good at so people can choose a class that suits their playstyle. Again, I don't think that any player should think that in a competitive situation that's the best role those classes play. Guardians for the longest time were simply bunkers and they were horrible in the context of the team because they didn't add much to a team environment, yet they have been in a happy place for a long time. It's only recently that FB takes guardian class to it's rightful good team player position as the descriptor indicates.

    My point here is that we should be VERY careful about reading into things Anet is telling you and making conclusions like you have with SB because what could happen (which has lots in past) is that Anet can change something and SB won't be 1 vs. X anymore and you will be sitting there convinced they have lied to you because you inferred something they never explicitly stated.

    As i said, when the community complains this much, they are bound to get it right once in a while. That's all you're seeing here. If Anet is so dedicated to changing the game because of players complaints ... how do you explain the current state of the game? You're telling me that in the last 7 years that even though Anet is focused on addressing players complaints, they just can't do it? What does that tell you about the value of using players complaints as a guideline for changing the game?

    It tells me that, in their own words, "balance is a moving target" and that they know they have more work to do.

    I don't disagree with that ... they have only been balancing the game since it existed and I have no doubt it will continue until 'maintenance mode'. I'm not trying to indicate Anet is ever going to finish balancing but I am trying to make the point that their balance targets have nothing to do with the QQ du Jour like some people would indicate. If they coincide, it's not because Anet is incompetent and need hordes of angry players to give them feedback like some people would like to have us believe. That's just a completely ridiculous concept to start with.

    EZPZ Way To Understand Arenanet's Balance:

    • The phantasm update was Arenanet "Vision".
    • The 15 months of nerfs that fallowed were the direct results of what that vision had on competitive game modes performance wise and the player's reaction to it.

    Both aspects play a roll. I mean hell, we have direct confirmed communication from devs that some changes like Countless suggesting Axe Ambush should require facing the target, me suggesting distortion should trigger the ambush window resulting in the Desert Distortion trait being made. Or the Jawgeous Video being confirmed by been in discord having directly resulted in Arenanet looking at mesmer shatter traits and trying to make them have enhanced effectiveness while only augmenting one shatter.

    Both Anet Philosophy and player input have an impact on balance. Any argument otherwise ignores facts where both of these situations have been the case.

    "Your point is" you don't have a point. You're a contrarian, a person who perpetually does nothing but plays Devil's Advocate on the forums in every thread you participate in. You have no real opinions. You have no real thoughts or intelligent observations to make. You just come into threads with a deliberate contrarian opinion to rile up debate and I'm not interested.

    It's a good story, but it doesn't change what I posted in response to that other guy. For someone that isn't interested, you sure put down alot of words here.

    The fact is that Anet implements and changes as they go along. There isn't a test server here and even if there was, it wouldn't prove out the way things work anyways. The live server is the best place for changes to be tested because it's where players fully engage the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @MrPhantasia.5924 said:
    If you want to get technical Spellbreaker is explicitly designed to be an elite specialization that's both less offensive and more defensively orientated compared to standard warriors as well as extremely disruptive by canceling other profession's strengths such as eliminating their boons, conditions, stealth, projectiles, even their mobility, and is packing a a solid amount of interrupts. Which if you're going to emphasize A-Net's "vision" paints them as even bigger failures as all meta spellbreaker is at this point in Conquest is a 1vX build that ramps 25 might and chucks 10k crits out while having top tier mobility. The utilities and traits designed to cancel out other profession's strengths never lived up to their potential. Sometimes stuff like this pans out well design wise, sometimes it misses it's mark.

    When Spellbreaker is perhaps the purest example of a 1vX duelist and has been for almost 2 years straight now. And when arenanet in their reasoning for class changes explicitly mention being happy with spellbreakers and how they're performing, it's pretty safe to say they want them largely 1vXing.

    >
    I don't think that's a safe conclusion at all. Being happy with SB's only means one thing ... they aren't going to touch it ... until they decide to touch it again. This 'being happy with' has been the general case for Guardians for a LONG time but it doesn't have anything to do with some particular role that Guardians play in competetive aspects of the game. If you go further than the literal sense of that "being happy" statement, it's only because it suits your purpose to do so.

    Literally the first thing you see in character creation about the class when you make a new character. It's literally the thesis statement is how they intend for the classes to operate. Arenanet is very upfront about what they intend the professions to focus on and be capable of.

    Yes, those descriptors are good at saying generally what the classes are good at so people can choose a class that suits their playstyle. Again, I don't think that any player should think that in a competitive situation that's the best role those classes play. Guardians for the longest time were simply bunkers and they were horrible in the context of the team because they didn't add much to a team environment, yet they have been in a happy place for a long time. It's only recently that FB takes guardian class to it's rightful good team player position as the descriptor indicates.

    My point here is that we should be VERY careful about reading into things Anet is telling you and making conclusions like you have with SB because what could happen (which has lots in past) is that Anet can change something and SB won't be 1 vs. X anymore and you will be sitting there convinced they have lied to you because you inferred something they never explicitly stated.

    As i said, when the community complains this much, they are bound to get it right once in a while. That's all you're seeing here. If Anet is so dedicated to changing the game because of players complaints ... how do you explain the current state of the game? You're telling me that in the last 7 years that even though Anet is focused on addressing players complaints, they just can't do it? What does that tell you about the value of using players complaints as a guideline for changing the game?

    It tells me that, in their own words, "balance is a moving target" and that they know they have more work to do.

    I don't disagree with that ... they have only been balancing the game since it existed and I have no doubt it will continue until 'maintenance mode'. I'm not trying to indicate Anet is ever going to finish balancing but I am trying to make the point that their balance targets have nothing to do with the QQ du Jour like some people would indicate. If they coincide, it's not because Anet is incompetent and need hordes of angry players to give them feedback like some people would like to have us believe. That's just a completely ridiculous concept to start with.

    EZPZ Way To Understand Arenanet's Balance:

    • The phantasm update was Arenanet "Vision".
    • The 15 months of nerfs that fallowed were the direct results of what that vision had on competitive game modes performance wise and the player's reaction to it.

    Both aspects play a roll. I mean hell, we have direct confirmed communication from devs that some changes like Countless suggesting Axe Ambush should require facing the target, me suggesting distortion should trigger the ambush window resulting in the Desert Distortion trait being made. Or the Jawgeous Video being confirmed by been in discord having directly resulted in Arenanet looking at mesmer shatter traits and trying to make them have enhanced effectiveness while only augmenting one shatter.

    Both Anet Philosophy and player input have an impact on balance. Any argument otherwise ignores facts where both of these situations have been the case.

    "Your point is" you don't have a point. You're a contrarian, a person who perpetually does nothing but plays Devil's Advocate on the forums in every thread you participate in. You have no real opinions. You have no real thoughts or intelligent observations to make. You just come into threads with a deliberate contrarian opinion to rile up debate and I'm not interested.

    It's a good story, but it doesn't change what I posted in response to that other guy. For someone that isn't interested, you sure put down alot of words here.

    The fact is that Anet implements and changes as they go along. There isn't a test server here and even if there was, it wouldn't prove out the way things work anyways. The live server is the best place for changes to be tested because it's where players fully engage the game.

    This is literally a nonsequitor that has nothing to do with the conversation.

    Then i guess it's a good fit to your previous post :wink:

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 😖
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 >_<.
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    It's a choice of preference. I and many others with many more returning players including increasingly more new players prefers Guild Wars healthy-fun competitive effort-skill play pace instead of Guild Wars 2 pace approach where whoever can spam the most toxic skills with abusing bad design mechanic wins.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 😖
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    I get what you mean but the slower pace is correlated to the tactical aspect.
    GW2 is more of an hack and slash type of gameplay than rpg. Every profession, skill and trait lack identity, to add to this every skill has a safety net attached to it, there's no risk imbued into them.
    Professions have no synergy whatsoever, it's more of a single player game in a mmo setting (combos are just a poor excuse of synergy).
    These are all present in gw1, hence why most veterans praise gw1 combat.

    As for mesmer in particular, apharma explained it really well. Mesmer was a beast in pvp.
    Just reading gw wiki skills shows how powerful and annoying it was.

    The degenerate

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.