Holo Trade-off — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Holo Trade-off

Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

Comments

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2019

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    wouldnt really work. Imagine fighting a warrior,which hits 1time per second or less and fighting an tanky revenant, which hits 5times a second.

    also it means, that the holo can be waaay longer in its high-damage form.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2019

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    wouldnt really work. Imagine fighting a warrior,which hits 1time per second or less and fighting an tanky revenant, which hits 5times a second.

    It could be changed to a per-skill basis. Anet has never done a defensive trait though that gives an effect on a per-enemy-skill basis. It's always per strike. Would be cool to be sure....

    edit: spelling

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2019

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Sure if soulbeasts get an adjustment where you die if your pet dies.

    This also doesn't add a trade off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Sure if soulbeasts get an adjustment where you die if your pet dies.

    This also doesn't add a trade off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play.

    I know you're just mocking me, but I actually think that would be a great idea.

  • both of the current trade offs you listed definitely fall way short but I don't think your idea is a solution.

  • But this would make holo impossible for ppl in low tier they would go to a team fight and insta die to necro a every time

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    The whole tradeoff thing was just another kitten brainfart anyway that has never been really consistently applied. The tradeoff on Holo obviously doesn't do much, but the coming nerfs on tuesday will be enough to remove holo from the meta anyway, at least the current build.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP content

  • JETWING.2759JETWING.2759 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Let's see:
    1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).
    2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).
    3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).
    4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.
    5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).
    6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.
    7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.
    8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.

    I see least 8 trade-off here.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @JETWING.2759 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Let's see:
    1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).
    2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).
    3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).
    4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.
    5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).
    6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.
    7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.
    8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.

    I see least 8 trade-off here.

    1. Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.
    2. See above
    3. Forge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.
    4. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    5. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    6. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    7. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    8. How many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.

    So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    In my opinion holosmith only needs one trade-off really. You should be giving up every single toolbelt skill. It may seem like overkill, but bear with me for a moment. Most of you must realize that core engi is possibly the worst core class in the game by quite a bit, with the only other core class coming close being ele. Core engi need lots of improvements. So many in fact, that I cannot see holosmith being balanced after all of that without having a huge trade-off like giving up all the toolbelt skills. We already know what a solid core class + strong elite spec looks like. It's guardian with firebrand that's the main example. A solid core class with a very powerful spec that barely has a trade-off for what you get. It is the undisputed meta support in every single game mode, making other supports nearly irrelevant.

    I would really rather see such a harsh trade-off with real core engi improvements. The same way I'd also like to see targeted nerfs in overperforming weaver abilities like the evades and primordial stance, while the devs work on making core ele actually solid. The core ele weapons are pretty outdated, especially staff. If the weapons are outdated, the class mechanic is also outdated, since attunements = more weapon skills. If it's too strong, just change weaver even more and make the core #3 skills inaccessible.

    Basically I really dislike how certain elite specs hold core class improvements back so much and thus become the only way to play.

  • Overheat damage should be nerfed but should still apply when you deactivate photon forge, dealing more damage based on how much heat you have built up. This way if you spam forge skills you take more self damage. Maybe this could justify their insane self healing.

  • JETWING.2759JETWING.2759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @JETWING.2759 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Let's see:
    1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).
    2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).
    3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).
    4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.
    5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).
    6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.
    7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.
    8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.

    I see least 8 trade-off here.

    1. Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.
    2. See above
    3. Forge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.
    4. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    5. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    6. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    7. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    8. How many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.

    So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant.

    No other class has this kind of drawback.
    Look at Reaper, Berserker or Scrapper, for example. They just go ahead to their targets without fear anything...
    What if Reaper takes self damage and loss half of his hp case life force ends while in Shroud???
    What if Spelbreaker takes self burn when use his F1 skill?
    What if Soulbeast can't enter beast mode and get his respective pet skills locked case this pet dies or the Ranger enter in downed state?

    It's a heavi drawback... Puts the Engi on constant pressure against himself + each adversary.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Holos inflicted by burning gains 15 heat per second.
    Holos inflicted by chill loses 15 heat per second.

    /s

    I have suggested this as well a long time ago... seems logical to me, but well..

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @JETWING.2759 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @JETWING.2759 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Let's see:
    1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).
    2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).
    3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).
    4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.
    5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).
    6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.
    7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.
    8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.

    I see least 8 trade-off here.

    1. Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.
    2. See above
    3. Forge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.
    4. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    5. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    6. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    7. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    8. How many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.

    So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant.

    No other class has this kind of drawback.
    Look at Reaper, Berserker or Scrapper, for example. They just go ahead to their targets without fear anything...
    What if Reaper takes self damage and loss half of his hp case life force ends while in Shroud???
    What if Spelbreaker takes self burn when use his F1 skill?
    What if Soulbeast can't enter beast mode and get his respective pet skills locked case this pet dies or the Ranger enter in downed state?

    It's a heavi drawback... Puts the Engi on constant pressure against himself + each adversary.

    UH what about the nerf to necro rez? the unholy signet I think it is with the 50% hp damage for nerf.

    Granted this isn't a nerf to reaper at all, more of a nerf to rez and the unholy signet gets a buff in generating 100% life force.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @JETWING.2759 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @JETWING.2759 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?

    Let's see:
    1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).
    2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).
    3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).
    4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.
    5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).
    6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.
    7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.
    8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.

    I see least 8 trade-off here.

    1. Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.
    2. See above
    3. Forge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.
    4. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    5. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    6. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    7. If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrong
    8. How many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.

    So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant.

    No other class has this kind of drawback.
    Look at Reaper, Berserker or Scrapper, for example. They just go ahead to their targets without fear anything...
    What if Reaper takes self damage and loss half of his hp case life force ends while in Shroud???
    What if Spelbreaker takes self burn when use his F1 skill?
    What if Soulbeast can't enter beast mode and get his respective pet skills locked case this pet dies or the Ranger enter in downed state?

    It's a heavi drawback... Puts the Engi on constant pressure against himself + each adversary.

    I went through the trouble of actually reading what you wrote when quoting and responding to you. Please return the courtesy.