Traditional Tropes vs Innovation Ideations

[VocalThought.9835]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that ANet goes out it's way to create a new experience with each expansion. The only problem I see is, when it comes to the elite specializations, it's so far reaching that I think it's not interesting and far from what people are asking for. I, myself, perfer them to use elite specializations to expand the profession with classes we're all familiar with as opposed to new ideas. I liked the Druid and Berserker, but the Willbender and Bladesworn, I truely could careless for. I feel like the forums had better ideas and all of this was a waste of time. What's your thoughts?

Edited September 18, 2021 by VocalThought.9835

[Rogue.8235]

I prefer completely different and new things.  I get bored very easily with games that are too similar to other games I've played.  I want a unique experience with each game I play.  

So far, I'm liking the EoD specializations.  It changes up gameplay and let's me play differently.  

 

But yeah, just my opinion is all.  I can understand that different people like different things.  In your case, I can understand the desire for some more familiar gameplay styles.  Maybe the next batch will have something to your liking.

 

 

[Mungo Zen.9364]

3 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that ANet goes out it's way to create a new experience with each expansion. The only problem I see is, when it comes to the elite specializations, it's so far reaching that I think it's not interesting and far from what people are asking for. I, myself, perfer them to use elite specializations to expand the profession with classes we're all familiar with as opposed to new ideas. I liked the Druid and Berserker, but the Willbender and Bladesworn, I truely could careless for. I feel like the forums had better ideas and all of this was a waste of time. What's your thoughts?

Do you think the first 18 eSpecs were all equally good?  It is okay to find some not as interesting as others. I actually find most of the existing professions/eSpecs to be unplayable due to boring design and mechanics.  So far for the new ones I haven’t been wowed either, but I am sure when I can play them all one or two will stand out enough. 

[Sigmoid.7082]

Of course you want Anet to continually give you things that you want or find appealing, but you have to understand that, not only will this not happen but, the things that do not appeal to you or thing things you haven't asked for, someone else finds interesting and has asked for something like it. 

 

 

I always hated the argument "people aren't asking for this". People are, those people just are not you. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[VocalThought.9835]

10 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Of course you want Anet to continually give you things that you want or find appealing, but you have to understand that, not only will this not happen but, the things that do not appeal to you or thing things you haven't asked for, someone else finds interesting and has asked for something like it. 

 

 

I always hated the argument "people aren't asking for this". People are, those people just are not you. 

So your saying that people were asking for Eles to have gyros, Necros to have Pistols, and Revs to loose dodge? I'm not saying that ANet shouldn't be original, but I think they could get more players by having elites be able to fit classical tropes most people are familiar with, but allowing some flexibility within the traits to make them have some originality. Just my opinion.

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

So your saying that people were asking for Eles to have gyros, Necros to have Pistols, and Revs to loose dodge? I'm not saying that ANet shouldn't be original, but I think they could get more players by having elites be able to fit classical tropes most people are familiar with, but allowing some flexibility within the traits to make them have some originality. Just my opinion.

Not what I have said but...I mean you're doing it again. You've put a list of things which I can only assume you don't like or want and can't understand why other people would, because you don't, as well as once again proposing things would be better if the game appealed more to you and how you want it to be, even claiming that it would garner more players.

 

Its fine to want things or say give me more of what I want but, you still need to understand there is more to this game than just you and not everything needs to be designed or appeal to you or be changed to do so. I personally disagree with your opinion and position on the matter and am glad its the way it is especially because even amongst the system that you dislike, you've still manage to find things you like. There is something for everyone and this is just my opinion.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[VocalThought.9835]

14 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Do you think the first 18 eSpecs were all equally good?  It is okay to find some not as interesting as others. I actually find most of the existing professions/eSpecs to be unplayable due to boring design and mechanics.  So far for the new ones I haven’t been wowed either, but I am sure when I can play them all one or two will stand out enough. 

I think they were great. They all were recognizable, even if poorly named, to something we are familiar to in other fantasy lores. I would want more of the same. Plus, we already have enough skill type, why do we need new ones. I like when when people think inside the box, not so much thinking outside the box.  Isn't it great when things that are "predictable" are done so well they blow your mind?

[VocalThought.9835]

2 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Not what I have said but...I mean you're doing it again. You've put a list of things which I can only assume you don't like or want and can't understand why other people would, because you don't, as well as once again proposing things would be better if the game appealed more to you and how you want it to be, even claiming that it would garner more players.

 

Its fine to want things or say give me more of what I want but, you still need to understand there is more to this game than just you and not everything needs to be designed or appeal to you or be changed to do so. I personally disagree with your opinion and position on the matter and am glad its the way it is especially because even amongst the system that you dislike, you've still manage to find things you like. There is something for everyone and this is just my opinion.

Yeah, I get that. Hence why we're having the discussion to hear other opinions. I know I have a preference but hearing others and their arguments towards them can be insightful. 

[Mungo Zen.9364]

33 minutes ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I think they were great. They all were recognizable, even if poorly named, to something we are familiar to in other fantasy lores. I would want more of the same. Plus, we already have enough skill type, why do we need new ones. I like when when people think inside the box, not so much thinking outside the box.  Isn't it great when things that are "predictable" are done so well they blow your mind?

I bet given a little time being able to play the new eSpecs you will feel similarity about them as well. 

[Rogue.8235]

7 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

So your saying that people were asking for Eles to have gyros, Necros to have Pistols, and Revs to loose dodge? I'm not saying that ANet shouldn't be original, but I think they could get more players by having elites be able to fit classical tropes most people are familiar with, but allowing some flexibility within the traits to make them have some originality. Just my opinion.

YES.

I want extremely different experiences with each elite specialization.  I don't ask for specifics because I trust ArenaNet to figure out how to make them different enough.  

So yes, people do ask for totally different things.

There are people out there that dislike classical tropes and do ask for different things.

There are also people like you, who dislike different things and want familiarity.

There's lots of different kinds of people asking for lots of different kinds of things.  This includes things you could not conceive of on your own.

I asked ArenaNet for a warrior that uses pistols but punches with them instead.

On 8/5/2021 at 8:23 PM, Rogue.8235 said:

Dual pistols.

But, instead of shooting them, the warrior punches with them, firing the pistols on impact.   If mesmers can shoot with a greatsword and daggers, warriors can punch with pistols.

The elite spec has to be a pistol packing punching pugilist!

 

We ask for all sorts of crazy and normal things because there are many of us.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

I think that ultimately there's a balance, but the really important thing is catering to a range of styles and interpretations that fit the profession.

 

The two 'E' professions are a case in point. Of the three Elementalist elite specialisations, they're all interesting themes if taken individually. The problem is that the profession that has minimum base health and armour and which was originally presented as a standoff profession with the OPTION to go dagger for a more close-in style is now going to have three elite specialisations focused on close combat while ranged elementalist builds only receive scraps.

 

Engineer is looking to have a similar problem. Scrapper and holosmith are, fundamentally, both designed for power melee. You can apply their characteristics to other builds, but power melee is what makes the most of those specialisations. Meanwhile, the suspected engineer specialisation icon combined with mace mainhand is just screaming power melee again. Which might well be a great elite specialisation if considered in isolation, but what about catering to other ways of playing engineer?

 

So I think it's less a matter of innovation versus tradition and more a matter of variety. At some stage, there should be a point at which ArenaNet is willing to go 'okay, every elite specialisation this profession has is already doing something similar to our current idea, let's shelve that for a future expansion and come up with something radically different now'.

[VocalThought.9835]

After reviewing the new elites again, I have to take back my comments. For one, besides the names, these aren't new concepts. These are spins on traditional archetype and I just didn't notice it. I didn't realize that the Bladesworn is a take on the Samurai, the Catalyst is a nice a Battlemage, and the Virtuosos is the classic Psionic. Why didn't someone just tell me....

[Buran.3796]

   I think that while Guild Wars 2 is way better game than Black Desert Online and until Path of Fire Arenanet was able to create a rich variety of builds and class specializations, End of  Dragons so far did showcase that ideas and concepts for new specializations have started to overlap,  delivering  "new" gameplay styles which are too close to past experiences, whereas in BDO the latest class designs did provide more variety and better designed classes.

   I mean...   You can see how Bladesworn new features radically changes the way the class can be played, but with others specs as Willbender or Catalyst you end playing exactly the same character as a core Guardian or Elementalist, and just chosing a pair of new skills if much. That was not the case at PoF or HoT.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I think that while Guild Wars 2 is way better game than Black Desert Online and until Path of Fire Arenanet was able to create a rich variety of builds and class specializations, End of  Dragons so far did showcase that ideas and concepts for new specializations have started to overlap,  delivering  "new" gameplay styles which are too close to past experiences, whereas in BDO the latest class designs did provide more variety and better designed classes.

   I mean...   You can see how Bladesworn new features radically changes the way the class can be played, but with others specs as Willbender or Catalyst you end playing exactly the same character as a core Guardian or Elementalist, and just chosing a pair of new skills if much. That was not the case at PoF or HoT.

You may be wearing the rose glasses there. There were at least a couple of HoT elite specs that were accused of simply being core+. The current set, with the exception of Catalyst, do make solid efforts at changing how you play the profession, for better or worse.

[Panda.1967]

41 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There were at least a couple of HoT elite specs that were accused of simply being core+.

Reaper, Tempest, Berserker, Herald, Dragonhunter and Chronomancer were all Core+… and then there was Scrapper which got the classification of Core-… the only HoT specs that felt different from core in any way were Druid and Daredevil…

Jump over to PoF and we saw only one “Core+” elite spec… Deadeye… with Firebrand and Spellbreaker coming very close to also being Core+… they actually managed to make an elite spec for revenant that didn’t play exactly like core revenant with the Renegade, though it’s new mechanics were kinda lack luster, it atleast was something more than just a new legend, unlike Vindicator… and we all know Herald was just Revenant completed…

Sofar for EoD we have Vindicator and Catalyst as Core+, with Harbinger in this weird limbo area of Core+/-… the other three are distinctively different from their core professions… mostly in the sense that they are pretending to be a different core profession though… Bladesworn pretends to be Engineer, Willbender pretends to be Thief, and Vitruoso is just a better Mesmer without clones…

[draxynnic.3719]

I'd say that reaper and tempest do play noticeably differently to the core professions (if anything, weaver is probably closer to core ele than tempest if you're not using sword). Same with Deadeye, really - the ranged focus is a significant difference. Sure, you COULD build a deadeye that behaves similarly to core thief, but that doesn't change that you have some very different playstyles.

 

For EoD... I'd pretty much only say it applies to Catalyst. For Vindicator, I think the altered dodge and the flipover skills do give it a different playstyle, although to be fair it does follow the trend of revenant elite legends of having a mix of aggressive and supportive effects.

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You may be wearing the rose glasses there. There were at least a couple of HoT elite specs that were accused of simply being core+. The current set, with the exception of Catalyst, do make solid efforts at changing how you play the profession, for better or worse.

   Yes, they were some HoT specs fairly continuist, but much less with PoF (Deadeye, Firebrand, Scourge or Holosmith felt like entirely new classes), and my point is that if you look at the latest 7  classes introduced in BDO only the Hashashin resempbles vaguely a Ninja, whereas if you take a look at EoD, the Willbender is a core Guardian with poorer virtues and better mobility, the Catalyst is a dagger dagger core Ele with an F5 key, the Vindicator a core Rev running the same Shiro-Jalis with greatsword and a different evade and the Harbingera bursty single target focused core necro with better mobility to compensate the lost of the shroud sustain.

   When you're introducing new classes with new weapons, skills and traits which are objetively weaker than core specs and that make that 80% of the time people keep using older skills instead of the new ones feels like a sign about the new specs not being as interesting or viable as they should. And I would put a recent example of this: PoF was released four years ago but as a main Revenant user I didn't touch the Renegade until a year and half ago due how utterly useless was the spec at PvP/WvW.  Some of the classes recently portrayed in the beta felt just awful at different game modes.

   So I don't think that ANet is having succes at creating "entirely new experiences" but more like nailing it at "repeating the same basics" but with annoying handicaps which make some of them less practical and fun to play. So far I found Bladesworn and Vindicator interesting (but the Vindi has few novelties, the gs seems the only suable novelty) and in the other classes I would use current core/specs over the new ones.

[draxynnic.3719]

Eh, I'd call the leap replacing the dodge pretty novel for GW2, especially given that it's pretty clearly intended to be a big part of the elite spec with how the traits are set up. Power leap, healing leap, and the middle one seems oriented towards things like a celestial condition build (noticed how the legend has a bit of condi in there and the middle leap, along with a lot of greatsword skills, apply chill so they'll work with Abyssal Chill). 

 

It kinda feels a bit like you're confusing "I don't like it" with "not novel". Virtuoso is completely doing away with clones and replacing them with something that can be carried between combats - that's not going to behave like a regular mesmer who just has a few more options. You might have decided that the best way to play Vindicator is to continue using Shiro/Jalis, but that's where there's a need for a bit of polishing to the vassal pair. Willbender definitely needs some polishing, and it probably is one of the closer ones to the original, but once it is retuned I think it will actually turn out to be fairly different to core guardian or dragonhunter because of that orientation towards mobility and using virtues actively (and on shorter cooldowns even than core guardian). 

 

Maybe it's a case of drawing the line in different places, and PoF is possibly the high point here, but hey, if you run dagger/pistol deadeye and adopt a playstyle aimed at pulling off Malicious Backstabs, that'll probably feel a lot like regular thief too. And the truth with any elite specialisation is that it's going to be based off the core profession and so it's going to feel a bit like the core profession if you set up your build to track back in that direction. Necromancer might be an exception here because of the very different life force mechanics, but most professions you can pretty much make all their elite specialisations feel like core if you build that way.