Personal toughts on traitlines and their problems: Revenant edition.

[Frostinzo.3269]

The traits of revenant changed so many times after his release, so they may look a bit mixed now.

If you play tank (Herald) or support (vindicator), you want in both cases Retribution and salvation traits. What I find uncomfortable with herald is the absence of a dedicated main hand with shield. Adding a new weapon (main hand axe?) to this elite specialization will probably help him tank better. The vindicator only make me question about the spirits. Kalla was created out of nowhere just for not overlap spirit races, and now we have 3 humans. I can comprend the role of the luxon and kurzik, but seems to be a very bad repetition. Maybe it’s possible swap them with legendary seer and mursaat.

-“Eye for an eye” is better if give protection while you have stability.

-Swap “Tranquil balance” with “Invoking harmony”.

-Swap “Shared empowerment” with “Elevated compassion”.

Renegade is the condi dps spec. He probably will use invocation and corruption because of the high legends swap and the cdps, but I think actually he has too much flexibility as a support ability. I have no precise indications about support nerf, but actually it’s working as a better support than the others that are supposed to fill that role.

-“Glaring resolve” will work better with corruption if will grant expertise when you have conditions on you.

-“Rapid flow” should give boons to you after you inflict a condition to an enemy.

The power spec will probably based on devastation and invocation. Completely based on strike damage, the “mistwalker” (?) needs a low cost elite skill that buff himself. For open rift he may use double daggers, slashing the reality veil. Legendary tengu?

The flex spec is probably left on devastation and corruption. The “incarnator” (?) will lose the weapon and spirit swap. In exchange will have access to longbow and the ancient spirit of the god Arachnia. Arachnia will give him the access to her incarnation, changing all the abilities of the owner into melee combat focused skills. The traitline will be focused on siphoning health and transfer conditions to enemies.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Swapping shared empowerment with elevated compassion is an awful suggestion that does nothing for the spec.  That means you’d have to give up Draconic Echo to get Empowerment. The two are helpful to have with each other and considering Herald’s whole thing is boon support (not that it does it well generally compared to other options) it makes zero sense to make Herald choose between two boon support traits for the grand master. This is the exact opposite of what Herald needs. 
 

the rest of your suggestions are all over the place and random af as well 

[Frostinzo.3269]

The choice of Shared Empowerment is for let him work with Herdening Persistence too, giving you the choice of supporting allies with heal or damage reduction while you are giving them boons. You basically never use Draconic Echo becose if you are in pve you don't need to consume darkness and streght while you don't have to keep up Facet of elements, you consume it instantly. In pvp is the opposite, you want consume darkness and strenght for their effects and keep up elements during the moovement between points. And by they way, you have to know each facet pulse in the same moment of the other, so Shared empowerment give his bonus only one time, doesn't matter how many facets you keep up.

Regard the rest of what you define "random as kitten suggestions":

Swap " “Tranquil balance” with “Invoking harmony” is usefull because Invoking harmony is useless and Tranquil balance is strong. In the master section all the traits are bad for a healer, while in the adept you prefer take Vital blessing, skipping Tranquil balance. While you use Ventari, you don't want swap legend to keep up alacrity, so vindicator is perfect as it give a burst healing mechanich without let you lose Ventari. This means you never go into legendary alliance to activate the trait. Vital blessing is essential for the huge heals and vigot is gives, and Tranquil balance is very good too.

"Eye for an eye": on revenant you cannot focus on put break stuns in you utility, so give a trait that you will activate few times isn't that great. Better rework it into something Jalis will apreciate, like defenses while have stability, boon in his kit.

"Glaring resolve": same tought as Eye for an eye. Meanwhile, adept invocation has nothing specifically designed for condi dps, so it's better add something in that way on Glaring resolve or Rising tide.

"Rapid flow": Incensed response is a good trait, but honestly i think there must be a better option in mater invocation section. I tought at Rapid flow, but i agree right now on the possible complain from pvp players as it is very good in pvp. Probably a better version of Incensed response will be cool.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see what problem you are trying to solve.

I don't see any problem being solved. 

These are random, speculative changes. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

@op

I use hardened persistance with elevated compation that would wreck  my build  since Anet  wrecked Draconic Echo ....

And another no cause that would also make 2 defensive/suport  traits compete with each other while great traits would offer 3 offensive traits that would work only  towards 1  build type... it would be a awfull overall trade for the class  it would work  only for that build  and your interests OP.

 

The way that it  is  promotes more trade offs its  better designed  as  well  and my  elevated compation  heal  values are quite good to, worth  to be a great trait.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Frostinzo.3269]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see what problem you are trying to solve.

I don't see any problem being solved. 

These are random, speculative changes. 

I just gave my opinion for what i think should improve revenant traitlines. Just like you did on my opinion, but without being unnecessarily cocky.

[Frostinzo.3269]

4 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

@op

I use hardened persistance with elevated compation that would wreck  my build  since Anet  wrecked Draconic Echo ....

And another no cause that would also make 2 defensive/suport  traits compete with each other while great traits would offer 3 offensive traits that would work only  towards 1  build type... it would be a awfull overall trade for the class  it would work  only for that build  and your interests OP.

 

The way that it  is  promotes more trade offs its  better designed  as  well  and my  elevated compation  heal  values are quite good to, worth  to be a great trait.

Wait, so basically you say i'm proposing these changes only for the benefit of my personal build meanwhile you say your problem is these changes destroy your personal build. Is't that hypocrisy, sir? Personally i think giving might to allies is a supportive trait, not an offensive one, but i can see the difference of opinion and on what it's based. I think elevated compassion will not compete with hardened persistence because as a Herald healing is not your effective role. People may use it now because there are only worst option for a heal revenant, but when Vindicator will come out if you want a heal revenant a small ammount like 650 heal every 3 seconds will make you laugh lloking at the healing a vindicator can make with a dodge. In my opinion Shared empowerment it's a must, then you can chose between hardened persistance and elevate compassion, where the first option citated is clarely more peculiar. Hope i've been enough expanatory.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Frostinzo.3269 said:

I just gave my opinion for what i think should improve revenant traitlines.

Sure, so you just want to voice your opinion or do you think you should be taken seriously and have some ideas to actually change the class? Because no one can do that if you don't explain why these changes are needed. Let's start again: You said this:

What I find uncomfortable with herald is the absence of a dedicated main hand with shield. Adding a new weapon (main hand axe?) to this elite specialization will probably help him tank better.

So you think a new weapon on Herald will help you tank better ... why do you think that? Why does Herald need to tank better to begin with? Do you realize that at least in PVE, Herald is already one of the MOST capable classes that exists? Do you really think you need to tank better with it?

Edited September 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

22 hours ago, Frostinzo.3269 said:

Wait, so basically you say i'm proposing these changes only for the benefit of my personal build meanwhile you say your problem is these changes destroy your personal build. Is't that hypocrisy, sir? Personally i think giving might to allies is a supportive trait, not an offensive one, but i can see the difference of opinion and on what it's based. I think elevated compassion will not compete with hardened persistence because as a Herald healing is not your effective role. People may use it now because there are only worst option for a heal revenant, but when Vindicator will come out if you want a heal revenant a small ammount like 650 heal every 3 seconds will make you laugh lloking at the healing a vindicator can make with a dodge. In my opinion Shared empowerment it's a must, then you can chose between hardened persistance and elevate compassion, where the first option citated is clarely more peculiar. Hope i've been enough expanatory.

 

It kinda felt like it its for improving ur might boon gimick  stacking , cause  that change is awfull if not to get a bnig boost  in might  stackign while also having shield traited for condi removal or something (yes it felt a greedy change),  and  i can  heal way  more than  a vindicator with passives alone, Herald on pve  for  10 tagets   has 10k+ per  sec(total) output  with a passive  alone, out of PVE since the 10 targets was  removed  its  5k-6k  total close to 1.2k ticks every ser and  my elevation compation is healin more than the  double of that puny 650 heal... even my regen values are double of that.

Tried vindicator skills  with +2.1 k healing power(wich is my current healing power stats)  and alot of outgoing heal modifiers and felt quite  awfull...

That  passives trait with  the  healing facet  is a good way to play small scale support roles(someties when used with ventari  can hold a 15 players  under heavy Siege pressure more  than most fb's can since they dont have deven big heals out of the box nor the capabilities of the Herald since they are more focused  for utility).

 

Note : i woul not mind  with that change if we had somethign decent for suport on the great traitlines since Anet removed  the 10 ally from Herald outside PVE, and for this reason we cant loose another support great trait, Herald is more support than offensive spec and ending with 3 offensive fgreat traits would be just idiotic buildwise, if players dont know how to use the  traits its another thing.

Edit: Elivated Compation heals 1.2k, removing this from great master erases what combination rev has that is decent with Ventari, the way it is atm  u choose to support with condi removal shield 4 and 5 or choose might stacking for every one, actually theres a trait that could  be swaped  would be draconic echo since lost what made it strong for the team  and should be demoted to midle tier rather than be a grandmaster trait.

Edit2: players that use invoking armony and monk runes will have better healing output  (facets will trigger monk runs when on passive with 10 alies we used to have perma Monk runes effect maxed), on pve heals m8 reach arround 1.5k /i dont pve nor use monk runes cant get exact values, having this while traited shield  for  some strong heals + protection + condi removal.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Frostinzo.3269]

23 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, so you just want to voice your opinion or do you think you should be taken seriously and have some ideas to actually change the class? Because no one can do that if you don't explain why these changes are needed. Let's start again: You said this:

What I find uncomfortable with herald is the absence of a dedicated main hand with shield. Adding a new weapon (main hand axe?) to this elite specialization will probably help him tank better.

So you think a new weapon on Herald will help you tank better ... why do you think that? Why does Herald need to tank better to begin with? Do you realize that at least in PVE, Herald is already one of the MOST capable classes that exists? Do you really think you need to tank better with it?

As you can read before, i alredy explained many of the choices i made for my comments. But i apreciate this more talkish approach.

First of your questions: I think the main hand weapons Herald can wield are not that defensive as they have no evade/block/sustain. By the traits and the skills he has i can recognize him as a tank, so a main hand weapon that can have more sustain will be more interesting.

Second & third questions: personally i think the great of the power budget of tanky herald is on glint's heal and shield skills. Honestly i don't think Herald is one of the most defensive specs, except for the last phase. So yeah, a dedicated main hand weapon will fit.

If there is any other obscure line in my suggestions keep asking.

[Frostinzo.3269]

7 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

It kinda felt like it its for improving ur might boon gimick  stacking , cause  that change is awfull if not to get a bnig boost  in might  stackign while also having shield traited for condi removal or something (yes it felt a greedy change),  and  i can  heal way  more than  a vindicator with passives alone, Herald on pve  for  10 tagets   has 10k+ per  sec(total) output  with a passive  alone, out of PVE since the 10 targets was  removed  its  5k-6k  total close to 1.2k ticks every ser and  my elevation compation is healin more than the  double of that puny 650 heal... even my regen values are double of that.

Tried vindicator skills  with +2.1 k healing power(wich is my current healing power stats)  and alot of outgoing heal modifiers and felt quite  awfull...

That  passives trait with  the  healing facet  is a good way to play small scale support roles(someties when used with ventari  can hold a 15 players  under heavy Siege pressure more  than most fb's can since they dont have deven big heals out of the box nor the capabilities of the Herald since they are more focused  for utility).

 

Note : i woul not mind  with that change if we had somethign decent for suport on the great traitlines since Anet removed  the 10 ally from Herald outside PVE, and for this reason we cant loose another support great trait, Herald is more support than offensive spec and ending with 3 offensive fgreat traits would be just idiotic buildwise, if players dont know how to use the  traits its another thing.

Edit: Elivated Compation heals 1.2k, removing this from great master erases what combination rev has that is decent with Ventari, the way it is atm  u choose to support with condi removal shield 4 and 5 or choose might stacking for every one, actually theres a trait that could  be swaped  would be draconic echo since lost what made it strong for the team  and should be demoted to midle tier rather than be a grandmaster trait.

Edit2: players that use invoking armony and monk runes will have better healing output  (facets will trigger monk runs when on passive with 10 alies we used to have perma Monk runes effect maxed), on pve heals m8 reach arround 1.5k /i dont pve nor use monk runes cant get exact values, having this while traited shield  for  some strong heals + protection + condi removal.

That's an interesting quote, man. I agree that you can it's completely possible move Draconic echo instead, the result it's almost the same.

But now i'm interessed by the healing comparison. We can assume 2100 base healing power. Both vindicator and herald share:

-Tranquil balance (x1,2 heals);

-Serene rejuvenation (x1,15);

-Selfless amplification (+661,5 heal, it's not moltiplicative);

-Sigil of transference (x1,1);

-Rune of the monk (x1,2);

-No food.

Herald can count on the Elevated compassion (10 allies, but the effect can heal each ally once over 3 seconds);

Vindicator can count on the healing dodge and the Saint's shield trait buff (x1,2).

Herald: (389+2100*0,175)*1,2*1,15*1,2*1,1+661,5=2040 heal every 3 seconds on 10 allies.

Vindicator: (2570+2100*0,5)*1,2*1,15*1,2*1,1*1,2+661,5=7390 heal + 3620 barrier every dodge on 5 allies.

With the right traits vindicator can dodge almost around every 3 seconds while never going in the alliance legend, so keeping perma alacrity with Ventari. I don't won't to be disrespectul, but i think vindicator is really busted as an healer, while Elevated compassion seems to be a cool option, but not comparable. What do you think about?

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Frostinzo.3269 said:

That's an interesting quote, man. I agree that you can it's completely possible move Draconic echo instead, the result it's almost the same.

But now i'm interessed by the healing comparison. We can assume 2100 base healing power. Both vindicator and herald share:

-Tranquil balance (x1,2 heals);

-Serene rejuvenation (x1,15);

-Selfless amplification (+661,5 heal, it's not moltiplicative);

-Sigil of transference (x1,1);

-Rune of the monk (x1,2);

-No food.

Herald can count on the Elevated compassion (10 allies, but the effect can heal each ally once over 3 seconds);

Vindicator can count on the healing dodge and the Saint's shield trait buff (x1,2).

Herald: (389+2100*0,175)*1,2*1,15*1,2*1,1+661,5=2040 heal every 3 seconds on 10 allies.

Vindicator: (2570+2100*0,5)*1,2*1,15*1,2*1,1*1,2+661,5=7390 heal + 3620 barrier every dodge on 5 allies.

With the right traits vindicator can dodge almost around every 3 seconds while never going in the alliance legend, so keeping perma alacrity with Ventari. I don't won't to be disrespectul, but i think vindicator is really busted as an healer, while Elevated compassion seems to be a cool option, but not comparable. What do you think about?

From where comes that 7k heal on leap ? iremmember the barrier but the heals max i had was 1k to 4k ish

Vindicator dodge has a problem, can be spammed wich sounds great but only outside combat, on combat it is a whole new story, for support wont make damage, for damage wont make decent use of victor skills wich are forced in the skillbar, the Victor Urn is a self kill buton for puny heals that thing needs a buff :P or allows the spec to  receive heals from team revenants(at least would promote team play) for the Vindicator since cant receive heals while on it and even the internal traits wont  heal, even if a player doesnt want to use the skill has it a lateral clutter in the build and has to wait to use other Archmorus skills and then can F2 back to Arch again.

Vindicator on combat wich felt weak and the internal skill managed inside the legend wont allow that well fast response that  a Herald/Ventari allows even on legend swap ventari is a 5-6k aoe heal shield 4 condi cleanse with 5k aoe heal, staff 2 and 4 another 4k aoe heal, true nature 6k outside pve and 10-11k heal on pve and we are not talking the passives here, besides for alacrity its better to run a heavy boon duration build with a renegade/jalis rather than try to use misntrell on Herald IMO Herald/ventari doesnt need  boon duration just the minimal that  the  class offers is more than enough.

Vindicator felt more towards a melee power builds with suppor for close combat(but there arent good stats for the class atm to fit well this role at least with its current beta state), the moment one land the leap its perma CC and dead class barelly has any escapes, similiar to the Willbender.

Still the leap spam can work well in PVE imo way to well but that will be everything a vindicator will do  leap leap leap leap some skils leap leap leap, and i magine that this isnt what Anet have in mind to the class altough its what the class will probably become lol even if Anet doesnt want to...lol

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Frostinzo.3269 said:

First of your questions: I think the main hand weapons Herald can wield are not that defensive as they have no evade/block/sustain. By the traits and the skills he has i can recognize him as a tank, so a main hand weapon that can have more sustain will be more interesting.

So that's not true ... Evades and blocks are on Sword, Staff and Hammer and Staff even has a cleanse and heal skill. Also, there is no reason to think adding  a weapon will result in more of the things you say Revenant doesn't have (while it already has them). I mean, sure, it might be more interesting to have another weapon focused on sustain ... but that doesn't explain why we need it. 

Quote

Second & third questions: personally i think the great of the power budget of tanky herald is on glint's heal and shield skills. Honestly i don't think Herald is one of the most defensive specs, except for the last phase. So yeah, a dedicated main hand weapon will fit.

If there is any other obscure line in my suggestions keep asking.

No obscurity, just things that aren't true. The tankiness of the herald build is a result of more than just what you get from the heal and the shield skills. I think you need to go back and experience more of the game and learn what all the classes you are making suggestions for are capable of doing. 

I would question more of the suggestions you have made ... but based on the inaccuracies of this thread and all the other classes you made suggestions for, I see little reason to push further. My suspicions are confirmed. The changes are random and not based on a good understanding of the classes and their abilities. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Mordeus.1234]

I'm pretty happy with most of the Revenant trait lines. However the Salvation one needs some reworking, especially when the Viktor skills coming into play. It's too rigid in it's role in boosting heal effectiveness and supporting Ventari, instead it need to be more versatile like the Elementalist's Water or the Ranger's Druid trait line.

The requisite minor trait Serene Rejuvenation needs to have that alacrity boost moved to an optional major trait since it only applies when using Ventari, so it shouldn't be a universal trait thing. Instead the alacrity boosting effect should be moved to Generous Abundance, the major trait that spawns healing orbs when using a legend skill.

Tranquil Balance needs to be merged with Serene Rejuvenation (once the alacrity is moved) so it becomes one heal power boost trait with a further boost when above the health threshold. There's just too many traits that boost heal power which is rather unimaginative. At the moment there are 5 traits which do that.

Tranquil Balance could then be a trait that reduces the duration of damaging conditions like poison, burn & bleeding but probably not the mental themed ones like Torment or Confusion.

Words of Censure doesn't really live up to its name. Instead of spawning healing orbs when doing crowd control, it should instead inflict a condition like slow or increase the cooldown of an enemy's skill.

Also the Retribution trait Planar Protection which creates the projectile shield when using a heal skill, is incredibly counterintuitive with the Glint heal skill Infuse Light as it interferes with the damage absorb effect. Not sure what to do about that other than change the activation requirement to a threshold or elite skill activation.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Mordeus.1234

[Frostinzo.3269]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:36 AM, Aeolus.3615 said:

From where comes that 7k heal on leap ? iremmember the barrier but the heals max i had was 1k to 4k ish

Vindicator dodge has a problem, can be spammed wich sounds great but only outside combat, on combat it is a whole new story, for support wont make damage, for damage wont make decent use of victor skills wich are forced in the skillbar, the Victor Urn is a self kill buton for puny heals that thing needs a buff 😛 or allows the spec to  receive heals from team revenants(at least would promote team play) for the Vindicator since cant receive heals while on it and even the internal traits wont  heal, even if a player doesnt want to use the skill has it a lateral clutter in the build and has to wait to use other Archmorus skills and then can F2 back to Arch again.

Vindicator on combat wich felt weak and the internal skill managed inside the legend wont allow that well fast response that  a Herald/Ventari allows even on legend swap ventari is a 5-6k aoe heal shield 4 condi cleanse with 5k aoe heal, staff 2 and 4 another 4k aoe heal, true nature 6k outside pve and 10-11k heal on pve and we are not talking the passives here, besides for alacrity its better to run a heavy boon duration build with a renegade/jalis rather than try to use misntrell on Herald IMO Herald/ventari doesnt need  boon duration just the minimal that  the  class offers is more than enough.

Vindicator felt more towards a melee power builds with suppor for close combat(but there arent good stats for the class atm to fit well this role at least with its current beta state), the moment one land the leap its perma CC and dead class barelly has any escapes, similiar to the Willbender.

Still the leap spam can work well in PVE imo way to well but that will be everything a vindicator will do  leap leap leap leap some skils leap leap leap, and i magine that this isnt what Anet have in mind to the class altough its what the class will probably become lol even if Anet doesnt want to...lol

 

I gave you the calculation on the precedent post. You can verify it making them by wiki. Maybe you didn't use all the equip you put on your Herald.

If you use retribution and salvation you have plenty of dodge recharge, even in combat you can use it very often. Vindicator has a double identity. The alliance skill bar it's mostly for the pvp, where you enjoy flexibility for damage and healing. In pve you never use alliance skill bar, you just want to stay in Ventari and spam heals and alacrity. Basically you don't have to chose to heal and give boons with dragon or ventari, you just use both of the strong pats of alliance and centaur at the same time. For that reason i think Herald should be more focused and sharing boons and tanking instead of healing. As a vindicator you use staff too, because greatsword seems underwhelming. On the equip, i think both needs some concentration for share boons. If you just want some pure healer vindicator does so well too. On alacrity side, i personally think the support renegade is out of place. As a condi dps, it has too much supportivity in my opinion. I disagree on your vision of Anet plans. Putting all that endurance gain on retribution trait clarely it's a big shout at that gameplay. Similar to daredevil, but a healing version.

[Frostinzo.3269]

On 10/2/2021 at 1:31 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

So that's not true ... Evades and blocks are on Sword, Staff and Hammer and Staff even has a cleanse and heal skill. Also, there is no reason to think adding  a weapon will result in more of the things you say Revenant doesn't have (while it already has them). I mean, sure, it might be more interesting to have another weapon focused on sustain ... but that doesn't explain why we need it. 

Hammer and staff are ok for a tanky Herald, but they are both double hand weapons. To use with shield you should go with sword, by it seems to me more an offensive style weapon, something you want to use with Shiro playstyle.

On 10/2/2021 at 1:31 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

No obscurity, just things that aren't true. The tankiness of the herald build is a result of more than just what you get from the heal and the shield skills. I think you need to go back and experience more of the game and learn what all the classes you are making suggestions for are capable of doing. 

I would question more of the suggestions you have made ... but based on the inaccuracies of this thread and all the other classes you made suggestions for, I see little reason to push further. My suspicions are confirmed. The changes are random and not based on a good understanding of the classes and their abilities. 

Honestly i think your destructive approach to the conversation is more likely a try to put yourself on a pedestal and judge badly the others opinion's in order to bust your ego. With this kind of approach don't care about question more, it will be just useless for this kind of conversation like was from the start.

[Frostinzo.3269]

On 10/2/2021 at 9:44 AM, Mordeus.1234 said:

I'm pretty happy with most of the Revenant trait lines. However the Salvation one needs some reworking, especially when the Viktor skills coming into play. It's too rigid in it's role in boosting heal effectiveness and supporting Ventari, instead it need to be more versatile like the Elementalist's Water or the Ranger's Druid trait line.

The requisite minor trait Serene Rejuvenation needs to have that alacrity boost moved to an optional major trait since it only applies when using Ventari, so it shouldn't be a universal trait thing. Instead the alacrity boosting effect should be moved to Generous Abundance, the major trait that spawns healing orbs when using a legend skill.

Tranquil Balance needs to be merged with Serene Rejuvenation (once the alacrity is moved) so it becomes one heal power boost trait with a further boost when above the health threshold. There's just too many traits that boost heal power which is rather unimaginative. At the moment there are 5 traits which do that.

Tranquil Balance could then be a trait that reduces the duration of damaging conditions like poison, burn & bleeding but probably not the mental themed ones like Torment or Confusion.

Words of Censure doesn't really live up to its name. Instead of spawning healing orbs when doing crowd control, it should instead inflict a condition like slow or increase the cooldown of an enemy's skill.

Also the Retribution trait Planar Protection which creates the projectile shield when using a heal skill, is incredibly counterintuitive with the Glint heal skill Infuse Light as it interferes with the damage absorb effect. Not sure what to do about that other than change the activation requirement to a threshold or elite skill activation.

 

Personally i think Anet approach with the revenant's alacrity trait is to grant it only to a definite build. That probably the payoff of such a unflexible legend like Ventari.

Well, that true, many of the traits are repetitive. They are functional in my opinion, but some difference is apreciable.

The change for a selfish trait on salvation adept find my approval.

For "Word of censure" i can agree, but in that case "Invoking harmony" shall give support without have a legend swap option, or simply become "Tranquil balance".

Planar protection is a trait that isn't designed for Glint, but Ventari in my opinion. Moving the tablet around is considered a healing skill, so it's very usefull with the right build. With Glint i usually go for Close quarters, as i enjoy it while i disengage for the hammer usage.

[Aeolus.3615]

22 hours ago, Frostinzo.3269 said:

I gave you the calculation on the precedent post. You can verify it making them by wiki. Maybe you didn't use all the equip you put on your Herald.

If you use retribution and salvation you have plenty of dodge recharge, even in combat you can use it very often. Vindicator has a double identity. The alliance skill bar it's mostly for the pvp, where you enjoy flexibility for damage and healing. In pve you never use alliance skill bar, you just want to stay in Ventari and spam heals and alacrity. Basically you don't have to chose to heal and give boons with dragon or ventari, you just use both of the strong pats of alliance and centaur at the same time. For that reason i think Herald should be more focused and sharing boons and tanking instead of healing. As a vindicator you use staff too, because greatsword seems underwhelming. On the equip, i think both needs some concentration for share boons. If you just want some pure healer vindicator does so well too. On alacrity side, i personally think the support renegade is out of place. As a condi dps, it has too much supportivity in my opinion. I disagree on your vision of Anet plans. Putting all that endurance gain on retribution trait clarely it's a big shout at that gameplay. Similar to daredevil, but a healing version.

 

Outside pve wont work that well trust me in this, class melts easilly even with perma leap/dodging non stop, AND NO ONE will use victor elite skill to heal the alies NO ONE use it in  its current state wich is the stronger skill that victor has (Redemptor's Sermon as a 30 sec CD and only works when V reach 50% health).

What stats would one use to obtain good heal values  and still use as a power spec?

Vindicator is a damage power spec primarily  with support role  going minstrell stats would be a awfull bet and any other stats with healing power V lacks power and support value makign it a ver weak class to play tied to skills that need to be flipped wich make actions SLOW during combat decisions, most people dont realize this cause they are behind a boon ball or behind lots of reapers, scourges and FB's,  but trying to reach heal support with it will loose   the good things that classes offers ofensively while those skill are kind aforced in the skillbar, and going power will be the other way arround.

For vindicator to work well  how ur hoping work players have to  switch between  victor or Arch gameplay stances  on the skillbar, like a combat styte inside the legend 1/0,  for more dedicated support roles herald and renegade are  better suited    than V can be, at max V is bybrid spec, a player will be slow with decisions to heal alies and thinking leap spam can do all for the class is idiotic, if its all that V does class is awfully bad designed and will be nerfed later.

It doesnt matter how much a class can be busted on healing output if that gameplay doesnt exist or its not functional.

IMo this dual identity is very flawed  due how skills shift from Vic and Arch and the current speed of combat and decisions are needed.

Note: i  play extensivelly Ventari reventant in small scale and larger scale combat  i can measure how Vindicator is slow to response to the needs of a support Revenant and how bad the  fliping skill can be and a player wont stay in ventari most time unless he knowns that he is doing besides, GS with ventari? could work as a power build and ventari used for shield from range similiar to Valun build.

The current way V works its not good to go for dedicated heal builds, but its excelent base design to improve to a class that keeps on combat supporting surrounding alies while on close combat, but the moment u swap for ventari as a Vindicator ur forced to swap to staff and ventari  is dangerous to play on close combat.

A Vindicator/Jalis  somehow felt what was more suited for support and keep with a power role and keep the leap dodges while on stability carpets and good damage reducers, i can see players taking the salvation trait  line  to boost vindicator support but never use the ventari tablet, since they can have a dome on heal usage every 20sec, even leap to a dome at the end theres quite some interesting combos that can help to avoid V getting CC or KB on landing.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Virdo.1540]

i wish we could get something tiny like "Facet of might now grants 2 might"

and "burst of strength now inflicts 5 vulvn per hit" ,so it has a use to be used in condition form

[medivh.4725]

I play heal herald, but people only think that herald is good for dps. BTW could you tone down the herald shine effect?

Yes the ground symbol is annoying and distracting. Can anet make it less visible or semi transparent rather

[Jthug.9506]

Herald hasn’t been as good as renegade for power dps for a long time, as a hybrid boon bot and squad boon uptime enhancer it may have a place, but would require support to modify gear/builds to maximize the comp. It’s about an 8-12k dps loss to comp a power boon herald, that can be made up for, at least somewhat, by having other support drop boon duration for damage. However even power renegade is the 2nd worst power dps class on large hit box targets and the worst on small hitboxes.
 

I think that there’s probably a viable self healing power vindicator with jalis/vindicator legend loudout, especially if there are cantha stats that might support it.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Frostinzo.3269]

On 10/3/2021 at 7:36 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Outside pve wont work that well trust me in this, class melts easilly even with perma leap/dodging non stop, AND NO ONE will use victor elite skill to heal the alies NO ONE use it in  its current state wich is the stronger skill that victor has (Redemptor's Sermon as a 30 sec CD and only works when V reach 50% health).

What stats would one use to obtain good heal values  and still use as a power spec?

Vindicator is a damage power spec primarily  with support role  going minstrell stats would be a awfull bet and any other stats with healing power V lacks power and support value makign it a ver weak class to play tied to skills that need to be flipped wich make actions SLOW during combat decisions, most people dont realize this cause they are behind a boon ball or behind lots of reapers, scourges and FB's,  but trying to reach heal support with it will loose   the good things that classes offers ofensively while those skill are kind aforced in the skillbar, and going power will be the other way arround.

For vindicator to work well  how ur hoping work players have to  switch between  victor or Arch gameplay stances  on the skillbar, like a combat styte inside the legend 1/0,  for more dedicated support roles herald and renegade are  better suited    than V can be, at max V is bybrid spec, a player will be slow with decisions to heal alies and thinking leap spam can do all for the class is idiotic, if its all that V does class is awfully bad designed and will be nerfed later.

It doesnt matter how much a class can be busted on healing output if that gameplay doesnt exist or its not functional.

IMo this dual identity is very flawed  due how skills shift from Vic and Arch and the current speed of combat and decisions are needed.

Note: i  play extensivelly Ventari reventant in small scale and larger scale combat  i can measure how Vindicator is slow to response to the needs of a support Revenant and how bad the  fliping skill can be and a player wont stay in ventari most time unless he knowns that he is doing besides, GS with ventari? could work as a power build and ventari used for shield from range similiar to Valun build.

The current way V works its not good to go for dedicated heal builds, but its excelent base design to improve to a class that keeps on combat supporting surrounding alies while on close combat, but the moment u swap for ventari as a Vindicator ur forced to swap to staff and ventari  is dangerous to play on close combat.

A Vindicator/Jalis  somehow felt what was more suited for support and keep with a power role and keep the leap dodges while on stability carpets and good damage reducers, i can see players taking the salvation trait  line  to boost vindicator support but never use the ventari tablet, since they can have a dome on heal usage every 20sec, even leap to a dome at the end theres quite some interesting combos that can help to avoid V getting CC or KB on landing.

 

 

 

I won't give an aggressive impression, but in many lines seems like you skipped what i wrote. Let's make some statement:

-Victor's urn sucks. I think it's designed to suck. If you want to play pve you just never go into the alliance legend, costantly spamming healing and alacrity, so it doesen't matter which skills have the alliance legend. If you want play pvp you should play power and much of your power budget is on the elite skill. As payback, his counterpart, the Victor's Urn, is weak. This is the reason why you should keep your F2 instead of spam it on cooldown.

-If you play pvp you don't want follow completely his healing nature, using it more like a usefull support part of your kit. Probably you will use an Avatar set of stats for this role. Probably it's too early for say if it's good or bad in pvp, usually people need some time to learn new spec and the better way to use in that content, as it doesn't follow the normal traitlines that normal elite specs will use in order to maximise the focus on his role, preferring an hybrid approach.

-Dodge is the main mechanic for many elite specs. Mirage and Daredevil are the best cases. A great part of their kit pass through the dodge, even nerfing his movement action, but the specs are not bad in my opinion. A healing vindicator con dodge once every 3 seconds, a power vindicator need some more time, but honestly in both his roles i think having such a good power budget on a low cooldown mechanic is great. Let's go right to the point: Healing revenant has a 2570+healing*0,5 bas heal multiplier and power vindicator has a 1050*4 damage multiplier on dodge. These are big numbers. The different cooldown of the two let us understand which is his true incilation, but the other one as a niche to exist.

-I never said to use greatsword while using Ventari. Ventari needs the staff. The greatsword is a power weapons, but even in that role it feels clunky. I think it just needs some animation speed. Ventari in pvp is clunky too, but it's because it's basically designed for raids.

At last, honestly i think an herald that heals less than a vindicator because of his little base values and multipliers and gives half boons of a true support because not using concentration is not a big deal, doing half of the work in both senses and in both pvp and pve. I don't see vindicator bad response to healing, because the main difference with herald is that herald can only swap to shield and hope it is not in cooldown, o use facet of light and heal only himself (And this is huge in pvp, but not that much otherwise) while herald just has a fast cooldown on dodge and press a doble tap on the keyboard. The payoff on health ammount value the time of a dodge. I also play healing herald because i personally prefer play renegade as a cdps, especially in raids where i think is more enjoyable than other locations, but after a test for vindicator's supportivity... well, now it feels really a placeholder. Still had no time to practice much in pvp because my focus was at cryng in a corner for my catalist, but i will probably check the arenas when the time will come.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Frostinzo.3269

[Aeolus.3615]

@Frostinzo.3269 

 

I readed wha u wrote but i dont feel nor i saw that many heals while on WvW, improving heal output on vindicator felt the  least eficient of the builds a vindicator runs (taht 1k  base regen was expecting more output as well).

 

The vindicator victor healing skill was healing has much passive healing i  have from 1 facet .

wich stats have u tested th eclass? 

Note: Infuse light passive is 600 rad and heals over 1k regen tick per sec, and will work as much facet is up, selfless spirit is 240 just arround the caster for  5 ticks.

Anet will be forced to change Victor urn if they release it the way it is, there will be a good uproar if Anet forces a skill with such design in the skillbar its not a good thing its a trade off only with the downsides...

I think u guys are relying to munch on the vindicator leap and the long ICD heals.

Total outgoing heal doesnt matter in  combat if its used on  a clunky  way, and btw the leap of the vindicator can  be interrupted,  or used as a  warning  "gone drop here please CC me to death", a pré-preparation spike  can be also used  to obliterate  the vindicador since the aoe warning on the enemy will  tell everything.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Aeolus.3615