Should the Lead Attacks nerf be reverted?

[Exitus.3297]

Or should ANet just give something else back in return?

I don't mean to necro an old issue but it was a hot topic at the time and it isn't discussed anymore. A friend and I were talking and it came up, which is what lead to me asking. Something that came up during that conversation that Lead Attacks should be stackable out of combat but still keep the 10 second duration because they made a point about how the 15 stacks could just be kept up forever with little management (I'm not at all suggesting this, I'm just saying it came up).

Either way, where does everyone else stand on this nowadays?

[Curennos.9307]

They could just split the type of stack you gain in combat vs. out of combat. Make it stack much slower out of combat and faster in combat...or the other way around? Nerf was thoughtless and needs another look.

Still, it was too strong imo at its original strength, and any further changes should probably come with other stuff to different traitlines. Trickery needs a little more competition.

[Exitus.3297]

@Curennos.9307 said:They could just split the type of stack you gain in combat vs. out of combat. Make it stack much slower out of combat and faster in combat...or the other way around? Nerf was thoughtless and needs another look.

Still, it was too strong imo at its original strength, and any further changes should probably come with other stuff to different traitlines. Trickery needs a little more competition.

One thing that came to mind as you said this was making it so that Lead Attacks stacks to 30 or something and last like 25ish seconds, but then make each individual stack worth 0.5%. You would still only build 1 stack per initiative used and it would be stackable out of combat. This would make it harder to build up, but generally more consistent. If the issue before was that Thieves were entering fights with all 15 stacks all of the time, this would in my opinion be a good middle ground between being stackable out of combat (so the initiative doesn't feel wasted) while also solving the issue of opening a fight fully loaded with the 15% boost (unless the Thief wants to literally sit around for like 20ish seconds spending initiative just to build it up which would just seem odd to me).

Another thing that came to mind is making Preparedness baseline (the 15 total initiative trait) and just replacing it with something else. Not sure what but it is an idea,

Apologies if these seem silly. I'm just spitballing here.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

no. any bonuses that can be used in combat should be gained from combat.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lead attacks makes no sense due to not being able to LEAD the attack,was a stupid change and NOT over powered in the slightest. It only became an issue with deadeye and on that not any more OP than some of the bs (sic em) classes apparently are allowed to do but oh no not big bad thief lmao. It should been changed only to effect DE as no one complained about it before DE was a thing.

[Menyus.4610]

@"ParanoidKami.2867 " said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

An elite spec is overperfroming, LeTS NeRf tHE COrE SpEC....

[Sindrener.1592]

@"ParanoidKami.2867" said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

Nerfing all other thieves spec because 1 is "overpowered" doing too much damage seems like a good way to balance things. +1

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:no. any bonuses that can be used in combat should be gained from combat.

That's what arenet thought behind lead attacks seems to be. So all boons and modifiers that influence dps in any way should only be possible to engage when combats initiated? Wow that be quit the huge change(nerf) across the board to all classes if arenanet didnt stop at lead attacks lmao maybe they should.

[kash.9213]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:no. any bonuses that can be used in combat should be gained from combat.

If we're swinging our weapons spending Initiative than we are in combat and we're pretty much breaking even anyway.

[meowmeow.9125]

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

Deadeyes still can gain 6 stacks of LA for 15s out of combat via DJ, so even after two patches of tweeking LA Deadeye oneshot build still can take advantage of LA in setupping burstsEven so there is an empiric opinion that Oneshot DE doesn't need these percentages to do oneshots and so all the changes were not against him, but instead was a part of a global anet conspiracy against thief class(But as we're drowning together with mesmers im actually singing at my heart)

[reddie.5861]

@Curennos.9307 said:They could just split the type of stack you gain in combat vs. out of combat. Make it stack much slower out of combat and faster in combat...or the other way around? Nerf was thoughtless and needs another look.

Still, it was too strong imo at its original strength, and any further changes should probably come with other stuff to different traitlines. Trickery needs a little more competition.

in order to drop trickery for PvP ur gonna have to increase burst dmg to the point that u dont need so much ini.same for WvW right now i woulndt want to miss any ini points at all..

for pve i cant talk cus i still see pve as 11111111111 so u can use whatever.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

@meowmeow.9125 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

Deadeyes still can gain 6 stacks of LA for 15s out of combat via DJ, so even after two patches of tweeking LA Deadeye oneshot build still can take advantage of LA in setupping burstsEven so there is an empiric opinion that Oneshot DE doesn't need these percentages to do oneshots and so all the changes were not against him, but instead was a part of a global anet conspiracy against thief class(But as we're drowning together with mesmers im actually singing at my heart)

You mean gaining Lead Attacks on Deaths Retreat? That was nerfed and no longer works. Think I found a bug though. Deaths Judgement gives 6 stacks of Lead Attack even if it takes no initiative. Checked backstab and it gave no Lead Attacks so don't think it's intentional.

[SehferViega.8725]

Lead Attacks effect duration: 15 seconds.

IMHO that's the only LA change they must revert.

[Exitus.3297]

@SehferViega.8725 said:Lead Attacks effect duration: 15 seconds.

IMHO that's the only LA change they must revert.

I'm okay with this.

EDIT: I should probably add I'm not too worried about it since the Daredevil trait rework.

[SehferViega.8725]

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

Deadeye insane burst damage it is not based on Lead Attacks.. the problems come from

• Hidden Killer: 100% Critical Chance
• Assassin's Signet +540 power
• Malicious Backstab -> Bonus Damage per Malice: 10%
• Death's Judgment -> Damage bonus per Malice: 15%
• Malicious Intent: Marking a target will immediately grant malice.
• Iron Sight: Damage Increase: 10%
• Be Quick or Be Killed: Quickness, + 200 power, + 200 precision..

With all these Damage Bonus don't come tell me the problem was LA +15% damage.. LA was like a a drop in the sea for Deadeye.

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

@SehferViega.8725 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

Deadeye insane burst damage it is not based on Lead Attacks.. the problems come from

• Hidden Killer: 100% Critical Chance
• Assassin's Signet +540 power
• Malicious Backstab -> Bonus Damage per Malice: 10%
• Death's Judgment -> Damage bonus per Malice: 15%
• Malicious Intent: Marking a target will immediately grant malice.
• Iron Sight: Damage Increase: 10%
• Be Quick or Be Killed: Quickness, + 200 power, + 200 precision..

With all these Damage Bonus don't come tell me the problem was LA +15% damage.. LA was like a a drop in the sea for Deadeye.

another core class getting nerfed because elite specs are over-tuned, DE has been nothing but trouble for thief and because of it both DD and core got nerfed as collateral damage.

[Kageseigi.2150]

What would make more sense for an assassin class? Opening Strike suits it much better than a Ranger and a pet.

An automatic critical with 25% damage increase that causes Cripple, then 5% damage increase for 5 seconds after.

Who needs a telegraphed Mark/Malice system with Deadeye if you have Opening Strike? Especially if you regain it every time you gain Fury (or change it to reset every time you enter Stealth).

Honestly, getting sniped from a range of 1,500+ will kill you just as dead as getting Backstabbed from Stealth. At least you can swat and get lucky at hitting an invisible Thief. You can't do so much against a distant Ranger.

Giving Open Strike to the Thief would allow you to remove and replace a lot of other Thief traits. So many possibilities for it, and many ways to keep it balanced.

[TorQ.7041]

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

U can still instantly kill people as deadeye. If your opponent doesn't dodge your burst. Lead attacks really didn't change much. Deadeye is dead now always with stealth Nerf. Been gutted.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

U can still instantly kill people as deadeye. If your opponent doesn't dodge your burst. Lead attacks really didn't change much. Deadeye is dead now always with stealth Nerf. Been gutted.

Actually, perma stealth deadeye is now the only viable deadeye in WvW. The nerf only succeeded in killing my quickness CC build and forced me to play one shot SA. GG devs!

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

U can still instantly kill people as deadeye. If your opponent doesn't dodge your burst. Lead attacks really didn't change much. Deadeye is dead now always with stealth Nerf. Been gutted.

Actually, perma stealth deadeye is now the only viable deadeye in WvW. The nerf only succeeded in killing my quickness CC build and forced me to play one shot SA. GG devs!

That's seems the norm when it comes to thier thief balancing lol cant be having build deversity.

[TorQ.7041]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:It was overpowered before. Deadeyes were stacking it outside of combat and then giving large bursts to instantly kill people.

U can still instantly kill people as deadeye. If your opponent doesn't dodge your burst. Lead attacks really didn't change much. Deadeye is dead now always with stealth Nerf. Been gutted.

Actually, perma stealth deadeye is now the only viable deadeye in WvW. The nerf only succeeded in killing my quickness CC build and forced me to play one shot SA. GG devs!

I see. I only play PvP so I had no idea. I used to play deadeye in pvp. I just don't bother now. Rev,Holo sic em will kill u so fast. With their reveal cc. N in the case of rev n Holo aoe.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@TorQ.7041 said:I see. I only play PvP so I had no idea. I used to play deadeye in pvp. I just don't bother now. Rev,Holo sic em will kill u so fast. With their reveal cc. N in the case of rev n Holo aoe.

Yup. It's still possible to mark, spotter's shot and DJ with the DJ hitting for up to 17k on three malice stacks, if you're looking to gank the unaware then deadeye is still as good as it was. Just need to be more careful with stealth uptime than before. Thinking WvW obviously, I don't blame you for not touching it in PvP.

To be fair, you can probably get away with playing non-SA builds if you're careful, I still duel with my CC build in guild hall and apart from the difference in stealth uptime it more or less performs the same. For WvW however, that stealth uptime is pretty vital to stop you getting instagibbed by the other roaming specs, and it's now at a point that if you're not building into high stealth uptime and high burst there's really no reason to play DE over core. Best to consider it the assassin ganky spec and if you want something different, play something else.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:That's seems the norm when it comes to thier thief balancing lol cant be having build deversity.

Yup. They nerfed core and DD while buffing DE for a while, then decided DE was too strong and nerfed it, and then nerfed stealth two patches in a row (marked then silent scope) while also eliminating the mobility advantage thief in general had. It's not been a good year for thief build diversity really.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"TorQ.7041" said:it's now at a point that if you're not building into high stealth uptime and high burst there's really no reason to play DE over core. Best to consider it the assassin ganky spec and if you want something different, play something else.

I really wish they had modified the Core traitlines to include the "assassin ganky" features, and just focused on ranged/sniper abilities for Deadeye. That way, we could still get heavy Backstabs with gap-closing Steals. "Mark" should be a Core F3 function, as it has absolutely nothing to do with ranged sniping, but only assassination. Deadeye can still keep it's "ranged Steal," just call it something else.

One may say that Deadeye is the actual assassin spec, and that may be true in actuality, but I don't really like the way it's implemented. They gave melee Deadeyes some good stuff, but they also removed some good stuff because they needed to make it work for ranged Deadeyes.

Basically, "assassin" does not equal "ranged sniper"... and too much melee ability was lost for the sake of ranged ability.

Personally, I'd rather be able to choose to be a glass-cannon assassin with only Core traitlines (as the default Thief should be), and only take Deadeye if I wanted to add ranged capability to that.

[TorQ.7041]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:I see. I only play PvP so I had no idea. I used to play deadeye in pvp. I just don't bother now. Rev,Holo sic em will kill u so fast. With their reveal cc. N in the case of rev n Holo aoe.

Yup. It's still possible to mark, spotter's shot and DJ with the DJ hitting for up to 17k on three malice stacks, if you're looking to gank the unaware then deadeye is still as good as it was. Just need to be more careful with stealth uptime than before. Thinking WvW obviously, I don't blame you for not touching it in PvP.

To be fair, you can probably get away with playing non-SA builds if you're careful, I still duel with my CC build in guild hall and apart from the difference in stealth uptime it more or less performs the same. For WvW however, that stealth uptime is pretty vital to stop you getting instagibbed by the other roaming specs, and it's now at a point that if you're not building into high stealth uptime and high burst there's really no reason to play DE over core. Best to consider it the assassin ganky spec and if you want something different, play something else.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:That's seems the norm when it comes to thier thief balancing lol cant be having build deversity.

Yup. They nerfed core and DD while buffing DE for a while, then decided DE was too strong and nerfed it, and then nerfed stealth two patches in a row (marked then silent scope) while also eliminating the mobility advantage thief in general had. It's not been a good year for thief build diversity really.

Yeah I love the assasin gank type. That's why I started. In pvp ur gear isnt as diverse as wvw. You cant do the same kinda gank with shadow arts. Which just translates to a weaker gank and if they survive. You have to burn your cool downs to get away. Which isn't conductive to the game mode because u have to cap points or deal consistent dmg to help cap.

Sic em,rev,holo is just far superior pvp. They miss their burst no problem. They can sustain and keep requesting.