Mercenary System Curiosity

[Salvatore.3749]

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I never said I wanted to play people with meta builds nor that I require them to do that. In fact, I keep reminding you that it's not needed and there's plenty of squads available where people don't follow the meta nor do they care if anything's following it as long as people are pulling their own weight (as in: not leeching). I also specifically told you that I never -NOT ONCE- saw anyone in content like dungeons to try and check who plays what and then enforce any build or playstyle on anything and I've done plenty of those runs strictly through lfg.
How did you go from what I said here to your weird unsubstanciated conclusion about me being a player that wants people to play meta, while I'm myself (according to you) blindly following the meta trends and waiting for them to change just so I can keep following them? Your claim is based on nothing and it has nothing to do with reality.

Yes, I did say you wanted to change the game, because that's a fact. It doesn't somehow make me a meta-follower, this is in no way a valid conclusion to draw from what you've just recalled. Literally how did you go from "point a" to "point b" here? 🤦‍♂️ 

If you go back to my posts in this therad you'll see me talking about this system and how it has a possibility to either:

a) be absolutely broken, because it will carry the players through content (a.k.a self-play)

b) be useless, because if it won't have the potential to carry the player, the npcs will arguable not making a difference -like for the most part the once we currently have in story content

c) require so much time and effort in development of a fully fledged new complex system that not only it will be too hard to use for casual players (which were your main target according to your initial posts in this thread), but also will be a waste of time and effort where there's much more to add/fix/rework in the game as it currently is (which I also mentioned, but you've dismissed it as something that's supposed to be left for another thread).

As a reminder, you claimed you've "read that between the lines", when that's specifically what I was talking about, so it wasn't some sort of my hidden concern.

tl;dr: for me there's no way to reasonably develop this system, so if YOU have an idea how it should work, then that's the question to ask yourself, not me, because for me it simply doesn't have a good solution to implement for the reasons stated above.

Unfortunately, I have gone through unique experiences being a thief in dungeons, raids, and other pve content and was kicked because I didn't have a fully completed guardian/DH at the time. Things like that do happen and they happen often. That's the reality of community as is.

We discussed the meta thing multiple times. If you don't believe in the meta trends, then I'll take what you say at face-value. It seems like you don't like things deviating from the current gameplay mechanic., but again you say you are okay with a change, so I'll take it at face-value. Also, I apologize offended you in anyway. I really wasn't making up lies of you. I was responding to you because it seems like you didn't understand what I was saying. 

I remember your earlier posts and none of them said how the system would work. You said why it wouldn't work for the same reasons you listed.  We've gone through this circle plenty of times. 

Now, I suggested the system would work for instanced content only. It needs a good command system and for it to be balanced for content to be completed efficiently.

How it would be balanced is a different question in itself?

Someone who has 6 other characters versus someone who has 3 other characters would be able to complete farming runs more effectively or with less party members. That would mean that higher level and skilled players are rewarded more than newer players simply because they have more equipment and resources than newer players do. Considering that aspect, the value to newer players wouldn't come  in until they decide to purchase or attempt HoT, where story AI was harder than core. Dungeons would become easier the more characters they made and leveled up

As far as making it work, a command system that can tell the AI what to do when it comes to interacting in the game's non-enemy elements would be the first step. Ensuring the AI could stand, jump, wait, pick up items, etc. 

The next step would be combat, some kind of system to pre-determine when the AI will act and how it will act, real time and planned would be necessary for it's success. Since dodging is really important in GW2 during gameplay, there needs to be some kind of function for a whole team dodge roll or function for the whole team to avoid orange squares at all costs. Some type of function to have a character solely kite and cast the entire time during a boss fight. A function for characters to use utilities when party member health drops below a certain threshold. There would need to be some type of function to set up combo fields. Something for them to be purely offensive, purely defensive, and purely pacifistic to focus on grabbing items. 

I could go on with this type of combat system. It doesn't seem too hard to come up with the idea, but implementing it is a different story. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Salvatore.3749

[SoulGuardian.6203]

@Sobx.1758

You certainly spend a lot of time trying to prove why mercs is a bad idea.

You definitely feel very passionate about game changing, to the points of going through everything posted and try twist words in order to try ridicule people, because you can't come up with a plausible explanation, other than you are against it.

 

Ok.

Saying that content is solo-able and the personal story is stating so, it's not the same  as a single player game, by any stretch of the imagination. Period.

Besides, so you're saying that because someone not always feels like playing with other people, should go play a single player game instead of GW!?

You are really doing Anet a huge favour.

*sarcasm.

 

As someone else already mentioned before; you are getting very emotional over this matter and shows your aggressiveness towards other people, instead of finding a good reason, you are spending time quoting everything people say to use as munition towards them.

 

I've been reading your replies to other posters, and you're doing the exact same thing. Using the exact same method.

 

I know what I've posted, and I know the difference of everything I have posted.

If you don't, or are choosing not to aknowledge that, then there's no point in carrying on this discussion.

You just go around in a loop, but still come up with the same answer everytime.

"It's an mmo, it should be played with other players"

"That's its purpose", and so on.

But then you contradict yourself, then deny it.

 

Ok. I get it.

For you mercs are bad. You don't want them.

It stops others from playing in group.

 

Why should you care?

How does it affect you in any way, shape, or form, if some people would like to form a party of their own favourite created characters?

You're saying that people should not enjoy GW because they rather have a merc party than playing with other players, because of their own reasons?

I'm sure that ANet's marketing and financial team would love to hear from you.

 

Hey everybody, you want mercs?

Go play something else.

 

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

So you are concerned about the decline of players, yet you tell them to go play a single player game.

Because that's a better solution, isn't it?

Don't find a solution, get rid of it.

That sort of destructive rationale isn't solving anything, now is it?

 

What happens when eventually, after eod, people will move on to other games?

Would you rather ANet shut down, or find a solution to keep the fans?

 

That solution may just well be mercs, as they did in GW1.

 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/30/2021 at 10:16 PM, Salvatore.3749 said:

You sure are pure magic.  A great ray of sunshine. 

Honestly, I don't know why I need to apologize at all. I was just trying to be civil. 

That's what I'm talking about. Despite me quoting your false claim about me multiple times, you still say you don't know what it's about (and that's ok, who knows, maybe I'm just explaining it badly -the thing is I don't know how to explain it any better than I did in my previous posts). Hence why apologizing there was clearly meaningless and pointless. And also why I said "whatever", as in it doesn't really matter.

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Truthfully, I couldn't care less if I hurt your feelings or not. If you died, I wouldn't care. To me, your life is meaningless because you're not important to me.  It is what it is.

So much for saying I'm the one being emotional here. But yes, we're just random people on the internet, I don't expect you to care about me, I'm here for the discussion.

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As for the conversation, you hate the idea and we all get it. I'm not carrying on this conversation at this point because it's a full on dead end and you just want to be right. Yeah, I'm telling you that you want to be right and that's not a lie. 

No, I don't "hate" it. I specifically explained what's wrong with it. It doesn't make me "hate it", it just makes me think it's a pointless idea that has no value for the active playerbase of the mmorpg game, while being potentially harmful to the game and the playerbase itself (like diluting population more, making lfg less active than it is, popularizing usage of those "legal bots" to get carried through content instead of learning and understanding mechanics of the game and so on).

Of course I "want to be right". But -probably opposed to what you think- I want to be right only by trying to draw correct and logical conclusions, which is why I'm engaging in any discussion in the first place. But I'm not interested in throwing mud around, so if you'll feel you're ready to respond to what I wrote instead of going with those weird personal remarks, you can quote my previous messages. Until then, that's all there is to say here, I guess.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Kurrilino.2706]

I don't even get the opposition.........

 

If you don't want to use merchs, just don't use them.

It's not that the lfg tool will disappear or something

[Cyndercat.7615]

9 minutes ago, Kurrilino.2706 said:

I don't even get the opposition.........

 

If you don't want to use merchs, just don't use them.

It's not that the lfg tool will disappear or something

How can you not get it? There is no way to make it work. There are too many movement based challenges that would have to be removed to progress with heros. Removing challenge is not good for the game. I have given numerous examples. 

 

If its just for open world and personal story sure. But then you have to consider if its worth the dev time. Thats up to anet. It comes with its own issues such as increased visual pollution and server capabilities.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

@Sobx.1758

You certainly spend a lot of time trying to prove why mercs is a bad idea.

...what is this even supposed to mean? I spend as much time ""trying to prove why mercs is a bad idea"" as you do ""trying to prove it's a good idea"". Stop trying to target me and instead target the contents of my posts.

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Saying that content is solo-able and the personal story is stating so, it's not the same  as a single player game, by any stretch of the imagination. Period.

Ok, so you understand the game naturally expects you to group up with other players, sometimes encourages you to do it and other times even forces you to do it. So... As I said, it is clear that's what the game does. That was and still is the point. If you understand that, then don't tell me it's somehow not clear.

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Besides, so you're saying that because someone not always feels like playing with other people, should go play a single player game instead of GW!?

To be more accurate, I said that there's also some types of content available for solo players, at which point they can keep playing that instead of trying to automate their group playthroughs by getting carried by some "legal bots". Want to play solo? Play content like OW, story or DRMs.

What I said is that if you had an expectation to 100% a game solo, then going with those expectations while picking an action mmorpgs is not reasonable. Seems logical to me, let me know if it somehow isn't.

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Why should you care?

How does it affect you in any way, shape, or form, if some people would like to form a party of their own favourite created characters?

I think I already explained it over multiple posts, but here's a tl;dr form:

1. Hard to think of a valid way of introducing it in the first place (for a reference, check the "a)/b)/c)" points in this post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/102460-mercenary-system-curiosity/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-1479255

2. Potentially detrimental consequence conntected to introducing this system into the game, even if we mostly forget about the 1st point (like diluting population more, making lfg less active than it is, popularizing usage of those "legal bots" to get carried through content instead of learning and understanding mechanics of the game and so on).

Why do I care? Because it affects the game itself as well as its population. It also takes away from the resources that could be used for more generally needed changes, like fixing/upgrading/updating/reworking traits and skills (which I also mentioned in this thread earlier). So it does affect me in multiple ways -and that's a short version.

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

What happens when eventually, after eod, people will move on to other games?

Would you rather ANet shut down, or find a solution to keep the fans?

 

That solution may just well be mercs, as they did in GW1.

Oh, so now it's an emergency option for a dying game that doesn't have enough players to complete the content made for groups? Ok, but that's a completely different type of argument. Also the game isn't anywhere near that point and hopefully won't be there for quite some time either, especially with an upcomming expansion. Even with that in mind, it would be anet's call whether or not it would be profitable and then most probably that would be used as a main decision making criterion.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

As far as making it work, a command system that can tell the AI what to do when it comes to interacting in the game's non-enemy elements would be the first step. Ensuring the AI could stand, jump, wait, pick up items, etc. 

The next step would be combat, some kind of system to pre-determine when the AI will act and how it will act, real time and planned would be necessary for it's success. Since dodging is really important in GW2 during gameplay, there needs to be some kind of function for a whole team dodge roll or function for the whole team to avoid orange squares at all costs. Some type of function to have a character solely kite and cast the entire time during a boss fight. A function for characters to use utilities when party member health drops below a certain threshold. There would need to be some type of function to set up combo fields. Something for them to be purely offensive, purely defensive, and purely pacifistic to focus on grabbing items. 

I could go on with this type of combat system. It doesn't seem too hard to come up with the idea, but implementing it is a different story. 

Okay, let's go with some simple questions using basic instanced content examples (i will use only dungeons and non-cm fractals for that, so we won't get into arguments about automating high-end content)

Example 1: Swamp fractal

How do you intend to make mercenaries do the initial wisp running puzzle? Or the wisp-running in the last phase of the fight?

Example 2: CoE, submarine path

How do you intend to do the jumping lasers part? The "using terminals while keeping away exploding golems" part?

Example 3: CoF p1 (Ferrah)

How do you intend to do the rolling boulders part? The 4 braziers and a door controller part?

Example 4: CoF p2 (Magg)

How do you intend to do the bombs part? The magmacyte (getting through lava) part? The final fight (acolyte mechanic)?

Example 5: CoF p3 (Rhiannon)

How do you intend to do the torches part? The bomb tunnel?

Example 6: aetherblade fractal

How do you intend to do the electrified tiles bridge part? Rotating force fields part? The final "golems in a spinning forcefield room" part?

All those things are a bit more complex than "just" doing decent dps and properly dodging/avoiding attacks. And that's only a few examples, i could easily go on and on and on (...need i say "Thaumanova"?).

Unless you can solve all those issues (in a way that would not trivialize those elements), mercenaries are simply not an option.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Unless ANet Devs themselves say to the players that mercs it's not an option, I'll keep asking.

You can. It won't make the idea any less unrealistic than it already is.

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You doubt of their capabilities of intergrating mercs into the game.

I don't. 

I don't have issue with dev capabilities. I am talking about core game mechanic/gameplay incompatibility with potential mercenary system. Devs sure could make mercenaries work - "all" they'd have to do to make it possible would be to basically rewrite and significantly change a lot of the core combat/class mechanics, a lot of dungeon/fractal mechanic... So, sure they could do it, but by the point they were finished, they'd likely end up with a completely new game (let's call it GW3). Is it impossible or beyond their capabilities? No, it's not. Is it extremely unlikely to happen, due to sheer amount of resources required? Yes, definitely.

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I've seen more complex systems than this one.

Just look at Final Fantasy 12 Gambit system.

FF XII gambit system worked in FF XII, but would not work in GW2. The combat system is completely different, and would not allow for it. Nor the instances in here are done with such a system in mind (see further on). Same with any other complex ai helper systems i have seen anywhere else. Not even the best ones would be a good fit for GW2.

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Games that have parties, but there are moments you still solo certain areas, such as jumping puzzles.

You already do this right here in GW2.

PoF is a perfect example.

You already have npcs following you.

They disappear when there are areas you have to solo.

Notice, that it works only with instances that were made with that in mind. Specifically, it works only in instances when it is assumed that only one person has to do mechanics. If there are however any mechanics that would require multiple players, the above approach no longer works. Just look at the examples i gave in my previous post, consider them, and think how they could be addressed without having to make changes to the mechanics themselves.

Frankly, in all the games out there, i have seen a system that might come close only once - the trust system in FF XIV. Notice, though, that this system still comes a bit short when applied to GW2 (GW2 action combat system and its mechanics are far more mobile and unpredictable than Ff XIV ones), and even in FF XIV it is possible only by prescripting every single trust member party (so, every combination of party members) for every single dungeon they are available for. And designing such dungeons with this system in mind. Which is why we see trust system available only for new dungeons, those that were made after that system's creation - and why (even though devs mentioned originally that they'd really want to have it work for the past content) not even one of the old dungens was ever opened fo that system.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other.

Regards.

[Kurrilino.2706]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Okay, let's go with some simple questions using basic instanced content examples (i will use only dungeons and non-cm fractals for that, so we won't get into arguments about automating high-end content)

Example 1: Swamp fractal

How do you intend to make mercenaries do the initial wisp running puzzle? Or the wisp-running in the last phase of the fight?

Example 2: CoE, submarine path

How do you intend to do the jumping lasers part? The "using terminals while keeping away exploding golems" part?

Example 3: CoF p1 (Ferrah)

How do you intend to do the rolling boulders part? The 4 braziers and a door controller part?

Example 4: CoF p2 (Magg)

How do you intend to do the bombs part? The magmacyte (getting through lava) part? The final fight (acolyte mechanic)?

Example 5: CoF p3 (Rhiannon)

How do you intend to do the torches part? The bomb tunnel?

Example 6: aetherblade fractal

How do you intend to do the electrified tiles bridge part? Rotating force fields part? The final "golems in a spinning forcefield room" part?

All those things are a bit more complex than "just" doing decent dps and properly dodging/avoiding attacks. And that's only a few examples, i could easily go on and on and on (...need i say "Thaumanova"?).

Unless you can solve all those issues (in a way that would not trivialize those elements), mercenaries are simply not an option.

 

Very easy, do it like the Dungeons choice between story and hard mode.

Make a group and a solo mode so only the main player has to do challenges. It's really not that hard. 

- Only 1 Orb in swamp,  only 1 console to turn of the laser fields etc..

Zombies and pets already find their way through jumping puzzles so can Henchman

Your examples are just virtual obstacles.

Same with cc bars. Adjust them to single player breaks 

There is really no problem at all

Edited October 1, 2021 by Kurrilino.2706

[Kurrilino.2706]

19 hours ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

How can you not get it? There is no way to make it work. There are too many movement based challenges that would have to be removed to progress with heros. Removing challenge is not good for the game. I have given numerous examples. 

 

If its just for open world and personal story sure. But then you have to consider if its worth the dev time. Thats up to anet. It comes with its own issues such as increased visual pollution and server capabilities.

 

How is this removing challenges? 

For the challenge it doesn't matter if  1 person is activating 1 console or 100 people activating 100 consoles.

Just remove 99 consoles and you have the same experience the player had before, activating a console.

This is not removing or adding challenges

[Rasimir.6239]

16 minutes ago, Kurrilino.2706 said:

How is this removing challenges? 

For the challenge it doesn't matter if  1 person is activating 1 console or 100 people activating 100 consoles.

Just remove 99 consoles and you have the same experience the player had before, activating a console.

This is not removing or adding challenges

There is a slight difference between five players simultaneously each beating one part of a challenge and one player just doing one part of the challenge without coordinating with four others.

 

Swampland fractal for example would be indefinitely easier if I could just carry one wisp to its place and didn't have to coordinate with the rest of the team who takes which wisp and how to make sure all four of them get back in time.

[Kurrilino.2706]

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

There is a slight difference between five players simultaneously each beating one part of a challenge and one player just doing one part of the challenge without coordinating with four others.

 

Swampland fractal for example would be indefinitely easier if I could just carry one wisp to its place and didn't have to coordinate with the rest of the team who takes which wisp and how to make sure all four of them get back in time.

This is exactly why i want a henchman mode, i don't want to deal with that coordination.

I do my challenge and that's it. Saves me from the back and forth who is equipping what portal and where.

Even then, the challenge is exactly like before, i carry the whisp to the trunk, regardless of many people carry or not.

It's also a better gaming experience to beat the challenge but not being crippled by other players not beating the challenge

Edited October 1, 2021 by Kurrilino.2706

[Astralporing.1957]

So, what you want is to make things easier for you by removing all difficulty that is a result of the content being designed for many players, essentially turning it into a separate solo mode in which you have to do only part of the work in order to get the same rewards. OP wanted to be able to run the already existing instanced content, but without it being easier than it is for a normal, full-player group.

You are essentially asking for completely different things.

[b k.1648]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:26 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

Oh, so now it's an emergency option for a dying game that doesn't have enough players to complete the content made for groups? Ok, but that's a completely different type of argument. Also the game isn't anywhere near that point and hopefully won't be there for quite some time either, especially with an upcomming expansion. Even with that in mind, it would be anet's call whether or not it would be profitable and then most probably that would be used as a main decision making criterion.

 

It actually is at that point in OCX timezone, because GW2 has already bled most of the few players it had to FF14 and some of the newer online RPGs coming out that actually have Australian servers. The more popular meta-events and group instances are still fine, but there are a lot of ghost towns.

[Klypto.1703]

All you have to do to hire mercenaries is hold a contest where the best video wins 1k or more gold of killing a specific player in wvw.  It will instantly create all the mercenaries that you could ever ask for to work towards winning that prize.

[Rasimir.6239]

13 hours ago, Kurrilino.2706 said:

This is exactly why i want a henchman mode, i don't want to deal with that coordination.

I do my challenge and that's it. Saves me from the back and forth who is equipping what portal and where.

Even then, the challenge is exactly like before, i carry the whisp to the trunk, regardless of many people carry or not.

It's also a better gaming experience to beat the challenge but not being crippled by other players not beating the challenge

Coordination between players IS the major part of the challenge those instances pose. Take that out and you have easy-mode.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ben K.6238 said:

 

It actually is at that point in OCX timezone, because GW2 has already bled most of the few players it had to FF14 and some of the newer online RPGs coming out that actually have Australian servers. The more popular meta-events and group instances are still fine, but there are a lot of ghost towns.

That is really unfortunate 😞 . It is however totally different on EU, the game is very much alive and kicking here, with multiple instances of the more recent maps, as well as those with world bosses or meta events happening. We run into the "problem" of party members ending up on different map instances regularly, even for such mundane things as guild missions.

[Tiviana.2650]

On 9/28/2021 at 6:10 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

All you need to understand is that I want to form my own party of characters that I created, together in a team. The way I want.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Why should I not have Pyre Fierceshot warband while playing my own private story?

It's not because of lack of skills.

It's the joy of creating something yourself.

 

If I want to recreate the original hero party, including Jora, Gwen, Pyre Fierceshot, etc as my team; which part is so confusing?

If you are talking personal story , then i dont see an issue having a AI group in there. Its when people want to clear raids fractals strikes ect with AI teams that it becomes absurd. but the personal story is just that, your personal space and content, so AI teams in there im fine with.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Tiviana.2650

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

If you are talking personal story , then i dont see an issue having a AI group in there. Its when people want to clear raids fractals strikes ect with AI teams that it becomes absurd. but the personal story is just that, your personal space and content, so AI teams in there im fine with.

The personal story is already solo content though.

[Tiviana.2650]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The personal story is already solo content though.

No I get that, but many people struggle killing the story bosses so instead of having to ask other people to help they rather just have an AI team I guess.

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

No I get that, but many people struggle killing the story bosses so instead of having to ask other people to help they rather just have an AI team I guess.

If someone struggles to kill the story bosses, then majority of the time it means they didn't learn the basic mechanics of the game/encounter, which means asking other players for help should be even more desirable (because others can help and/or explain the game's/encounter's mechanics) than introducing some legal party of bots which would let them skip learning said basics of the game, only perpetuating their inability to complete solo content they supposedly want to keep soloing.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

24 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

No I get that, but many people struggle killing the story bosses so instead of having to ask other people to help they rather just have an AI team I guess.

I'm pretty sure party instance scales to the number of players, so it would only make it harder on the player. Unless the mercenaries could do that instance significantly better than the player itself, which would make them into a team of bots AFKing the player to victory. Which would be too much even for a story instance.

Notice, btw, that most of those can be easily done because many bosses do not regen HP, so no matter how badly you play you will kill them eventually. Making it easier than even that... let's say that even if i'm personally a strong believer in easy modes and such, i still think that there is a certain difficulty floor going below which should not be seriously considered.

[Linken.6345]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm pretty sure party instance scales to the number of players, so it would only make it harder on the player. Unless the mercenaries could do that instance significantly better than the player itself, which would make them into a team of bots AFKing the player to victory. Which would be too much even for a story instance.

Notice, btw, that most of those can be easily done because many bosses do not regen HP, so no matter how badly you play you will kill them eventually. Making it easier than even that... let's say that even if i'm personally a strong believer in easy modes and such, i still think that there is a certain difficulty floor going below which should not be seriously considered.

personal story dont scale