Mercenary System Curiosity

[Salvatore.3749]

2 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I don't care if players play alone or not.  I have played most of this game solo as it stands.  I have engaged in group content when I could but, for example, I haven't the time to get into Raiding and earn my Legendary armor, so I don't engage in it, and I don't sweat it.

I actually do not care for pugging and would rather be able to do group content with a guild or reliable group of friends, but I don't have a group of reliable friends or guildies to do this with.  This limits my ability to engage in some group content, so I don't engage in it, and I don't sweat it.

I have never been in a T4 fractal, never been in a Raid, and only a handful of Strikes.  I have run DRM solo or 2 person, so no CMs.  Do I want to do this content?  Yes.  But due to personal limitations listed above, and what the game can offer, I simply decided that it was content I couldn't engage in at this time, and I am okay with this.

On the flip side, when I have engaged in group content I use the tools provided in the game to the fullest.  That means using meta builds (even though I hate the play for a lot of these builds), suffering LFG and Pugs and the like.

I am probably the target player for your Heroes P2W option.

YOU ARE THE TARGET PLAYER. Like seriously, you have been gatekeeped, don't have the time, don't like playing the specific meta builds, have been prevented from getting to T4 fractals. And it seems like you have a lot of desire to play the content, but don't have the ability to do it because you don't want to conform to what other players want you to do. 

[mungozen.2379]

1 minute ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

YOU ARE THE TARGET PLAYER. Like seriously, you have been gatekeeped, don't have the time, don't like playing the specific meta builds, have been prevented from getting to T4 fractals. And it seems like you have a lot of desire to play the content, but don't have the ability to do it because you don't want to conform to what other players want you to do. 

No, it has little to do with anyone else.

It has to do with how I fit into the game.

No one is gatekeeping me, I decide how I spend my personal time.  If I really wanted to dedicate a few weeks to Raid training and then join a static for 1 night a week to farm my legendary armor, I will find the time to make it happen.  That would mean maybe moving some meals around, and maybe not hanging out with RL friends, oh and making sure my work schedule doesn't interfere.....

However, I do not value legendary armor above those other activities.  and I don't think that the game should bend to my wants because I won't change my personal life to fit with what is needed in game to attain such goals.

 

[Salvatore.3749]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

1. Come on, it's not exactly "reading between the lines" when I already spelled it out, right? 😛
2. "build their parties to perform certain actions only or tackle certain content" -a.k.a ~pick one bot to tank, 1 bot to dps, 2 bots to spam heal = self-play content. And this didn't exactly answer to my concerns?
3. But in the post I've quoted you've immediately went from "those players would prefer to play alone" to justifying why it's ok for the casual players ("How does it affect other players when those players would prefer to play alone with bots? See, a casual player will likely never convert to hardcore fractal player or raider since they like to play casually. Such a system would compensate for them."). So if it wasn't clear enough before -that's one of the things that pretty clearly suggested to me who this is directed at and what type of "gameplay" it's supposed to be. Already wrote about it in the post you've just responded to: "Because if someone wanted to play rts or jrpg, maybe they shouldn't conciously pick an action mmorpg and then be wondering why it doesn't play like the previous 2 genres." This is not an rts or jrpg. This is an action mmorpg. If I want to play FIFA22, I don't pretend gw2 should give me an option to play it more like that game. I pick the genre accordingly to what and how I want to play.
4. I disagree with usage of bots in mmorpgs and making them "legally purchased from the developer" somehow doesn't make the idea any better. Probably even the opposite.
5. Honestly, I don't see how that changes ANYTHING about what I said? Of course it would still be a choice. Playing alone or in a group is still a choice right now. I don't get what you're responding to with this sentence. Auto-play is auto-play. Telling me that "someone can choose to use or not use auto-play" doesn't address that it's still auto-play (or so complex that it's useless for casual players, which was supposed to be kind of the selling point according to your previous posts). 
6. That has been proven to be a wrong claim over and over again. Those threads aren't there "because there are no squads to play in". This has been addressed enough time to stop pretending that's a thing -there are squads of varying levels of players, so pretty sure anyone actually wanting to learn the content has every possibility to do so.
7. No, it came down to what this game is, down to the core of its very genre. The content that's supposed to be playable solo IS possible to be played solo, while the content that's supposed  to be a group effort of multiple players is also consistently played that way. Introducing some sort of "legal bots" for the sake of pretending that "it would let people make a choice" is just a cop-out forhaving a party of bots legally carry single players through content. If someone wants to keep playing solo then they're free to keep playing content that's made to be played solo, right?

1. True. You did spell it out. 

2. Pretty much. This is the traditional MMO party mechanic.  Guild Wars 2 has already moved to it? Look at tempest, a healing/support ele. Look at soulbeast, DPS. Warrior, tank. Druid, healer. The positions are already there for people to play, but not everyone wants to play those positions in a traditional party mechanic, so giving them heroes/mercs would overcome this problem.

3. So you want people to play the game the way you want them to play the game. Not have a new mechanic to enjoy content that they struggle to play solo or find parties for because they are forced to play it a certain way. That's why I advocate for this system, so people can enjoy it the way they want to enjoy it. 

4. I understand that point, should it be free? Yeah, that would be cool, but someone has to pay for the developers to somehow create it.

5. It's not auto-play and you keep missing the point. It's only for instanced content and the heroes would need to follow you. That's not them just roaming like the characters can do in a Gacha game on iOS/Android. It's a little more complicated than that and will provide for more real time commands. Again, this isn't more for casual players, it's for those people who want to go against the meta and play the game on their own. Whether they are loaners, casual players, or time constricted. This is not like a leave the game on and the heroes complete the level for you type of system. This would be far more interactive than that. 

6.  But, that's not actually practical and some people learn at different paces in different ways. Some people would prefer to play alone, learn alone, and even farm instanced content alone. Why not cater to them? Sometimes people want to figure things out for themselves and that should be allowed. Your comment suggests you don't want people to have the individual freedom to play the game their own way. 

7. No. Actually, it's the inverse with a little more flavor that makes sense. If people want to play solo, and want to play with bots at their command to complete content that is designated as group play only, while refusing to use the community oriented meta builds, than you should let them. You are again arguing to restrict people's freedom and this time you want their freedom to play the game differently restricted because it's not how you like to play the game.

Again, in the end, I advocate for this system because it seems like you are someone who wants people to use the best metas, achieve the metas, play the game according to your specifications, and rarely deviate from the meta unless a buff or nerf forces the meta to change. That type of meta restriction sucks in MMOs and it eliminates people's freedom and the ability to dedicate their time to the game. 

 

[DarcShriek.5829]

People that insist on playing alone may be better served by single player games.  Henchman had a chilling affect on GW1.  When Henchman joined GW1 people played together less often and it became harder to make teams of other players.  Why bother joining a group when your henchman can do it all?  That's not something I want to see happen to GW2.

[Salvatore.3749]

8 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

No, it has little to do with anyone else.

It has to do with how I fit into the game.

No one is gatekeeping me, I decide how I spend my personal time.  If I really wanted to dedicate a few weeks to Raid training and then join a static for 1 night a week to farm my legendary armor, I will find the time to make it happen.  That would mean maybe moving some meals around, and maybe not hanging out with RL friends, oh and making sure my work schedule doesn't interfere.....

However, I do not value legendary armor above those other activities.  and I don't think that the game should bend to my wants because I won't change my personal life to fit with what is needed in game to attain such goals.

 

But see, why should this game consume your time from maintaining your wellness. Skipping meals and not hanging out with RL friends to do a raid doesn't sound time friendly at all. For people who have to go to work, school, and care for families, this game can get dropped very easily since it is a time sink. That's the last thing players want. 

[Cyndercat.7615]

48 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

YOU ARE THE TARGET PLAYER. Like seriously, you have been gatekeeped, don't have the time, don't like playing the specific meta builds, have been prevented from getting to T4 fractals. And it seems like you have a lot of desire to play the content, but don't have the ability to do it because you don't want to conform to what other players want you to do. 

First you say it heros shoudnt be for high skill instanced content. Then you argue they should be available in t4 fractals and possibly raids. Which one is it?

 

Even if they did make heros available for t4 fractals. Which is a terrible idea. You, and non of the others who argue my problems are niche have given any viable solutions. Not one. It does not work. 

Please explain to me how your hero's are going to complete swamplands wisp run without being brokenly OP, trivializing it, and without the ability to jump. Then please explain to me how your heros are going to complete the sabetha raid, specifically the cannon mechanic. Then please do explain to me how the heros will complete dhuums greens. If you cant give actual detailed solutions to these problems then the idea of heros in endgame content goes nowhere. 

 

 

 

[mungozen.2379]

17 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

But see, why should this game consume your time from maintaining your wellness. Skipping meals and not hanging out with RL friends to do a raid doesn't sound time friendly at all. For people who have to go to work, school, and care for families, this game can get dropped very easily since it is a time sink. That's the last thing players want. 

It shouldn't, it is up to the player to decide how to best use their time.  Not all activities are available to all people all the time.

[Sobx.1758]

57 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

2. Pretty much. This is the traditional MMO party mechanic.  Guild Wars 2 has already moved to it? Look at tempest, a healing/support ele. Look at soulbeast, DPS. Warrior, tank. Druid, healer. The positions are already there for people to play, but not everyone wants to play those positions in a traditional party mechanic, so giving them heroes/mercs would overcome this problem.

This is the traditional mmo party mechanic, but my comment wasn't about some ideal party composition played by the players, it was about the party of bots completing the content for you by using a setup like that. Did you miss that point or, rather, avoided it? It was a direct response about that system which was further talking about "it will be either useless or self-play".

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3. So you want people to play the game the way you want them to play the game. Not have a new mechanic to enjoy content that they struggle to play solo or find parties for because they are forced to play it a certain way. That's why I advocate for this system, so people can enjoy it the way they want to enjoy it. 

What? No. If anything, you want to change the game so you don't have to play it the way it is made, but instead so that a party of bots can complete it for you. I'm really not sure how you went from what I wrote there to this type of response?

And again, nobody is "forced to play the certain way". I never -not ONCE- saw anyone try to check or enforce any type of meta build in a dungeon party. Duh, I've never had anyone check the builds in raiding squads I join. I find it hard to believe what you write here is completely honest. I think I've played enough to make a claim that on average, nobody is forcing you to play anything. (and the only reason I say "on average" is because there is a tiiiiiiiiiiny change I've been extremely lucky across the years. It's doubtful, but in theory possible. So lets keep that "on average" for the sake of giving you/myself the benefit of the doubt)

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4. I understand that point, should it be free? Yeah, that would be cool, but someone has to pay for the developers to somehow create it.

Free or not is not even the key point here, the bots don't do much positive for the game (if anything, but inb4 someone brings up the materials pricing and whatnot 😜 ) and the devs potentially introducing some sort of legal bots into their own mmorpg is admiting it became a single player game. Hopefully gw2 isn't anywhere close to that, as it will only make people jump the ship.

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5. It's not auto-play and you keep missing the point. It's only for instanced content and the heroes would need to follow you. That's not them just roaming like the characters can do in a Gacha game on iOS/Android. It's a little more complicated than that and will provide for more real time commands. Again, this isn't more for casual players, it's for those people who want to go against the meta and play the game on their own. Whether they are loaners, casual players, or time constricted. This is not like a leave the game on and the heroes complete the level for you type of system. This would be far more interactive than that. 

Players already aren't required to play meta to complete the content. Not sure why you're pretending otherwise.

"Autoplay just in instanced content" is still "autoplay". How would it be "far more interactive than that"? And you keep saying you never said it's about casual players, but if you re-read your posts in this thread, you keep mentioning them all the time. It's not a coincidence you kept writing that, it just seems you've decided to go back on that argument now because of what has been later pointed out (e.g it would only add to complexity, which wouldn't really work for casual players).

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6.  But, that's not actually practical and some people learn at different paces in different ways. Some people would prefer to play alone, learn alone, and even farm instanced content alone. Why not cater to them? Sometimes people want to figure things out for themselves and that should be allowed. Your comment suggests you don't want people to have the individual freedom to play the game their own way. 

People are free to learn at different paces and in different ways. How exactly does this relate to what I said?

They can farm instanced content alone if that content is meant to be farmed alone. There are some examples of that. Getting carried by a party of bots/mercenaries isn't "a preference to farm alone", it's a preference to have the content played/completed for you. It's for the very similar reasons why some people are only interested in having necro minions significantly buffed, while they were repeatedly nerfed instead. I think it may be a solid hint what anet currently thinks about ai-driven gameplay and -imo- it's good to see that.

How exactly does my comment suggest I don't want people to have the individual freedom to play the game? They DO have that freedom and I wrote about it in the post you're responding to. There ARE squads both directed at more hardcore, as well as the more casual playerbase. And it's because these players obviously exists, all of them have the same access to lfg system and can join squads with the goals that match their own.

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7. No. Actually, it's the inverse with a little more flavor that makes sense. If people want to play solo, and want to play with bots at their command to complete content that is designated as group play only, while refusing to use the community oriented meta builds, than you should let them. You are again arguing to restrict people's freedom and this time you want their freedom to play the game differently restricted because it's not how you like to play the game.

If people want to play solo, they can already do that in content that's designed for them to play through it solo.

If you want party of bots to carry you through the instanced content, you don't want to play solo -you want a party of bots to carry you through the instanced content and lets not pretend otherwise.

If you want to 100% the game solo, then maybe you shouldn't have picked an action mmorpg for that. There's nothing "inverse" about it, there's nothing "I want or not want people to do" -it's what this game and its genre is, at its very core. Notice that in this thread, it's not me that want to change the game according to my preferences -it's you who's trying to do it in a form of introducing party of bots that would be able to carry players through the group content. Group up with any players you want and play as a group. Nobody will check if you're meta or not and if you're not going to pull your weight in the first place then -according to your claim about this hypothetical system being skill based- you shouldn't be able to pull your weight when playing with bots that aren't carrying you on autoplay through the content. Do you think anything about this is incorrect?

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Again, in the end, I advocate for this system because it seems like you are someone who wants people to use the best metas, achieve the metas, play the game according to your specifications, and rarely deviate from the meta unless a buff or nerf forces the meta to change. That type of meta restriction sucks in MMOs and it eliminates people's freedom and the ability to dedicate their time to the game.

 Ok, how did you even conclude that I'm someone who wants people to use the best metas? This is factually wrong -not only this is not how/what I usually play, but I never try to enforce any build on anyone. That said, I'm curious what exactly you're basing this claim on. Claim  about me that's -again- just objectively wrong.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[b k.1648]

1 hour ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

People that insist on playing alone may be better served by single player games.  Henchman had a chilling affect on GW1.  When Henchman joined GW1 people played together less often and it became harder to make teams of other players.  Why bother joining a group when your henchman can do it all?  That's not something I want to see happen to GW2.

Heroes/henchmen couldn't do all content there, particularly the endgame areas. Heroes might have had access to the same skill set as players, but their AI was pretty basic and there's no way they could compete with decent players.

The fact that it was still preferable to use heroes for most content, rather than join other players, says more about the quality of players than the heroes.

In some cases, it's because other players could just be bad. With heroes, you knew what you were getting. It wasn't great, but at least a hero wouldn't solo charge groups with Mending as its heal unless you specifically told it to. You'd never be as efficient as a good player group, but sometimes just not getting a terrible one was good enough.

In other cases, other players were more difficult to manage. Doing highly repetitive stuff like faction farming or speed vanquishing the same zone over and over is less efficient with other players, because you have to form the party and ready up; then they'll all need to take breaks at different times, so you waste quite a lot of time managing the party for a trivially simple activity.

In the remaining cases, there just weren't enough players to attempt it. This is probably why heroes were introduced - when you've got a PvE game with that many zones and a population that's going to fall over time, there will be dead content that you simply cannot form a party for. Amatz Basin for example - you're never going to get a great score there without real players, but in my timezone there were no real players to be found for most of the years I played GW1.

 

I think the third reason is the most valid argument for AI allies in GW2. Filling out dungeon groups with AI if your party isn't full would at least make them possible for people who can't find a full group, whether because the dungeon path they're trying to do is unpopular, or there's just no-one on at that time of day.
But AI shouldn't be competing with real players for space - they should just be filler for people who otherwise wouldn't play the content at all.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Ben K.6238

[Kurrilino.2706]

3 hours ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

People that insist on playing alone may be better served by single player games.  Henchman had a chilling affect on GW1.  When Henchman joined GW1 people played together less often and it became harder to make teams of other players.  Why bother joining a group when your henchman can do it all?  That's not something I want to see happen to GW2.

 

Those were the best times of GW1.

I very much want to see that in GW2

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Kurrilino.2706 said:

 

Those were the best times of GW1.

I very much want to see that in GW2

Then why not play a game like for example divinity original sin 1/2 or baldurs gate 3 instead of an mmo?

[Xanadrine.4352]

11 hours ago, Kurrilino.2706 said:

 

You must have missed the fact that Necros and Rangers already have henchmen with them.

They can even issue commands to them.

This already works great and i haven't seen open world coming to an end yet.

 

Just refine this system a little and we have dang fine henchmen

Umm pets minions turrets elemental pets ect are nothing more than an extension of the professions toolkit. part of their spells and abilities. You are asking to play a multi player game as a solo player game with only AI team mates. Is this what society is devolving into, turning people into hermits. Its bad enough that the plague called social media has had the opposite effect of being social, instead its turning an entire world into people that have lost the ability to actually engage in proper social contact. They lost the ability to read social cues and body language, the ability to judge a situation, and all situational awareness. The human race is collectively becoming antisocial.

I say if you want that kind of game then ask anet to make a mobile version for the phone thats a single player game. Im sure the new human race will love it. For us oldtimers that actually like playing with others and interacting leave GW2 as is.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

This could go on forever.

Neither side seems to want to agree with eachother.

 

Ok. Let's start from the beginning. 

From the very moment you create your character, it already tells you:

"This is my story" and when you gain control of your character in GW2, it encourages you to play alone, by constantly telling you that you're the hero.

So far, which part is saying that you should play with other players?

Even when you face the first monster, other players seem to avoid you at all costs.

Fact!

Trust me. I've created 4 new characters recently. So I know.

There's no communication between players whatsoever.

Fact!

Zero, nothing, zilch.

 

Now, when you do the entirety of Personal Story all alone, with a bunch of useless npcs that hardly heal you, and don't do much of anything besides talking and getting credit for your actions... after all that, you think.

Hang on, I did this on my own.

Why should I go play with other players now the rest of the content!?

 

Of course an mmo is aimed to be played with other players, but the reality is that a game like GW, with a lot of pve and rpg content cannot be expected to force or even suggest people to play with other players.

That works in a modern warfare scenario, NOT on GW.

 

People play together on maps such as DF and DS because they have to.

Go have a look at Bitterfrost Frontier; there's a ton of people soloing the fire pits.

They only come across eachother when the champions emerge because they have to.

 

I know you're trying hard to dosprove it, for some reason, but the only time I see communication between players, is when they really have to.

 

One other thing.

GW2 is not GW1.

You said it yourselves.

So why would that change GW2 for the worse if people had mercs on their own private instances, when they are already soloing everything?

Why would that make them a worse player and not capable of doing fractals, later, etc?

You speak as so people are thick and have a low IQ.

Is that what you're saying?

Aren't people capable of thinking for themselves or gear up for harder content, because...?

Reasons!?

Are you saying people are not bright enough, that if they really truly desire to do harder content; there's absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so!

 

It's only mere excuses and pretexts to go against an idea that could possibly bring ANet a load of fresh cash... just by adding a function that can make one or two of your already existing characters into a side-kick.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

This could go on forever.

Neither side seems to want to agree with eachother.

 

Ok. Let's start from the beginning. 

From the very moment you create your character, it already tells you:

"This is my story" and when you gain control of your character in GW2, it encourages you to play alone, by constantly telling you that you're the hero.

So far, which part is saying that you should play with other players?

Even when you face the first monster, other players seem to avoid you at all costs.

Fact!

Trust me. I've created 4 new characters recently. So I know.

There's no communication between players whatsoever.

Fact!

Zero, nothing, zilch.

 

Now, when you do the entirety of Personal Story all alone, with a bunch of useless npcs that hardly heal you, and don't do much of anything besides talking and getting credit for your actions... after all that, you think.

Hang on, I did this on my own.

Why should I go play with other players now the rest of the content!?

 

Of course an mmo is aimed to be played with other players, but the reality is that a game like GW, with a lot of pve and rpg content cannot be expected to force or even suggest people to play with other players.

That works in a modern warfare scenario, NOT on GW.

 

People play together on maps such as DF and DS because they have to.

Go have a look at Bitterfrost Frontier; there's a ton of people soloing the fire pits.

They only come across eachother when the champions emerge because they have to.

 

I know you're trying hard to dosprove it, for some reason, but the only time I see communication between players, is when they really have to.

 

One other thing.

GW2 is not GW1.

You said it yourselves.

So why would that change GW2 for the worse if people had mercs on their own private instances, when they are already soloing everything?

Why would that make them a worse player and not capable of doing fractals, later, etc?

You speak as so people are thick and have a low IQ.

Is that what you're saying?

Aren't people capable of thinking for themselves or gear up for harder content, because...?

Reasons!?

Are you saying people are not bright enough, that if they really truly desire to do harder content; there's absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so!

 

It's only mere excuses and pretexts to go against an idea that could possibly bring ANet a load of fresh cash... just by adding a function that can make one or two of your already existing characters into a side-kick.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

 

Notice how you claim the game never tells you to play with other players, but right after that you repeatedly say players group up becuse they have to in certain content. This is the game telling you to group up with other players. Seems rather clear and simple. Not only that, but even initially you write "Of course an mmo is aimed to be played with other players". The game is what it is, YOU KNOW what it is and you knew it when you've picked up an mmorpg game. No need to pretend that it's not meant to be played with other players because there's no flashing message in the middle of your screen telling you to group up.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Salvatore.3749]

15 hours ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

1. First you say it heros shoudnt be for high skill instanced content. Then you argue they should be available in t4 fractals and possibly raids. Which one is it?
2. Even if they did make heros available for t4 fractals. Which is a terrible idea. You, and non of the others who argue my problems are niche have given any viable solutions. Not one. It does not work. 
3. Please explain to me how your hero's are going to complete swamplands wisp run without being brokenly OP, trivializing it, and without the ability to jump. Then please explain to me how your heros are going to complete the sabetha raid, specifically the cannon mechanic. Then please do explain to me how the heros will complete dhuums greens. If you cant give actual detailed solutions to these problems then the idea of heros in endgame content goes nowhere. 

 

1.  I said it shouldn't be, but it could be used. It would be for the playes to decide. 

2. Does it really need to work to the point that it replaces players? Didn't I say it's there for people who want to use it and whether or not it works or if the players could make it work doesn't matter? If they are just there to use as a tool, and people want to use it then fine. 

3. See my other posts about why it doesn't matter if it works well or not. It's up to the players who use them. I also addressed the jump mechanic and work-around available for that in detail. Power creep is something we talked about too. Specifically the levelising system. I already talked about this, I'm not repeating myself. 

[Randulf.7614]

It wouldn’t work in GW2 outside of instances and there isn’t really a need for them in story mode. They can’t work in open world because the game is not set up like GW1 and it would be a constant fight between taking a player spot and hiding the mercs.

 

It would be fun to take my alts as henchman def, but GW2 is not the right fit for the system

[Salvatore.3749]

32 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Notice how you claim the game never tells you to play with other players, but right after that you repeatedly say players group up becuse they have to in certain content. This is the game telling you to group up with other players. Seems rather clear and simple. Not only that, but even initially you write "Of course an mmo is aimed to be played with other players". The game is what it is, YOU KNOW what it is and you knew it when you've picked up an mmorpg game. No need to pretend that it's not meant to be played with other players because there's no flashing message in the middle of your screen telling you to group up.

You missed the point.

Sometimes players are forced to play together in PvE and they have to conform to the meta or what the community's majority wants. They can't play the game their way even though the majority of the game can be soloed. It's not until you get to some instanced content that it cannot be soloed such as dungeons. It's still unclear why dungeons required players to group together, and to this day, they could still be adjusted to meet solo gameplay, but ANET refuses. This idea would bring life to the dungeons, and other instanced content while help ANET economically. 

But, alas, you and a few others want people to to be forced to play together when sometimes people just can't. This is exactly why some players who purchased this game, feel left out, and are gatekeeped from achieving certain content. 

I'm not trying to change your mind. As of today, you'll likely never open your mind up to a new idea like this. I am not sure what your personal life is like, but it seems like you are someone who can donate a majority of their time to GW2 whereas others can't.

It is what it is. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Salvatore.3749

[Salvatore.3749]

4 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It wouldn’t work in GW2 outside of instances and there isn’t really a need for them in story mode. They can’t work in open world because the game is not set up like GW1 and it would be a constant fight between taking a player spot and hiding the mercs.

 

It would be fun to take my alts as henchman def, but GW2 is not the right fit for the system

To catch you up to speed. This whole thread started with using heroes for instanced content only. Not open world. I even said technical reasons as to why it wouldn't work in open world. 

[Cyninja.2954]

15 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

To catch you up to speed. This whole thread started with using heroes for instanced content only. Not open world. I even said technical reasons as to why it wouldn't work in open world. 

So, who is to stop someone from then coming in and asking for heroes in open world? He would have just as good a ground to ask or desire such a change as you do now.

I get the alluring nature of NPC allies who can circumvent certain content or the necessity to actually group with other players or socialize. Other games have this to a limited degree too: best example is SWToR.

The main issue, besides all the technical limitations and problems involved, remains that this is introducing a mechanic or design aspect absolutely contrary to any socializing or interaction aspects this game has, on top of the already low amount of required grouping to begin with.

Since GW1 is constantly being brought up, and the supposed lack of heroes being able to do "difficult" content there, which is absurd given just about everything can be soloed with heroes in GW1 by now: I loved heroes in GW1. In fact I played it completely as a single player game, never joined a guild (I was playing other MMORPGs back then for social interaction, WH Online, WoW, EO, etc.) in fact never did anything related to what one might consider foundations of what MMORPGs should have (to not be glorified single player games).

All the while heroes killed the remainder of the game for any players who did play it for the social aspects.

Why would any sane person want something similar like that to happen to a functioning, beloved and still successful MMORPGs is beyond me.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Salvatore.3749]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

1. So, who is to stop someone from then coming in and asking for heroes in open world? He would have just as good a ground to ask or desire such a change as you do now.
2. I get the alluring nature of NPC allies who can circumvent certain content or the necessity to actually group with other players or socialize. Other games have this to a limited degree too: best example is SWToR.
3. The main issue, besides all the technical limitations and problems involved, remains that this is introducing a mechanic or design aspect absolutely contrary to any socializing or interaction aspects this game has, on top of the already low amount of required grouping to begin with.
4. Since GW1 is constantly being brought up, and the supposed lack of heroes being able to do "difficult" content there, which is absurd given just about everything can be soloed with heroes in GW1 by now: I loved heroes in GW1. In fact I played it completely as a single player game, never joined a guild (I was playing other MMORPGs back then for social interaction, WH Online, WoW, EO, etc.) in fact never did anything related to what one might consider foundations of what MMORPGs should have (to not be glorified single player games).
5. All the while heroes killed the remainder of the game for any players who did play it for the social aspects.
6. Why would any sane person want something similar like that to happen to a functioning, beloved and still successful MMORPGs is beyond me.

1. Good point to be honest. No one has brought that up. I don't think it would be possible from a business/development standpoint because there are many players in open world. I even said I am against having it for open world.
2. Only for instanced content with the characters we created. So LW, Story, and Dungeons were the content I was referring to. I never said it would be viable for high level content and if it is or isn't viable for high level content and players still want to do it, then so what. It was really for the untouched instanced content. It's not meant to replace players since players have a brain that AI just doesn't have. 
3. Some group play is forced right now and sometimes it's hard to find a group to do certain things, Also, see the post about loaners in MMOs. Some players like to be around other players, but not interact with them since it takes too much time. I talked about a speech considering these types of players in MMOs, it was like 15% of players in MMOs like to be loaners (in 2008). 15% of 4+ million players is a lot.  Some people just can't be forced to spend the time. 
4. You must have played GW1 after Nightfall was released. I played from launch. Henchies were useless. Finding players was easy. Heroes were a new mechanic that provided people with the opportunity to solo certain content. I think more people liked it because they could minimize the error in GW 1.
5. How? Guilds are still running in GW1 and GW1 is still alive and kicking. People are still chatting in LA and on the Zaishen Isles. The game actually has a huge player base to this day. 
6. It's a new idea only limited to instanced content and the AI wouldn't be able to replace players who have knowledge and expertise. Some people want the time and freedom to play the game with a new mechanic. 

[Cyninja.2954]

15 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

1. Good point to be honest. No one has brought that up. I don't think it would be possible from a business/development standpoint because there are many players in open world. I even said I am against having it for open world.
2. Only for instanced content with the characters we created. So LW, Story, and Dungeons were the content I was referring to. I never said it would be viable for high level content and if it is or isn't viable for high level content and players still want to do it, then so what. It was really for the untouched instanced content. It's not meant to replace players since players have a brain that AI just doesn't have. 

The content is not untouched. Dungeons groups fill within seconds. Players simply do not bother with creating them themselves. Giving them even less reason to do so would make the problem worse, from a MMORPG stand point.

Quote

1. Some group play is forced right now and sometimes it's hard to find a group to do certain things, Also, see the post about loaners in MMOs. Some players like to be around other players, but not interact with them since it takes too much time. I talked about a speech considering these types of players in MMOs, it was like 15% of players in MMOs like to be loaners (in 2008). 15% of 4+ million players is a lot.  Some people just can't be forced to spend the time. 

I know about loners in MMORPGs. Given 90% of this games content is already targeted at them, do the remaining 10% really need to get adapted as well?

Some group play is forced, mostly the very very very high end stuff (and even here much "can" get soloed with enough experience, skill and time). Even among the forced group content, much requires not any more interaction than joining another group and never speaking a single word beyond "hi" and "thanks you, bye".

Quote

1. You must have played GW1 after Nightfall was released. I played from launch. Henchies were useless. Finding players was easy. Heroes were a new mechanic that provided people with the opportunity to solo certain content. I think more people liked it because they could minimize the error in GW 1.

I played it during release, after Nightfall and EotN. GW1 is in fact a perfect example to look at how NPCs affect player interaction and how more useful NPCs crowd out grouping, interactions and fundamentals of actual cooperation.

Quote

1. How? Guilds are still running in GW1 and GW1 is still alive and kicking. People are still chatting in LA and on the Zaishen Isles. The game actually has a huge player base to this day. 

Really, and how much development has the game seen in the last years? GW1 is just as successful as Baldur's Gate, Diablo 2 or any other game which has 0 resources devoted to it but retains some players. The vast majority of them playing it as a single player game.

From a development standpoint the game is dead and has been for years.

So again, why is this something GW2 should go for right now?

Edited September 30, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

You missed the point.

Sometimes players are forced to play together in PvE and they have to conform to the meta or what the community's majority wants. They can't play the game their way even though the majority of the game can be soloed. It's not until you get to some instanced content that it cannot be soloed such as dungeons. It's still unclear why dungeons required players to group together, and to this day, they could still be adjusted to meet solo gameplay, but ANET refuses. This idea would bring life to the dungeons, and other instanced content while help ANET economically. 

But, alas, you and a few others want people to to be forced to play together when sometimes people just can't. This is exactly why some players who purchased this game, feel left out, and are gatekeeped from achieving certain content. 

I'm not trying to change your mind. As of today, you'll likely never open your mind up to a new idea like this. I am not sure what your personal life is like, but it seems like you are someone who can donate a majority of their time to GW2 whereas others can't.

 

No, I didn't miss the point. On the other hand you seem to miss the fact that the poster I was responding to tries to pretend this is a single player game and there are not signs of it being multiplayer. Then any time the game directs the player into playing it as a multiplayer game -that it obviously is- the claim is that it can't do that, because it didn't do that... earlier? That's some backwards pseudo-argumantation where he claims the game doesn't do something, but when it does, it doesn't count because he/you don't want it to count.

"Gatekept" from what content? How? Why?

And I already answered to that "meta" claim in the previous response to you.

Quote

It is what it is.

Yes. And what it is, is mmorpg.

btw. stop trying to frame me into something I'm not, your opinions about me consistently make as much sense as they did when you tried to claim I'm somehow enforcing "meta" on other players. These are just false claims that you're using in place of actual argumentation.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Cyndercat.7615]

1 hour ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

1.  I said it shouldn't be, but it could be used. It would be for the playes to decide. 

2. Does it really need to work to the point that it replaces players? Didn't I say it's there for people who want to use it and whether or not it works or if the players could make it work doesn't matter? If they are just there to use as a tool, and people want to use it then fine. 

3. See my other posts about why it doesn't matter if it works well or not. It's up to the players who use them. I also addressed the jump mechanic and work-around available for that in detail. Power creep is something we talked about too. Specifically the levelising system. I already talked about this, I'm not repeating myself. 

You did not address it at all. NPCS teleporting you would not make the swampland fractal doable. Nor would it make dhuum greens doable. This content would be literally impossible with heros unless they are totally reworked or the mechanics just deleted. Tell me specifically how swampland and dhuum greens will work with heros and then we can discuss whether its a good idea to implement them at all. These are just 2 of the numerous examples of movement based challenges that are present in almost all of gw2s endgame content btw. Its not just limited to these 2 instances. 

[Salvatore.3749]

7 minutes ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

This content would be literally impossible [. . .] Tell me specifically how swampland and dhuum greens will work with heros and then we can discuss whether its a good idea to implement them at all. These are just 2 of the numerous examples of movement based challenges that are present in almost all of gw2s endgame content btw. Its not just limited to these 2 instances. 

I literally said that about high tier fractals, raids, and strikes lol.

[Cyndercat.7615]

2 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

I literally said that about high tier fractals, raids, and strikes lol.

 

18 hours ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

YOU ARE THE TARGET PLAYER. Like seriously, you have been gatekeeped, don't have the time, don't like playing the specific meta builds, have been prevented from getting to T4 fractals. And it seems like you have a lot of desire to play the content, but don't have the ability to do it because you don't want to conform to what other players want you to do. 

Why say this then. You say heros are needed due to meta builds being required for t4 fractals, so clearly you want heros so you can do t4 fractals without others asking you to play meta. Therefore you will need to first solve the problems with heros being unable to complete all the movement based challenges before they will work in fractals. If you just want them for personal story, which is already soloable then say that.