Elite-level specializations for basic professions - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elite-level specializations for basic professions

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  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2019

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    I would still like to see a kick-kitten elite longbow ranger.
    I have the Dragonhunter for an elite bowman to run around with instead.

    Exactly my point. Why on earth is a guardian better with a longbow than a ranger? That makes no sense whatsoever. Yet, here it stares us in the face.

    They're... not? Ranger longbow's still great on soulbeast, while dragonhunter longbow got nerfed into the ground (along with the traps) because of lazy PVPers.

    But, you're making my point: a soulbeast is NOT a ranger. It's a soulbeast. Why does a ranger have to give up being a ranger in order to use a longbow?

    To be fair, you asked why a Guardian is better than a Ranger with a longbow. By the logic of your statement here the answer is that, under no circumstances is a Guardian better at wielding a longbow because he cannot do so.

    Ultimately, IMO, a Dragon Hunter is still a Guardian, He is just one who has trained for a bit more diversity than a core Guardian.

    In my experience the real difference in potence for a power DH vs power Ranger is not the longbow, its the traps. DH has power traps that scale with his stats. Ranger traps, for the most part, do not scale well with a power build.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

    They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    Power-creep is HOW it works. I was asking WHY. In other words, the logic behind the decision to make them more lucrative to use. But, you did explain that, too: it was unintentional.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    understand I haven’t read every response

    Why is it that the ‘core specs’ need to be ‘brought up to the level’ of elite specs?

    That is just more power creep.

    Scale back the elite lines. Bring them DOWN to the level of the core specs.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

    But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

    • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
    • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
    • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
    • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
    • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
    • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
    • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

    This will have major cascading issues, which will vary significantly. Using guardian as an example, PvE, no build currently uses virtues. Power dps is zeal/radiance/DH. Condi dps is zeal/radiance/FB. Support and Quic brand use radiance/honor/FB. sPvP on the other hand, all builds use virtues, even the under performing ones. This will be a major nerf in sPvP with relatively no changes in PvE (unless virtues damage bonus is high enough to dethrone one of the dps builds, or about the same level). To compensate, other lines will need to buffed in some form to fill in the gap. But, what about core builds not using virtues? They would not count?

    I do not think it is a bad idea, but will require a significant amount of work. And if Anet will do that, I think what would work better is all lines (including elites) to be closer in power, with elites offering different game play style.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

    They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

    No they are not. They are meta builds because they perform very well in the content.

    The guardian and warrior core builds for example for raids/fractals are en par with elite builds for example pushing 33-35k damage on golem (guardian) or 26-28k damage on golem with heavy support in form of cc and banners (warrior).

    For competative game modes, some of the core builds are meta because they are that well at fullfilling their designated role.

    You can keep telling yourself core builds are far behind elite specializations if it makes you feel better in case you are struggling. That's not the case though.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    That's why they need to do the opposite, all specs should be a choice not a linear forced direction.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

    But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

    • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
    • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
    • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
    • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
    • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
    • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
    • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

    This will have major cascading issues, which will vary significantly. Using guardian as an example, PvE, no build currently uses virtues. Power dps is zeal/radiance/DH. Condi dps is zeal/radiance/FB. Support and Quic brand use radiance/honor/FB. sPvP on the other hand, all builds use virtues, even the under performing ones. This will be a major nerf in sPvP with relatively no changes in PvE (unless virtues damage bonus is high enough to dethrone one of the dps builds, or about the same level). To compensate, other lines will need to buffed in some form to fill in the gap. But, what about core builds not using virtues? They would not count?

    I do not think it is a bad idea, but will require a significant amount of work. And if Anet will do that, I think what would work better is all lines (including elites) to be closer in power, with elites offering different game play style.

    Agreed it would, this is just what I imagine to be the least work from ANet AND the least impact compared to most other ideas I've seen and heard regarding buffing core to meet elites. And yes indeed, a core build not using their 5th tier would very likely under-perform unless it has some kind of good combo without.

    But I absolutely agree and hope for them to reduce elites down to core level, and balance them all around the same power-level. I miss a game where you don't die in WvW the moment you run out of chainable blocks and invulnerables.

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    understand I haven’t read every response

    Why is it that the ‘core specs’ need to be ‘brought up to the level’ of elite specs?

    That is just more power creep.

    Scale back the elite lines. Bring them DOWN to the level of the core specs.

    This, so much.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

    By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

    Elite has become ‘effectively better’

    It needn’t be that way at all.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Minstrel is a HoT stat. Making armor is easier than ever. If you want to play healer, what stats do you use?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

    By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

    Elite has become ‘effectively better’

    It needn’t be that way at all.

    elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • @Providence.7185 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

    To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

    Or you are a regular WvW player and just buy the points with your excess on proof of heroics and are done in a few seconds. Just saying ...

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    Who cares about core. 1st: you still have two skill trees from core, 2nd we played them for kitten 3 years to death.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

    By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

    Elite has become ‘effectively better’

    It needn’t be that way at all.

    elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

    Which is just to say that they picked a bad name for them :)

    The idea they tried to design them around was to be "specialists". They seemingly did as bad a job of designing that as they did naming it.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

    By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

    Elite has become ‘effectively better’

    It needn’t be that way at all.

    elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

    Hmm., not sure if that was an attempt at condescension or not. Thank you for posting that definition for others.

    If we were to parse every phrase and description Anet gives, I think that you would see the fallacy in that.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Hmm., not sure if that was an attempt at condescension or not. Thank you for posting that definition for others.

    If we were to parse every phrase and description Anet gives, I think that you would see the fallacy in that.

    No, not an attempt to condescend. Sorry if you heard it that way. Just a clarification of what "elite" means.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Hmm., not sure if that was an attempt at condescension or not. Thank you for posting that definition for others.

    If we were to parse every phrase and description Anet gives, I think that you would see the fallacy in that.

    No, not an attempt to condescend. Sorry if you heard it that way. Just a clarification of what "elite" means.

    Fair enough.

    It’s easy to read too much into the forums. That’s why I answered it the way I did. Didn’t want to assume. 🙂

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Fair enough.

    It’s easy to read too much into the forums. That’s why I answered it the way I did. Didn’t want to assume. 🙂

    I appreciate the consideration and not jumping to conclusions. If only more posters would act so. ;)

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

    By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

    Elite has become ‘effectively better’

    It needn’t be that way at all.

    elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

    I know what elite means and it doesn't work in a game mechanics instance.. Its badly designed and overly linear in choice.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Minstrel is a HoT stat. Making armor is easier than ever. If you want to play healer, what stats do you use?

    I use Magi with rares trinkets because its so hard to make armor these days.. Magi is cheaper to make in the long run.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    You have literally 0 use for ascended gear.

    Your ability to make any calls as far as balance is concerned is questionable at best.

    Mordremoth is soloable, I've done so on almost all of my 30 characters, some back then in full rare gear on unoptimized builds. Some people have even soloed the challenge mode. I'm sorry but this seems more and more a personal skill issue which you are projecting on general balance assumptions.

    EDIT: also ascended armor would have almost no benefit to you. You'd gain much greater benefit in wathcing some guides videos and getting build advice.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    That's a personal issue and not reflected in the majority of the game.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

    Your opinion based on pure open world content where core builds are more than strong enough.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    You have literally 0 use for ascended gear.

    Your ability to make any calls as far as balance is concerned is questionable at best.

    Mordremoth is soloable, I've done so on almost all of my 30 characters, some back then in full rare gear on unoptimized builds. Some people have even soloed the challenge mode. I'm sorry but this seems more and more a personal skill issue which you are projecting on general balance assumptions.

    EDIT: also ascended armor would have almost no benefit to you. You'd gain much grater benefit in wathcing some guides videos and getting build advice.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    That's a personal issue and not reflected in the majority of the game.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

    Your opinion based on pure open world content where core builds are more than strong enough.

    I probably wouldn't need help in those areas if i could afford ascended gears.. I'd probably try different aspects of the game if i had ascended gear as well.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    You have literally 0 use for ascended gear.

    Your ability to make any calls as far as balance is concerned is questionable at best.

    Mordremoth is soloable, I've done so on almost all of my 30 characters, some back then in full rare gear on unoptimized builds. Some people have even soloed the challenge mode. I'm sorry but this seems more and more a personal skill issue which you are projecting on general balance assumptions.

    EDIT: also ascended armor would have almost no benefit to you. You'd gain much grater benefit in wathcing some guides videos and getting build advice.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    That's a personal issue and not reflected in the majority of the game.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

    Your opinion based on pure open world content where core builds are more than strong enough.

    I probably wouldn't need help in those areas if i could afford ascended gears.. I'd probably try different aspects of the game if i had ascended gear as well.

    You would still need help the 12% damage increase from full ascended wouldent help much mate.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    You have literally 0 use for ascended gear.

    Your ability to make any calls as far as balance is concerned is questionable at best.

    Mordremoth is soloable, I've done so on almost all of my 30 characters, some back then in full rare gear on unoptimized builds. Some people have even soloed the challenge mode. I'm sorry but this seems more and more a personal skill issue which you are projecting on general balance assumptions.

    EDIT: also ascended armor would have almost no benefit to you. You'd gain much grater benefit in wathcing some guides videos and getting build advice.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    That's a personal issue and not reflected in the majority of the game.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

    Your opinion based on pure open world content where core builds are more than strong enough.

    I probably wouldn't need help in those areas if i could afford ascended gears.. I'd probably try different aspects of the game if i had ascended gear as well.

    You would still need help the 12% damage increase from full ascended wouldent help much mate.

    It would help a lot, so would core Specs being on par with elite.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    You have literally 0 use for ascended gear.

    Your ability to make any calls as far as balance is concerned is questionable at best.

    Mordremoth is soloable, I've done so on almost all of my 30 characters, some back then in full rare gear on unoptimized builds. Some people have even soloed the challenge mode. I'm sorry but this seems more and more a personal skill issue which you are projecting on general balance assumptions.

    EDIT: also ascended armor would have almost no benefit to you. You'd gain much grater benefit in wathcing some guides videos and getting build advice.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    That's a personal issue and not reflected in the majority of the game.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

    Your opinion based on pure open world content where core builds are more than strong enough.

    I probably wouldn't need help in those areas if i could afford ascended gears.. I'd probably try different aspects of the game if i had ascended gear as well.

    You would still need help the 12% damage increase from full ascended wouldent help much mate.

    It would help a lot, so would core Specs being on par with elite.

    The fact you believe that is what holds you back in improving as a player and overcoming content.

    Given there is performance improvement of 300-400% and above between the average player and top tier players is indication enough that this is where a persons main focus should be if they want to have an easier and more enjoyable time at the game.

    I'll repeat what I've said multiple times by now: instead of blaming other factors like lack of gear or supposedly underpowered specs, get some basic advice, read up a bit, brush up just slightly on your own performance. The return would be vastly greater.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

    Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

    So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

    300g is barely? try that with 18 or 20 characters? what planet is 300 gold barely in this game..

    300g is 1 week of casually farming 1-2 hours per day, or 2 days of hardcore farming, or 2 weeks of fractals or any combination of those. That's only for crafting the ascended armor, which is by far the most expensive option. That's nothing for best in slot gear for a MMORPG. It's also vastly easier, faster and cheaper than ever before in GW2 history.

    "Casually farming" I love it.. No its not at all.. Plus i'm oceanic so 99% of the farmers are asleep when i'm on.. That said slaving away to make gold is not why i play an mmorpg..
    I don't do WvW, PvP, Raids or Fractals i don't like dealing with those communities.. I 99% of the time do stories solo, unless its Zaitan or mordremoth etc.. Then i tend to ask for help from someone, mostly because zaitain mission is so broken, and mordremoth isn't soloable.

    You have literally 0 use for ascended gear.

    Your ability to make any calls as far as balance is concerned is questionable at best.

    Mordremoth is soloable, I've done so on almost all of my 30 characters, some back then in full rare gear on unoptimized builds. Some people have even soloed the challenge mode. I'm sorry but this seems more and more a personal skill issue which you are projecting on general balance assumptions.

    EDIT: also ascended armor would have almost no benefit to you. You'd gain much grater benefit in wathcing some guides videos and getting build advice.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    So 300gold is astronomical to me.

    That's a personal issue and not reflected in the majority of the game.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Its off topic Elites should be as good as core builds and vice versa

    Your opinion based on pure open world content where core builds are more than strong enough.

    I probably wouldn't need help in those areas if i could afford ascended gears.. I'd probably try different aspects of the game if i had ascended gear as well.

    This is a player issue. Everyone can get ascended (which, again, are NOT needed on any content except fractals). If someone isnt willing to even do basic stuff to make a proper gearset (exotics work fine btw), this is a player issue, not a class issue. Should Anet buff core specs because people cant be bothered to make a simple dps or whatever set they need? My answer is no.

  • kratan.4619kratan.4619 Member ✭✭✭

    I clear all content with my ranger, I haven ever even tried another spec.

  • @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    You don't balance a pve game around pvp. It's plain bad, you balance them separate.

    not withstanding the fact it's a majority pve game, so it makes no sense to balance around pvp.

    on topic, the ideas bad. No

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    You don't balance a pve game around pvp. It's plain bad, you balance them separate.

    not withstanding the fact it's a majority pve game, so it makes no sense to balance around pvp.

    on topic, the ideas bad. No

    I agree. Separate balancing. I mean look at what happened to pve scourge after recent wvw nerfs.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    You don't balance a pve game around pvp. It's plain bad, you balance them separate.

    not withstanding the fact it's a majority pve game, so it makes no sense to balance around pvp.

    on topic, the ideas bad. No

    It is possible but only if classes and combat design were made from the initial process to work like that, gw1 was made under that ideal.

    ATM is way way to late for that invertion, it’s a pve classes game with pvp on it.

  • @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    You don't balance a pve game around pvp. It's plain bad, you balance them separate.

    not withstanding the fact it's a majority pve game, so it makes no sense to balance around pvp.

    on topic, the ideas bad. No

    It is possible but only if classes and combat design were made from the initial process to work like that, gw1 was made under that ideal.

    ATM is way way to late for that invertion, it’s a pve classes game with pvp on it.

    I adored GW1s balance, 100% separate, and it worked super well.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

    They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

    No they are not. They are meta builds because they perform very well in the content.

    The guardian and warrior core builds for example for raids/fractals are en par with elite builds for example pushing 33-35k damage on golem (guardian) or 26-28k damage on golem with heavy support in form of cc and banners (warrior).

    For competative game modes, some of the core builds are meta because they are that well at fullfilling their designated role.

    You can keep telling yourself core builds are far behind elite specializations if it makes you feel better in case you are struggling. That's not the case though.

    I never said they were far behind. I simply parroted what dozens of other people here have said in the past.

    Regarding struggling, go back and read my OP again.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    That's why they need to do the opposite, all specs should be a choice not a linear forced direction.

    I'm not sure I agree. They tailored the newer content to the higher-strength elites. It fits with their stated design goal of horizontal improvements.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    I don't agree that it is grindy. Legendaries are grindy. Some of the achievements are grindy. But, ascended gear really isn't that bad. It takes a while, but not if you have a reasonable number of characters. I only play the content I like to play, but I'm 82% completely outfitted with ascended gear. I just use what I farm here and there to do it. (And, I have an UNreasonable number of characters.)

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

    They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

    No they are not. They are meta builds because they perform very well in the content.

    The guardian and warrior core builds for example for raids/fractals are en par with elite builds for example pushing 33-35k damage on golem (guardian) or 26-28k damage on golem with heavy support in form of cc and banners (warrior).

    For competative game modes, some of the core builds are meta because they are that well at fullfilling their designated role.

    You can keep telling yourself core builds are far behind elite specializations if it makes you feel better in case you are struggling. That's not the case though.

    I never said they were far behind. I simply parroted what dozens of other people here have said in the past.

    Regarding struggling, go back and read my OP again.

    There is alot of diffrent people in that quote chain the thing about the struggling was clearly aimed at Dante.1508

    Specificly this comment

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

    They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

    No they are not. They are meta builds because they perform very well in the content.

    The guardian and warrior core builds for example for raids/fractals are en par with elite builds for example pushing 33-35k damage on golem (guardian) or 26-28k damage on golem with heavy support in form of cc and banners (warrior).

    For competative game modes, some of the core builds are meta because they are that well at fullfilling their designated role.

    You can keep telling yourself core builds are far behind elite specializations if it makes you feel better in case you are struggling. That's not the case though.

    I never said they were far behind. I simply parroted what dozens of other people here have said in the past.

    Regarding struggling, go back and read my OP again.

    For what its worth, people parrot a lot of things. That doesnt mean theyre right, however.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

    Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

    That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

    They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

    No they are not. They are meta builds because they perform very well in the content.

    The guardian and warrior core builds for example for raids/fractals are en par with elite builds for example pushing 33-35k damage on golem (guardian) or 26-28k damage on golem with heavy support in form of cc and banners (warrior).

    For competative game modes, some of the core builds are meta because they are that well at fullfilling their designated role.

    You can keep telling yourself core builds are far behind elite specializations if it makes you feel better in case you are struggling. That's not the case though.

    I never said they were far behind. I simply parroted what dozens of other people here have said in the past.

    Regarding struggling, go back and read my OP again.

    If they are not far behind, there is even less reason to devote resources since the issue becomes even less relevant. Also what Linken mentioned, I was not refering to you when talking about people being challenged by content.

    As far as parroting, consider which players in this thread are saying what.

    The open world warriors are saying 1 thing, the players who have clearly tackled challenging content are saying something else. The question is, do you listen to the bottom of the heap, or the top? Who do you believe has a better understanding of the game and it's mechanics?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The question you need to ask is why players are taking the elite specialization. In most cases, it's not because of the traits, so nerfing elite traits or -even worse- buffing core traits won't do anything to reduce the effectiveness of elite specs. Take a look at Elementalist, the most impact in most builds is done by the Fresh Air trait, which, if given the choice, few would trade for either Tempest or Weaver traits. Dragonhunter has very lackluster trait choices and Guardian is dominated by traits like Symbolic Avenger and Right-hand Strength which are the defining traits of Guardian builds (both in non-elite specs). All/most Thief builds use Critical Strike traits and they offer value more than both Daredevil and Deadeye.

    Core Specs are build defining already and all meta builds rely heavily on core traits to work properly. The reason players take an elite spec isn't for the elite spec line, but for the new weapon, the new profession mechanic and the new skills, elite traits are either completely secondary or are of similar value to core spec traits. Making skills and weapons available only to a core spec isn't going to work, because elite specs rely on those to work too, meaning no matter what they do to increase the power of core spec, it will also increase the power of the elite specs. The exception is the profession mechanic and there has been a lot of effort to decrease the power of the elite spec mechanic or add trade offs. As an example, Holosmith had no trade offs, now you can't use tool belt skills while overheating

    In short, I don't think there is any need to buff core specs, they are already the build defining specializations for most builds. Weapons and skills are the reason elite specs are chosen, and those can't be buffed for core specs without also buffing elite specs. They could play more with the profession mechanic, but that's it.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    You don't balance a pve game around pvp. It's plain bad, you balance them separate.

    not withstanding the fact it's a majority pve game, so it makes no sense to balance around pvp.

    on topic, the ideas bad. No

    Gw2 was from launch at 2012 and up until 2014-2015 balanced entire game around PvP, I don't ever remember if there was any skill splits at that time. And the game was originally aimed at PvP as one of the main pillars on par with PvE. The game has shifted later on (2015). And the game was designed around that (just like gw1 was).

    It is possible but only if classes and combat design were made from the initial process to work like that, gw1 was made under that ideal.

    ATM is way way to late for that invertion, it’s a pve classes game with pvp on it.

    GW2 was also designed like that from the start, up until 2015, by which time the PvE aspect took over completely (probably due to the failing of ESL).

    I adored GW1s balance, 100% separate, and it worked super well.

    What they're trying to do now with GW2 sounds a bit similar to what GW1 ended up doing, and separate the skills. It's been a while, but didn't they start out GW1 skills equalized between modes as well, and then split them over time ? Next we'll be getting "Pve skills" in gw2 ;)

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

    Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

    And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


    So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

    But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    Power-creep.

    Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

    And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

    • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
    • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
    • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

    TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

    That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

    You don't balance a pve game around pvp. It's plain bad, you balance them separate.

    not withstanding the fact it's a majority pve game, so it makes no sense to balance around pvp.

    on topic, the ideas bad. No

    Gw2 was from launch at 2012 and up until 2014-2015 balanced entire game around PvP, I don't ever remember if there was any skill splits at that time. And the game was originally aimed at PvP as one of the main pillars on par with PvE. The game has shifted later on (2015). And the game was designed around that (just like gw1 was).

    It is possible but only if classes and combat design were made from the initial process to work like that, gw1 was made under that ideal.

    ATM is way way to late for that invertion, it’s a pve classes game with pvp on it.

    GW2 was also designed like that from the start, up until 2015, by which time the PvE aspect took over completely (probably due to the failing of ESL).

    I adored GW1s balance, 100% separate, and it worked super well.

    What they're trying to do now with GW2 sounds a bit similar to what GW1 ended up doing, and separate the skills. It's been a while, but didn't they start out GW1 skills equalized between modes as well, and then split them over time ? Next we'll be getting "Pve skills" in gw2 ;)

    GW1 was years better at balancing once they split. They originally had access to certain PVE areas based on PVP performance, that got changed for obvious reasons. You never ever balance a PVE game on PVP, nor vice versa, two entirely different game modes.

    Balance was far far worse when it was PVP designed, and barring the Rev, they've made decent strides in balancing since.

    I don't think they started out with PVE and PVP combined to my recollection

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

    That's why they need to do the opposite, all specs should be a choice not a linear forced direction.

    I'm not sure I agree. They tailored the newer content to the higher-strength elites. It fits with their stated design goal of horizontal improvements.

    That's vertical not horizontal..

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

    I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

    ... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

    I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

    I don't agree that it is grindy. Legendaries are grindy. Some of the achievements are grindy. But, ascended gear really isn't that bad. It takes a while, but not if you have a reasonable number of characters. I only play the content I like to play, but I'm 82% completely outfitted with ascended gear. I just use what I farm here and there to do it. (And, I have an UNreasonable number of characters.)

    You must play an unhealthy amount of hours a day to outfit that many characters.. I play many hours and i still have to buy my mats.. even farming 24/7 is insane.

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