[PVE]My feedback - Vindicator needed redesign

[SachanHD.1784]

Hello everyone,

I will talk about PVE because I play Fractal, Raids, Stike most of the time.

 

Revenant needs good power dps builds, which still does not exist.

You can debate if every spec really needs to be useful in every game mode, but so far vidicator has not turned out to be the pve power dps spec that many rev players have been hoping for. It might be able to heal, but it doesn't have any good buffs to make it a competitive healer either. Apparently, the dodge is not only unimpressive, but also has a long aftercast during which you do not evade.

Super disappointed in Vindicator honestly. Greatsword Revenant had the opportunity to be really kitten cool, and Vindicator has some really cool concepts, but it honestly just feels like they botched it completely.

Why are they so intent on making third revenant elite spec another support hybrid? After intentionally nerfing renegades power damage, Vindicators feels like it should be power dps by design.

Honestly right now I can see it being pretty much not useful outside of PvP, which makes me sad.

Numbers can be tweaked easy enough, but some things need straight up mechanical changes to make them not feel awkward.

It has potential for sure, but its just not there atm. It could absolutely be saved still, but it definitely needs some substantial changes nonetheless.

 

What would I start with
First totaly change (Create new) Animation  skill GS 1 to 5 - Why?  these skils have nothing special [5] same animation on Reaper [2]. [Auto-Attack]  looks same Warrior [AA] and [2] again same aniamtion [AA], no filing and slowly, peper dmg "To compare: (Reaper got new animation [AA] and other skill same Warrior on Bladesworn) so..

[F2] - Ehhh, now is bothering so far, I think it would be best to add [F3] to change legend in legends(not flip skills automatically, make F2 flip them and F3 to be new "Dodge", or bring back normal dodges)

Dodge - Looks good but takes too long and long to load, out of the game too long, little dmg, no use in PVE... one dodge is not enough.

Heal skill, Utility, Elite - like a GS, no filling, paper dmg and Animation ehhh ahh...

Traits - They have no damage buffers, everything is Dodge or Endurance (Yes last traits gives 15% dmg 10s but DODGE...)

Short and to the point

 

Overall, I am disappointed that another Revenant Specializations is missing Power Build.
Hopefully ArenaNet will listen to FeedBacks and the final release will be good!

 

P.S. Thanks for giving Revenant a Greatsword, been praying since the HoT premiere  🙂

Regards!

Edited September 26, 2021 by SachanHD.1784

[Obtena.7952]

49 minutes ago, SachanHD.1784 said:

Hello everyone,

I will talk about PVE because I play Fractal, Raids, Stike most of the time.

 

Revenant needs good power dps builds, which still does not exist.

 

You struck out on the first pitch. Revenant doesn't have a 'good power DPS' build? The hell it doesn't! It has some of the BEST power DPS build in the game. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[SachanHD.1784]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

You struck out on the first pitch. Revenant doesn't have a 'good power DPS' build? The hell it doesn't!

 

I don't write about Condi DMG, i mean Power DMG

Renegade still beter Sup/Dmg Alac or Condi DPS, Heal Renagde for Raids, always has been.

Renegade it was never focused on Power Damage, same Herald
 

 

[Obtena.7952]

58 minutes ago, SachanHD.1784 said:

 

I don't write about Condi DMG, i mean Power DMG

Renegade still beter Sup/Dmg Alac or Condi DPS, Heal Renagde for Raids, always has been.

Renegade it was never focused on Power Damage, same Herald
 

 

Yeah don't worry, I can read. I know what you meant. In fact, I know what you meant better than you said it ... because  none of what you said there is an indication that Revenant doesn't have a good power DPS build. What you WANT to say is that Revenant power DPS build isn't meta for group content. 

I can assure you, Vindicator does not need a re-design just because Rev power DPS isn't meta for Raids.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[phokus.8934]

Power Rev is non-existent so they definitely need to up the damage with greatsword in some fashion.

F2 costs way too much energy and should be instant cast or at least 1/4.

Lastly, the dodge needs major fixing as you can still get cc'd while performing it and the after cast animation needs to go.

[Kain Francois.4328]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:38 PM, SachanHD.1784 said:

 

Revenant needs good power dps builds, which still does not exist.

Herald can achieve very reliable 30k dps with buffs for your team, including 10man life steal. Meanwhile, Core Revenant can do consistent 30k dps using just autos and maintaining Impossible Odds. Even Alacrigade can do respectable dps while supporting allies.

Revenant can achieve these acceptable numbers, all while having massive self-sustain with Battle Scars, while also buffing Ferocity of their team. Sounds darn good to me. Overpowered even.

Why should Revenant be able to do more power damage without sacrificing the Devastation traitline?

 

edit: fixed typoes. Also, L M A O at the confused reactions. You still haven't made your argument yet why Revenant should be able to do more damage while still having access to Devastation?

Edited October 2, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Nephalem.8921]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah don't worry, I can read. I know what you meant. In fact, I know what you meant better than you said it ... because  none of what you said there is an indication that Revenant doesn't have a good power DPS build. What you WANT to say is that Revenant power DPS build isn't meta for group content. 

I can assure you, Vindicator does not need a re-design just because Rev power DPS isn't meta for Raids.

And i can assure you that auto attacking with s/s on shiro/jalis is not a top build. Even if it would do high dps. That is power herald currently. Power renegade is at least a bit more interesting but only works on big hitboxes because the citadel spread is massive.

 

Vindicator's alliance is another weird support legend. The 3rd now. Most working pvp builds i've seen havent used alliance either. So the alliance legend definitely needs a lot of help. Both skill sets just dont synergize at all. Why exactly do they have a flip mechanic? You cant combo from first skill into flip or vice versa. Makes 0 sense design wise. Its 2 completely different legends glued together.

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

Yeah, Vindicator needs a redesign.
It feels like the devs themself aren't sure, what they want the Vindicator to be.

And the weak noodle legend of the Jade Winds first victims doesn't help.

No clear theme, to tie it together, just some "hey, wouldn't that mechanic sound cool?" things.

 

In all honesty: Back to the drawing board.

[SachanHD.1784]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Power renegade is at least a bit more interesting but only works on big hitboxes because the citadel spread is massive

Exactly right, well described

There are several big hitboxes in the game..

Edited September 25, 2021 by SachanHD.1784

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

And i can assure you that auto attacking with s/s on shiro/jalis is not a top build. Even if it would do high dps. That is power herald currently. Power renegade is at least a bit more interesting but only works on big hitboxes because the citadel spread is massive.

OK ... No one claimed that camping AA on Shiro/Jalis was a top build (here is that meta talk again) so 👍 Again, it's not even relevant if it is or not, and it's certainly not a reason to change Vindicator. Clearly, I'm simply telling the OP (and you apparently) that not being meta isn't a reason to redseign Vindicator, or as you have seen me over and over again, change a class at all. You know I'm right too ... because as we get more especs, they can't all have meta builds. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kidel.2057]

I'm not a fan of F2 to swap into legend. I think that F2 to "invert" like it's now sucks too however. A freeze or a reset would be better.

But, most importantly, F2 should be separated into 2 skills: one for energy management, one for loadout management. 

[Loules.8601]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You know I'm right too ... because as we get more especs, they can't all have meta builds.

Nope, every normal spec have meta-build. It can be only secondary and "very rare pick" option - but its still here. If spec don't have such option, it's mean only one thing - this spec DIDN'T WORK in the current game. Meta - not min/max ranking, it's baseline of "working" in PvE (for PvP it's more personal). 
Meta-build in most people eyes - strongest option for current game. But many forget that you have not only "S-tier" meta, but "A" and "B" etc., tiers too. But if spec don't have even this - it's just "useless" as specialization (not as wardrobe) in the game. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Loules.8601 said:

Nope, every normal spec have meta-build. It can be only secondary and "very rare pick" option - but its still here. If spec don't have such option, it's mean only one thing - this spec DIDN'T WORK in the current game. Meta - not min/max ranking, it's baseline of "working" in PvE (for PvP it's more personal). 

Again, the point here is that class isn't balanced around being meta. What I said isn't wrong here. Even if every spec has a meta build, that doesn't mean Anet designs specs to be meta. That is a trend that can't continue, because eventually, there are more specs than there is 'meta spots' to fill them, so the idea that Anet is designing specs for meta isn't a good idea or sustainable anyways. Meta is not engineered by Anet, it's simply a consequence of content design and the build characteristics that best complete that content. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jthug.9506]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:27 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

You struck out on the first pitch. Revenant doesn't have a 'good power DPS' build? The hell it doesn't! It has some of the BEST power DPS build in the game. 

Power herald benches like 32-33k at best(I can't even find a bench of this build from the last 3 years to cite that doesn't give up forceful persistence for draconic echo {28k hybrid dps}, but in any case it's not going to hit power renegade numbers), power renegade used to bench almost 37k on a large hit box Guild Wars 2 - Power Renegade Benchmark (May 11 / 2021 - Retribution) - 36.952 - YouTube this was pre battle scars nerf, but 🤷‍♂️meh swift termination is nearly as good(I would guess it now might bench 36k flat), however this build requires 100% resolution and weakness uptime from other sources which is not necessarily realistic, if you run invocation it drops down to 34-35k, but with an easier rotation than power herald.

Both specs are NOT up there with the best power DPS builds in the game, such as dragonhunter(40k), chronomancer(39k), deadeye(39k), berserker (37.6k), weaver(37k), holosmith(37k), soulbeast(36.5k) all of which can hit these numbers on small OR large hitboxes, not to mention what some of the beta power specs have been benching. See :Benchmarks | Snow Crows.

In fact if you are just looking at small hitboxes revenant has the lowest pure power dps option of any class right now, and if you consider large hit boxes the only one that barely falls below it would be reaper at 34k. But reaper can easily maintain permanent self quickness and 25 stacks of might on it's own while having essentially 2 health pools, 2 dodges and superior 5 target cleave. Power renegade on the other hand can optionally maintain 25 stacks of might for it's subgroup only, and at the cost of energy and therefore dps, and if you do dodge it's going to drop your critical chance by 33% until your endurance completely recovers.

I personally think that it would be perfectly reasonable to buff vindicator pve dps (currently 31k) to somewhere between 37 and 41k in light of the current situation. In pve, herald would become a defacto 10 target heal boon support or hybrid power boon support, renegade would become a defacto condi damage or 10 target alac dps support, and vindicator would be the go to power dps option, or 5 target meme jumpy barrier healer. And revenant mains would finally have a solid top tier power dps option in pve.

As I have suggested many times in other threads on this sub, all anet would have to do to achieve this with Vindicator is to split the Forerunner of Death buff (15% damage for 15s)  across pve and wvw/pvp so that it is more effective in pve, probably somewhere between 35% and 45%. Simple, elegant, effective.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Katary.7096]

5 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Both specs are NOT up there with the best power DPS builds in the game, such as dragonhunter(40k), chronomancer(39k), deadeye(39k), berserker (37.6k), weaver(37k), holosmith(37k), soulbeast(36.5k) all of which can hit these numbers on small OR large hitboxes, not to mention what some of the beta power specs have been benching. See :Benchmarks | Snow Crows.

Virtues Dragonhunter benefits from Aegis uptime, power Chronomancer needs Slow on the target and Rifle Deadeye has to be kneeling for maximum damage output. These benchmarks, same as power Renegade, are not necessarily realistic either.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Both specs are NOT up there with the best power DPS builds in the game,

OK ... that's not a problem that requires a redesign of Vindicator. Again, I'm not wrong ... not being meta isn't a problem. Even if it is, more DPS isn't necessarily the solution either. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[phokus.8934]

8 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Power herald benches like 32-33k at best(I can't even find a bench of this build from the last 3 years to cite that doesn't give up forceful persistence for draconic echo {28k hybrid dps}, but in any case it's not going to hit power renegade numbers), power renegade used to bench almost 37k on a large hit box Guild Wars 2 - Power Renegade Benchmark (May 11 / 2021 - Retribution) - 36.952 - YouTube this was pre battle scars nerf, but 🤷‍♂️meh swift termination is nearly as good(I would guess it now might bench 36k flat), however this build requires 100% resolution and weakness uptime from other sources which is not necessarily realistic, if you run invocation it drops down to 34-35k, but with an easier rotation than power herald.

Both specs are NOT up there with the best power DPS builds in the game, such as dragonhunter(40k), chronomancer(39k), deadeye(39k), berserker (37.6k), weaver(37k), holosmith(37k), soulbeast(36.5k) all of which can hit these numbers on small OR large hitboxes, not to mention what some of the beta power specs have been benching. See :Benchmarks | Snow Crows.

In fact if you are just looking at small hitboxes revenant has the lowest pure power dps option of any class right now, and if you consider large hit boxes the only one that barely falls below it would be reaper at 34k. But reaper can easily maintain permanent self quickness and 25 stacks of might on it's own while having essentially 2 health pools, 2 dodges and superior 5 target cleave. Power renegade on the other hand can optionally maintain 25 stacks of might for it's subgroup only, and at the cost of energy and therefore dps, and if you do dodge it's going to drop your critical chance by 33% until your endurance completely recovers.

I personally think that it would be perfectly reasonable to buff vindicator pve dps (currently 31k) to somewhere between 37 and 41k in light of the current situation. In pve, herald would become a defacto 10 target heal boon support or hybrid power boon support, renegade would become a defacto condi damage or 10 target alac dps support, and vindicator would be the go to power dps option, or 5 target meme jumpy barrier healer. And revenant mains would finally have a solid top tier power dps option in pve.

As I have suggested many times in other threads on this sub, all anet would have to do to achieve this with Vindicator is to split the Forerunner of Death buff (15% damage for 15s)  across pve and wvw/pvp so that it is more effective in pve, probably somewhere between 35% and 45%. Simple, elegant, effective.

Vindicator is kind of in a void and has an identity crisis.  It's clear that they wanted it as a DPS elite as is evident based on what they said and that we have greatsword.  A mediocre damage spec that has no purpose is a problem that needs fixing.  I have a feeling that they will moderately buff the elites without going bananas so I'm hoping after a few iterations it will be a competent DPS spec.

Edited September 28, 2021 by phokus.8934
Phone grammatical mistakes.

[Jthug.9506]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... that's not a problem that requires a redesign of Vindicator. Again, I'm not wrong ... not being meta isn't a problem. Even if it is, more DPS isn't necessarily the solution either. 

But you were wrong in saying it had one of the best power dps specs in the game, when in fact as I have shown it has one of the if not the worst depending on target hitbox size. Also I am not suggesting a redesign, but a simple trait split across game modes, something which is done all the time in balance revisions. Standard practice. OP even acknowledged that playing with the numbers would potentially satisfy his desire for good power dps performance. OP was suggesting redesign because of issues of clunky awkwardness he experienced in the beta period.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Jthug.9506]

2 hours ago, Katary.7096 said:

Virtues Dragonhunter benefits from Aegis uptime, power Chronomancer needs Slow on the target and Rifle Deadeye has to be kneeling for maximum damage output. These benchmarks, same as power Renegade, are not necessarily realistic either.

Granted, although aegis isn't all that hard to come by in many comps, slow yeah it's a bit rough, although condi ren sb4 keeps it up 100%. Kneeling sucks, not many people actually run deadeye, but still you can't deny that renegade is at or near the bottom of the pile with reaper depending on hitbox size.

[Jthug.9506]

36 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Vindicator is kind of in a void and has an identity crisis.  It's clear that they wanted it as a DPS elite as is evident based on what they said and that we have greatsword.  A mediocre damage spec that has no purpose is a problem that needs fixing.  I have a feeling that they will moderately buff the elites without going bananas so I'm hoping after a few iterations it will be a competent DPS spec.

I think the vast majority of revenant players would share this hope.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Jthug.9506 said:

But you were wrong in saying it had one of the best power dps specs in the game

No, that's not wrong ... best isn't just a function of what is highest DPS in instanced group content. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jthug.9506]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not wrong ... best isn't just a function of what is highest or what is only relevant to instanced group content. 

whatever

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

whatever

Exactly ... the second someone reminds people that class balance isn't only about what is meta in instanced content, these arguments for changes to the classes fall apart. What I said wasn't wrong ... you just don't see it's relevance because of your own perception of the game. 

If you are hoping to get meta relevant DPS values on Vindicator because of 'balance' ... I think you are going to be waiting quite a while.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jthug.9506]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Exactly ... the second someone reminds people that class balance isn't only about what is meta in instanced content, these arguments for changes to the classes fall apart. What I said wasn't wrong ... you just don't see it's relevance because of your own perception of the game. 

You are wrong, you were wrong, and now you are arguing about something that can't be supported by facts, only your subjective opinion. You are trolling, and I am done feeding you. I knew when I initially replied to you that you have been a terrible troll on these forums for years, but I just couldn't let you sit there and make an absolutely false claim unchallenged. However at this point you are just flailing desperately so I am done with you. Feel free to have the last word hollow though it may be.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

You are wrong and now you are arguing about something that can't be supported by facts, only your subjective opinion.  I am done feeding you.

No you aren't ... or you wouldn't have replied. The fact is that Vindicator doesn't need to change because it's not meta-level DPS. That IS supported by facts because not everything is meta and even if it is, not necessarily because of its DPS. So no, I'm not wrong. 'not meta DPS' is NOT a reason to change Vindicator. That's actually a WELL supported fact by the history of the game. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952