A possible Infinite Horizon "fix" through a slight Mirage tweak — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A possible Infinite Horizon "fix" through a slight Mirage tweak

ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

Hello everyone,

The infinite horizon trait is being controversial due to the high pressure it offers, especially with condi builds, and it's currently being looked at in PvP, and in WvW. Namely :

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:
Condi Mirage
We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

Two things are to be considered here : mirage cloak offers a big evade uptime, and infinite horizon offers a big pressure potential. The aim of my suggestion is to put forward an idea on that topic. Mirage is a very thematic elite specialization with 3 specific mechanics : mirage cloak, ambushes, and mirage mirrors. In my opinion, mirage mirrors still haven't found their place in gamestyles, and I'd like to shed more light on them as well with that idea.

That said, the infinite horizon trait is problematic because it triggers ambushes for clones roughly each time there's an evade. Yet, the fact that mirage has a large evade access allows for a lot of pressure through infinite horizon. So the idea is simple : decorrelate the clone's access to ambushes and the mirage's evade.

The core idea is to replace all the shatter skills by command skills. Commands skills would be the F-skills. They wouldn't shatter clones, but deal no direct damage. The new F-skills would then be :

  • F1 : Assign your clones a new target. No damage whatsoever, so a fairly low CD will do.
  • F2 : Infinite horizon commands the clones to use their ambush skill on their current target. Inherits Mind Wrack's traits. With Mind Wrack's 12s CD, it'd automatically lower the pressure.
  • F3 : Randomly teleport your clones in a 600 radius around their target. Target enemy gets confusion stacks like Cry of Frustration. Inherits Cry of Frustration's traits.
  • F4 : turns all your clones into mirage mirrors

Infinite horizon trait becomes a command, and so does desert distorsion. The last "top" trait is self deception, and I'd also like to see it replaced with these 3 suggestions :

  • Instead of self-deception, a trait that'd generate a clone when a mirage mirror is shattered. The idea is to promote mirage mirrors, and lower a bit the clone generation.
  • Instead of desert distorsion, a trait that'd trigger "minor arcane thievery".
  • Instead of infinite horizon, a trait that'd be focused on deceptions, and I've no clear idea about it beyond the usual CD reduction. It'd be nice and thematic to have something with mirrors as well. Something around the idea of sadistic searing like : if you shatter a mirror, your next deception skill confuses enemies in a given radius.

To sum it up :

Thematically, mirage would be more focused on evasion and deception through "images" which actually are clones. As a result Mirages don't shatter their clones. Instead of that, they command their clones with specific orders : get a new target (F1), use their ambush skill (F2), confuse their enemy (F3), turn into a mirage mirror (F4). Mirage lose the ability to daze, just like Chronomancer lost the ability to distort.

As part of these command skills are built from traits, they'd get traits more focused around mirage mirrors, to make that mechanic more appealing. Mirage mirrors could thus : provide clone generation, trigger arcane thievery, or give deceptions a boost.

Whatever happens, the mirage still gets mirage cloak as an evade just the way it is, and its own ambush skill would work all the same as actually.

Any thoughts ?

Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

Comments

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The idea of shatters being clone commands similar to ranger pet commands was put forward multiple times before pof release.

    I still like the idea however think at this point it is too significant a redesign that I'm not expecting anything like this to ever happen - especially given how the changes to chrono still have shatters being very similar with core.

    Most we can hope for is offloading shatter damage more onto player ambush - to further differentiate the spec from core mesmer which should have the highest shatter burst damage potential. Mirage should have more sustained damage with reduced damage shatters indirectly buffing the sustained damage from ambushes. This would make the spec more unique compared with core and chrono.

    In my opinion there should be no build for massive instantaneous burst on mirage - that should be core mesmer territory. Mirage ought to be about perpetual deception and wearing opponents down as (thematically) they keep trying to find and hit you. Direct and condi should be similar in playstyle for mirage, with the whole thing heavily revolving around ambush, not shatter.

    Clone ambushing should simply be grandmaster minor, at this point I can't see the game being possible to balance properly any other way.

    Your F4 I agree with and can see this going in this direction - as what happened with Chrono F4 - eg player gains 1s Distortion and all clones become mirage mirrors.
    May be fairly weak, but this also would take into account if mirage cloak remains as it is in function - who knows if that may change also, given what Cal said.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Ambush skills from dodge are Mirage's main source of damage. Remember that this damage isn't very high in most situations, and without ambush... it's just trash. I like the idea of making shatters thematicaly (just like Chrono has), but it would need dmg boost or another good source of damage.

    Commander, to ME!

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    and it's currently being looked at in PvP, and in WvW. Namely :

    Mechanic changes don't get split. It is going to be nerfed in PvE too due to PvP whine.

    Two things are to be considered here : mirage cloak offers a big evade uptime,

    It has less evade then the normal dodge it replaces.

    If you got those two things wrong why should I read the paragraphs of nerfs you want to slap on the class?

    I agree. If you think mirage has big evade uptime I immediately stop taking you seriously. Because you are parroting a talking point that is A LIE. To then make a list of nerfs to a class you don't understand is honestly disrespectful to the people that have been putting forth reasonable well thought post on the same issue. Please understand the class before trying next time.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    Hello,

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Two things are to be considered here : mirage cloak offers a big evade uptime, and infinite horizon offers a big pressure potential. The aim of my suggestion is to put forward an idea on that topic. Mirage is a very thematic elite specialization with 3 specific mechanics : mirage cloak, ambushes, and mirage mirrors. In my opinion, mirage mirrors still haven't found their place in gamestyles, and I'd like to shed more light on them as well with that idea.

    I don't agree about your start assertion :

    • mirage cloak didn't offer more "big evade uptime" than any class with a better vigor uptime and there is plenty who have better than mesmer.
    • infinite horizon didn't offer "big pressure" potential considering the dps + animation + cast + delay ratio and have a long setup before start doing something.

    Then with this view :

    That said, the infinite horizon trait is problematic because it triggers ambushes for clones roughly each time there's an evade. Yet, the fact that mirage has a large evade access allows for a lot of pressure through infinite horizon. So the idea is simple : decorrelate the clone's access to ambushes and the mirage's evade.

    mirage hasn't a large evade access.

    The core idea is to replace all the shatter skills by command skills. Commands skills would be the F-skills. They wouldn't shatter clones, but deal no direct damage. The new F-skills would then be :

    • F1 : Assign your clones a new target. No damage whatsoever, so a fairly low CD will do.

    Is it a PvE change ?
    You know that in PvP clone lifetime is around 3 sec ?
    Why retargeting something who didn't do anything and die in 1 hit ?

    • F2 : Infinite horizon commands the clones to use their ambush skill on their current target. Inherits Mind Wrack's traits. With Mind Wrack's 12s CD, it'd automatically lower the pressure.

    Pressure who is already not that good but ok.

    • F3 : Randomly teleport your clones in a 600 radius around their target. Target enemy gets confusion stacks like Cry of Frustration. Inherits Cry of Frustration's traits.

    Why not.

    • F4 : turns all your clones into mirage mirrors

    Why not it's interresting.

    Infinite horizon trait becomes a command, and so does desert distorsion. The last "top" trait is self deception, and I'd also like to see it replaced with these 3 suggestions :

    • Instead of self-deception, a trait that'd generate a clone when a mirage mirror is shattered. The idea is to promote mirage mirrors, and lower a bit the clone generation.

    There is already never used trait in mirage who can do that.

    • Instead of desert distorsion, a trait that'd trigger "minor arcane thievery".

    Better use the already dead trait who is supposed to remove (copy) the boon when mirage cloak...

    • Instead of infinite horizon, a trait that'd be focused on deceptions, and I've no clear idea about it beyond the usual CD reduction. It'd be nice and thematic to have something with mirrors as well. Something around the idea of sadistic searing like : if you shatter a mirror, your next deception skill confuses enemies in a given radius.

    Why not.

    To sum it up :

    Thematically, mirage would be more focused on evasion and deception through "images" which actually are clones. As a result Mirages don't shatter their clones. Instead of that, they command their clones with specific orders : get a new target (F1), use their ambush skill (F2), confuse their enemy (F3), turn into a mirage mirror (F4). Mirage lose the ability to daze, just like Chronomancer lost the ability to distort.

    As part of these command skills are built from traits, they'd get traits more focused around mirage mirrors, to make that mechanic more appealing. Mirage mirrors could thus : provide clone generation, trigger arcane thievery, or give deceptions a boost.

    Whatever happens, the mirage still gets mirage cloak as an evade just the way it is, and its own ambush skill would work all the same as actually.

    Any thoughts ?

    Well, apart the base and considering shatter are already dead on mirage apart few F3,F4 there are interesting suggestions but becarefull because many need a good clone generation to be efficient who will lock mesmer into duelling deceiptive evasion which is probable better to thing about other trait lines synergies.
    Note that some were already suggested.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    Hello,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It doesn't matter whether I got right or wrong the evade uptime question, or the "big pressure" one. I probably wasn't clear on the fact that it's not my opinion. The core thing is : the devs are aiming at "putting everything back in line", which means "nerf everything", and Mirage Cloak has been especially quoted in the forecoming PvP balance changes topic. That means that, whether it's a lie or not, whether you like it or not, the devs will do something about that.

    Which leaves you two options : either you stick to what you're used to, and what you consider you're a specialist of (and you probably are), but you have to expect the nerf bat to come soon, and turn Mirage into a clunky useless elite because of insane nerfs on its core mechanics. Just think of what happened to scourge : the matter is not what it was (OP or whatever), the thing is what it has become, and I don't think it's an enviable situation. The other option is to accept your doom, and suggest something.

    Being said that infinite horizon and mirage cloak will probably get something unpleasant in the near future, I just made that suggestion.

    I'd like to remind that my suggestion involves no change to mirage cloak beyond the rework of infinite horizon that'd become a command instead of a passive proc. As for the damage values, keep in mind that it's a context where every damage should be toned down for everyone.

    That doesn't make my suggestion more relevant, but some critics really seem to be out of place under that light.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • @ThomasC.1056 said:
    the devs are aiming at "putting everything back in line", which means "nerf everything"
    As for the damage values, keep in mind that it's a context where every damage should be toned down for everyone.

    Balance is achieved through numerical changes (dmg, condi intensity and dura, CD...), not mechanical. You can dramatically ‘shake up’ balance by changing mechanics, but the effectiveness changing of mechanics always vary since the numerical values can be set from 0 to infinity (e.g. -50% nerfs).

    Which makes more sense - changing mechanics to balance, or balancing around (fixed) mechanics?

    If it’s inherently broken or makes balance easier, then sure, make mechanical changes. But as soon as you’re talking about ‘damage’ or ‘pressure’, this is the no-go zone. You are doing what they love doing and making balance unnecessarily more broken and harder to fix (i.e. no IP chrono, when they already made chrono-specific shatters with their own dmg/condi/dura/CD + actually interesting gameplay effects like Rewinder to play with).

    The other option is to accept your doom, and suggest something.

    Being said that infinite horizon and mirage cloak will probably get something unpleasant in the near future, I just made that suggestion.

    Being as far as a suggestion goes, how about suggesting less drastic changes? How about, ‘IH - clones only ambush when you ambush’? Remove evade while stunned? Maybe suggest shatters to be split from core so they can be balanced separately, but not suggest the janky ‘command’ system just yet?

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • TLDR
    remove F1
    remove F3
    nerf F4
    give IH 12s CD
    gut couple of traits.
    expected result : mirage becomes contender for the worst pvp spec with chronomancer.
    pve wise : power mirage goes from garbage to : other classes have more dps with auto them me with entire build
    condi goes from very strong to very weak/unplayable. This is what will most likely happen. 50% nerfs and trait disables until no more complaints about mesmers. PERIOD.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Hello,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It doesn't matter whether I got right or wrong the evade uptime question, or the "big pressure" one. I probably wasn't clear on the fact that it's not my opinion. The core thing is : the devs are aiming at "putting everything back in line", which means "nerf everything", and Mirage Cloak has been especially quoted in the forecoming PvP balance changes topic. That means that, whether it's a lie or not, whether you like it or not, the devs will do something about that.

    Which leaves you two options : either you stick to what you're used to, and what you consider you're a specialist of (and you probably are), but you have to expect the nerf bat to come soon, and turn Mirage into a clunky useless elite because of insane nerfs on its core mechanics. Just think of what happened to scourge : the matter is not what it was (OP or whatever), the thing is what it has become, and I don't think it's an enviable situation. The other option is to accept your doom, and suggest something.

    Being said that infinite horizon and mirage cloak will probably get something unpleasant in the near future, I just made that suggestion.

    I'd like to remind that my suggestion involves no change to mirage cloak beyond the rework of infinite horizon that'd become a command instead of a passive proc. As for the damage values, keep in mind that it's a context where every damage should be toned down for everyone.

    That doesn't make my suggestion more relevant, but some critics really seem to be out of place under that light.

    What you are proposing is not a "small mirage tweak".
    Making deceptive evasion clone not do ambush attack is small tweak, going around and ripping mechanic is not a small tweak, apply similar logic to whatever class you are maining and see how it goes, straight up remove 2-3 abilities, triple cooldown on one of the most improtant skills for your build, sit down and think what happens to it.
    Its easy to drop this kitten suggestions when you dont end up playing the mess that is left after.
    The dev that went with Chrono changes should be forced to play chrono in pvp every day untill he/she apologises for the mess he/she created.
    We dont need more druid/chrono in pvp. I personally dislike holo, but i dont go on subforums telling people to remove several abilities making them unplayable.
    and changes you propose will screw over pve side too, way to go!

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