Nerf condi thief — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Nerf condi thief

Bazooka.3590Bazooka.3590 Member ✭✭✭

for good

Comments

  • In my opinion, adding an icd of around 6-15 seconds (roughly) on immobilise proccing poison via panic strike would be enough to dissuade the constant sword 2 spam while also preserving the strength of the build outside of spamming one ability. This change would also not hurt power s/d too much.

  • Did a thief kill u? Lol

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    What is the issue? The condition damage? The amount of CC? Stealth? A combination of those?
    Which skills are problematics? Which traits are problematics?
    Is it related to initiative? Is it related to endurance?

    Give some explanations please.

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Doto.6357 said:
    In my opinion, adding an icd of around 6-15 seconds (roughly) on immobilise proccing poison via panic strike would be enough to dissuade the constant sword 2 spam while also preserving the strength of the build outside of spamming one ability. This change would also not hurt power s/d too much.

    Or adjust the trait to apply the poison specifically on pistol 2 instead of any immob in general.

    I feel like that was the goal, adding poison to pistol which is a condi weapon and has spammable immob on skill 2, but they forgot that sword also had a spammable immob so now nobody plays pistol.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    the 'problem' is that a power weapon set is generating so many condis. There are very few abilities a condi thief uses that have a tell because most of the passives will trigger off conditions that can be generated by multiple abilities. Where most classes have specific abilities you can dodge, thief... well you have to avoid everything.

    Imo, this is fine due to thief natural lack of durability. However, the problem is STILL dagger storm. Long duration invulnerability kind of negates the problems of a class whose weakness is related to durability. It also allows condi thief to stay in combat, procing more condis off passives and letting the condi ticks to progress.

  • DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    I didnt realise how powerful the Poison stacks were till the other day from Dead eye, just getting marked alone can take you to 50% HP if you've run out of Condi clenses.
    I did meet one Deadeye who was able to quickly stack up 16 stacks of poison onto you, with other cover conditions which rapidly kills the oposition player.

    I can not stress this enough, condition damage style play makes pvp boring, dull and not fun. If something is not addressed with condition damage's dominance when it comes to cheese, PvP will lose its already dying appeal .

  • @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • sounds like a D/D or S/D thief smoked him and he cant come up with a counter with his class to beat them. Maybe you should learn thief and what the strong/weak points are in the class. Instead of coming onto the forums and crying about it.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741

    S/D is common but not the only viable build. What you described can be stopped by a single major cleanse. Then, because you know they are there and targeting you, use active defensive skills and, as you mentioned, forcing them to spend initiative on defense themselves.

    You can also kite away from the wall they are teleporting behind from. This limits the range of their return and forces them to pick a different target if they want to keep abusing the LoS advantage from Sword 2.

    You can also, knowing that they are coming after you, but unable to see you well from behind the wall, lay down traps/large AoE skills because you know they are coming back to you.

    It’s not that hard to shut this down compared to many other builds.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    Any aoe condi effect it, try bs through any other thiefs poison field or scourges condi aoe's or ele fire etc etc all can take 75% of a thiefs health. So no it's not complete invulnerability

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    Any aoe condi effect it, try bs through any other thiefs poison field or scourges condi aoe's or ele fire etc etc all can take 75% of a thiefs health. So no it's not complete invulnerability

    DS evades all incoming hits, including those generated by AoEs. It will evade scourge's shades and other thief's shortbow 4s. As stated, only a tiny number of effects in the game can effect you while in DS.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite. The burst opening of conditions you outline is in fact generally only effective against persons with limited cleanses. If you are facing a person with sufficient cleanses he cleanses that burst quite readily and then you are crippled until your next burst ready giving that enemy time to recover health. It generally better to space out condition applications in such a match up and not use them all at once.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    Yeah but running a shout war will render you useless against everything else.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    Yeah but running a shout war will render you useless against everything else.

    Oh he is not useless at all. He is specced to tank and if you engage at melee will churn out plenty of damage even as he shrugs off your own.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    Yeah but running a shout war will render you useless against everything else.

    Oh he is not useless at all. He is specced to tank and if you engage at melee will churn out plenty of damage even as he shrugs off your own.

    I rest my case.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    Yeah but running a shout war will render you useless against everything else.

    Oh he is not useless at all. He is specced to tank and if you engage at melee will churn out plenty of damage even as he shrugs off your own.

    A s/d shrugs off dps from a warrior or do u mean evades it?

  • Poledra Val.1490Poledra Val.1490 Member ✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    This build is just a gimmick and it clearly carries terrible players to heights in pvp they have never been in before. It should be nerfed of course its literally one of the top 3 easiest things to use in pvp right now and is obviously effective.

    Its very counterproductive for a build to carry the player they dont really learn anything bar pressing 2-3 buttons.

    Once this build is nerfed you will witness an all mighty exodus of a huge percentage of thieves that will have there favorite toy taken away and will likely quit pvp or just move on to the next busted thing.

  • @Poledra Val.1490 said:
    This build is just a gimmick and it clearly carries terrible players to heights in pvp they have never been in before. It should be nerfed of course its literally one of the top 3 easiest things to use in pvp right now and is obviously effective.

    Its very counterproductive for a build to carry the player they dont really learn anything bar pressing 2-3 buttons.

    Once this build is nerfed you will witness an all mighty exodus of a huge percentage of thieves that will have there favorite toy taken away and will likely quit pvp or just move on to the next busted thing.

    U basically just described every popular espec and it's most popular build lmao. This is gw2 remember?

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Poledra Val.1490 said:
    This build is just a gimmick and it clearly carries terrible players to heights in pvp they have never been in before. It should be nerfed of course its literally one of the top 3 easiest things to use in pvp right now and is obviously effective.

    Its very counterproductive for a build to carry the player they dont really learn anything bar pressing 2-3 buttons.

    Once this build is nerfed you will witness an all mighty exodus of a huge percentage of thieves that will have there favorite toy taken away and will likely quit pvp or just move on to the next busted thing.

    U basically just described every popular espec and it's most popular build lmao. This is gw2 remember?

    True but the ease of this build to use is honestly new levels of rediculousness.

  • Remove the sword2 immob, turn it into cripple + blind.

    Or just give thief the reworks it needs to not have to crutch on a certain set of skills/traits.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People always say “nerf condi thief” and then fail to realize that:

    1. There are multiple condition builds for thief that all have different mechanics and methods. You have to name specific abilities if you want to be understood by the rest of the player base.
    2. Individually, none of those mechanics produces a huge spike of conditions.
    3. Fighting a condi thief is about understanding what combination of abilities the thief has to successfully hit you with for you to be spiked with conditions.
    4. If you don’t use cleanse in your build you aren’t a good baseline for balance against any condition build, regardless of whether it is attached to thief.

    Ask a thief to help identify issues with your build, gameplay, or issues with specific thief skills/traits. Plenty of us are glad to help.

    1. He's obviously talking about S/D as its the only viable build.

    2. No, it's a combination of all things deadly arts, lotus training and the occasional combo finisher in shortbow 4.

    3. They have to hit with infiltrator strike from behind a wall. This will immob and apply poison through panic strike, deadly ambition (I think this is the name) venom and lotus training. Throw in a steal while he's immob for some extra condis. This results in 6(?) Different condis and about 12 stacks of poison. They literally just have to hit sword 2, no risk as you can just port back if they dodge.

    4. Nothing, except maybe water Weaver and conversion Holo can outcleanse the application. The key to fighting them is making them use initiative on surviving. Hard sticking on them.> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

      DS is not invulnerability, I don't know why this is stated so often. U are still affected by condi's other than slow. Theres more than enough aoe's around these days that can chew a lot off a thief's small hp pool. Plus it's on 3 sec skill on a long CD unless ofcourse u luck out with improv's rng which ur prob not even running in a condi build.

    It's an evade that evades all incoming stacks just cleanse before you use it. The only thing that can effect you is tethers (spellbreaker and dragonhunter) and ward effects (staff Ele, staff guard and hammer guard). So about as close to an invuln as it gets.

    When I am on my own s/p power thief facing your mentioned s/d condition , I am quite capable of flushing away any conditions applied. That Port REMOVES conditions and coupled with other cleanses condi s/d is going to run out of INI and means to apply his poison via an Immob before I run out of cleanses.

    My own shout warrior using shake it off is more then capable of keeping ahead of those condition stacks. That builds weakness is the ability to engage but it hardly concerned over the conditions from an s/d thief. P/d thief is much more effective against him. P/d thief using shadows embrace and trickster can also keep up with the condition adds from the s/d build.

    S/d condition is most effective against people that do not trait enough cleanses or that do not kite.

    Yeah but running a shout war will render you useless against everything else.

    Oh he is not useless at all. He is specced to tank and if you engage at melee will churn out plenty of damage even as he shrugs off your own.

    A s/d shrugs off dps from a warrior or do u mean evades it?

    No, the warrior I am speaking of will shrug off damage the enemy applies at melee range. In order to fight him the enemy has to kite and use range.Trying to exchange blows at melee they end up dead more often then not.

  • birdboy.6509birdboy.6509 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    In the spirit of full disclosure, I will preface this post by saying for those of you who don't know me or my main account (anonymouse.4760), every season I have played I get to legend with thief. I will write this objectively and with as little bias as possible. It's important to know moving forward in this post that thief has 4 viable ranked specs SCROLL DOWN FOR TLDR
    1. Condi Thief
    2. Deadeye
    3. Staff thief
    4. Core Power

    I just want to point out a few things. . .

    1. Anet already addressed condi thief is getting nerfed, you can see it in the most recent suggested patch notes - deadly ambition ( the recently reworked trait ) is getting hit so that it has less burst and forces thieves to apply more sustained pressure. I anticipate post-season-update the aforementioned specs will become more popular among thief players. I am aware condi is disliked and frowned upon by a lot of players, ( a big reason as to why this thread has gotten so much attention ) so i'm sure a lot of you will be happy to read this.

    2. There's a lot of talk about condi thief being easy to use or broken yet of the players that make up the top 10 on the leaderboard not one of them is a condi thief, while the majority is holosmith / dps firebrand. In fact, the two thieves currently on it are a deadeye and a staff thief. In the top 25 - none of the account names I recognize belong to condi thief players. I can't speak for condi thief's effectiveness or rarity in gold or low plat which i'm assuming many of the players posting here reside in, as I am typically around 1770-1820 - but I'm sure it is more prevalent there. My point is that it's "ease of use" drops off heavily against more experienced players. Sound familiar? This is how thief has been since launch. every viable thief spec always garners complaints, because of the mechanics of the class being difficult to understand / counter.

    3. Be patient, the patch usually hits mid season, which is only a week or two away from now. In no time at all you'll be back to the forums reading complaints about how a perma stealth deadeye just one shot someone for a 13k deaths judgement, or a staff thief just survived a 1v2 and evaded ten times in a row. No matter how you look at it, thief mechanics will always be hard to deal with - sorry but that's just the nature of the class.

    Pick your poison

    • Kat

    TLDR
    - condi thief confirmed getting nerfed soon, u wont c it as much because of how competitive the other options are
    - easier in silver / gold vs plat / legend
    - condi always gets more complaints than power, hence why there is more attention here than on deadeye which are both equally good in ranked IMO
    - thief in general gets alot of complaints because its burst is low counterplay and hard to understand not bc its more op than other meta classes
    - just as many guardians holos revs ect as there are thieves proves it isn't out of line with other meta classes

  • Moonlight.1985Moonlight.1985 Member
    edited September 12, 2019

    @birdboy.6509 said:
    In the spirit of full disclosure, I will preface this post by saying for those of you who don't know me or my main account (anonymouse.4760), every season I have played I get to legend with thief. I will write this objectively and with as little bias as possible. It's important to know moving forward in this post that thief has 4 viable ranked specs SCROLL DOWN FOR TLDR
    1. Condi Thief
    2. Deadeye
    3. Staff thief
    4. Core Power

    I just want to point out a few things. . .

    1. Anet already addressed condi thief is getting nerfed, you can see it in the most recent suggested patch notes - deadly ambition ( the recently reworked trait ) is getting hit so that it has less burst and forces thieves to apply more sustained pressure. I anticipate post-season-update the aforementioned specs will become more popular among thief players. I am aware condi is disliked and frowned upon by a lot of players, ( a big reason as to why this thread has gotten so much attention ) so i'm sure a lot of you will be happy to read this.

    2. There's a lot of talk about condi thief being easy to use or broken yet of the players that make up the top 10 on the leaderboard not one of them is a condi thief, while the majority is holosmith / dps firebrand. In fact, the two thieves currently on it are a deadeye and a staff thief. In the top 25 - none of the account names I recognize belong to condi thief players. I can't speak for condi thief's effectiveness or rarity in gold or low plat which i'm assuming many of the players posting here reside in, as I am typically around 1770-1820 - but I'm sure it is more prevalent there. My point is that it's "ease of use" drops off heavily against more experienced players. Sound familiar? This is how thief has been since launch. every viable thief spec always garners complaints, because of the mechanics of the class being difficult to understand / counter.

    3. Be patient, the patch usually hits mid season, which is only a week or two away from now. In no time at all you'll be back to the forums reading complaints about how a perma stealth deadeye just one shot someone for a 13k deaths judgement, or a staff thief just survived a 1v2 and evaded ten times in a row. No matter how you look at it, thief mechanics will always be hard to deal with - sorry but that's just the nature of the class.

    Pick your poison

    • Kat

    TLDR
    - condi thief confirmed getting nerfed soon, u wont c it as much because of how competitive the other options are
    - easier in silver / gold vs plat / legend
    - condi always gets more complaints than power, hence why there is more attention here than on deadeye which are both equally good in ranked IMO
    - thief in general gets alot of complaints because its burst is low counterplay and hard to understand not bc its more op than other meta classes
    - just as many guardians holos revs ect as there are thieves proves it isn't out of line with other meta classes

    The main issue is the deadly ambition trait + panic strike the former which is getting a change although it's definitely fake news that's a nerf since it's going from (3stacks of poison traited) 5sec icd ->(2stacks of poison traited) 2sec Icd. Basic math = every 10 sec thief applies 6 stacks of poison(traited) and after change(nerf hahaxd) applies 10stacks of poison . All they need to do is add an icd for the immob on poison in panic strike and condi thief won't be able to spam sword 2 and have ridiculous poison up time. Wrote this with "as little bias as possible" btw.

  • @Moonlight.1985 said:

    The main issue is the deadly ambition trait + panic strike the former which is getting a change although it's definitely fake news that's a nerf since it's going from (3stacks of poison traited) 5sec icd ->(2stacks of poison traited) 2sec Icd. Basic math = every 10 sec thief applies 6 stacks of poison(traited) and after change(nerf hahaxd) applies 10stacks of poison . All they need to do is add an icd for the immob on poison in panic strike and condi thief won't be able to spam sword 2 and have ridiculous poison up time. Wrote this with "as little bias as possible" btw.

    Nice try but you're not mentioning the duration decrease. I'll write this assuming it's traited as well
    3 stacks that last 3 seconds with an ICD of 5 seconds -- > 2 stacks that last 2 seconds with an ICD of 2 seconds
    Basically in order to achieve the same level of damage output in 10 seconds you would have to hit the target 5 times exactly on the 2 second intervals whereas previously you would only need hit the target once every 5 seconds. (That's not gonna happen often if at all)
    it's pretty obvious which version of the trait you'll average higher damage, and have higher burst all in one.
    "basic math" btw

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    I'm not a fan

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    Meh. Thought on it and decided that even anet does not care about it that much.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @birdboy.6509 said:
    2 stacks that last 2 seconds with an ICD of 2 seconds

    I am not a fan of this change at all. This means perma poison without any investment when thief as potent poison. Permanent pressure and reduced heal is so much fun. This is a really really small nerf.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @birdboy.6509 said:

    @Moonlight.1985 said:

    The main issue is the deadly ambition trait + panic strike the former which is getting a change although it's definitely fake news that's a nerf since it's going from (3stacks of poison traited) 5sec icd ->(2stacks of poison traited) 2sec Icd. Basic math = every 10 sec thief applies 6 stacks of poison(traited) and after change(nerf hahaxd) applies 10stacks of poison . All they need to do is add an icd for the immob on poison in panic strike and condi thief won't be able to spam sword 2 and have ridiculous poison up time. Wrote this with "as little bias as possible" btw.

    Nice try but you're not mentioning the duration decrease. I'll write this assuming it's traited as well
    3 stacks that last 3 seconds with an ICD of 5 seconds -- > 2 stacks that last 2 seconds with an ICD of 2 seconds
    Basically in order to achieve the same level of damage output in 10 seconds you would have to hit the target 5 times exactly on the 2 second intervals whereas previously you would only need hit the target once every 5 seconds. (That's not gonna happen often if at all)
    it's pretty obvious which version of the trait you'll average higher damage, and have higher burst all in one.
    "basic math" btw

    3x3=9x2 activations per 10s =18s poison per 10s

    2x2=4x5 activations per 10s = 20s poison per 10s

    It is basic math, this is a buff

  • d/d is far superior in my personal opinion so im not worried lol

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.