can we please not let scourge hit 10 targets anymore

Voltekka.2375 · July 16, 2019

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Scourge hits 10 targets for 3k, 30k total dmg (half of which you have to be melee) . CoR hits 5 targets for 10-15 K per hit, at range, meaning 50-75k. With lower cd. One would argue that scourge's main job isnt damage, but that means one should know wvw basics. Yes, BASICS. Its 2019, scourges have been nerfed time and again, boons being spammed reign supreme, scrappers adding more sustain than ever, yet we still QQ about... Scourge and its targets.
insert Owen Wilson WOW meme

10 or 15 k on CoE Only if scourge has previously corrupt protection and aegis on the target

But giving the most broken example to defend the second best one isn't really helping.

I would use ele meteor, but it is a no brainer to try to get out of that big, bad Red AoE circle. Just like scourge shroud. Unlike CoR that has no visible tell. Oh well, I guess its back to basics for me!

Nath Forge Tempete.1645 · July 16, 2019

@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Scourge hits 10 targets for 3k, 30k total dmg (half of which you have to be melee) . CoR hits 5 targets for 10-15 K per hit, at range, meaning 50-75k. With lower cd. One would argue that scourge's main job isnt damage, but that means one should know wvw basics. Yes, BASICS. Its 2019, scourges have been nerfed time and again, boons being spammed reign supreme, scrappers adding more sustain than ever, yet we still QQ about... Scourge and its targets.
insert Owen Wilson WOW meme

10 or 15 k on CoE Only if scourge has previously corrupt protection and aegis on the target

But giving the most broken example to defend the second best one isn't really helping.

I would use ele meteor, but it is a no brainer to try to get out of that big, bad Red AoE circle. Just like scourge shroud. Unlike CoR that has no visible tell. Oh well, I guess its back to basics for me!

You missed my point there buddy :D (or I missed yours)

I just telling that saying scourge is less cheesy than revenant is pretty irrelevant since revenant is the most cheesy build out there in WvW (and scourge comes second with firebrand) Basically every other class could fit that comparison with revenant.

So arguing that scourge is fine cause "worse" than revenant isn't really relevant and doesn't forgive that class for hitting 10 targets at a time.

End of Answer.

For the ppl that say that it's range etc . Most of impacts in WvW , scourges will hit at range and then hit in melee too with the impact(mostly downed body for sure). it will be 10 targets either way in most cases.

Aeolus.3615 · July 16, 2019

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Scourge hits 10 targets for 3k, 30k total dmg (half of which you have to be melee) . CoR hits 5 targets for 10-15 K per hit, at range, meaning 50-75k. With lower cd. One would argue that scourge's main job isnt damage, but that means one should know wvw basics. Yes, BASICS. Its 2019, scourges have been nerfed time and again, boons being spammed reign supreme, scrappers adding more sustain than ever, yet we still QQ about... Scourge and its targets.
insert Owen Wilson WOW meme

10 or 15 k on CoE Only if scourge has previously corrupt protection and aegis on the target

But giving the most broken example to defend the second best one isn't really helping.

I would use ele meteor, but it is a no brainer to try to get out of that big, bad Red AoE circle. Just like scourge shroud. Unlike CoR that has no visible tell. Oh well, I guess its back to basics for me!

You missed my point there buddy :D (or I missed yours)

I just telling that saying scourge is less cheesy than revenant is pretty irrelevant since revenant is the most cheesy build out there in WvW (and scourge comes second with firebrand) Basically every other class could fit that comparison with revenant.

So arguing that scourge is fine cause "worse" than revenant isn't really relevant and doesn't forgive that class for hitting 10 targets at a time.

End of Answer.

For the ppl that say that it's range etc . Most of impacts in WvW , scourges will hit at range and then hit in melee too with the impact(mostly downed body for sure). it will be 10 targets either way in most cases.

Rev is strong due visual that hides the animation of hammer skills. and the amount of vulnerability targets have.

U can’t dodge what u can’t see.

Nath Forge Tempete.1645 · July 16, 2019

@Aeolus.3615 said:
@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Scourge hits 10 targets for 3k, 30k total dmg (half of which you have to be melee) . CoR hits 5 targets for 10-15 K per hit, at range, meaning 50-75k. With lower cd. One would argue that scourge's main job isnt damage, but that means one should know wvw basics. Yes, BASICS. Its 2019, scourges have been nerfed time and again, boons being spammed reign supreme, scrappers adding more sustain than ever, yet we still QQ about... Scourge and its targets.
insert Owen Wilson WOW meme

10 or 15 k on CoE Only if scourge has previously corrupt protection and aegis on the target

But giving the most broken example to defend the second best one isn't really helping.

I would use ele meteor, but it is a no brainer to try to get out of that big, bad Red AoE circle. Just like scourge shroud. Unlike CoR that has no visible tell. Oh well, I guess its back to basics for me!

You missed my point there buddy :D (or I missed yours)

I just telling that saying scourge is less cheesy than revenant is pretty irrelevant since revenant is the most cheesy build out there in WvW (and scourge comes second with firebrand) Basically every other class could fit that comparison with revenant.

So arguing that scourge is fine cause "worse" than revenant isn't really relevant and doesn't forgive that class for hitting 10 targets at a time.

End of Answer.

For the ppl that say that it's range etc . Most of impacts in WvW , scourges will hit at range and then hit in melee too with the impact(mostly downed body for sure). it will be 10 targets either way in most cases.

Rev is strong due visual that hides the animation of hammer skills. and the amount of vulnerability targets have.

U can’t dodge what u can’t see.

Out of topic :D thanks

Aeolus.3615 · July 16, 2019

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Aeolus.3615 said:
@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Scourge hits 10 targets for 3k, 30k total dmg (half of which you have to be melee) . CoR hits 5 targets for 10-15 K per hit, at range, meaning 50-75k. With lower cd. One would argue that scourge's main job isnt damage, but that means one should know wvw basics. Yes, BASICS. Its 2019, scourges have been nerfed time and again, boons being spammed reign supreme, scrappers adding more sustain than ever, yet we still QQ about... Scourge and its targets.
insert Owen Wilson WOW meme

10 or 15 k on CoE Only if scourge has previously corrupt protection and aegis on the target

But giving the most broken example to defend the second best one isn't really helping.

I would use ele meteor, but it is a no brainer to try to get out of that big, bad Red AoE circle. Just like scourge shroud. Unlike CoR that has no visible tell. Oh well, I guess its back to basics for me!

You missed my point there buddy :D (or I missed yours)

I just telling that saying scourge is less cheesy than revenant is pretty irrelevant since revenant is the most cheesy build out there in WvW (and scourge comes second with firebrand) Basically every other class could fit that comparison with revenant.

So arguing that scourge is fine cause "worse" than revenant isn't really relevant and doesn't forgive that class for hitting 10 targets at a time.

End of Answer.

For the ppl that say that it's range etc . Most of impacts in WvW , scourges will hit at range and then hit in melee too with the impact(mostly downed body for sure). it will be 10 targets either way in most cases.

Rev is strong due visual that hides the animation of hammer skills. and the amount of vulnerability targets have.

U can’t dodge what u can’t see.

Out of topic :D

Yah I know but rev is another story and people were starting to quote rev to much.

enkidu.5937 · July 16, 2019

Just curious, what scenario this thread refers to?

If boon corrupt is the major task for scourges, then why are 20 scourges often not enough to stab strip one single bubble bot? Why are the ppl on both sides are constantly covered with a handfull of boons?

(A) Is this thread about „casual zerg vs. casual zerg“?Then at least from my impressions, ppl are not able to reliably pull off coordinated combos:

bubble → stab corrupt → chrono pull → rev hammer → kill

Instead, scourge builds seem to be picked to just tag as many targets as possible, for that juicy loot.

(B) Is this thread about „fight guild vs. fight guild“?Then that combo could be countered with movement, cover boons, and all that nasty group sustain that a fight guild is capable to pull off. (???)

At least, I would agree right off the bat, that a self-bombing scourge ball is a cheesy way to call it a fight.

Noob PS: Anything known about boon strip priority? Like well of corruption that targets cover boons first? :)

nthmetal.9652 · July 16, 2019

@"Cuks.8241" said:AOE skills should not overlap. This is what many pvp games do to prevent AOE spam. Basically what this means is that you can cast multiple area of effect spells at a certain area but only one will ever hit the enemy in that area. At least for persistent area attacks, that work over a period of time.

If we ever want to get rid of the AoE / areal-denial meta we're rolling right now, this is exactly what needs to happen. Yeah, I can already see people complaining "but my skills are useless then" to which I'd say:

That's the price for having a ranged persistent (for a limited time) area effect
Want full effect? place area where there's not one down already

Chaba.5410 · July 16, 2019

@derd.6413 said:this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds.

Sounds more like group that can't melee push.

derd.6413 · July 16, 2019

@Chaba.5410 said:
@derd.6413 said:this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds.

Sounds more like group that can't melee push.

because ppl melee push with their necros appearently

Sovereign.1093 · July 16, 2019

please no nerf necro. necro is love.

Chaba.5410 · July 16, 2019

@derd.6413 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@derd.6413 said:this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds.

Sounds more like group that can't melee push.

because ppl melee push with their necros appearently

What do you think there is a spite/curses axe/scepter build for? Twiddling thumbs?

MedievalThings.5417 · July 16, 2019

Yeah, it's not like each scourge hits 10 players (shade plus self pulse ) for 2k+ each and 50 man zergs run with 20 scourges or anything. That certainly isn't the reality of things. oh wait, that is the meta...I wonder why that is?

sephiroth.4217 · July 17, 2019

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Shaogin.2679 said:Shade skills hit 5 targets if you take the trait Sand Savant. The other 5 targets are being hit from the attack that pulses off of your character when using a shade skill. The max targets you can hit from range therefore is still only 5.

not disputed, slightly irrelevant.

Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.

It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

A possible solution could be to put all effects on the shade and remove the double effect from the necromancer making scourge more dependant on positioning his shade. Obviously shade skills would then have to be buffed, which would cause a new issue of more ranged pressure.

5+5=10.

Shade skill is 10. 5 from the shade and 5 from the necro.

Shade skills activate on both the shade and the necro. 5 from both is a total of 10.

Sovereign.1093 · July 17, 2019

well necros need to be in melee range for this. i just wonder why players dont stack eles. i mean 2 to 3 ppl casting well placed meteors will melt them.

i mean necros may seem overpowered but... only if you are under staffed.

derd.6413 · July 17, 2019

@Ubi.4136 said:Yeah, it's not like each scourge hits 10 players (shade plus self pulse ) for 2k+ each and 50 man zergs run with 20 scourges or anything. That certainly isn't the reality of things. oh wait, that is the meta...I wonder why that is?

because the meta is heavily reliant on boons and scourge is the hardest counter to boonspam

@Chaba.5410 said:
@derd.6413 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@derd.6413 said:this would only be relevant in WvW where if a necro get's close enough to the enemy zerg to hit the max 10 ppl (because he has to get close) he's most of the time dead within 4 seconds.

Sounds more like group that can't melee push.

because ppl melee push with their necros appearently

What do you think there is a spite/curses axe/scepter build for? Twiddling thumbs?

both of those are mid range weapons and the necro's i've seen stay behind the melee train to spike down straglers and downed opponents and those that are at the forefront of a push usually go down really quickly.

Cyninja.2954 · July 17, 2019

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Shaogin.2679 said:Shade skills hit 5 targets if you take the trait Sand Savant. The other 5 targets are being hit from the attack that pulses off of your character when using a shade skill. The max targets you can hit from range therefore is still only 5.

not disputed, slightly irrelevant.

Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.

It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

A possible solution could be to put all effects on the shade and remove the double effect from the necromancer making scourge more dependant on positioning his shade. Obviously shade skills would then have to be buffed, which would cause a new issue of more ranged pressure.

5+5=10.

Shade skill is 10. 5 from the shade and 5 from the necro.

Shade skills activate on both the shade and the necro. 5 from both is a total of 10.

....

You basically repeated what I said but failed to grasp the actual significance...

Let me explain AGAIN:The 10 targets are not centered around the shade. If they were, this would be way easier to balance. Reduce the targets hit by 5 and the problem is mostly solved.

As is right now, 5 of the targets are centered around the necromancer and 5 more around the shade (which I explicitly stated) which forces him into melee range putting him at a severe disadvantage. To reduce the amount of targets hit, either the shade or the necromancer needs to hit less targets. Either approach causes further issues.

If the entire damage is placed on the shade, the necromancer loses his personal protection which would need to get balanced around. Way worse though, the shade would need to get buffed to compensate which in turn increases the range pressure scourge would have.

On the opposite, if the shade loses targets hit, the scourage loses range pressure and becomes even more deadly at close range making other aspects of the game mode difficult to balance, say when the scourge is being aggressed upon while on his own or while both blobs are runnung through each other.

Thank you for checking my math though and assuming I specifically stated what you said without knowing that 5+5 = 10.

sephiroth.4217 · July 17, 2019

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Shaogin.2679 said:Shade skills hit 5 targets if you take the trait Sand Savant. The other 5 targets are being hit from the attack that pulses off of your character when using a shade skill. The max targets you can hit from range therefore is still only 5.

not disputed, slightly irrelevant.

Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.

It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

A possible solution could be to put all effects on the shade and remove the double effect from the necromancer making scourge more dependant on positioning his shade. Obviously shade skills would then have to be buffed, which would cause a new issue of more ranged pressure.

5+5=10.

Shade skill is 10. 5 from the shade and 5 from the necro.

Shade skills activate on both the shade and the necro. 5 from both is a total of 10.

....

You basically repeated what I said but failed to grasp the actual significance...

Let me explain AGAIN:The 10 targets are not centered around the shade. If they were, this would be way easier to balance. Reduce the targets hit by 5 and the problem is mostly solved.

As is right now, 5 of the targets are centered around the necromancer and 5 more around the shade (which I explicitly stated) which forces him into melee range putting him at a severe disadvantage. To reduce the amount of targets hit, either the shade or the necromancer needs to hit less targets. Either approach causes further issues.

If the entire damage is placed on the shade, the necromancer loses his personal protection which would need to get balanced around. Way worse though, the shade would need to get buffed to compensate which in turn increases the range pressure scourge would have.

On the opposite, if the shade loses targets hit, the scourage loses range pressure and becomes even more deadly at close range making other aspects of the game mode difficult to balance, say when the scourge is being aggressed upon while on his own or while both blobs are runnung through each other.

Thank you for checking my math though and assuming I specifically stated what you said without knowing that 5+5 = 10.

We are talking about shade skills aren't we? 5 around the nec and 5 around the shade, that equals 10 doesn't it?

It doesnt matter if the necro has to be in range or what your bias list of pros and cons are.. We are talking about Shade skills and math.

So back to the point.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not irrelevant since your original claim was shade skills hit 10 targets.
It's 5 targets from shade and 5 targets from the necromancer who has to actually be in range.

Which equals 10.

spectrito.8513 · July 17, 2019

@Sovereign.1093 said:well necros need to be in melee range for this. i just wonder why players dont stack eles. i mean 2 to 3 ppl casting well placed meteors will melt them.
i mean necros may seem overpowered but... only if you are under staffed.

Cuz Eles dies before casting a full MS cast from retal =)

Sovereign.1093 · July 17, 2019

@spectrito.8513 said:
@Sovereign.1093 said:well necros need to be in melee range for this. i just wonder why players dont stack eles. i mean 2 to 3 ppl casting well placed meteors will melt them.
i mean necros may seem overpowered but... only if you are under staffed.

Cuz Eles dies before casting a full MS cast from retal =)

=) not when they are pampered by revs and fb and scourgies. kekeke

Cyninja.2954 · July 17, 2019

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Shaogin.2679 said:Shade skills hit 5 targets if you take the trait Sand Savant. The other 5 targets are being hit from the attack that pulses off of your character when using a shade skill. The max targets you can hit from range therefore is still only 5.