Trash energy costs on weapons

It’s completely unnecessary to have both energy requirements AND weapon skill cool downs. I get that the energy design works well with certain slot skills, but having to resource manage weapon skills that are already limited by timers is overdone.

If they don't have cool down, the weapons skill will be very op imagine Scorchrazor 16 energy cost be used 4 time in row is 8 sec of knockdown + burning stacks with 900 range and to 5 foes. Yes this change probably make easy life instead of learn how to use a character effectively.

If you take away energy from weapons, you're making revenant's energy management even more shallow than it already is. What's the point of even having energy, if you're only going to use it for your upkeep?

What Anet must do is balance the numbers or adjust the skills so that either:A. Upkeep skills are situationally useful instead of being absolutely mandatory;or...B. Revenant has higher base energy (100 instead of 50) or lower energy costs across their entire kit so that a higher diversity of skills can be incorporated into rotations before legend swap becomes available again.

Let's imagine a reality where Revenant starts battle or swaps legends for 100 energy. Your upkeep skill wouldn't be enough to deplet your entire bar in 10 seconds (before legend swapping), forcing you to use high cost abilities to increase your DPS. For example, as a Mallyx user, you would throw a few Unyielding Anguishes into your rotation, besides the elite skill and the mace rotation. As a Kalla user, you would maintain 2-3 DPS summons. You would also be able to incorporate Renegade's F3 Citadel Bombardment into your rotation very easily.

The combination of 50 energy + upkeep skills being dominant is what makes PvE Revenant so boring.

Removing energy costs from weapons would also improve your rotation, but it would not fix the core issue with the class: that energy is poorly balanced.

Hammer is the one weapon for rev that has energy costs that feel good imo.

@Justine.6351 said:Hammer is the one weapon for rev that has energy costs that feel good imo.

I think Staff does a good job too. It’s a nice survival weapon with a powerful 5 Skill is the only real energy burner of note.

@Oshi.9324 said:If they don't have cool down, the weapons skill will be very op imagine Scorchrazor 16 energy cost be used 4 time in row is 8 sec of knockdown + burning stacks with 900 range and to 5 foes. Yes this change probably make easy life instead of learn how to use a character effectively.

I suggested to remove the energy cost to weapon skills... I never said remove cooldowns and only use energy.

Weapon attacks build energy... slot skills use energy. See?

Cd on weaponskills and energy on utilities.Weaponskills regenerate energy when used. The higher the CD the higher the energy generated.This would be great and it would give this energy management feeling.The heal should always have a normal CD and a low energy cost and the elite should always have a high energy cost.

if you compare revenant as heavy class with warrior and guardian weapon skills you wont see much difference from cd which with revenant should be lower as he also got nrg to take into account. also warrior and guardian have trait with reduce cd on weapon while revenant has not.only hammer seem with the best nrg and cd ratio while staff needs improvement.so in reality revenant is handicap by nrg although cd is needed indeed but some nrg/cd ratio must be fixed

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:If you take away energy from weapons, you're making revenant's energy management even more shallow than it already is. What's the point of even having energy, if you're only going to use it for your upkeep?

What Anet must do is balance the numbers or adjust the skills so that either:A. Upkeep skills are situationally useful instead of being absolutely mandatory;or...B. Revenant has higher base energy (100 instead of 50) or lower energy costs across their entire kit so that a higher diversity of skills can be incorporated into rotations before legend swap becomes available again.

Let's imagine a reality where Revenant starts battle or swaps legends for 100 energy. Your upkeep skill wouldn't be enough to deplet your entire bar in 10 seconds (before legend swapping), forcing you to use high cost abilities to increase your DPS. For example, as a Mallyx user, you would throw a few Unyielding Anguishes into your rotation, besides the elite skill and the mace rotation. As a Kalla user, you would maintain 2-3 DPS summons. You would also be able to incorporate Renegade's F3 Citadel Bombardment into your rotation very easily.

The combination of 50 energy + upkeep skills being dominant is what makes PvE Revenant so boring.

Removing energy costs from weapons would also improve your rotation, but it would not fix the core issue with the class: that energy is poorly balanced.

First off, I don't think removing energy cost from weapon skills will make the mechanic shallow. At that point it wouldn't be much different from thief's initiative, but on heal/utility/elite skills instead of weapon skills.

However, why are you ok with Rev having such a restrictive design? Of all 9 classes in this game, Rev is the only class who has to deal with both CD's and energy cost on their weapon skills. They are the only class, out of 9, that has 2 CD mechanics on their skills. That is inherently unfair and unbalanced. Sure, numbers may be tweaked, substantially, but as long as rev has 2 CD mechanics on their weapon skills it will never feel good, because its an artificia hamstring of the entire class.

Energy cost needs to be flat out removed from weapon skills, period.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:If you take away energy from weapons, you're making revenant's energy management even more shallow than it already is. What's the point of even having energy, if you're only going to use it for your upkeep?

What Anet must do is balance the numbers or adjust the skills so that either:A. Upkeep skills are situationally useful instead of being absolutely mandatory;or...B. Revenant has higher base energy (100 instead of 50) or lower energy costs across their entire kit so that a higher diversity of skills can be incorporated into rotations before legend swap becomes available again.

Let's imagine a reality where Revenant starts battle or swaps legends for 100 energy. Your upkeep skill wouldn't be enough to deplet your entire bar in 10 seconds (before legend swapping), forcing you to use high cost abilities to increase your DPS. For example, as a Mallyx user, you would throw a few Unyielding Anguishes into your rotation, besides the elite skill and the mace rotation. As a Kalla user, you would maintain 2-3 DPS summons. You would also be able to incorporate Renegade's F3 Citadel Bombardment into your rotation very easily.

The combination of 50 energy + upkeep skills being dominant is what makes PvE Revenant so boring.

Removing energy costs from weapons would also improve your rotation, but it would not fix the core issue with the class: that energy is poorly balanced.

While removing energy from weapons is not a bad idea as initial design, as of right now it is too much dev work for its worth. They cannot remove the energy outright because balance will go completely bonkers. Just think how broken Mallyx, Shiro or Glint without energy cost on weapons.

I think a better solution is to re-examine all skills with energy costs higher than 20 and consider lowering their energy costs and instill CDs instead. A consideration should also be given to raising the rest/reset energy from 50 to 55 or 60.

Though, Renegade is a clearly where the energy mechanics went way south. High energy + long CDs. Then add F2-F4 into the mix, where their energy costs is clearly not factored at all into a functional rotation, and they have long CDs on top. Regardless of how managing energy direction goes for rev (probably no where) you cannot have one resource used for weapons, utilities then F2-F4. It does not work.

I didn't propose removing energy, I just said remove it from weapon skills. And yea it will take a lot of work, rev has a shit class design right now due to having 2 CD mechanics. It needs a large re-work, and that's not something that can be shortcutted.

I don’t see how removing energy cost from WSs would make such a big impact. Extra few seconds on Shiro/Mallyx/Kalla upkeep skills? A definite buff, but hardly game breaking.

And it doesn’t make a lick of difference on non-upkeep utilities either.

Frankly I’m in favor of keeping the costs, but just massively buffing the passive energy regen.

@Selendile.9106 said:I don’t see how removing energy cost from WSs would make such a big impact. Extra few seconds on Shiro/Mallyx/Kalla upkeep skills? A definite buff, but hardly game breaking.

And it doesn’t make a lick of difference on non-upkeep utilities either.

Frankly I’m in favor of keeping the costs, but just massively buffing the passive energy regen.

Well, for one you'd be able to cast things like Banish Enchantment 4 times in a row or 3 near consecutive Jalis's taunts all while going hamm with your weapon sills (which also have cc built into them.)

But probably the bigger problem would be that you'd always have access to all of your blocks/evades/cc's despite how offensive you're playing. Right now, if a rev goes into a full burst combo and fails to down the target, they're unlikely to have the energy left afterwards to shield block or stun break or pop resistance, etc, which leaves them open to a counter. Without energy on weapons you'd always be able to switch to defensive play at a moments notice, which--I mean it would be great--but it would be way too strong.

@narcx.3570 said:

Without energy on weapons you'd always be able to switch to defensive play at a moments notice, which--I mean it would be great--but it would be way too strong.

So like every other class? Thats gross.. completely disgusting and all.

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

Without energy on weapons you'd always be able to switch to defensive play at a moments notice, which--I mean it would be great--but it would be way too strong.

My point exactly.

Cool down is fine on weapon skills, but they need to remove the energy requirment. Thieves must use initiative for their weapon skills, not their utilities. Why do revs get double the restrictions?

@Oshi.9324 said:If they don't have cool down, the weapons skill will be very op imagine Scorchrazor 16 energy cost be used 4 time in row is 8 sec of knockdown + burning stacks with 900 range and to 5 foes. Yes this change probably make easy life instead of learn how to use a character effectively.

Which is why you keep the CD, remove the energy cost, reduce the amount of energy per second (to zero if needed) and make your weapon skills generate energy. All utility skills still cost energy (more if needed).

You could also just remove the cost of weapon skills and keep the CD.

The energy on rev is so strange to work with, there are skills on my bar I literally never use.

@Burtnik.5218 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

Without energy on weapons you'd always be able to switch to defensive play at a moments notice, which--I mean it would be great--but it would be way too strong.

The difference is tho, that with the exception of Spellbreaker and Scourge no other classes have the combined offensive/defensive strength that a Rev can bring with one build tho... And the general consensus is that they're both pretty OP and are going to get nerfed hard before next season.

A guardian/ele/engi/ranger/mes has to choose with their build and utility choices whether they want to bunker down or actually be able to kill you. And thiefs don't really even have a choice in their play style. A rev can build 100% offensive (well, maybe Leadership runes still cuz cleanse) and last for a REALLY long time in a team fight as is. With no energy cost on a rev's weapons, you could put together literal undefendable murder combo's, and then still be able to chain your blocks and repeat the murder combo as soon as the cool downs come back all without ever really being at risk of dying.

@Selendile.9106 said:I don’t see how removing energy cost from WSs would make such a big impact. Extra few seconds on Shiro/Mallyx/Kalla upkeep skills? A definite buff, but hardly game breaking.

And it doesn’t make a lick of difference on non-upkeep utilities either.

Frankly I’m in favor of keeping the costs, but just massively buffing the passive energy regen.

Its about fundamental balance. Tell me why 1 and only 1 class should have 2 mechanics limiting how they can use their weapon skills? How is that balanced? Its not, and never will be. This isn't about being able to use your utility skills more (I would actually expect a rebalancing of how much energy they cost if energy was removed from weapon skills), its about balancing your access to your weapon skills to be consistent with that of other classes.

Hell, even if your weapon skills didn't have CDs, and thus only had the energy mechanic (not proposing this btw, it would be a bad idea), it would still be the most restrictive mechanic in the game limiting skill use, because it would be global among all of your skills instead of just your weapon skills.

This is purely about balancing rev's ability to use their weapon skills to be on par with other classes.

The higher restrictions allow revenant's skills to be individually stronger, and I'm fine with that. Balancing shouldn't be a big problem.

The real issue is how unfun revenant is in PvE when all you do is use your upkeep skill and (mostly) spam your AA. And there are many possible solutions to that, including lower energy costs, higher base energy or higher energy regen.

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:The higher restrictions allow revenant's skills to be individually stronger, and I'm fine with that. Balancing shouldn't be a big problem.

The real issue is how unfun revenant is in PvE when all you do is use your upkeep skill and (mostly) spam your AA. And there are many possible solutions to that, including lower energy costs, higher base energy or higher energy regen.

Ironically they went he same path with renegade.

Will see what the patch notes come up with. Renegade and reverent need much devs balance work.

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:The real issue is how unfun revenant is in PvE when all you do is use your upkeep skill and (mostly) spam your AA. And there are many possible solutions to that, including lower energy costs, higher base energy or higher energy regen.

And that could be fixed by removing energy cost from weapon skills.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Selendile.9106 said:I don’t see how removing energy cost from WSs would make such a big impact. Extra few seconds on Shiro/Mallyx/Kalla upkeep skills? A definite buff, but hardly game breaking.

And it doesn’t make a lick of difference on non-upkeep utilities either.

Frankly I’m in favor of keeping the costs, but just massively buffing the passive energy regen.

You misunderstand: I’m agreeing that they could be removed. I’m countering the viewpoint that “if energy cost on WSs were removed, they would be overpowered”.

What I really hate is the rev heal requiring energy. Pushing with a Zerg I got hammers going to reduce the damage get low anyway and can't friggin heal cause now I got no energy. I won't even play rev in wvw the way it is currently. It's trying to fill a niche that doesn't exist in the current meta.

The heal should be free and certain utilities need to be adjusted to just be on cd without an energy cost and leave the energy cost on the weapon skills.

I think they would have been better off to stick with a known mechanic: initiative.

Either that or just do CDs like every other class.

Balance team doesn't have time to work on CD, initiative, and energy balance effectively.