"Fight on point!" — Guild Wars 2 Forums

"Fight on point!"

bladezero.9470bladezero.9470 Member ✭✭✭

lol.

Can we talk about this?

Ugh...

Comments

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ........................................no!

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes!
    Please just stay on or at least near a point* so you don't totally waste your time fighting while the enemy has map ownership with constant point ticks. Especially since if you lose the fight chances are nobody will come and pick you up because they try to be useful and actually (de)cap points :)
    Thanks!

    *on point is btw not "constantly within the node circle".

  • Tiale.2430Tiale.2430 Member ✭✭

    Fight on point, is a noob gameplay. Players should win team fights killing people and outnumber who is on point. Any tournament of the high level you will see this style of gameplay.
    Most of the time pug players in ranked who stay on point eat all AOE and die fast. If you are in a 1v1 scenario, it's recommended to contest the point in white and win that 1v1.

    Subdrop : Guardian : NA

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @Tiale.2430 said:
    Fight on point, is a noob gameplay. Players should win team fights killing people and outnumber who is on point. Any tournament of the high level you will see this style of gameplay.
    Most of the time pug players in ranked who stay on point eat all AOE and die fast. If you are in a 1v1 scenario, it's recommended to contest the point in white and win that 1v1.

    Like I already said on point is not "within the node circle". It just means to not constantly fight in the middle of nowhere where your team can't really support you unless giving up map control. Pug players usually just stand in the circle the entire time and won't leave it like it was some arena where you insta die when you leave it. Just prevent the decap as long as reasonable and prevent the full cap as long as possible or just rotate away and be useful on a different node. That's it. This also involves kiting and usage of terrain around the circle, which is still considered "on-point".
    And just because you mentioned "high level style of gameplay".. You will also notice that they make sure to keep map dominance first and then keep the enemy away from nodes while also keeping an eye on whether or not they get decapped and immediately rotate accordingly.
    And by map dominance I don't mean tripple cap, it's sufficient to only have 1 more full capped node than your opponent, preferable two (mid and close with decapped far for example). Overcommiting is also a big issue related to this but it's a different story.

    I just had a match yesterday on Eternal Coliseum where ppl were constantly fighting in the area under the arc between mid and far. Of course one of the enemies rotated and took tripple-cap, while the rest of the team was sustaining into my team. Literally the only thing that prevented them from constantly having tripple cap was me on thief rotating to decap. They didn't even win the fights so we didn't even get kill points whatsoever. After ~200 points everyone was just flaming each other and afk-ing in base.. nice gameplay btw.

    @bkv.2371 said:
    No. Even if you give this a broad interpretation, it is still wrong. If you win a 1v1 you're doing good, I really dont care where it is at all. After down/kill you can go the closest node. It is better to kill a dps fast in the middle of nowhere and let him bleed than to endless 2v1 a scrapper on point.

    I'd argue that 1v1-ing is generally a bad idea in sPvP unless you are a duelist but then again you should just camp a point and prevent that decap with your life. And if you aren't running a 1vX you'd be better off to try and carry the fight to your team mates and maybe even ping to attract someone +1-ing you. Of course it doesn't make sense to carry the fight to a point when you're getting ganked or something but this is usually where your team mates fight or at least should do so.
    And to let someone bleed out is also risky, you'd need to pay attention until they're dead, which is also preferably while you're standing on a node for those ppt.
    An endless scrapper fight is also generally a pretty bad idea independently from whether it's on-point or not tbh.

    @bkv.2371 said:
    The right statement would be "invest your time wisely". Eg. don't chase warrior 2v1 off point for a minute.
    But this is something you learn by experience, not teamchat. The only reason why you would give your teammates some unfriendly advice in teamchat at all is as an attempt to get some of the rage out of your body, but this is a dangerous path that usually only leads to more rage.

    This is very true tho.

  • Lala.8752Lala.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    i hate this kind of people who say it

    generally gold tier

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    I made a thread about the most common misconception in Conquest PvP recently and this was one of the key points:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75155/the-10-most-common-errors-and-misconceptions-of-conquest-pvp

    Fighting on point is only worth when you are sure to survive the pressure for an extending time or you are very close winning the game (485+ score). Otherwise it's often just a way to get yourself killed.

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bladezero.9470 said:
    lol.

    Can we talk about this?

    Ugh...

    Ya, if you have not heard sPvP is designed around capturing nodes. So, if you are not fighting on or around the nodes, why are you playing sPvP?!

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the people who watch their teammates die 800-1000 range off point in a 1vs2 because the cap/decap is so much more important. And ofc they lose the point within 15sec because the enemies move onto them.

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    @Tiale.2430 said:
    Fight on point, is a noob gameplay. Players should win team fights killing people and outnumber who is on point. Any tournament of the high level you will see this style of gameplay.
    Most of the time pug players in ranked who stay on point eat all AOE and die fast. If you are in a 1v1 scenario, it's recommended to contest the point in white and win that 1v1.
    @bkv.2371 said:
    No. Even if you give this a broad interpretation, it is still wrong. If you win a 1v1 you're doing good, I really dont care where it is at all. After down/kill you can go the closest node. It is better to kill a dps fast in the middle of nowhere and let him bleed than to endless 2v1 a scrapper on point.

    I'd argue that 1v1-ing is generally a bad idea in sPvP unless you are a duelist but then again you should just camp a point and prevent that decap with your life. And if you aren't running a 1vX you'd be better off to try and carry the fight to your team mates and maybe even ping to attract someone +1-ing you. Of course it doesn't make sense to carry the fight to a point when you're getting ganked or something but this is usually where your team mates fight or at least should do so.
    And to let someone bleed out is also risky, you'd need to pay attention until they're dead, which is also preferably while you're standing on a node for those ppt.
    An endless scrapper fight is also generally a pretty bad idea independently from whether it's on-point or not tbh.

    Depends on what you play, what is moving towards the point and how likely it is to get enemies moving in from different sides. If you expect inc from spawn for example, moving a bit towards it means you can pressure enemies sooner and if they want to push the point they have to move past you and then still some distance. That buys you time and you can pressure them while they have to turn their back. If there're 2 enemies coming I feel like I can better stall as well, you can cc, kb, ... one to keep him back and if the other moves to the point you get them separated. Ofc that all comes with the risk of enemies being faster than you, getting the decap, or someone moving in through another route, dying off point, but you have to judge that based on the builds used and what's happening at other points.

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  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I like the people who watch their teammates die 800-1000 range off point in a 1vs2 because the cap/decap is so much more important. And ofc they lose the point within 15sec because the enemies move onto them.

    Why was he off point in a 2v1?
    surely 2 people could hold the node against 1 person..

    And I dont get how that is the fault of the person standing on the node? Wouldnt the butterfly who chases off point be at fault?

    and then how does that 1 guy suddenly become multiple people?

    Im sorry but your comment doesnt make sense.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I treat this mode like death match anyways

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    Keep in mind that a kill at any point during the game is only worth 5 points, and if you could have capped a node in the time it took you to kill that opponent, it would have likely paid for itself far sooner.

    Fighting on point has poor applications, yes. You dont want to 1v2 as glass or 1v3 on point as a bunker. In those situations peeling people off the point or leaving would be best. In most cases though , "Fight on point" is thrown out because it is a short way of notifying someone who has gotten themselves kited out into the wilderness vs distraction while the point remains uncapped/enemy capped that they're not doing their job by chasing that player. Even if they manage to kill that player, the time tick on the point would have paid for the 5 points you get for killing them, and any smart team would know that their ally has baited you there and will be on their way to clean you up/pick up their teammate.

    It doesnt apply to every case, or even in general. It's a kinder way of saying "do your job, you're being kited."

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I like the people who watch their teammates die 800-1000 range off point in a 1vs2 because the cap/decap is so much more important. And ofc they lose the point within 15sec because the enemies move onto them.

    Why was he off point in a 2v1?
    surely 2 people could hold the node against 1 person..

    And I dont get how that is the fault of the person standing on the node? Wouldnt the butterfly who chases off point be at fault?

    and then how does that 1 guy suddenly become multiple people?

    Im sorry but your comment doesnt make sense.

    You're alone, fighting on a point, 2 enemies engage, you stall them (which at some point requires you moving off the node) while an ally closes in. He arrives and instead of helping you kill 2 enemies and then reclaim the node, ignores the fight to stand and recap said node, which leaves you to die vs the enemies and him shortly afterwards too. "Why are you off node?" is an easy question to ask when you weren't the one just fighting off 2 enemies for half a minute. 1-2 more node ticks isn't worth 2 deaths.

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  • bladezero.9470bladezero.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Falan.1839 said:
    I made a thread about the most common misconception in Conquest PvP recently and this was one of the key points:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75155/the-10-most-common-errors-and-misconceptions-of-conquest-pvp

    Fighting on point is only worth when you are sure to survive the pressure for an extending time or you are very close winning the game (485+ score). Otherwise it's often just a way to get yourself killed.

    This.

    Thank you.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @Silinsar.6298 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I like the people who watch their teammates die 800-1000 range off point in a 1vs2 because the cap/decap is so much more important. And ofc they lose the point within 15sec because the enemies move onto them.

    Why was he off point in a 2v1?
    surely 2 people could hold the node against 1 person..

    And I dont get how that is the fault of the person standing on the node? Wouldnt the butterfly who chases off point be at fault?

    and then how does that 1 guy suddenly become multiple people?

    Im sorry but your comment doesnt make sense.

    You're alone, fighting on a point, 2 enemies engage, you stall them (which at some point requires you moving off the node) while an ally closes in. He arrives and instead of helping you kill 2 enemies and then reclaim the node, ignores the fight to stand and recap said node, which leaves you to die vs the enemies and him shortly afterwards too. "Why are you off node?" is an easy question to ask when you weren't the one just fighting off 2 enemies for half a minute. 1-2 more node ticks isn't worth 2 deaths.

    well that's an entirely different story and situation to what you posted before.

    the first story was a 2v1 and the guy who was outnumbered managed to get a butterfly to chase him off point making it a 1v1 and easy kill for himself. Divide and conquer tactics.

    second story is more understandable as it involves a 4th player and a completely different situation.

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  • bladezero.9470bladezero.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    Great insight so far.

    I think it's important to get inside the mind of low to mid level players so we can all get better and have good games.

    The way I see it, the imperatives are as follows:

    1. Always win the team fight wherever that leads.
    2. Focus priority targets who will always try to disengage far off the node.
    3. Always focus off node.
    4. Never fight on point.

    Obviously dealing in absolutes is a risky business, but I feel like it needs to be said this way for the silver and golds to get better at the game mode. My advice, especially if you are on the opening engagement mid, IGNORE the point. Call targets. Win the fight.

    This current meta in particular is about winning fights. The nodes will come easily after you gain map dominance.

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I like the people who watch their teammates die 800-1000 range off point in a 1vs2 because the cap/decap is so much more important. And ofc they lose the point within 15sec because the enemies move onto them.

    Why was he off point in a 2v1?
    surely 2 people could hold the node against 1 person..

    And I dont get how that is the fault of the person standing on the node? Wouldnt the butterfly who chases off point be at fault?

    and then how does that 1 guy suddenly become multiple people?

    Im sorry but your comment doesnt make sense.

    You're alone, fighting on a point, 2 enemies engage, you stall them (which at some point requires you moving off the node) while an ally closes in. He arrives and instead of helping you kill 2 enemies and then reclaim the node, ignores the fight to stand and recap said node, which leaves you to die vs the enemies and him shortly afterwards too. "Why are you off node?" is an easy question to ask when you weren't the one just fighting off 2 enemies for half a minute. 1-2 more node ticks isn't worth 2 deaths.

    well that's an entirely different story and situation to what you posted before.

    the first story was a 2v1 and the guy who was outnumbered managed to get a butterfly to chase him off point making it a 1v1 and easy kill for himself. Divide and conquer tactics.

    second story is more understandable as it involves a 4th player and a completely different situation.

    It was the situation I described in what you quoted. The other situation I commented on was a different situation unrelated to my comment on people ignoring teammates in trouble for the sake of nodes. I guess that caused the initial misunderstanding?

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  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:
    And just because you mentioned "high level style of gameplay".. You will also notice that they make sure to keep map dominance first and then keep the enemy away from nodes while also keeping an eye on whether or not they get decapped and immediately rotate accordingly.
    And by map dominance I don't mean tripple cap, it's sufficient to only have 1 more full capped node than your opponent, preferable two (mid and close with decapped far for example).

    No. Often you'll see high level teams leaving all nodes uncapped, or even accepting for a short time having 1 less node than the enemy, if it means winning a team-fight and later snowballing the entire map.

    Actually, that's an important difference between p2+ teams and lower teams, is that p2+ actually have the capacity to properly snowball. Once they have a numbers advantage, 3 good dps can roll around the map 1-shotting people, and keep the enemy totally scattered for an extensive period of time. In gold, dps simply aren't that good. So in this situation, it is less important to win a team-fight, because they aren't good enough to use the momentum from it.

    It also comes down to the meta; in a bunker meta, like in the past with all druids/tempests/chronos, it was more important to hug the node. But in the present meta there aren't any bunkers that can sustain through 3+ enemy going to town on them.

    If you interpret "fight on point" in a literal sense of staying physically on a node, then you're just wrong. If you interpret it in the more strategic sense of "fight for a point" then this is better advice.

  • bladezero.9470bladezero.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:
    And just because you mentioned "high level style of gameplay".. You will also notice that they make sure to keep map dominance first and then keep the enemy away from nodes while also keeping an eye on whether or not they get decapped and immediately rotate accordingly.
    And by map dominance I don't mean tripple cap, it's sufficient to only have 1 more full capped node than your opponent, preferable two (mid and close with decapped far for example).

    No. Often you'll see high level teams leaving all nodes uncapped, or even accepting for a short time having 1 less node than the enemy, if it means winning a team-fight and later snowballing the entire map.

    Actually, that's an important difference between p2+ teams and lower teams, is that p2+ actually have the capacity to properly snowball. Once they have a numbers advantage, 3 good dps can roll around the map 1-shotting people, and keep the enemy totally scattered for an extensive period of time. In gold, dps simply aren't that good. So in this situation, it is less important to win a team-fight, because they aren't good enough to use the momentum from it.

    It also comes down to the meta; in a bunker meta, like in the past with all druids/tempests/chronos, it was more important to hug the node. But in the present meta there aren't any bunkers that can sustain through 3+ enemy going to town on them.

    If you interpret "fight on point" in a literal sense of staying physically on a node, then you're just wrong. If you interpret it in the more strategic sense of "fight for a point" then this is better advice.

    This.

    Thank you.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't the best strategy to adapt to your groups playstyle if yours at the time is not being applied.

    Everyone on the team needs to tug the rope in the same direction.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • bladezero.9470bladezero.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Isn't the best strategy to adapt to your groups playstyle if yours at the time is not being applied.

    Everyone on the team needs to tug the rope in the same direction.

    Not really.

    There are better strategies than others. Point first mentality is actually never the best way to go in a team fight, whether white, capped or in the enemies possession.

    I would literally rather see my team mates afk at home than smash their faces onto node at mid.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bladezero.9470 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Isn't the best strategy to adapt to your groups playstyle if yours at the time is not being applied.

    Everyone on the team needs to tug the rope in the same direction.

    Not really.

    There are better strategies than others. Point first mentality is actually never the best way to go in a team fight, whether white, capped or in the enemies possession.

    I would literally rather see my team mates afk at home than smash their faces onto node at mid.

    My way or the highway with you?

    A five finger death punch is better than a 4 finger death punch with a thumb up the kitten.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @bladezero.9470 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Isn't the best strategy to adapt to your groups playstyle if yours at the time is not being applied.

    Everyone on the team needs to tug the rope in the same direction.

    Not really.

    There are better strategies than others. Point first mentality is actually never the best way to go in a team fight, whether white, capped or in the enemies possession.

    I would literally rather see my team mates afk at home than smash their faces onto node at mid.

    My way or the highway with you?

    A five finger death punch is better than a 4 finger death punch with a thumb up the kitten.

    Unless you like the thumb up the kitten hehe

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    Node is life

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  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    "Die on Point" is Much better.

    coz 3 of them on your point/contested for you/before you die, some extra tick...

    and 4 of your team mates are 2/2 on the other points and the 2 enemy is mostlikely raging on their teamchat..

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  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @bladezero.9470

    You have to be able to tell the difference between if you are defending a node while not being on the node, or if you are ignoring node defense while being off node. This is the difference between good off node play and bad off node play.

    Example of correct off node play:

    • I am in Forest of Niflhel
    • I am defending home node.
    • My team has 4 players at mid and team communication is strong. They are calling out where enemies are and where they are pushing. They are also quick to block enemy progression around the map. I can trust them to block a player progression to home from the mid node, or at least tell me that it is happening if they can't leave mid.
    • I wipe an opponent at home and I see my team wipes an opponent at mid. 2 opponents are going to come off their respawn soon.
    • I notice one of my team mates pushes to far.
    • There is no reason for me to stand at the home node and wait on a gamble, not being sure if the opponents will come home or go mid or go far, because this slows down my team's rotational play.
    • I push to the beach from home node, and watch the enemy respawn. This way I can call out where the enemies are headed immediately as they come off respawn. This allows my far push to know if he should stay or fall back to mid. It also lets me know if anyone is pushing home, or if it is safe for me to rotate to mid to assist a team fight. If an opponent tries to push through me to home, I can engage him before he gets to the node to slow his progress in attempts to deter him from even going to the node in the first place. If he continues to push the home node, I can follow.
    • All the while when I am doing this, I am still defending home, but I am about 6000 range from it.
  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Silinsar.6298 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I like the people who watch their teammates die 800-1000 range off point in a 1vs2 because the cap/decap is so much more important. And ofc they lose the point within 15sec because the enemies move onto them.

    Why was he off point in a 2v1?
    surely 2 people could hold the node against 1 person..

    And I dont get how that is the fault of the person standing on the node? Wouldnt the butterfly who chases off point be at fault?

    and then how does that 1 guy suddenly become multiple people?

    Im sorry but your comment doesnt make sense.

    You're alone, fighting on a point, 2 enemies engage, you stall them (which at some point requires you moving off the node) while an ally closes in. He arrives and instead of helping you kill 2 enemies and then reclaim the node, ignores the fight to stand and recap said node, which leaves you to die vs the enemies and him shortly afterwards too. "Why are you off node?" is an easy question to ask when you weren't the one just fighting off 2 enemies for half a minute. 1-2 more node ticks isn't worth 2 deaths.

    well that's an entirely different story and situation to what you posted before.

    the first story was a 2v1 and the guy who was outnumbered managed to get a butterfly to chase him off point making it a 1v1 and easy kill for himself. Divide and conquer tactics.

    second story is more understandable as it involves a 4th player and a completely different situation.

    It was the situation I described in what you quoted. The other situation I commented on was a different situation unrelated to my comment on people ignoring teammates in trouble for the sake of nodes. I guess that caused the initial misunderstanding?

    No misunderstanding on my behalf.

    both stories were completely different and had different amounts of players.

    but we dont need to argue this because if you said it was the same story then I believe you but I also believe you missed some key words from your first story if thats the case.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
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  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, we can talk about this:

    It's a basic, fundamental of rule of conquest spvp since the beginning. ( "Hold on to your points! Seize theirs!")

    --discussion over--

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Yeah, we can talk about this:

    It's a basic, fundamental of rule of conquest spvp since the beginning. ( "Hold on to your points! Seize theirs!")

    --discussion over--

    Ooof i came to post something else but when i a man is right a man is right

  • Brother.1504Brother.1504 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Knowing when to rotate and abandon the node is just as important as knowing when to hold/delay. Took me a long time to figure out who i hard countered and could 1v2 delay vs who I should just rotate away from if I didn’t have help.

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