Return grenades

[Yasai.3549]

@"Vancho.8750" said:

As right now core does not give anything special over the elites to change its action to action gameplay.

I remember making a comment once how it would be cool to have Turrets turned into a kit, but why not have Turrets be Core's special Elite?Scrapper : Turrets are replaced with Gyros (again, I suggested before for Gyros to be a "Gyro kit" which can be pulled out as a separate loadout like Forge)Holo : Turrets replaced with Forge

[uberkingkong.8041]

At least its not turret engy, hate CC metas.

How about core Warrior back?How the heck did Warrior DPS monster turn into crap DPS and all about CC?Flipping CC metas.

Core engy no problem, I can use my abilities.tureet engry, always stuck, always CC'edthis spellbreaker, always can't use abilities,

When do I get to use my skills.. Hmmm?

I'm fine with core engy nades, Ostrich Eggs build.I can use my skills, I use them better than opponent. It's when I'm CC'ed, thats when I start hating life.

Best engy build thoughcore engy, sumo. And yes with Automated Response old school style, IMMUNE to all condi's."I'm going far, going to sumo everyone outta this node, and they going to be pissed they aint doing squat to me"

"enemy team says, how are you losing 2v1 at home? oh shit how come this guy does not die, hes very low on health but isn't going down, wtf, why am I being pushed everywhere too, too much knockdowns!"

[NotFound.7813]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Dantheman.3589" said:

But think about it this way- engis have to waste a dodge to proc this and this is in combat so they need to force defensive resources for the bonus offensive pressure.

Totally wrong way to look at it.

They aren't "wasting a dodge" for offensive gain like Mirages do with IH.They are gaining an offensive bonus for using a dodge.

Holo is being put in the spotlight here because they already have plenty of offensive capabilities without Explosives traitline, as shown with already existing builds like Prot Holo.

Factoring in Explosives traitline, Explosive entrance gives them bonus damage, Barrier and blind, off just using a dodge.

That's basically rewarding a dodge with a bonus attack, which ALSO gives bonus defensive aftereffects.

If yu are spam dodging as Engi to use Explosive Entrance then I have nothing to say other than yu deserve to get killed.

Prot holo isnt viable anymore

[Jekkt.6045]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jekkt.6045 said:just because core engi is bad and scrapper mediocre doesn't mean nades were fine on those specs. obviously core engi with rifle sucked when i played it and the defense was horrible, but i could still basically oneshot people with a 10k nade barrage.. (this was before nerfs)

Except,

by definition

, if the specs arent broken with it, it is fine on them. I would argue Spellbreakers CC is kinda ludicrous compared to other classes. But Spellbreaker isnt broken with them, so theyre fine.

nades were problematic no matter which spec ran it. just because engi sucks doesn't mean you don't have to nerf unhealthy skills. sooner or later nade kit would have been nerfed anyway.

They werent. And no, it wouldn't have. Remember, the kit wasnt even so much as played before the february patch. Or even after, for a while. Nerf Holo, and Grenade Kit would've been left untouched until powerdip reached low enough for core engineer to be an issue. But then again, powerdip is the biggest issue the game is facing anyway, so.

it is absolutely possible for single skills or components of a class to be busted without making all builds of that class broken because they are very weak in other aspects. this was the case for engi and scrapper. engi has a very poor weapon choice and is quite vulnerable in melee range if you don't play tool kit. scrapper is kinda slow in applying damage and has longish defensive cooldowns on hammer.

nade kit allowed all but condi specs to burst real hard. yes, the builds per se were not broken because they were weak, doesn't mean nade kit wasn't unhealthy for the game.

it wasn't even nade kit alone but rather explosive traitline + might + the way you could apply your burst.

in comes holo which handles engi's/scrapper's weaknesses way better and can slot the same burst. voila, you have yourself a broken spec.

what you say isn't wrong at all. engi and scrapper weren't broken with nades because they had a weakness you could exploit. this is more of a philosophical question about what's more healthy for the game.

this is kinda like the old example of a build that kills everything in 1 hit but dies from 1 hit. is it balanced? maybe. is it healthy? no.

now let's talk about the spellbreaker cc you mention. i assume your main problem with its cc is full counter, not dagger 3 or shield 4. it would be quite easy to increase the skill cap a bit on full counter by making the counter window shorter so you have to time it better on warrior.

[Kuma.1503]

I still think core engi should get to equip any kit as a weapon swap. It would free up so much build space for them.

[Jekkt.6045]

@Kuma.1503 said:I still think core engi should get to equip any kit as a weapon swap. It would free up so much build space for them.

i do think core engi's class identity should be based on kits but i'm not sure what's the best way to achieve that.

should your kits be your f1-5 skills? what about toolbelt skills then? what makes you different from ele then?

should kits be core only? what about traits for kits then?

should it be a weapon swap? what stops you from just taking tool kit 90% of the time just for the block?

[Kuma.1503]

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:I still think core engi should get to equip any kit as a weapon swap. It would free up so much build space for them.

i do think core engi's class identity should be based on kits but i'm not sure what's the best way to achieve that.

should your kits be your f1-5 skills? what about toolbelt skills then? what makes you different from ele then?

should kits be core only? what about traits for kits then?

should it be a weapon swap? what stops you from just taking tool kit 90% of the time just for the block?

Every kit would have value as a weapon slot.

Bomb/Nades - Offensive weapons that work well on both power and condi builds. Natural choice if running explosives

Flamethrower - Go-to for Juggernaut builds, but also great for condi engi.

Elixir Gun - tons of utility. Cleanse, sustain, some group support, does resectable condi damage

tools - block, pull, and most importantly... prybar.

My biggest question is what happens to the toolbelt skill if they equip it as a weapon swap? Do they get a 6th? Would that be too many F skills?

[Jekkt.6045]

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:I still think core engi should get to equip any kit as a weapon swap. It would free up so much build space for them.

i do think core engi's class identity should be based on kits but i'm not sure what's the best way to achieve that.

should your kits be your f1-5 skills? what about toolbelt skills then? what makes you different from ele then?

should kits be core only? what about traits for kits then?

should it be a weapon swap? what stops you from just taking tool kit 90% of the time just for the block?

Every kit would have value as a weapon slot.

Bomb/Nades - Offensive weapons that work well on both power and condi builds. Natural choice if running explosives

Flamethrower - Go-to for Juggernaut builds, but also great for condi engi.

Elixir Gun - tons of utility. Cleanse, sustain, some group support, does resectable condi damage

tools - block, pull, and most importantly...

prybar

.

My biggest question is what happens to the toolbelt skill if they equip it as a weapon swap? Do they get a 6th? Would that be too many F skills?

i still think most of the time you would just slot a defensive kit on the weapon swap slot because core engi has defensive problems. so you would basically have the kits you run in your build anyway + a defensive one like tool or elix gun. don't get me wrong, it's not bad but it's kinda similar to mandatory cleanse/energy on many builds.

you would lose the toolbelt skill because there's no f6 keybind. they could add it probably like they did with f5.

[Kuma.1503]

An alternate idea I've had rummaging around in my head for a while is simply giving Core engi improved functionality on their kits.

Shorter fuses on Bomb, Grenadier baked into nades (and replace the grenadier trait). Doing so would buff core, but it would have also nerfed Grenade holo. Nades are harder to land without the velocity increase and radius increase from Grenadier. Elixir skills in elixir gun grant additional boons like regen, ect.

At the very least, this would give core engi an identity, and it would create a trade-off for picking either of the elite specs. (I still think scrapper's trade-off is nonsensical)

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Was that nerf really necessary?

NOOOO MY AUTOATTACK DOESN'T DEAL 3K AOE OR WHATEVER THAT WAS AT 900 RANGE ANYMORE :( :( :( :( :(

[Jekkt.6045]

@"Kuma.1503" said:I still think scrapper's trade-off is nonsensical

ideally a trade off wouldn't even be needed if elite specs were actual specializations that replaced class mechanics instead of being upgrades to them.

in that regard, scrapper and holo shouldn't even have a toolbelt but something completely different.

a simple example would be:

core engi gets toolbelt skills to make it flexible with a mix between offense and defense depending on what you choose. you can do everything to a certain extent because you're not specialized.

scrapper gets gyros that are defensive and supportive in nature because that's what the spec does.

holo gets forge for pure offense and pressure because that's what the spec does.

in that example you are "specialized". nothing gets taken away artificially as a "trade off" because you're doing something different to begin with.

instead we have stuff like druid that's basically ranger with more healing or soulbeast with more skills than core. then they have to nerf pet stats and remove 1 pet slot when both elite specs shouldn't even have a pet mechanic or far less than ranger. imagine if druid simply had a wisp pet that you can send out and attach to allies to buff them + avatar. anyway, i'm going off topic..

[UNOwen.7132]

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jekkt.6045 said:just because core engi is bad and scrapper mediocre doesn't mean nades were fine on those specs. obviously core engi with rifle sucked when i played it and the defense was horrible, but i could still basically oneshot people with a 10k nade barrage.. (this was before nerfs)

Except,

by definition

, if the specs arent broken with it, it is fine on them. I would argue Spellbreakers CC is kinda ludicrous compared to other classes. But Spellbreaker isnt broken with them, so theyre fine.

nades were problematic no matter which spec ran it. just because engi sucks doesn't mean you don't have to nerf unhealthy skills. sooner or later nade kit would have been nerfed anyway.

They werent. And no, it wouldn't have. Remember, the kit wasnt even so much as played before the february patch. Or even after, for a while. Nerf Holo, and Grenade Kit would've been left untouched until powerdip reached low enough for core engineer to be an issue. But then again, powerdip is the biggest issue the game is facing anyway, so.

it is absolutely possible for single skills or components of a class to be busted without making all builds of that class broken because they are very weak in other aspects. this was the case for engi and scrapper. engi has a very poor weapon choice and is quite vulnerable in melee range if you don't play tool kit. scrapper is kinda slow in applying damage and has longish defensive cooldowns on hammer.

Skills dont exist in a vacuum. If its only broken in combination with a broken spec, that spec is broken. Not the thing youre talking about.

nade kit allowed all but condi specs to burst real hard. yes, the builds per se were not broken because they were weak, doesn't mean nade kit wasn't unhealthy for the game.

Well, it allowed them to burst hard by power-dip standards, but those are really low to begin with. And no, that doesnt neccessarily mean that nade kit wasnt unhealthy. The fact that it wasnt unhealthy meant that it wasnt unhealthy. This is a kit that has been doing that for years. It only became a "problem" thanks to Holo after massive powerdip. And the issue there is powerdip. Not grenades.

it wasn't even nade kit alone but rather explosive traitline + might + the way you could apply your burst.

in comes holo which handles engi's/scrapper's weaknesses way better and can slot the same burst. voila, you have yourself a broken spec.

Which means you hit Holo. Not Grenades.

what you say isn't wrong at all. engi and scrapper weren't broken with nades because they had a weakness you could exploit. this is more of a philosophical question about what's more healthy for the game.

this is kinda like the old example of a build that kills everything in 1 hit but dies from 1 hit. is it balanced? maybe. is it healthy? no.

Yeah except that wasnt core grenade at all, was it?

now let's talk about the spellbreaker cc you mention. i assume your main problem with its cc is full counter, not dagger 3 or shield 4. it would be quite easy to increase the skill cap a bit on full counter by making the counter window shorter so you have to time it better on warrior.

I would've said bull rush actually.

[Kuma.1503]

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:I still think scrapper's trade-off is nonsensical

ideally a trade off wouldn't even be needed if elite specs were actual specializations that replaced class mechanics instead of being upgrades to them.

in that regard, scrapper and holo shouldn't even have a toolbelt but something completely different.

a simple example would be:

core engi gets toolbelt skills to make it flexible with a mix between offense and defense depending on what you choose. you can do everything to a certain extent because you're not specialized.

scrapper gets gyros that are defensive and supportive in nature because that's what the spec does.

holo gets forge for pure offense and pressure because that's what the spec does.

in that example you are "specialized". nothing gets taken away artificially as a "trade off" because you're doing something different to begin with.

instead we have stuff like druid that's basically ranger with more healing or soulbeast with more skills than core. then they have to nerf pet stats and remove 1 pet slot when both elite specs shouldn't even have a pet mechanic or far less than ranger. imagine if druid simply had a wisp pet that you can send out and attach to allies to buff them + avatar. anyway, i'm going off topic..

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying remove toolbelt skills from both elite specs entirely? Utilities like Gyros aren't enough to justify an elite spec. You'd essentially be nerfing scrapper out of orbit.

[Jekkt.6045]

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:I still think scrapper's trade-off is nonsensical

ideally a trade off wouldn't even be needed if elite specs were actual specializations that replaced class mechanics instead of being upgrades to them.

in that regard, scrapper and holo shouldn't even have a toolbelt but something completely different.

a simple example would be:

core engi gets toolbelt skills to make it flexible with a mix between offense and defense depending on what you choose. you can do everything to a certain extent because you're not specialized.

scrapper gets gyros that are defensive and supportive in nature because that's what the spec does.

holo gets forge for pure offense and pressure because that's what the spec does.

in that example you are "specialized". nothing gets taken away artificially as a "trade off" because you're doing something different to begin with.

instead we have stuff like druid that's basically ranger with more healing or soulbeast with more skills than core. then they have to nerf pet stats and remove 1 pet slot when both elite specs shouldn't even have a pet mechanic or far less than ranger. imagine if druid simply had a wisp pet that you can send out and attach to allies to buff them + avatar. anyway, i'm going off topic..

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying remove toolbelt skills from both elite specs entirely? Utilities like Gyros aren't enough to justify an elite spec. You'd essentially be nerfing scrapper out of orbit.

No, i'm talking hypothetically how you would go about designing engi elite specs without trade offs.

I'm talking about gyros as a f-skill mechanic. Scrapper would have different utility skills but had his little mechanical friends as f-skills (ofc not 1:1 to current gyros).

That way you would have core engi's toolbelt skill mechanic which is flexible because you can pick what you need. scrapper would have a supporty gyro f skill mechanic and holo the offensive forge mechanic. Disregard balance here, we're only talking about design and how to make elite specs different enough so they don't step on each other's toes. If that can be achieved they don't need trade offs because they are completely different, hence the name "elite specialization".

In essence, if you design elite specs with completeley different mechanics to the core spec instead of taking core mechanics and putting something on top of it you don't need the "anet tm" trade offs.

[Enduronex.4865]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Dantheman.3589" said:

But think about it this way- engis have to waste a dodge to proc this and this is in combat so they need to force defensive resources for the bonus offensive pressure.

Totally wrong way to look at it.

They aren't "wasting a dodge" for offensive gain like Mirages do with IH.They are gaining an offensive bonus for using a dodge.

Holo is being put in the spotlight here because they already have plenty of offensive capabilities without Explosives traitline, as shown with already existing builds like Prot Holo.

Factoring in Explosives traitline, Explosive entrance gives them bonus damage, Barrier and blind, off just using a dodge.

That's basically rewarding a dodge with a bonus attack, which ALSO gives bonus defensive aftereffects.

If yu are spam dodging as Engi to use Explosive Entrance then I have nothing to say other than yu deserve to get killed.

Prot holo doesn't exist anymore, dude...

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@memausz.7264 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Dantheman.3589" said:

But think about it this way- engis have to waste a dodge to proc this and this is in combat so they need to force defensive resources for the bonus offensive pressure.

Totally wrong way to look at it.

They aren't "wasting a dodge" for offensive gain like Mirages do with IH.They are gaining an offensive bonus for using a dodge.

Holo is being put in the spotlight here because they already have plenty of offensive capabilities without Explosives traitline, as shown with already existing builds like Prot Holo.

Factoring in Explosives traitline, Explosive entrance gives them bonus damage, Barrier and blind, off just using a dodge.

That's basically rewarding a dodge with a bonus attack, which ALSO gives bonus defensive aftereffects.

If yu are spam dodging as Engi to use Explosive Entrance then I have nothing to say other than yu deserve to get killed.

Prot holo doesn't exist anymore, dude...

They were using that as an example, not saying it was a thing that still existed.

[Kuma.1503]

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:I still think scrapper's trade-off is nonsensical

ideally a trade off wouldn't even be needed if elite specs were actual specializations that replaced class mechanics instead of being upgrades to them.

in that regard, scrapper and holo shouldn't even have a toolbelt but something completely different.

a simple example would be:

core engi gets toolbelt skills to make it flexible with a mix between offense and defense depending on what you choose. you can do everything to a certain extent because you're not specialized.

scrapper gets gyros that are defensive and supportive in nature because that's what the spec does.

holo gets forge for pure offense and pressure because that's what the spec does.

in that example you are "specialized". nothing gets taken away artificially as a "trade off" because you're doing something different to begin with.

instead we have stuff like druid that's basically ranger with more healing or soulbeast with more skills than core. then they have to nerf pet stats and remove 1 pet slot when both elite specs shouldn't even have a pet mechanic or far less than ranger. imagine if druid simply had a wisp pet that you can send out and attach to allies to buff them + avatar. anyway, i'm going off topic..

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying remove toolbelt skills from both elite specs entirely? Utilities like Gyros aren't enough to justify an elite spec. You'd essentially be nerfing scrapper out of orbit.

No, i'm talking hypothetically how you would go about designing engi elite specs without trade offs.

I'm talking about gyros as a f-skill mechanic. Scrapper would have different utility skills but had his little mechanical friends as f-skills (ofc not 1:1 to current gyros).

That way you would have core engi's toolbelt skill mechanic which is flexible because you can pick what you need. scrapper would have a supporty gyro f skill mechanic and holo the offensive forge mechanic. Disregard balance here, we're only talking about design and how to make elite specs different enough so they don't step on each other's toes. If that can be achieved they don't need trade offs because they are completely different, hence the name "elite specialization".

In essence, if you design elite specs with completeley different mechanics to the core spec instead of taking core mechanics and putting something on top of it you don't need the "anet tm" trade offs.

Ah, I recall someone making a suggestion like that before. It would be an interesting one. I'd certainly be okay with a scrapper rework where all fskills are Gyros. F1 is already a Gyro. You've got Shredder, Purge, Bulkwark, Blast, and Sneak. I Due to how powerful sneak Gyro is I say keep that as an elite utility.

You would have to design some new utilities, which leads me to believe that Anet wouldn't go that route. Gyro toolbelts are kinda Meh, so simply swapping the two wouldn't work out. Maybe in the next expansion if they do a pass on old elite specs.

As for Holo, I like the idea of adding their heat mechanic to their toolbelts. At low heat they have less effectiveness than core toolbelts, at high heat they have increased effectiveness. but Cooldown of the toolbelt is also increased based on the heat level it was used at. (In PvE I'd tweak the numbers so that using on high heat is still optimal for dps in spite of the increased cooldown, either by making toolbelts more potent at high heat, or by reducing the amount the cooldown is increased by.)

[schloumou.3982]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Even with Grenade nerfs, Holo still vastly outperforms a good majority of builds.How about Arenanet tackles the actual problem, which is Holosmith,

not Core Engineer,

instead?After all, the over-performance comes out of that one traitline.

Yea I get that people don't want Core touched, but Explosives is literally carrying the entire Engi Profession right now : it's just too good.Scrapper is also just as bad as Holo when it comes to abusing Nades.

If people really want Core Engi to be better, then start asking for Tools buffs or rework.One thing which Core Engi has which isn't kitten like Holo and Scrapper is having a fully unrestricted Toolbelt, counting its Toolbelt Elite.

Tools could use a significant rework to its traits so that it has more uses than just the passive traits.For one, Static Discharge is still a load of hot garbage when it comes to its targeting.Power Wrench is too specific to only Tool-Kit which is useless in general besides like 3 skills.

Streamlined Kit effects are too weak compared to how strong Lock On is, because Engis can benefit way more from the Vuln application than any of the other effects from Streamlined Kit.Takedown Round makes no sense existing on Tools tbh, it feels more like an Explosives Trait, and again, its usefulness is extremely limited being a damage only skill which only procs when the target is above 50% hp.

Adrenal Implant : I have no idea why this thing is a GM Major. This is basically the same as Rev/Ranger's trait Minor but it's taking up a Major slot, on the GM tier.Sure, it's 2x stronger, but it shouldn't really take a GM Major slot.

Wanting Core to be strong is fine, but if Core, and by extension the entire Engi family is being carried by Explosives in their performance, it's obvious then that Explosives is way too strong.

The problem is that that wouldnt actually make Core Engineer playable. Core Engineer has an inherent flaw where its weapons are

garbage

. By design, theyre meant to be utility. Youre meant to use your utilities, i.e. primarily kits, for damage. If you nerf every half-way playable kit into oblivion, like Grenade Kit just was, then core engineer has no good weapon to use. Buffing Tools is not going to change that. And no, Explosives isnt the issue. Every thief is "carried" by Trickery. Every guardian is "carried" by virtues. There is usually one amazing traitline that every version of the class plays. Explosives is that traitline for engineer. Kinda always has been.

I would maybe argue that it's actually alchemy. For all the years I play Engi, I can't recall a single viable build without it. And in combination with Holo it's providing stupid amounts of boons.

[UNOwen.7132]

@schloumou.3982 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Even with Grenade nerfs, Holo still vastly outperforms a good majority of builds.How about Arenanet tackles the actual problem, which is Holosmith,

not Core Engineer,

instead?After all, the over-performance comes out of that one traitline.

Yea I get that people don't want Core touched, but Explosives is literally carrying the entire Engi Profession right now : it's just too good.Scrapper is also just as bad as Holo when it comes to abusing Nades.

If people really want Core Engi to be better, then start asking for Tools buffs or rework.One thing which Core Engi has which isn't kitten like Holo and Scrapper is having a fully unrestricted Toolbelt, counting its Toolbelt Elite.

Tools could use a significant rework to its traits so that it has more uses than just the passive traits.For one, Static Discharge is still a load of hot garbage when it comes to its targeting.Power Wrench is too specific to only Tool-Kit which is useless in general besides like 3 skills.

Streamlined Kit effects are too weak compared to how strong Lock On is, because Engis can benefit way more from the Vuln application than any of the other effects from Streamlined Kit.Takedown Round makes no sense existing on Tools tbh, it feels more like an Explosives Trait, and again, its usefulness is extremely limited being a damage only skill which only procs when the target is above 50% hp.

Adrenal Implant : I have no idea why this thing is a GM Major. This is basically the same as Rev/Ranger's trait Minor but it's taking up a Major slot, on the GM tier.Sure, it's 2x stronger, but it shouldn't really take a GM Major slot.

Wanting Core to be strong is fine, but if Core, and by extension the entire Engi family is being carried by Explosives in their performance, it's obvious then that Explosives is way too strong.

The problem is that that wouldnt actually make Core Engineer playable. Core Engineer has an inherent flaw where its weapons are

garbage

. By design, theyre meant to be utility. Youre meant to use your utilities, i.e. primarily kits, for damage. If you nerf every half-way playable kit into oblivion, like Grenade Kit just was, then core engineer has no good weapon to use. Buffing Tools is not going to change that. And no, Explosives isnt the issue. Every thief is "carried" by Trickery. Every guardian is "carried" by virtues. There is usually one amazing traitline that every version of the class plays. Explosives is that traitline for engineer. Kinda always has been.

I would maybe argue that it's actually alchemy. For all the years I play Engi, I can't recall a single viable build without it. And in combination with Holo it's providing stupid amounts of boons.

Yeah, you could make a case for Alchemy.

[scorekeeper.6524]

Engy main here. The nerf was fine. Core builds still exist and are viable. Most people like seeing big dmg numbers so they won’t play it OR since to play engy you have to have high APM people would rather play another class that is more faceroll.

What needs to be done, which engy mains have been asking for years, is the rework of turrets. Please make these things worthwhile again! Devs need to look at the engineer class in RoR for an idea how turrets create the identity of that class.