Balance Patch Preview - WvW - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance Patch Preview - WvW

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  • wow .. what have guys been drinking ???? nerfing the heals to the ground!!! AT LEAST DONT TOUCH cONDI-CLENAS AND STAB!!!!!

    to me all of this looks like u guys wanna ruin ur game, since the amazon-MMO and Camelot unchained are about to be released!

    jeezes devs.. come to ur senses

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh boy the condi meta war has come.

    Probably be the usual suspects,

    Rev, necro,guard

    I'm all for nerfs but I hope you guys are thinking about the inc condition spam.

    I think with just the CC damage nerfs that wouldve reigned in alot of crazyness as they would loose alot dps. But the cc nerfs and power coefficients and vuln removals hmmm Im worried it might be too much a power damage does only one thing while conditions have alot more utility and currently can be incredibly bursty.

    Also I was hoping for some adressing of the the condi vs cleanse meta because it kills alot if build variety when your constantly worried about taking skills with cleanses rather than flavor or build craft and it also creats builds that are pretty much immune to conditions (i dont want condis to be unviable but it always seems like it swings too much to either side since the og specialization rework)

  • Suraci.1642Suraci.1642 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    300 secs on passive traits like Defy Pain or Final Shielding is just not the right path to go, people just gonna take something else and these traits will die out like Dune Cloak and Elusive Mind, if I play a mirage I would take Infinite Horizon every single time, this is just restricting the build diversity even more, consider rework on all of those traits to instead of making them completely negate all the damage for super long 300 secs cooldown to soaking up some of the damage like grant protection or barrier or new traits that reduce damage taken by 80% for 3 secs for a relatively short cooldown like 30 or 35 secs. This patch overall seems really barren and unhealthy, it is still just a number changing game instead of changing how a trait should work to fit a class's theme and a build's playstyle.

    300 secs cooldown, people just gonna refuse to engage and wait until their cooldown is back on, WvW will be Wait vs Wait, hey you thief and mesmer procced my oneshot defense guess I gonna wait 300 secs or 5 minutes and then we will fight again, wvw gonna be even more boring and horrible if it is not pathetic enough at current state. The flow of the game mode gonna be badly damaged.

    So sweet... So cold... if only the others could taste it...
    So...so good... The crunch of bones...makes it go away, only for a little while...

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    I've stop playing GW2 for a while because of the current meta.
    All theses changes are on a good direction , to try to bring back teamplay and counterplay with skillfull gameplay and reward.
    Just stop whine about "why you nerfed this ..." Cal and System team is trying to fix the issue of the current meta in WvW and this is the first step.
    I was very scepticale about all previous changes but @Cal Cohen.2358 and your team makes me feeling you're on the way to do great change.

    You have my trust.

  • simply nerfing everything and tweaking stuff is a great start. First time in many years, that i'm seeing proper balance for WvW, great stuff. I eagerly await future balances!

  • @Jables.4659 said:
    Reducing Mirage's dodges to 1 is absolutely ridiculous.

    The amount of Vigor uptime you can still get as a Mirage, coupled with Energy & Cleansing Sigils, would be broken if we were to keep two dodges. Means you would just spam dodges to negate the already nerfed Power dmg and then literally never die from Condi's.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Traveller.7496 said:
    So basically you nerfed everything? If I didn't know better I'd say ANet was getting ready to drop some new elite specs that are completely OP and nerf every existing build to the ground to prepare for it.

    No, this is just the thing they've announced months ago. People cried about too much damage in the game for years, now the damage (and healing cut) finally comes.

    On that note: What I feared became true and Warrior Hammer is no longer allowed to deal damage. My build got a lot less interesting, but we'll see.

    Ppl actually believing that we get an xpansion anytime soon, lol.

    The hammer thing i feared too, wrote that in some warrior thread too. Now 3 out of 6 skills (with f1) deal basically 0 dmg, and wont even do anything if the enemy has stab or alot of stunbreaks.
    We will see what happens in future patches.

    The biggest issue i see right now is stealt,because i didt see alot of changes that impact stealth uptimes. Paired with ALOT less dmg stealth classes will be unkillable. They will have an even easier time to reset fights. Yaaay.

    Edit:just remove passive traits like endure pain or balanced stance, instant reflexes etc. And give us something usefull. 300s cd is so not fitting for a game like gw2

  • At first sight these changes arent that good. But to give ANET the benefit of doubt.
    I would propose ANET to make a weekend testing event before completely implementing these changes

    If people most people like the changes then make the changes, if not then don't and make changes where necessary.

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Seriously. NO ONE likes these changes.

    That's demonstrably false.

    Sorry, I forgot bad players love the increased TTK, the bunker playstyle and condi emphasis.

    Enjoy playing this game with other people like you.

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • 7 years im here
    Hard to say this - those path what my love GW2 chose is so bad . . . my whole guild stop play from "balance" like those
    its only options in GW is to be a BERSERK and only that stats is place on the top

    why there in game is clerick or even wanderer or nomad stats? if game is only for those who play DPS

    healer in gw is a joke . . . i love this game i love to play healer or suport guardian but its so sad to cant make a full party of squad with full healers and suporter on rear ele on mid and fighters on front - i understand its a holy 3 mechanic but if those not work here ( if coop ) why in game outher stat

    i use mechanic in game like TANK and know what it works - all mobs fallow me - but why to be a tank, better buff all the time dps and i kill enemies in 2 hits and move far and faster - meybe you say im cry but take 20 dps players ( rangers elementalist and guardians ) and go any way on map stack on boss or take 20 ppl with healers buffers suporters amd few dps type of players and know what ? meybe they go same far as 1 squad but 60% slower

    RAIDs its the same sad proof about only dps is in the game - see tanks ? yaa with 1500-1600 toughnes or healer with 400 healing power - i got about 2k of healing power and its no use in this game

    want balance ? delete all stats and give only berserkers

    sorry for my bad english and want to say this what is pain in my heart

    im so sad the patch of my love game go . . .

  • anet, don't forget to nerf burn guard pls!

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    Everything here is just as premature as the preview, which is to be further modified in the future. There is no harm to discuss on what is proposed, though, so here we go.

    Increase in Time-to-Kill

    Healing Skills (#6), which are the primary source of healing for many builds not dedicated to this aspect, will take a 15%~33% reduction in baseline over time. (Some common numbers are 15%, 17%, 20%, 25%, 33%.) Meanwhile, Healing Coefficient of some skills take a varied degree of reduction, from 20% to 50%. As for shared, outgoing healing in group setting, I'll just leave the calculation to others who are dedicated to and know better than me of the healer classes.

    On the other hand, reduction in damage is much harder to quantify realistically. While control skills get a massive hit on Power Coefficient, they typically have a relatively longer cooldown, and do not make up as much total damage output with a few exceptions (for one, Reaper). A conservative estimation might be at least 30% baseline. (If you have a better overall number on this, please do correct me; though individually, as usual, your experience may vary.) This, of course, has not yet taken into account modifiers, some of which also get considerably reduced in their duration (e.g., Might) and/or effect.

    If the estimation is correct, with damage being reduced further than healing, while the overall health pools remain the same, attrition might comes out on top as the new paradigm. A well-timed burst will still be prominent for the offender based on direct damage, if not even more so due to modifiers with even more restricted time frame (for one, Might), though a missed opportunity for the receiving end to mitigate the attempt might be just more forgiving than ever since the first expansion. Hopefully we are finally getting rid of all those one-shot builds with little means to counter.

    Attribute Allocation

    Regarding sustain, the effectiveness of Toughness will likely give way to Vitality due to overall decreased Power Coefficient and rise of Condition pressure as predicted by the community, though with limited combination of attributes, we might not see any significant shift as such. On the other hand, with reduced incoming direct damage pressure, giving up toughness in favor of offensive attributes might just become more viable, and Rite of the Great Dwarf remains the best contingency plan for groups intending to push their limit.

    With the respect to Condition, do note that Cal Cohen has stated in the announcement that they will be "continuing to push conditions toward less burst potential by reducing the number of stacks and extending durations where it makes sense". Will this leave Expertise some potential, for that the attribute contributes more the higher the base durations are, or will it be completely neglected as how it is at the moment, due to constant cleansing and possibly Resistance, which might just start to prevail in response to the shift to condition pressure, or just the sheer enhanced baseline duration making further investment pointless? Will the attribute become actually viable? Is this is part of the intention to increase in variety? The developers have a delicate scale to maintain here. The same goes for features that reduce Condition Duration on self, which have long being obsolete and neglected.

    Combat Dynamic

    Professions with already abundance of active means to mitigate incoming damage will be even more difficult to tackle. The same goes for those with high mobility and means to kite their opponents. The time frame of an opening just might not allow enough damage to be done. That being said, not every class enjoys the privilege, or at least, not as much. Warrior, for one, has its Stance skills cooldown increased, though the class still has many other means to stay away from harm.

    In PvP, mobility, rotation and plus-one tactic probably will become even more crucial for the same reason. In WvW, that's ganking for roaming, and singling out opponents from the group with control to create a ganking scenario in any scaled-up combat. The prominence of Stability stripping and prevention of re-application also rises, and Spellbreaker, albeit with Wind of Disenchantment restricted to 5 targets, might be the sole key for direct damage bombing to work out if at all in the future.

  • Im not that good in figuring out of these are good or not! I hope this gives low level players or not experienced players a change to enjoy wvw

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Omg, huge nerfs on everything and everyone. But it's ok ANet... I stopped playing this game since two months ago. I found two new games and I am loving them so much. Enjoy your huge ' balance ' patch guys : D

  • santenal.1054santenal.1054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    no baseline grenadier? After 5 years of nagging by many engineers still not?
    What happens to the 0.5s fuse time of the "Short fuse" trait? it's just gone?
    incendiary powder nerfed even further after overnerf ... 1 burn stack for 4 seconds...ridiculous.
    The total removal of stability on "crystal configuration: eclipse" concerns me. (remove the second stability stack or increase the cooldown of corona burst instead)
    coolant blast already is a horrible healing skill, increasing cd from 20s to 25s makes no sense. 20s would make it competitive (and still lose out) with the other (nerfed) healing skills.

  • Rod.6581Rod.6581 Member ✭✭✭

    @allshallperish.4620 said:
    wvw new linkings <3 and only 4 tiers now AMAZING FINALLY, and now all these notes telling us everything we wanted to hear, maybe fights will last more than 30s now. No more 1 shotting people hopefully giving people more time to react. Nerf to boon rip and damage and healing really good proposed changes. Still more to do but for once i actually am looking forward to the future of this game.

    Coalescence of Ruin: Increased cooldown from 4 seconds to 10 seconds - no damage reduction, just cd

    Nah, u will still die of one shoot.

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CoeliJoeli.2139 said:
    Im not that good in figuring out of these are good or not! I hope this gives low level players or not experienced players a change to enjoy wvw

    That is the whole point of this patch. To help bad players survive a couple more seconds.

    Enjoy playing against equally bad players while all the good ones leave.

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • After reading this, I expect heavy condi tanks. This just change the meta form power to condi and it is the same cancer.
    The bigger issues are the stat combinations and elite specs, just sayin'.

    Well, i expect nothing good for that "huge balance patch" and I didn't get disappointed.
    Anyway, I stopped hoping for some decent balance patches ages ago.
    May, 26 2020!

  • LionZero.3479LionZero.3479 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    So much for glass-builds, guess that also means no more burst-threat, less squishies = less downed, and yet again promoting number advantage, but at least we can now all enjoy the passion of endless no threat fights.

    Owyeah almost forgot all the passive proc's doing damage on being damaged like retal,burn etc will all still be intact enough that on some power specs you'd soon deal more damage to yourself then attacking, brilliant ^^

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    Overall the changes are a good. They are a move in the right direction. I was always in favor of reducing dps, healing, boon and condi application and boon and condi removal. Scarcity promotes skillful gameplay, while abundance promotes skill spam, where missing 1 skill is not as impactfull as it should be. We will have to wait until it goes live to see what coefficients need some fine tuning.

    While the overall changes are great, there are some that I think should be reconsidered:

    -Passive procs going to 300s. I support nerfing passive procs, but 5 minutes is too long of a cooldown for anyone to even consider using a trait. I believe that 180s would more fair.

    -Elementalists' twist of fate going from 40s to 75s cd is too much. Considering weaver is already getting CD increases in sword #2 (water and earth) there is no need to increase Twist of Fate cd by that much. 50-60s would be fair ground. We have to keep in mind that there is no trait to reduce stances cd like other skill have.

    -Mirage having only 50 endurance. I hate the current traillblazer scepter staff mirage that is god tier and requires nearly no skill to play, but that does not mean we should destroy the entire specialization. The nerfs to scepter #2 cd, staff #2 and #3, blink cd, decoy cd and the removal of stun break on evade are already enough to balance the class.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:
    Anyway in mass scale PvP, WvW new meta based on current patch notes will be condition with full scale pirateship, something we experienced before and utterly hated.

    Can you not speak for me, when you talk "we experienced and utterly hated". I prefer pirate ship any time over this "stack, stealth, steamroll" meta.

    Trust me, I never enjoy making these remarks, I prefer discussions here on the merits of what people say and how they say it. However, who you are actually matters in these situations. If you are an anonymous ranged player who enjoy following a pickup commander then your enjoyment of the game is hitched to the commander's enjoyment of the game. That makes your oppinion matter far less on these matters. If you are not that kind of player, then by all means keep enjoying whatever you help create. Just make sure that you actually help create it. So if you don't like being spoken for, make sure that you are in a position to speak for yourself. Alot of people make the mistake of assuming that they are a positive force by just being around which isn't necessarily true.

    The problem with every pirateship meta is that they have made commanders and guilds quit. Melee metas have not. Oppinions beyond that is less relevant.

  • @anonymous.7812 said:
    Cal,

    If you can before the patch, please also look at Siege damage and health, since our damage will be nerfed against them. Also - for the love of jebus - Banners. At the very least Dragon Banner, it's not getting nerfed based on these notes, but should be.. it has strong CC and pretty good damage currently - it'll be abused to high heavens if this goes through. It also triggers traits, which is always fun getting immob'd when bannered.

    For real, this. Even now the other group having a dragon banner when yours does not basically ruins the larger fights. It doesn't help that there is no account-based cooldown on who can pick up the banner so when you have trolls on your own server you have no defense against them.
    The siege is a mess to deal with already. Too many players just sit in their towers/keeps/etc. just manning siege. It's already extremely difficult to overcome, and the offensive group does not get anything to the effect of "keep fighting for WXP every 3-4 minutes!"

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    At first:

    Warrior: Shield
    Shield Stance: Increased power coefficient from 25 seconds to 30 seconds (should be cooldown)

    and second WHY DOES EVERYTHING GETS NERFED TO DEATH EXCEPT WARRIOR

    REVS SHIELD IS STILL kitten³

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    o well i was expecting good changes, why did i fool my self even :D

    i mean this probably the worst patch i've seen over multiple games.
    lets just lower every1 dmg/healing and increase CD on skills, touché guys i couldnt have thought of anything else..

    hopefully im wrong and this change is actually mad good but as i look at it now even more people will bail out from WvW :(

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i thought and hoped you are going to stop the boon spam...

  • Nerfing stability, healing (coefficients) and damage sounds great for big zerg fights. But in my experience 2/3s of WvW is small scale. From the looks of it, these changes may cause small scale fights to suffer with more instances where players just cannot kill each other.

    If we're seeing ~25-30% nerfs to damage, we need slightly higher nerfs to base healing in order to compensate. I get that the goal is to greatly cut down spike damage, but attrition damage over time arguably needs to be slightly higher than the damage nerf for combat to work. ~50% nerfs on healing coefficients are huge but this ONLY affects dedicated healing power sets which means the majority of players will self-heal just as well as before. I didn't math out the cooldown and base healing changes to be able to call this but it's something needs to be balanced right so that sustain isn't infinite and small scale fights never resolve.

    Next, the universal nerf on hybrid cc/utility skill effects isn't well thought out. It's just lazy. To take a random example:
    "Gale Strike: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.275 to 0.01. Reduced bleeding duration from 5 seconds to 1 second"
    It continues to do no damage but the small amount of bleeding is reduced by 500%. This is a directional melee range skill with a 3/4s cast time. That means it almost never hits. The reward? 1.25s float (and no damage). The pre-nerf skill is already rarely worth using so what is the purpose of removing the already small hybrid damage component? It makes the skill pointless. And this isn't an on-demand CC either. It's a duel attunement skill that takes two specific attunement swaps to access (4-8 seconds). Just because a skill has a weak CC effect doesn't mean it should only CC. Particularly if the CC itself isn't buffed. There are more meaningful ways to nerf than making all CC skills only do CC which is boring, lazy and in many cases makes the skill pointless. Nerf cooldown, make it cast longer, etc...

    Another case:
    Tornado: Reduced power coefficient of the base launch attack from 1.1 to 0.01. Reduced cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds
    Debris Tornado: Reduced power coefficient from 0.5 to 0.01
    Dust Charge: Reduced power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.01
    Whirlpool: Reduced power coefficient from 2.2 to 0.01

    Why though? I haven't seen an elementalist using tornado in years so this must be a meme. Universal nerfs for the sake of some kind of top-down abstract design principle is stupid and lazy. This isn't even a testing or balance issue. You can see right away it's just a lazy application of someone's top-down design decision they want to apply to everything equally. Just, no to this idea of universally making all CC skills do only that. **It's possible for a skill to have a minor CC as a secondary/hybrid effect that is much too weak to be the entire purpose of the skill. **

    If we're talking about a real CC like Static Field, okay that CC effect actually pulls weight so sure nerf it to 0.01.

    Also not a fan of the big duration increases on some utility skills, but yes, the counterplay point is taken. Will 70 second cooldowns on minor utility skills make things more fun? It might change some fight dynamics but in general less skills to use = less fun. We'll see I guess.

    The last concern is with the overall nerf of burst damage for burst classes. Thief (which I don't play myself) is already not a strong class in WvW and it's only purpose is burst. Take away the burst from thief and what is the point? Not all classes are affected equally by a seemingly universal damage nerf.

    TLDR: damage/stability/healing nerf = good. The way it's being done may cause problems and in some cases is just blatantly wrong and lazy.

  • santenal.1054santenal.1054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    There are still going to be perma protection spam builds (some of which shouldn't exist) . Nerf the protection boon and give toughness to those who need it as compensation or get rid of it entirely and let the equiped weapon type per class determine what thoughness buffs you get. (with melee weapons giving more thoughness then range weapons).

    Everything that grants resistance should be cut down to 3 sec or less.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    At first:

    Warrior: Shield
    Shield Stance: Increased power coefficient from 25 seconds to 30 seconds (should be cooldown)

    and second WHY DOES EVERYTHING GETS NERFED TO DEATH EXCEPT WARRIOR

    REVS SHIELD IS STILL kitten³

    What are you on about? Warrior gets nerfed just like everything else. Hammer build got completely neutered and that was the main thing in WvW. Now it's 100% a boon removal weapon because all the damage numbers are essentially gone, thanks to almost everything being a CC and the new baseline "high damage" skills they've set out to balance for. Have you seen the cooldown on passive stances? These traits are trash now. It's probably best to use them, get out of combat and switch them for the next fight because 5 minute cooldown is just ridiculous on a trait. Warrior can no longer survive running through a zerg with bubble unless he slots them specifically in his skill bar and even that is not enough if you have to push through a choke probably.


    I agree with people saying this will result in unkillable zergs just clashing over and over again without downs, but I don't think we can say for sure. Tanky classes probably get away with more, although as I mentioned warrior won't have stances as easily available anymore. All in all I have to say I prefer being "weak" over being one shot. Numbers can still go up, but this massive changelist is a gigantic first step in the right direction. Rather overnerf upfront than later. Everything on a low level is easier to balance than when you just rush from one extreme to the other. So many "op" builds were found after other aspects of classes were nerfed, which then subsequently had to be nerfed etc. it keeps going and going, leaving some classes in the dirt while others are problematic, yet never on a level that high that they will be immediately killed off.

    I rather choose death.

  • jakolasku.4971jakolasku.4971 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    Arrow carts are the winners of the patch. With all the healing coefficient nerfs they just annihilate blobs. I am going to bring them to open field battles as well.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358

    So players will have to get more organized to whom is in defensive gameplay and offensive.

    TDLR: more comunication and more organization will be needed, more call spikes, call targets will be needed, in theory those seam good values.

    I dont mind ventari big heal geting reduced a bit more in future in trade of heal 10 players like the facets, rather than the useless orbs, ventari should have the option(IMO) to heal less and more targets, in case of the game gets lackluster in terms of heals.

    Btw rip my 13k passive regen build for 10 players(1.3k * 10) with a aoe 12k heal every 3-4 sec :}

    @Vova.2640

    I can still see alot of diversity but based on player objectives in the party (more than the current and only way to play wich leads to same builds on FB,scourge,warrior,scrapper zerg comp)
    Having one meta wich is what is called lack of diversity, this will make players more avaliable to mix n match more stats.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    Today we’re previewing the upcoming balance update. We’re starting with a bit of process and general thoughts, then following up with a pile of patch notes. Note that this post is identical for the PvP and WvW subforums (minus the changes to PvP build items), but duplicated for the purpose of more easily obtaining mode-specific feedback.

    This post will only be discussing the competitive splits. Check out the rest of the update at https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96747/balance-patch-preview-global

    The scope of this update ended up being slightly unreal in the raw number of changes, but there are only a handful of underlying ideas that were then considered against every skill and trait in the game. It so happens that there are a lot of those around here, and so a lot of changes ended up being made.

    These changes are not final, and we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review. Some of the upcoming functional changes still need to be looked at for potential splits as well, but we feel that the overall list is in a good enough spot to gather feedback.

    Future Balance Cadence

    This patch is unusual in that it’s more about establishing a new paradigm than it is a regular balance update, and the result is a giant set of changes. Moving forward with competitive balance, we want to make smaller adjustments more often. The specific cadence for balance will always depend on our overall release schedule, but ideally it will be closer to every 4-6 weeks, while still having the opportunity to make minor tweaks outside of the regular balance update. The goal here is to have better flexibility to fix problems in a timely manner.

    PvP and WvW

    For this initial update, the bulk of the splits are being applied to both PvP and WvW because the underlying ideas are applicable to both modes. The end result is going to be radically different and moving forward we will be doing more separation and targeted adjustments on a per-mode basis.

    Now we’re going to dive into more detail on some of the main targets of the update and our main goals moving forward. If you have no interest in power coefficients, damage calculations, or other assorted jargon you may want to scroll down until you hit the start of the patch notes.

    Damage

    For this update, we’re targeting a 2.0 power coefficient as the new baseline for big damage skills. These are the skills like Eviscerate; skills that exist to deal large amounts of damage and not do much else. Skills that provide more and more value in other aspects (cc, sustain, mobility, defense, etc.) will have lower power coefficients. In some cases, we’ve pared down the secondary value and in others we’ve shaved the damage. It really comes down to what the desired purpose of the skill is, and as such how much of the skill’s power budget should be spent on damage. The 2.0 is not a hard cap, just the general top-end for single hit, high damaging abilities.

    One thing to keep in mind with damage calculation is the differences in weapon strength. For example, a 2.0 coefficient with an axe is approximately equivalent to a 1.82 coefficient with a hammer due to the hammer’s higher weapon strength.

    With a marauder amulet and no outside modifiers, a 2.0 coefficient with a 1-handed weapon equates to about a 3.9k crit against a light-armor target. Our goal here is that players should need to invest into damage traits, slot offensive utility skills, and sequence abilities around might and vulnerability stacks in order to achieve significant damage numbers.

    Condition damage reductions are a bit less math-y, but we’re continuing to push conditions toward less burst potential by reducing the number of stacks and extending durations where it makes sense. Some of this is handled on the skill level, and we’re also making heavy reductions to traits that apply conditions on hit, on crit, or on other conditions being applied.

    Cooldowns and Durations

    We want cooldowns to be felt. Longer cooldowns promote more calculated usage of skills; if skills are used poorly it should create an opportunity for the enemy to push their advantage. Shorter durations of high impact buffs have a similar effect. Skillful timing is going to be rewarded, and poor usage is going to be exploitable by enemies. In some cases, it’s still going to make sense to have a longer duration attached to a longer cooldown, but most of the time we’re looking at shorter durations for things like stability, protection, quickness, high might stacks, among others.

    Sustain

    Raw healing is always going to be closely tied to damage. As damage comes down, healing needs to be reduced as well. As mentioned above, we want to see more opportunity between cooldowns to push through damage, so we’re primarily targeting skills and traits with lower cooldowns or constantly pulsing heals.

    Instant Skills and Passive Traits

    Counterplay is important. Skills that have a major impact on an enemy player should allow that player the opportunity to react, which means that we want to avoid instant skills that do large amounts of damage or hard cc. In general, this means that instant skills are going to deal less damage or focus more on a secondary effect where applicable. Traits that fire instant skills, or that trigger an offensive effect under easy to fulfill conditions (on hit, on crit, mid-high health threshold, etc.) received similar considerations.

    We’ve also done a pass on traits that provide automatic defensive triggers. Traits that negate incoming CC or grant hard damage mitigation are getting large cooldown increases. Lesser defensive procs (protection on cc, auto condition cleanse, etc.) are also receiving longer cooldowns or reduced effectiveness, though not as extreme. We want to promote more active gameplay and this update is a good opportunity to make heavier adjustments to these passive traits.

    Patch Notes

    Moving on to the patch notes. Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have some time to iterate. We look forward to seeing your feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    I posted this in the other thread, but figured I’d ask here too...

    “Questions...

    Are there any future plans to improve team gameplay mechanics for heal and non-heal support roles and builds? Examples...

    "Druid is clunky to heal with and some ideas would go a long way... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39412/eye-on-druid-ideas-yay.

    Ventari Tablet would be leaps more enjoyable if it were a "back pack", not a tablet that needed to be moved around trying to heal the cat herd.

    Ele healer is most "fluid" of them all, but still feels uninspiring. Frustrating to heal teammates outside of tight blobs."

    Any plans to rework the contentious stealth mechanics? Example... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60005/stealth-rework-2-0

    Any plans to reevaluate the Condition system? Example... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29999/condi-system-rework-2-0

    Any plans to reevaluate the out-dated resource mechanics? Example... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91980/resource-mechanics-need-to-go-and-competitive-gameplay-will-be-better-for-it

    Any plans to improve lesser used weapons for pvp and wvw? Examples...

    "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/32525/if-you-want-more-build-diversity-then-we-need-to-work-on-weapons-too
    GW2 Path of Fire was released on September 22, 2017, and Ranger daggers still only have a niche use in pve… https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/568/daggers-need-redo-and-backstab.

    Roam around in wvw and try getting into fights while using Reaper GS, and any competent player will pick you apart more often than not… hence the thoughts behind these… https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necro-ideas.

    Playing melee can suck much of the time, especially when ranged skills can hit super hard and there are a ton of melee weapons devoid of positioning, mobility and gap closers... Hence suggestion like these...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56624/warrior-needs-more-ranged-weapon-options

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54848/melee-weapon-improvements-please

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9819/greatsword-changes

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/25754/necro-needs-movement-skills-tied-to-weapons

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9688/sugg-core-necro-needs-a-melee-weapon"

    Will there be any larger shifts or changes that tackle some of the root causes of balance issues and frustrations with the game? Example... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing

    Any plans to improve visual aspects of combat gameplay? Example... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67283/i-would-like-to-discuss-visual-tells-for-wvw

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arctisavange.7261 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The difference is now you can't spam your cleanses and it'll be OK. Cleanse Tempest will still heal well and provide great AoE cleansing power.

    If you have problems with conditions in the new meta it's probably you or the guy next to you that's playing badly and got too used to spamming skills and winning because that's how the game has been for the last 5 boring, tooth pulling years of expansion power creep.

    TLDR: git gud scrubs.

    Condis can be spammed hard right now and even after patch. The only reason people havent noticed any of this is cause of power creep overshadowing condition due to direct and bit of bigger damage.

    If right now a 50 man blob would go over to full condi, you would kitten your pants seeing how many conditions they can chunk out.
    The last condition meta before current one died out cause of antitoxin rune which was nerfed to the ground ages ago and cause of power creep being a better alternative.

    The condi cleanses you apply right now in power creep meta are against passive conditions that are just addons from the power skills. Theres a difference fighting in a meta with condition as main DPS with extra condis as passive addons over fighting in a meta with power as main DPS and as condition as a passive addons.

    TLDR: learn the game.

    Condition clears have long outpaced condition application assuming you're not standing in a focal point of a 50 man group.

    If conditions were remotely an option in large scale you would be seeing people playing or at least experimenting with condition builds and comps but it's not because Firebrand exists.

    Guess what? Firebrand will still exist with very little reduction in it's anti condition power, tempest loses some of it's 10 target but gets a reduction in aftershock CD so it's only a slight reduction in strength. You still have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_4:_Stalwart_Stand + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Lore un touched, depending on how rez skills play out you can run another cleanse which hasn't been touched. Relevant changes below.

    Eternal Oasis: Reduced number of conditions converted to boons from 5 to 2
    Radiant Recovery: Reduced number of conditions cleansed from 2 to 1
    Overload Water: Reduced pulse heal coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. Reduced target cap from 10 to 5
    Eye of the Storm: Reduced superspeed duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 35 seconds
    Aftershock: Reduced total power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.1. Increased immobilize duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced protection duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds

    TLDR: git gud, dodge bombs.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @reddie.5861 said:
    o well i was expecting good changes, why did i fool my self even :D

    i mean this probably the worst patch i've seen over multiple games.
    lets just lower every1 dmg/healing and increase CD on skills, touché guys i couldnt have thought of anything else..

    hopefully im wrong and this change is actually mad good but as i look at it now even more people will bail out from WvW :(

    +1

    Here is a perfect example of what's going to happen:

    (It is like hiring a pest control to eliminate rodents at your residence and intentionally leaving rodents specimens behind...untouched and patting themselves on their back and saying, 'hey, we did a good job' )

    A specific 'Specimen' Stealth is intentionally being left behind, untouched and we are supposed to put a big smile on our faces??

    -After many years of knowing and experiencing the Truth; i believe we clearly get-the-picture of the deception-

    that we, you and i are not stupid

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    "Executioner's Scythe: Reduced power coefficients from 2.0/2.6/3.2 to 0.01/0.015/0.02 (Above 50%/Below 50%/Below 25%). Increased stun duration from 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds" This is hilarious.....a skill that is so obviously telegraphed from space and so slow as that it barely works in PvE and you take all it's damage and increase a stun that is never likely to land in the first place against a player.....why not just put an empty slot in it's place. What a bunch of kitten, painfully obvious not one of you have ever played a Reaper!

  • it's okay, we just bring zergs of omega golems now, at least they'll still do damage and should be basically invincible :expressionless:

    arenanet, why did u even put your attention on the battles? nobody asked for that, outside of some weirdos maybe. the whole format needed some polishing, instead now everybody will have to re-learn it, which is more than uncomfortable (or likely will be that, from how the update notes read).

    still the main issues will be there: no new content, no motivation to play (rather even the annoyance to get new Wvw-builds with special cooldowns to learn?)

    since neither maps, eotm nor invisibility (we will never catch that one hiding thief in a keep now.. i mean we can find him like usual [or not], but thiefs don't die from slaps with wet noodles; before, a thief could out-dance up to 10 people, do we now have a freaking zerg hunt them? clap clap) got touched, and the alliance system is still not even discussed, the rewards are still lackluster... tbh no idea where to start even. all the things that have been asked for were dropped, and instead "YOOO heard you like new class _balance _, everything sucks now"

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    So, I can't help but wonder. With all the damage nerfs across the board, does this mean NPCs and Keep champs are going to be an absolute young feline to kill now?

    that'll be the least problem. you still have the option to invest WvW-points (mastery) into dmg against guards, each single Wvw-infusion gives "+1 dmg against guards etc" afaik

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    i have no idea yet, what this is going to be in field. but for example, (after a not very detailed reading since it's post 2am and some beer here) prime light beam (holo) power coefficient drop from 3.0 to 0,01? so we toss that elite simply, because that's never ever worth even firing on anybody... and do condi-trash gets their nerf too? i didn't catch that, but most dmg-nerfs look from afar a bit directed towards power)

    It has a 5 target unblockable launch effect, all the control skills have had their damage reduced, it also was reduced from 60 to 40s cooldown to compensate.

    it will still be rather pointless, unless we can play condi-holos now, which might become the case. dmg-bursts alone aren't getting anywhere with this. the cooldown of a slow skill that does not regular dmg is questionable, will depend on how this finally plays out; there might be other elite specs to go for now. a fully charged prime light beam before could fail yet to do more than 70% to a thief on a direct hit - the cooldown does likely not make up for the huge loss of effective damage on powerDps builds.

  • So, let me get this straight

    You're putting a skill lock on Ele's obsidian flesh, but Warrior STILL gets to use their weapons during defiant stance?

    You're making it really difficult for me to respect you, Aenet.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    TL;DR none of us have any idea what's going to happen in practice, on the field. The changes are just that many and that extreme it changes every class interaction in combat.

    Personally, I am mostly worried about these ever increasing cooldowns in order to "balance" skills (in particular the ridiculous 90->300s) and they are just making the combat unfun. Its not just this patch, it's been going on for a while. GW2 at its best is quick play-counterplay. The enemy pops a skill, you dodge. You pop a skill, the enemy block. The enemy stealth, you AoE knockdown. I'm all for skills doing less things at once and damage being weaker but the cooldowns... man...

    Anet. Look. I want to fight. Not sit and wait for cooldowns.

    I want to have fun.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    PLease Arenanet consider balancing stealth. Give some counterplay to it or nerf the insane stack duration. At this rate both roaming and the keeps will be full of deadeyes as they cannot be burst down anymore. Cap stealth per minute or something, I don't care how but address it

    +1

    Next phase of Toxicity is Chaos

    All Deceptive Masks Off

    Prepare for Chaos

  • Gryxis.6950Gryxis.6950 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thundabolt.8541 said:
    So, let me get this straight

    You're putting a skill lock on Ele's obsidian flesh, but Warrior STILL gets to use their weapons during defiant stance?

    You're making it really difficult for me to respect you, Aenet.

    You can cc a war during defiant stance, it's not the same as an invulnerability

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @God.2708 said:
    Most people here are looking at the patch through the current balance paradigm's lense and it is making their ability to judge the patch very cloudy.

    ...Instead of looking at the patch though the lenses of the remaining developers, which had no clue about how the game worked in the competitive parts of the game and never tested the truckload of changes that they will introduce suddenly, with no remorses...

  • jakolasku.4971jakolasku.4971 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2020

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    Will this leave Expertise some potential, for that the attribute contributes more the higher the base durations are, or will it be completely neglected as how it is at the moment, due to constant cleansing and possibly Resistance, which might just start to prevail in response to the shift to condition pressure, or just the sheer enhanced baseline duration making further investment pointless? Will the attribute become actually viable?

    Expertise becomes worse the longer the base duration of the condition is due to a higher likelihood of getting cleansed. It works better for condition bursts.

  • @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Thundabolt.8541 said:
    So, let me get this straight

    You're putting a skill lock on Ele's obsidian flesh, but Warrior STILL gets to use their weapons during defiant stance?

    You're making it really difficult for me to respect you, Aenet.

    You can cc a war during defiant stance, it's not the same as an invulnerability

    So just run CC on everything now, is that what you're suggesting?

  • Well, without even considering that condis are going to be completely overpowered and will be nerfed many times in subsequent patches after this one gets released (i've been playing wvw since core and have thousands of hours, it's as clear as the sky and if no relevant changes are made time will just prove me right), what makes me laugh (and triggers me) the most is that together with the nerfs they are making to skills and traits that needed to be nerfed, because they were just far too good compared to the other options, they nerfed the other options too, just to make sure none of them will get viable and we'll be playing the same skills anyway, just nerfed or condi builds instead.
    Like, come on, take the guard for example: Hold the Line? Hallowed Ground? Signet of Restoration? EMPOWERING MIGHT? SWORD OF JUSTICE? who even thinks of using these? they are comepletely useless, so why make sure they will continue being so? this was a great occasion to bring some diversity to the game, so why are you making sure that won't happen? I would really like an answer to why clearly underperforming skills had to be tuned down as well, for i am completely sure that each of the skills i mentioned above, as well as many others, would still be as useless as they now are even if not changed.

  • Hi Devs,

    Can you tell me how are we going to fight against Bunker Builds with STATS like Sentinels, Knights, Givers, Minstrels, Dire + the ridiculous ascended foods that gives you 10% damage reduction + more stats in WvW????

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DragonSlayer.1087 said:
    Hi Devs,

    Can you tell me how are we going to fight against Bunker Builds with STATS like Sentinels, Knights, Givers, Minstrels, Dire + the ridiculous ascended foods that gives you 10% damage reduction + more stats in WvW????

    Same as you always have.

    I know you peeps are use to fights lasting from 1-5s, but that’s not healthy. And it’s not like the reverse is removed, you still have tons of stats and modifiers for damage. Not the end of the world if fights last longer... And it’s not like, just about, everyone had complained about damage creep at one point or another.