The new shatters, in numbers — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The new shatters, in numbers

Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 17, 2019 in Mesmer

Alrighty, time for a bit of comparison between vanilla shatters and the chrono shatters.

Mind Wrack
Skill Coefficients Listed
Clone # || Pre-patch Vanilla || Vanilla || Chrono || Chrono vs Slow
0 clones || 1.15 || 1.15 || 0 || 0
1 clone || 2.3 || 2.3 || 1.15 || 1.53
2 clones || 2.76 || 2.4 || 1.6 || 2.13
3 clones || 3.22 || 2.8 || 2.1 || 2.793

Prior to this patch, mind wrack deviated from tooltip damage at higher numbers of clones, resulting in a damage boost. There was an undocumented change that removed that damage boost, reducing the damage of all mind wrack shatters. Additionally, the chrono version of the shatter is weaker at all numbers of clones except a full 3-clone shatter with slow. If the target does not have slow, it will be drastically weaker at all clone levels.

Cry of Frustration
Theoretical Confusion stacks per second
Clone # || Vanilla || Chrono
0 clones || .04 || 0
1 clone || .08 || .05
2 clones || .12 || .13
3 clones || .16 || .3

The vanilla cry of frustration is slightly stronger or slightly weaker than the chrono version at 1 and 2 clones, and obviously superior with 0 clones. However, the chrono version is drastically stronger when using exclusively 3-clone shatters. The addition of alacrity and traiting illusions for lower cooldowns pushes this more in favor of the chrono version. However, the existence of mirage means that chrono still will be a substantially less effective condition setup.

Summary
It's trash.

Edited mind wrack summary and table based on some additional testing I did on a hunch

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Comments

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    Wondering if the unlisted 15% dmg of 2/3 clone Mind Wrack carried over; if so, 3 clone w/ slow Split Second would be equal, but only just :confused:.

    Why nerf the weaker variant of chrono but then leave the overperforming and mostly raid-restricted one as is?

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Wondering if the unlisted 15% dmg of 2/3 clone Mind Wrack carried over; if so, 3 clone w/ slow Split Second would be equal, but only just :confused:.

    Why nerf the weaker variant of chrono but then leave the overperforming and mostly raid-restricted one as is?

    I actually just retested that, because I had a hunch that they may have fixed that too. They did.

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  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    I told myself this morning that i might still finish unlocking my skyscale before i quit. Not so sure any more.

    I only recently came back so adjusting to the survivability nerf from the loss of permanent phantasms and their synergies has been rough and as soon as I get the hang again they nerfed my main to the ground.

    I might still grab the daily login rewards in case this is a joke.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    Prior to this patch, mind wrack deviated from tooltip damage at higher numbers of clones, resulting in a damage boost. There was an undocumented change that removed that damage boost, reducing the damage of all mind wrack shatters.

    Oh come on.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    Oof f for chrono.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    Prior to this patch, mind wrack deviated from tooltip damage at higher numbers of clones, resulting in a damage boost. There was an undocumented change that removed that damage boost, reducing the damage of all mind wrack shatters.

    Edited mind wrack summary and table based on some additional testing I did on a hunch

    Apparently somebody ignored this and continued to add the 15% deviation to the Split Second (skill) page on gw2 wiki.

    Would be nice if anet actually clarified what actual numbers are being used, rather than leaving either the deviation or the change undocumented.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    In terms of raw confusion/second yes, but that's meaningless anyway. The comparison between Chrono and vanilla remain accurate, and I mention the effect that traiting illusions and gaining alacrity has.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    In terms of raw confusion/second yes, but that's meaningless anyway. The comparison between Chrono and vanilla remain accurate, and I mention the effect that traiting illusions and gaining alacrity has.

    why is it meaningless?

    Te lazla otstra.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    In terms of raw confusion/second yes, but that's meaningless anyway. The comparison between Chrono and vanilla remain accurate, and I mention the effect that traiting illusions and gaining alacrity has.

    If anything, in fact, that observation puts the advantage in the core mesmer - a core mesmer is more likely to be able to fit in Illusions without missing out on another traitline.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    That's really disappointing to see.

    I had hoped Split Second with 3 clones would actually deal a bit more damage with slow than Mind Wrack with 3 clones.

    They really just wanted to beat a class that was already down, didn't they.

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    That's really disappointing to see.

    I had hoped Split Second with 3 clones would actually deal a bit more damage with slow than Mind Wrack with 3 clones.

    They really just wanted to beat a class that was already down, didn't they.

    Yep. The self-shatter on core outweighs the measly 33% required with Slow.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    In terms of raw confusion/second yes, but that's meaningless anyway. The comparison between Chrono and vanilla remain accurate, and I mention the effect that traiting illusions and gaining alacrity has.

    why is it meaningless?

    Because it doesn't say anything on its own. You'd need to combine it with actual rotation, condition damage, condition duration, and associated condition application from weapon skills for it to have actual meaning. I referenced that with my comment about mirage, but this is simply intended to show a comparison between the shatters, not a wholistic assessment of class capability.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    In terms of raw confusion/second yes, but that's meaningless anyway. The comparison between Chrono and vanilla remain accurate, and I mention the effect that traiting illusions and gaining alacrity has.

    why is it meaningless?

    Because it doesn't say anything on its own. You'd need to combine it with actual rotation, condition damage, condition duration, and associated condition application from weapon skills for it to have actual meaning. I referenced that with my comment about mirage, but this is simply intended to show a comparison between the shatters, not a wholistic assessment of class capability.

    isn't that what "theoretical confusion stacks per second" is all about?
    if you want to compare the two at face value, go right ahead, but when you inject that word in there and don't actually do all the maths you are misleading a lot of people. even if you did compare the two at face value its still pretty dishonest since traiting for rewinder makes that argument false.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    In terms of raw confusion/second yes, but that's meaningless anyway. The comparison between Chrono and vanilla remain accurate, and I mention the effect that traiting illusions and gaining alacrity has.

    why is it meaningless?

    Because it doesn't say anything on its own. You'd need to combine it with actual rotation, condition damage, condition duration, and associated condition application from weapon skills for it to have actual meaning. I referenced that with my comment about mirage, but this is simply intended to show a comparison between the shatters, not a wholistic assessment of class capability.

    isn't that what "theoretical confusion stacks per second" is all about?
    if you want to compare the two at face value, go right ahead, but when you inject that word in there and don't actually do all the maths you are misleading a lot of people. even if you did compare the two at face value its still pretty dishonest since traiting for rewinder makes that argument false.

    I think I'll just answer with: no, that's not what it's about, and I feel it's explained fairly sufficiently.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    I think I'll just answer with: no, that's not what it's about, and I feel it's explained fairly sufficiently.

    well, maybe i'm missing something obvious here, but if i'm not then you're beating the victim drum pretty furiously. good luck.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Umadusa.5874Umadusa.5874 Member ✭✭

    I love the new chrono shatters. It's much more theme-appropriate and cohesive. They just need to take off the limitations of the shatters not affecting the player, and needing clones to use them.

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Umadusa.5874 said:
    I love the new chrono shatters. It's much more theme-appropriate and cohesive. They just need to take off the limitations of the shatters not affecting the player, and needing clones to use them.

    Yeah, it'd be worth playing in all game modes again if IP is given back.
    Distortion is still a bit of a loss but that'd be a better trade-off than losing that and IP and the undocumented damage nerf to F1 (what a trifecta!)

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    if you trait for shatters, your numbers are waaaay off for rewinder confusion spam.

    They are not. As already mentioned, mirage is far more effective in PvP. Relying heavily on shatter for condi damage dealing is not reliable against none NPC opponents at all.

    In PvE, the comparison is probably going to fall between condi mirage running scepter and mirage/illusions/dueling and chrono running the same (chrono instead of mirage). You are giving up ambush and reliability of dealing damage at range for shattering. Even if chrono, theoretically can put more confusion on the target, you have to consider that you are losing reliability. And honestly, axe mirage/chaos/dueling is better than either in most situations, since there is less setup and less reliance on confusion.

    In my opinion, if you are going condi, mirage is much better off in every game mode.

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    Chrono can throw out a lot of confusion, yes. That is true if you're up against a stationary dummy. It'd definitely perform well. But if you're up against other professions out to kill you, you're lucky to get out a few Rewinders and then realize they have condi clear and you're completely useless and defenseless.
    Mirage is at least distracting and has CI and AA which dishes out a lot of condi pressure to take out most classes with ease.
    Condi chrono feels like an alpha version of an early release game. It feels incredibly unfinished right now. Either that or like ANet ripped out its soul and fed it to the lions.

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