Was Joko Right?

[Vayne.8563]

9 minutes ago, DaFishBob.6518 said:

Friendly Krait here:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raven's_Revered

I'd forgotten about that, but it doesn't change what I've said. The havroun summoning those krait is a necromancer. It's like saying minions are good or evil. These are obviously dead being summoned as minions by a powerful necromancer who controls them. I don't know that they're friendly only that they're allied, and my best guess would be it's not by choice. We have no real indication either way.

Edit: That he summons krait is listed as a bug in the wiki.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[DaFishBob.6518]

3 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'd forgotten about that, but it doesn't change what I've said. The havroun summoning those krait is a necromancer. It's like saying minions are good or evil. These are obviously dead being summoned as minions by a powerful necromancer who controls them. I don't know that they're friendly only that they're allied, and my best guess would be it's not by choice. We have no real indication either way.

Edit: That he summons krait is listed as a bug in the wiki.

Yeah I don't know the whole story about why he has Krait summons. The fact of the matter though is that I'm not doing him or the world any favors if I tried to kill them for my daily.

[Vayne.8563]

21 minutes ago, DaFishBob.6518 said:

Yeah I don't know the whole story about why he has Krait summons. The fact of the matter though is that I'm not doing him or the world any favors if I tried to kill them for my daily.

You are though. See your character isn't killing them for your dailies, because your character doesn't have an achievement panel. Achievements aren't really canon. They're a game mechanic that exists outside the game itself, they're meta if you will.

So your character isn't killing them for his daily even if you are. Your character would be killing them because they're krait. By the same token, you would be doing the Havroun favors, because he needs dead krait to summon. He's a necromancer after all. Thus live krait would be of little value to him.

[yann.1946]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

From the wiki:

 

Originally from the Unending Ocean, the krait rival even the charr for viciousness and cruel ingenuity. These intelligent creatures are vicious and xenophobic, attacking and enslaving all other species on sight.

So you think the char are inherently evil? 

 

Also this characteristics themselves don't make something inherently evil, for that we need to look at why they do these things. It also does not make then irredeemable. 

 

But you are right that we probably won't see a krait redemption arc as that would need an extremely nuanced take on all the kitten things they do and that would be a landmine. But that's an out of universe reason then anything else. 

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

So you think the char are inherently evil? 

 

Also this characteristics themselves don't make something inherently evil, for that we need to look at why they do these things. It also does not make then irredeemable. 

 

But you are right that we probably won't see a krait redemption arc as that would need an extremely nuanced take on all the kitten things they do and that would be a landmine. But that's an out of universe reason then anything else. 

All I'm really saying is that if something tried to kill me every time it saw me, I'd probably want to kill it too.

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

All I'm really saying is that if something tried to kill me every time it saw me, I'd probably want to kill it too.

And then the ones you killed see you the same way, and the circle goes around and around. 😄 

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, yann.1946 said:

And then the ones you killed see you the same way, and the circle goes around and around. 😄 

Nah, the first twenty times, they attacked first. I was never the aggressor. I become so out of necessity. 🙂

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Nah, the first twenty times, they attacked first. I was never the aggressor. I become so out of necessity. 🙂

Thats unironicly the argument the seperatists use to argue against the piece treaty with the char.

I really understand why you would want the krait to be the bad guys, and to be fair they are set up in the story specificly to be that, but maybe you shouldnt use xenophobic arguments to argue why they are. 😛

 

In the end the "killing" of all the adds is just an ingame representation of combat, nothing says you actually kill most things and whether all these fights are cannon. 😛

[Vayne.8563]

11 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Thats unironicly the argument the seperatists use to argue against the piece treaty with the char.

I really understand why you would want the krait to be the bad guys, and to be fair they are set up in the story specificly to be that, but maybe you shouldnt use xenophobic arguments to argue why they are. 😛

 

In the end the "killing" of all the adds is just an ingame representation of combat, nothing says you actually kill most things and whether all these fights are cannon. 😛

I don't know mate, my XP boosters seem to indicate I'm getting 10% bonus XP from kills. lol

[yann.1946]

24 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't know mate, my XP boosters seem to indicate I'm getting 10% bonus XP from kills. lol

I mean, if you want to say your character is a homocidal maniac you can i guess. Dont know why that is something you want to flex. 😛

[PseudoNewb.5468]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't know mate, my XP boosters seem to indicate I'm getting 10% bonus XP from kills. lol

/deaths seems to say that my character dies instead of being defeated.

[Tom.8029]

I guarantee you Krait are evil.  No exception.  There's lore about them enslaving all other life and using them as sacrifices to their gods.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Almost all dialogue in the game has tongue-in-cheek jabs at either the players or the devs themselves. Joko's speach was specifically formatted to both sound serious and to make fun of the game in this respect because players had been making this a point of interest especially on the forums and Reddit for years.

 

Of course they can't change it because that's just how MMOs work.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Joko was not right, within the game. Joko was right in the sense he is evil GW deadpool.

[DaZeeHero.5210]

(ignore accidental doublepost)

Edited September 19, 2021 by DaZeeHero.5210

[Rogue.8235]

5 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

I guarantee you Krait are evil.  No exception.  There's lore about them enslaving all other life and using them as sacrifices to their gods.

 

Are the Aztec evil?  They did the same thing.

[DaZeeHero.5210]

You know what's evil? Players who try and judge story and lore by in game mechanics and details that nobody ever intended to be used that way, lol.

[Kossage.9072]

On 9/18/2021 at 9:09 PM, yann.1946 said:

tbh, this one is an interesting point. Are krait inherently evil? Have me ever made an attempt to make an alliance with them?

 

There's never been any "good" alliance (that we know of at least) with any atoning krait. The oratuss priest caste (would be fun if they were led by a high priestess, but so far the highest-ranking krait we've seen have been oratuss) keeps a tight leash on the krait population, indoctrinating them to believe they're the superior race who will inherit Tyria and wash away the lesser, unworthy races once the abyssal prophets return and flood the world. Scarlet was able to lure some krait to her side and work alongside a Nightmare Court splinter faction in the Toxic Alliance by dangling obelisk shards in front of their snouts and making them believe that the Toxic Hybrid was one of their prophets but beyond that...
Interestingly young Cadeyrn (to-be Nightmare Court founder) and Niamh (founder of the Wardens) had an interesting philosophical debate about whether to spare the krait young they found after killing the adult krait who had been hunting and hurting sylvari, and their different opinions would be one of the key moments that led Cadeyrn down his dark, rebellious path into Nightmare's waiting arms. Their debate essentially boiled down to nature vs. nurture. Are krait inherently evil (as even the ANet blog post about krait suggested by calling them a "black hat" race with no redeemable qualities), or are they only that way because they've been indoctrinated by the oratuss to the faith of the prophets since hatching?

 

Quote

A krait sorceress's unblinking eyes widened as she wove a thaumaturgic web of slaughter, and two of the sylvari died in her flame. Fiercely, Cadeyrn leapt toward her, his blade tearing through the krait's flesh.

He left nothing behind but scale and scream.

When the krait were dead, Niamh and Cadeyrn stood in the center of the ruined chapel, blood on their blades and fierce smiles lighting their faces. A sound caught his attention, and he raised a hand for silence, slipping forward to the place where he had seen movement from above.

Cadeyrn tilted the altar aside, and the sound grew louder. Beneath the stone lay a cave, long ago flooded by the advance of the sea. There, in a sea-cavern below the ruins, krait lay in hiding, unperturbed by the icy waters. But these were not warriors. This was a hatchery, filled with krait eggs and terrified young.

He raised his sword to continue the extermination—

"Cadeyrn!" Niamh said sharply.

Cadeyrn paused, looking up at the leader of his Cycle in confusion.

"Leave them."

"But...they are krait."

"They are children."

"Children." He frowned, for the word had little meaning. "You mean 'they are small.' They are small, but they are krait. They will grow up to be large krait, and then we will kill them. Why not kill them now, when it is easy and they are undefended? It seems the wisest course of action. Otherwise, we risk losing more sylvari lives when these return fully grown."

"We must take that risk, to give them a chance to change their ways," the firstborn said. "All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed." Soberly, she put away her sword and pushed the altar back. Beneath it, Cadeyrn could hear the snakes scrambling, splashing away into the ocean tide.

"Again the firstborn quote the Tablet when I ask for logic." He growled beneath his breath. "I do not agree." (Source)

I'd side with Niamh's side in the argument. No matter how awful things the krait have done, they should be allowed a chance to redeem themselves and prove that they can coexist with other races. If atonement was always denied, Efram's Flame Legion would never have survived to the present day, nor would Valette Wi have ever earned her redemption.

However, actually meeting krait not indoctrinated by the ever-dominant oratuss would be a difficult task indeed, or even finding an oratuss who starts to question the ever-altered religious texts that the oratuss have been memorizing and changing Vedic-style without writing it down. Even the young krait whom Niamh spared would likely be taught to view her act of mercy as a weakness to be exploited by the master race if they ever questioned why a sylvari would spare their kind.

I could see us playing future content where we meet a rebellious krait splinter faction who have been declared as heretics for trying to see the world with eyes unclouded by religious hate. I never really subscribed to the "black hat" theory of an inherently evil race as each race and individual should have a chance to be good, evil or various shades in between. I'd argue that even demons, who are born from actual malignant energies in the Mists and are thus pure evil, could be redeemed if written well enough with a compelling narrative, so I don't see why krait couldn't benefit from such treatment as well. It's not like ANet hasn't expanded existing content like how we finally met female dredge in Thunderhead Peaks. 🙂

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Not to mention in tabletop roleplaying the Evil alignment is defined as how selfish someone is and acts. Chaotic Evil is someone who acts selfishly with no thought at all for others and according to no form of rules at all.

 

And as we know, Selfishness is a form of Greed. and Greed is hardly inherently evil.

"I want money, I want power, I want to protect the world, I want to save everyone" are all some form of greed or another.

Edited September 20, 2021 by DaZeeHero.5210

[Tom.8029]

18 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

Are the Aztec evil?  They did the same thing.

They Aztec also participated in sports, traded with people from other groups and aided in the creation of chocolate.  They also popularized popcorn and chewing gum.

 

The Krait were driven from their lands by the deep sea dragon and invaded other territories to satisfy their needs, abducting people of any race or age.

 

These two are not the same thing.  So maybe calm down.

[Tom.8029]

All I'm saying is that thus far, there really haven't been any redeeming qualities about the Krait.  All the good things about them, they've kept to themselves.  Does that mean they all deserve to die?  No.  Should there be opportunity for redemption?  Of course.  But I also think if you try to answer this question from the perspective of a Tyrian., maybe someone who's lost a loved one to the Krait, the answer will be much more complicated.

[Rogue.8235]

3 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

All I'm saying is that thus far, there really haven't been any redeeming qualities about the Krait.  All the good things about them, they've kept to themselves.  Does that mean they all deserve to die?  No.  Should there be opportunity for redemption?  Of course.  But I also think if you try to answer this question from the perspective of a Tyrian., maybe someone who's lost a loved one to the Krait, the answer will be much more complicated.

 

You remind me of the vast amount of ambient dialogue concerning centaurs.  Very complex issue there as well.  I enjoy such complexities, which is why Krait are disappointing as they are currently written and presented.  I'm never a fan of cultures that are one dimensional (in this case the one dimension being evil slavers).

What I want to point out is that it is nigh-impossible for sapient beings to be so one-dimensional.  There's still hope that ArenaNet expands what the Krait are and can be.

[DaZeeHero.5210]

I'd love to see a more friendly or just reasonable tribe of krait, maybe in an isolated area, some krait who do not worship the evil whats it called exsist. maybe we can help them stay independent.

[draxynnic.3719]

On the krait side...

 

It'll be interesting to see how ArenaNet interpret the naga in EoD. GW2 krait are physiologically pretty much identical to GW1 naga, so it's possible that they're technically the same or at least closely related species, and the naga were mostly friendly until they blamed all humanity for the Jade Wind. So if they do go with the interpretation that the naga were an offshoot of krait that migrated to the Jade Sea (possibly to get away from the deep sea krait), that might be an example of good krait - not presently, but historically.

 

As for Joko... like a lot of what he says, it's ultimately an exercise of rewriting history in a self-serving way. He's not entirely wrong, in that our actions have led to some negative consequences... but what he's ignoring is that things would likely be worse if we hadn't done what we did. Ultimately, the PC has had a positive impact on the world - at least from the perspective of the sapient races that were the main victims of Elder Dragon privation - it's just that most of that impact has come from (knowingly or unknowingly) choosing the lesser of two evils. His speech was simply the reveal of how he was going to rewrite history to justify killing the PC... and the abrupt ending demonstrated the flaw in his interpretation. His immortality didn't extend to being eaten by a dragon, and he shows no sign of having any plan to deal with Kralkatorrik. Heck, it'd be completely in character for his plan for a response to Kralkatorrik attacking Elona being to sacrifice the entire country to ensure that the dragon doesn't get him, and he'll just emerge again and rule over the ashes once the dragons have gorged themselves and returned to rest.

[Rogue.8235]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:24 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

On the krait side...

 

It'll be interesting to see how ArenaNet interpret the naga in EoD. GW2 krait are physiologically pretty much identical to GW1 naga, so it's possible that they're technically the same or at least closely related species, and the naga were mostly friendly until they blamed all humanity for the Jade Wind. So if they do go with the interpretation that the naga were an offshoot of krait that migrated to the Jade Sea (possibly to get away from the deep sea krait), that might be an example of good krait - not presently, but historically.

 

As for Joko... like a lot of what he says, it's ultimately an exercise of rewriting history in a self-serving way. He's not entirely wrong, in that our actions have led to some negative consequences... but what he's ignoring is that things would likely be worse if we hadn't done what we did. Ultimately, the PC has had a positive impact on the world - at least from the perspective of the sapient races that were the main victims of Elder Dragon privation - it's just that most of that impact has come from (knowingly or unknowingly) choosing the lesser of two evils. His speech was simply the reveal of how he was going to rewrite history to justify killing the PC... and the abrupt ending demonstrated the flaw in his interpretation. His immortality didn't extend to being eaten by a dragon, and he shows no sign of having any plan to deal with Kralkatorrik. Heck, it'd be completely in character for his plan for a response to Kralkatorrik attacking Elona being to sacrifice the entire country to ensure that the dragon doesn't get him, and he'll just emerge again and rule over the ashes once the dragons have gorged themselves and returned to rest.

👏 👏 golf clap  👏 👏

 

I really like this interpretation, which is logically consistent enough to be an explanation.  

Joko is a great orator and very persuasive. He's also, ultimately, only looking out for himself.  

I mean, seriously, how many pictures of yourself do you really need.