Support firebrand; a discussion

Anybody have any thoughts on this? Build: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_FirebrandAnytime a roaming squad (3 or less) comes across this build in a comp of 3 or so, they cannot be killed. If by some miracle you are able to get one of them into downstate, its practically an instant revive.

I was hesitant to make a thread talking about this build until one of my squad mates decided to drop 300 gold and build this using full ascended. Any players we come across unless they outnumber us by at least 2 cannot down any of us. As a dead eye I can kneel in the same spot and survive their full rotations as long as our firebrand is on top of me.

If we encounter another group running their own support firebrand meta battle copy paste, then the fight only ends when both teams have enough and sheath their weapons.This is the only support build that we've found this to be the case. Every other support build does not feel like it comes close to the amount of broad support this build brings.

Now I'm not crying nerf here, I just want to hear how other players deal with this build. Because since one of our 3rd started running it, any team (until it becomes 3v5 or 3v6 etc) we come across that isn't running their own support firebrand is a steamroll victory.

Feels way too build oriented to me with skill and ability taking a back seat.

But I'm very open to what the community thinks, cause I've only come back to the game in the past month so perhaps there's a counter that I've missed.

All you need is soulbeast really. Guard has strong defense because of burst heals, stability and blocks. Soulbeast can kill guard before he even realizes that he's being killed, however it's safer when you wait a few skills to be used first.

Other than that, a beefy "frontline" is good for distraction and cleave, like spb and holo. Having a necro+healer is also a decent choice.

@"Doug.4930" said:Anybody have any thoughts on this? Build: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_FirebrandAnytime a roaming squad (3 or less) comes across this build in a comp of 3 or so, they cannot be killed. If by some miracle you are able to get one of them into downstate, its practically an instant revive.

I was hesitant to make a thread talking about this build until one of my squad mates decided to drop 300 gold and build this using full ascended. Any players we come across unless they outnumber us by at least 2 cannot down any of us. As a dead eye I can kneel in the same spot and survive their full rotations as long as our firebrand is on top of me.

If we encounter another group running their own support firebrand meta battle copy paste, then the fight only ends when both teams have enough and sheath their weapons.This is the only support build that we've found this to be the case. Every other support build does not feel like it comes close to the amount of broad support this build brings.

Now I'm not crying nerf here, I just want to hear how other players deal with this build. Because since one of our 3rd started running it, any team (until it becomes 3v5 or 3v6 etc) we come across that isn't running their own support firebrand is a steamroll victory.

Feels way too build oriented to me with skill and ability taking a back seat.

But I'm very open to what the community thinks, cause I've only come back to the game in the past month so perhaps there's a counter that I've missed.

it's not a big issue, unfortunately. you just didn't meet the counter to your group. = rangers, warriors, engies. :)

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:Anybody have any thoughts on this? Build:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_Firebrand

Anytime a roaming squad (3 or less) comes across this build in a comp of 3 or so, they cannot be killed. If by some miracle you are able to get one of them into downstate, its practically an instant revive.

I was hesitant to make a thread talking about this build until one of my squad mates decided to drop 300 gold and build this using full ascended. Any players we come across unless they outnumber us by at least 2 cannot down any of us. As a dead eye I can kneel in the same spot and survive their full rotations as long as our firebrand is on top of me.

If we encounter another group running their own support firebrand meta battle copy paste, then the fight only ends when both teams have enough and sheath their weapons.This is the only support build that we've found this to be the case. Every other support build does not feel like it comes close to the amount of broad support this build brings.

Now I'm not crying nerf here, I just want to hear how other players deal with this build. Because since one of our 3rd started running it, any team (until it becomes 3v5 or 3v6 etc) we come across that isn't running their own support firebrand is a steamroll victory.

Feels way too build oriented to me with skill and ability taking a back seat.

But I'm very open to what the community thinks, cause I've only come back to the game in the past month so perhaps there's a counter that I've missed.

Oh we met a few, But wouldn't just putting a shield on counter the soul beast? As for the other 2, what in particular can they do against a fire brand to bring it down more effectively than other classes? Also, is it smarter to focus the fire brand in these sorts of fights? Finally even encountering all 3 of those classes is still a steamroll victory unless they also came with their own fire brand.

This is PvP 101.

First focus any scourges, then focus and single out any firebrand. If you leave it alone it will have no issue healing everyone else, but if pressured they will start to waste important cooldowns and trait procs.

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Anybody have any thoughts on this? Build:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_Firebrand

Anytime a roaming squad (3 or less) comes across this build in a comp of 3 or so, they cannot be killed. If by some miracle you are able to get one of them into downstate, its practically an instant revive.

I was hesitant to make a thread talking about this build until one of my squad mates decided to drop 300 gold and build this using full ascended. Any players we come across unless they outnumber us by at least 2 cannot down any of us. As a dead eye I can kneel in the same spot and survive their full rotations as long as our firebrand is on top of me.

If we encounter another group running their own support firebrand meta battle copy paste, then the fight only ends when both teams have enough and sheath their weapons.This is the only support build that we've found this to be the case. Every other support build does not feel like it comes close to the amount of broad support this build brings.

Now I'm not crying nerf here, I just want to hear how other players deal with this build. Because since one of our 3rd started running it, any team (until it becomes 3v5 or 3v6 etc) we come across that isn't running their own support firebrand is a steamroll victory.

Feels way too build oriented to me with skill and ability taking a back seat.

But I'm very open to what the community thinks, cause I've only come back to the game in the past month so perhaps there's a counter that I've missed.

well not really. taking out the softies would be the first. like if we fought a boon group whos just ok, taking out their scourges helps kill them.

fbs would probably be the last thing to hit. but we dont do 3v3 a lot since we are also all tanks. @.@

i can imagine 3 zerker revs geared good could give your team a hard time if they are good roamers. 3 zerk wars could too.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Anybody have any thoughts on this? Build:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_Firebrand

Anytime a roaming squad (3 or less) comes across this build in a comp of 3 or so, they cannot be killed. If by some miracle you are able to get one of them into downstate, its practically an instant revive.

I was hesitant to make a thread talking about this build until one of my squad mates decided to drop 300 gold and build this using full ascended. Any players we come across unless they outnumber us by at least 2 cannot down any of us. As a dead eye I can kneel in the same spot and survive their full rotations as long as our firebrand is on top of me.

If we encounter another group running their own support firebrand meta battle copy paste, then the fight only ends when both teams have enough and sheath their weapons.This is the only support build that we've found this to be the case. Every other support build does not feel like it comes close to the amount of broad support this build brings.

Now I'm not crying nerf here, I just want to hear how other players deal with this build. Because since one of our 3rd started running it, any team (until it becomes 3v5 or 3v6 etc) we come across that isn't running their own support firebrand is a steamroll victory.

Feels way too build oriented to me with skill and ability taking a back seat.

But I'm very open to what the community thinks, cause I've only come back to the game in the past month so perhaps there's a counter that I've missed.

Possibly, although I've found since coming back that with the current power creep its really quite easy to burst down any glass cannon builds before they have time to react, with the exception being classes with passive invuln procs like soul beasts.

If you are against a healer and a dPS, always pressure the dPS...not only do you relieve yourself of pressure but now ur applying pressure to the healer and dPS as well.

This allows me to 1vX even on a class like reaper.

If you focus the healer, especially a tanky firebrand, you get freecasted and could become a problem for you if you can’t burst the healer dead in time.

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Anybody have any thoughts on this? Build:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_Firebrand

Anytime a roaming squad (3 or less) comes across this build in a comp of 3 or so, they cannot be killed. If by some miracle you are able to get one of them into downstate, its practically an instant revive.

I was hesitant to make a thread talking about this build until one of my squad mates decided to drop 300 gold and build this using full ascended. Any players we come across unless they outnumber us by at least 2 cannot down any of us. As a dead eye I can kneel in the same spot and survive their full rotations as long as our firebrand is on top of me.

If we encounter another group running their own support firebrand meta battle copy paste, then the fight only ends when both teams have enough and sheath their weapons.This is the only support build that we've found this to be the case. Every other support build does not feel like it comes close to the amount of broad support this build brings.

Now I'm not crying nerf here, I just want to hear how other players deal with this build. Because since one of our 3rd started running it, any team (until it becomes 3v5 or 3v6 etc) we come across that isn't running their own support firebrand is a steamroll victory.

Feels way too build oriented to me with skill and ability taking a back seat.

But I'm very open to what the community thinks, cause I've only come back to the game in the past month so perhaps there's a counter that I've missed.

or warrior. =)

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:If you are against a healer and a dPS, always pressure the dPS...not only do you relieve yourself of pressure but now ur applying pressure to the healer and dPS as well.

This allows me to 1vX even on a class like reaper.

If you focus the healer, especially a tanky firebrand, you get freecasted and could become a problem for you if you can’t burst the healer dead in time.

this. =) squishy first.

If the Firebrand plays very well then it's nearly unkillable, but that's not the merit of the build. Same is true for any class & build if played by someone who masters it (this rarely happen though), especially in groups knowing what each other can give.

If the Firebrand it's not quite good, it's very easy to kill it (kill it first, always kill the worse player), otherwise kill all others in group and leave the Firebrand last: don't mistake it for a healer, it's far more than that; it's almost a tank (and first focusing the tank is stupid), it's an excellent buff class, has good heals as well but never look at it as a healer - because without the preventive buffs mantained couldn't heal enough to keep others alive, and surprise: it's also a decent damage class (even in full Minstrel and full defensive mode) if knows what and how (retaliation, burn, reflect, and so on, small but constant damage pressure which can even spike to contribute to the burst of the group at the right moment).

Support Firebrand is quite OP IF played by a very good player, but which class isn't in that case? Still, has many weak points, which can lead to quick death if not careful; giving and maintaining the proper buffs is essential, and dodging isn't just to give heals. Requires thinking ahead and being quicker than the attacker; only being preventive and having very quick reactions can make the Firebrand keep others alive, otherwise will run out of useful cooldowns and won't be able to help anymore.

its over tuned but it has to be in this meta.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:If you are against a healer and a dPS, always pressure the dPS...not only do you relieve yourself of pressure but now ur applying pressure to the healer and dPS as well.

This allows me to 1vX even on a class like reaper.

If you focus the healer, especially a tanky firebrand, you get freecasted and could become a problem for you if you can’t burst the healer dead in time.

I’ll even nuisance this by adding that, if you apply pressure to a dPS, and then At some point in the fight you quickly switch to the healer for a burst, you can also win the 1vX situation. Since healer have to blow their cooldowns to heal a pressured DPS there will be at some point in the fight where the healer won’t be able to heal themselves.

Just get scourge, get corrupts, keep corrupting stab, keep pressuring FB, win.

I think another symptom is I so very rarely see any other variant of support, its always the exact same cookie cutter build thats linked in the title of this thread.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:If you are against a healer and a dPS, always pressure the dPS...not only do you relieve yourself of pressure but now ur applying pressure to the healer and dPS as well.

This allows me to 1vX even on a class like reaper.

If you focus the healer, especially a tanky firebrand, you get freecasted and could become a problem for you if you can’t burst the healer dead in time.

I would have to see a clip of that, surely only a soul beast could apply enough dps to down one of them? When we test this build even with 2 dps classes focusing a target that was with our firebrand they could only get it to around 40% if they landed every single skill, only for it to be healed to full instantly.

@Doug.4930 said:I think another symptom is I so very rarely see any other variant of support, its always the exact same cookie cutter build thats linked in the title of this thread.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:If you are against a healer and a dPS, always pressure the dPS...not only do you relieve yourself of pressure but now ur applying pressure to the healer and dPS as well.

This allows me to 1vX even on a class like reaper.

If you focus the healer, especially a tanky firebrand, you get freecasted and could become a problem for you if you can’t burst the healer dead in time.

I mean, i don't have clips of my personal game play. But i will show you a clip from someone i actually just fought today who is a really good necro roamer. Spell does exactly what i mentioned above at 3:30 by first damaging a squishy DPS, then he does some pressure to the firebrand, then returns to DPS'ing the next damage dealer. Towards the end of that fight, the firebrand starts running away before Spell comits to killing him, but if spell wanted to continue a chase, he could have easily burned him down.

Keep in mind that the engagement starts out as a 2v3

I feel like it's probably more meta in large group fights, but a build with a very high capacity for boon strips and corrupts will completely shut down a healing/bunker guard, such as a curses/condi scourge. Firebrand relies on protection, aegis, stability, etc. as a buffer for the healing to actually be effective against burst, hence why they seem unkillable. The blocks, high damage reduction, and stability will cause one or more glass cannon players to use up most of their rotation and cooldowns enough so that a counter burst from your team can decisively win the team fight. Shutting down that buffer would easily be enough to burst through any amount of healing a FB can output. Coordinated heavy CC and high damage (literally baseline for any roaming dps classes) will absolutely devastate any team whose FB is being locked down with corrupts and strips, especially if the group is overly relying on the healing and boons to come through.

Even though you phrased it as a discussion and underlined that it's not a complaint, the substance of the original post does not open up for much discussion and seems quite alot like a complaint.

If you're having trouble with Firebrands in a 3v1 that is a you-issue and not a class/trait issue.

As for Firebrands' popularity overall (or Guardians historically) it is entirely down to stability. Stability may not be all the class provides but it is the one thing that keeps the class popular among support options. The best way to adress that is to make stability less mandatory because the class will remain very popular for as long as the game essentially becomes unplayable without stability. Nobody likes chain-CC or unintended asura-ball flipper games. Even with Firebrands balanced as they are, the game is still tilted towards overbearing CC and dying from not getting to control your character or not having sufficient buttons to press towards that end. If they would build in more CC counters (like breaks adding some sort of reveal-effect with control immunity for a few seconds after) then stability wouldn't be essential and nore would Firebrands.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:Even though you phrased it as a discussion and underlined that it's not a complaint, the substance of the original post does not open up for much discussion and seems quite alot like a complaint.

Perhaps, I am trying to remain impartial, however I can't help seeing a lot of firebrands in WvW and very few alternative support classes.

If you're having trouble with Firebrands in a 3v1 that is a you-issue and not a class/trait issue.

Not just having trouble, the difference when a group is running this build and when they are not is considerable. Vice Versa when my friends and I have this build in our squad it feels like we become unkillable. A team that was giving us trouble is now a steamroll victory when we have a firebrand and they don't.Why would anyone ever run any other support build? My problem isn't with just the class, but with that exact build I linked in the first post. EVERYBODY is running it on a firebrand. Monk runes and all.

a more op setup would be support fb supported by support rev :P their burst heals is nom nom nom

@Sovereign.1093 said:a more op setup would be support fb supported by support rev :P their burst heals is nom nom nom

Or just 2 support firebrands hahahaha

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:a more op setup would be support fb supported by support rev :P their burst heals is nom nom nom

wont be as effecient =fb scrapperfb revfb scourge

these three can be good support with each bringing something in the battle. =)

2 fbs ofcourse are great but the exchange is over bunker. and unless in the big fights you are atleast 20 you will have problems with fast paced zerk revs who are coordinated and can deliver 10 cor at the same time =)

It can be hampered greatly whenever the party doesn't stack together, due to the short range of buffs. So against not good groups, you just need to kite and pressure a single target, and if they panic and start running around like a headless chicken or try to yolo you, you're golden. But most people just charge at you, so it's easy to afk and sustain it.

Of course, the Firebrand bringing heals and stability is just one part of the equation. There's also something really annoying they can do. (hint: try Stalwart Speed)

Remove boon is a necessity, corrupt boon is a great luxury. Without those you need a heavy sustain to deal with them. Or you can roam with 2 Soulbeasts and pewpew them down (unblockables are also good in that).

@Doug.4930 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:Even though you phrased it as a discussion and underlined that it's not a complaint, the substance of the original post does not open up for much discussion and seems quite alot like a complaint.

Because Firebrand, as mentioned earlier, makes up the core of any support or group play currently, mainly due to their vast amount of stability.

Static guild groups run 2 suports per group. Obviously the first is always a Firebrand since no matter how much heal you have, if your group gets torn appart in the first engage (which it will without stability), you lose.

Firebrand translates very well into small scale fights due to two boons: protection and stability. If you engage a group support by a Firebrand and have no boon removal, you are essentially doing less damage andyour cc is useless, on top of everything else the Firebrand does (condi remove, heal, quickness, etc.).

@Doug.4930 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:If you're having trouble with Firebrands in a 3v1 that is a you-issue and not a class/trait issue.

Yes, people are running the most powerful build available. Who would have guessed.... Oh wait, everyone for decades and ages.

As mentioned, other support builds come in AFTER the Firebrand is present and do other things way better compared to the Firebrand. It's just that Firebrand provides the most meat and most important first support.