New Thief Elite Preview.

[Zacchary.6183]

59 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

We don't. But support cannot work with theives mechanics. If its support, its going to be useless. And well, scepter doesnt lend itself to much else.

With a few changes to core traits and an elite spec line completely dedicated to giving others healing and boons (or something like area denial via heavy conditions), a thief can definitely take up a support role.

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

And well, scepter doesnt lend itself to much else.

Scepter has never been a support-focused weapon, though. (Don't believe me? Look: there are literally no support-oriented skillsets on this page. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter ).

Scepter's defining quality atm is that it's a 900-range mainhand weapon that shoots magical projectiles. Some classes use it as a condi weapon (Necro and Mesmer), others use it as a power weapon (Ele and Guard). Beyond that, the closet thing to an identity is that a couple of different classes have a channel or "windup" skill like Dragon Tooth or Confusing Images.

[Meridian.9103]

1 hour ago, Cynz.9437 said:

With some imagination one can alter stealth/reveal to something supporty and we do have plenty of it (stealth that is).

Can we please stop this "turn stealth into a support effect" nonsense? It's a sure way to make that spec totally unplayable in wvw/pvp before EoD even released.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Scepter has never been a support-focused weapon, though. (Don't believe me? Look: there are literally no support-oriented skillsets on this page. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter ).

The Might generation on Symbol of Punishment and the healing from Water Trident look like support to me though.

It might not be a lot, but it's not nothing.

And just because if has never been deeply support-oriented before, doesn't mean it can't be so on Thief.

And even if it isn't support-oriented, the specialization can still be viable for support. Firebrand's Axe and Scourge's Torch are not support-oriented either, yet the specializations are viable for support.

21 minutes ago, Meridian.9103 said:

Can we please stop this "turn stealth into a support effect" nonsense? It's a sure way to make that spec totally unplayable in wvw/pvp before EoD even released.

No, just no.

Stealth is the one thing holding Thief back the most.

If the new specialization ends up being yet another Stealth-humper, it needs to do next to no damage in sPvP and WvW to make up for the amount of Stealth it has access to.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Meridian.9103]

5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

No, just no.

Stealth is the one thing holding Thief back the most.

If the new specialization ends up being yet another Stealth-humper, it needs to do next to no damage in sPvP and WvW to make up for the amount of Stealth it has access to.

Be careful what you wish for. If such a mechanic ends up making the player effectively unstealthable, it is done for. Remember, stealth is not a thief only effect, thus it will create all kinds of bad play interactions if one player can't be stealthed suddenly. Essentially boiling down to others players not wanting you around, because you can't get stealthed with them.

[Teratus.2859]

I'm pretty curious about the concept of a caster thief tbh.

Hopefully this will be an interesting one.

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, Meridian.9103 said:

Can we please stop this "turn stealth into a support effect" nonsense? It's a sure way to make that spec totally unplayable in wvw/pvp before EoD even released.

If we are only considering traditional thief gameplay, then yes.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Meridian.9103 said:

Be careful what you wish for. If such a mechanic ends up making the player effectively unstealthable, it is done for. Remember, stealth is not a thief only effect, thus it will create all kinds of bad play interactions if one player can't be stealthed suddenly. Essentially boiling down to others players not wanting you around, because you can't get stealthed with them.

We've seen with Virtuoso and Bladesworn that the elite spec can effect core skills and traits to interact better with the elite spec. So the approach for a theoretical non-stealth-based thief could be that core skills and traits that normally provide stealth instead do something else, but the elite spec could still be stealthed by other means. Heck, it might still be able to get stealth by using smoke fields, but they'll still have less access to it and more counterplay if they have to rely on smoke field combos for stealth.

 

Of course, that will require the replacement to make up for reduced stealth access, but I don't think "this elite specialisation is permanently Revealed" is the only possible way to do an elite specialisation that trades away some stealth for the ability to contribute more in situations where the stealth is less useful.

[UNOwen.7132]

13 hours ago, Cynz.9437 said:

 

I disagree. Rez thief used to be a thing for example. With some imagination one can alter stealth/reveal to something supporty and we do have plenty of it (stealth that is).

Don't forget the deadly banana peel xD

 

@Sind: where are you =.= You claimed we would get GS 😛

Rez thief was a terrible gimmick build that for one, wouldn't even function in PvE, but also didnt really function in PvP. And altering stealth does jack all. You don't get stealth access enough to be able to support with it. And if you do, then the initiative means its too easy, and Anet nerfs it to hell.

[UNOwen.7132]

13 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

With a few changes to core traits and an elite spec line completely dedicated to giving others healing and boons (or something like area denial via heavy conditions), a thief can definitely take up a support role.

Nope. There are 2 options. 1, make 1 initiative skill do all the supporting you need. Too easy, so Anet nerfs it out of existence. 2, require it to instead rotate several skills, creating a rigid, inflexible rotation where you just use cooldowns in sequence, negating the entire point of Initiative, and making it basically an Elementalist build given to thief for no reason. Doesnt work either. And thats the issue. Initiative and support just dont mix.

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Nope. There are 2 options. 1, make 1 initiative skill do all the supporting you need. Too easy, so Anet nerfs it out of existence. 2, require it to instead rotate several skills, creating a rigid, inflexible rotation where you just use cooldowns in sequence, negating the entire point of Initiative, and making it basically an Elementalist build given to thief for no reason. Doesnt work either. And thats the issue. Initiative and support just dont mix.

LMAO Watch this.

Shadow Arts

• Merciful Ambush: Reviving a player stealths you and allies near you. Stealth you apply revives downed players.
  • Stealth 3s
  • Radius: 200
  • Number of targets: 5
  • You and downed players are prioritized.
  • Revive: 2%
• Shadows Embrace: Applying stealth grants Resolution and Protection. Remove damaging conditions periodically.
  • Resolution 5s
  • Protection 5s
  • Damaging conditions removed: 1
  • Interval 3s
• Meld with Shadows: Stealth you apply lasts longer and increases movement speed.
  • Movement speed increase: 50%
  • Duration increase: 1s
• Shadow Savior: Shadowstepping to an ally places a Lesser Smokescreen at your feet. You and your allies are healed. Downed allied are revived.
  • Healing: 1056 (.4)
  • Lesser Smokescreen (15s CD)
    • Blindness 1s
    • Number of targets: 5
    • Blocks Missiles
    • Duration: 4s
    • Radius: 200
    • Combo Field: Smoke
    • Unblockable
  • Revive: 2%
• Shadow's Rejuvenation: Stealth you apply heals and grants you initiative. Stealth also grants Alacrity and Vigor.
  • Healing: 426 (.3)
  • Initiative: 1
  • Alacrity 5s
  • Vigor 5s
• Rending Shade: Smoke Fields you create strip boons from foes periodically. Boonless foes are inflicted with fear.
  • Boons Stolen: 1
  • Fear 1s
  • Interval: 1s

Edited October 6, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:30 AM, hash.8462 said:

He is holding Glint's Bastion on the left arm, nothing in the main one.

The only one that hold a weapon that has not been added is Willbender (the main hand sword).

I was considering that, but then decided it's in the background and similar enough to the "crystals" in the lower left side of the image, so it might as well be part of environment (except for the fact that it's consistent for espec art to contain their espec weapons/skins 😜 ).

[RyuDragnier.9476]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Nope. There are 2 options. 1, make 1 initiative skill do all the supporting you need. Too easy, so Anet nerfs it out of existence. 2, require it to instead rotate several skills, creating a rigid, inflexible rotation where you just use cooldowns in sequence, negating the entire point of Initiative, and making it basically an Elementalist build given to thief for no reason. Doesnt work either. And thats the issue. Initiative and support just dont mix.

They would actually mix rather well if the support is linked to stealth. Remember, we have a ton of stealth giving utility skills, and making it so the new spec trades stealth for something else powerful can create a support build on its own. Because if it's only that elite spec that trades stealth on Thief, then no other build on Thief is nerfed. If the Scepter is condi-focused on top of that, then we have offensive support and we have another DPS build option on top of that. You don't need initiative to create support after all, that's what the utility slot skills and traits are for.

[Massie.8615]

Daredevil seemed to attempt to be a brawler spec. Deadeye seemed more stealth based especially with an elite that removed reveal. Will this be more focused on teleports?

[UNOwen.7132]

2 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

LMAO Watch this.

Shadow Arts

• Merciful Ambush: Reviving a player stealths you and allies near you. Stealth you apply revives downed players.
  • Stealth 3s
  • Radius: 200
  • Number of targets: 5
  • You and downed players are prioritized.
  • Revive: 2%
• Shadows Embrace: Applying stealth grants Resolution and Protection. Remove damaging conditions periodically.
  • Resolution 5s
  • Protection 5s
  • Damaging conditions removed: 1
  • Interval 3s
• Meld with Shadows: Stealth you apply lasts longer and increases movement speed.
  • Movement speed increase: 50%
  • Duration increase: 1s
• Shadow Savior: Shadowstepping to an ally places a Lesser Smokescreen at your feet. You and your allies are healed. Downed allied are revived.
  • Healing: 1056 (.4)
  • Lesser Smokescreen (15s CD)
    • Blindness 1s
    • Number of targets: 5
    • Blocks Missiles
    • Duration: 4s
    • Radius: 200
    • Combo Field: Smoke
    • Unblockable
  • Revive: 2%
• Shadow's Rejuvenation: Stealth you apply heals and grants you initiative. Stealth also grants Alacrity and Vigor.
  • Healing: 426 (.3)
  • Initiative: 1
  • Alacrity 5s
  • Vigor 5s
• Rending Shade: Smoke Fields you create strip boons from foes periodically. Boonless foes are inflicted with fear.
  • Boons Stolen: 1
  • Fear 1s
  • Interval: 1s

Congratulations. You made a support build that sucks in PvP and PvE, and buffed the main PvP Shadow build by accident. 

[Zacchary.6183]

36 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Congratulations. You made a support build that sucks in PvP and PvE, and buffed the main PvP Shadow build by accident. 

Sure, but my strawman can suplex your strawman all day.

[UNOwen.7132]

2 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Sure, but my strawman can suplex your strawman all day.

In PvE, you made a build that, in order to do any supporting, requires 9 initiative just to provide any support and is hard-locked to Shortbow, meaning you would do extremely pathetic damage even by support standards. And what do you get for it? Well, you apply protection and resolution to people. The least important boons in PvE. Oh and insignificant healing outdone by engineer in medkit. 

 

As for PvP, there your initiative is going to be insufficient to even do much of anything. You still don't do damage, now you just also apply a bit of protection once in a blue moon. 

[Zacchary.6183]

43 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

In PvE, you made a build that, in order to do any supporting, requires 9 initiative just to provide any support and is hard-locked to Shortbow, meaning you would do extremely pathetic damage even by support standards. And what do you get for it? Well, you apply protection and resolution to people. The least important boons in PvE. Oh and insignificant healing outdone by engineer in medkit. 

 

As for PvP, there your initiative is going to be insufficient to even do much of anything. You still don't do damage, now you just also apply a bit of protection once in a blue moon. 

Do you even play thief? Did you even read what I posted? According to my changes:

1. Merciful Ambush got turned into a conditional Blinding Powder with no CD.
2. Merciful Ambush makes stealth into a buff that revives allies its applied to so you don't even need to revive for it to work.
3. Shadow's Embrace turned stealth into an indirect buff that applies Protection and Resolution, thereby providing 33% complete damage reduction.
4. Melding Shadows turns stealth into a buff that gives everyone affected 50% running speed.
5. Shadow Savior makes ALL of your shadowsteps provide a chunk heal (+ revive for downed allies), gives you a free mini smoke screen that blinds anyone attacking said down person and blocks projectiles in the process.
6. Shadow's Rejuvenation is yet another trait that applies necessary boons and synergizes well with Shadow's Embrace.
7. Rending shade turns all of your smoke fields into pulsing boonstrip/CC. Not only does it make thief x/p the best CC weaponset in the game, but it could also be used to hold point in some pvp matches. This trait also synergizes with Shadow Savior using the exact same concept to potentially break a finisher channel with little effort.
8. This isn't even the ELITE.

What I proposed works for Ninja Medic, if you even know what that is. So no, you're not "hard-locked" into shortbow. No, you do not NEED 9 initiative to provide support when there are utilities that can take advantage of these traits and other traitlines that add to the support you can bring. Yes, a solid 33% damage reduction against something like jade bows, who regularly three-hits most players in seconds, is good to have at the rate thief can apply it. No, support doesn't always come in healing and buffs, but they help.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[UNOwen.7132]

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Do you even play thief? Did you even read what I posted? According to my changes:

1. Merciful Ambush got turned into a conditional Blinding Powder with no CD.

Which isn't good. Thief for one doesn't want to be in situations where there are downed players around, but worse yet, in that situation the number 1 thing you're dealing with is the enemy cleaving you. Stealth, famously, does absolutely nothing against cleave. 

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. Merciful Ambush makes stealth into a buff that revives allies its applied to so you don't even need to revive for it to work.

Do you play thief? It literally already does that. And you can guess how useful it is based on the fact that you didnt even know it does that.

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. Shadow's Embrace turned stealth into an indirect buff that applies Protection and Resolution, thereby providing 33% complete damage reduction.

Sounds very impressive, actually isnt. Its a lot of investment for a very minor buff. Compare Auramancer Tempest here, which can grant more protection, more often, makes the protection stronger, adds *more* damage reduction ontop of that, while having way more healing, being way tankier, providing a ton of CC and even doing alright damage. And that build isnt meta.

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. Melding Shadows turns stealth into a buff that gives everyone affected 50% running speed.

A very slightly better swiftness. Which is only better in combat. Not very impressive.

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. Shadow Savior makes ALL of your shadowsteps provide a chunk heal (+ revive for downed allies), gives you a free mini smoke screen that blinds anyone attacking said down person and blocks projectiles in the process.

It already does that. Well, not the revive. Its not good. Like at all. And all youre doing is adding a bit of base healing which, spoiler: Doesn't save it. Again, contrast Tempest here. The mini smoke screen is cute, but 200 radius is tiny, they can just walk out, and its on a hefty cooldown. For support purposes, it sucks. 

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. Shadow's Rejuvenation is yet another trait that applies necessary boons and synergizes well with Shadow's Embrace.

It gives you vigor (Which you have to spare) and alacrity (Which doesnt interact with initiative and isnt very useful). It doenst give anyone else either of those boons. Alacrity is also not that huge of a deal in PvP, as you can tell from Orders from Above which is just alright. 

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. Rending shade turns all of your smoke fields into pulsing boonstrip/CC. Not only does it make thief x/p the best CC weaponset in the game, but it could also be used to hold point in some pvp matches. This trait also synergizes with Shadow Savior using the exact same concept to potentially break a finisher channel with little effort.

Yes. All those smoke fields you create. Very rarely. Of which only one is actually large enough for it to be relevant (smokescreen, the OG). Which is something other builds already do better.

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1. This isn't even the ELITE.

Nothing what you did would set up anything of worth.

 

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

What I proposed works for Ninja Medic, if you even know what that is. So no, you're not "hard-locked" into shortbow. No, you do not NEED 9 initiative to provide support when there are utilities that can take advantage of these traits and other traitlines that add to the support you can bring. Yes, a solid 33% damage reduction against something like jade bows, who regularly three-hits most players in seconds, is good to have at the rate thief can apply it. No, support doesn't always come in healing and buffs, but they help.

Good luck applying stealth without shortbow 2. You need a blast finisher to do so regularly, and you will find thief has just 1 weapon skill that is a blast finisher. Shortbow 2. If youre in x/P, then congrats, you have stealth traits you cant really use, and smokefield traits that require the enemy to not walk out of the tiniest smokescreen possible. Or walk in in the first place. And no, its not good to have at the rate thief can apply it at all. Its not even good enough at the rate Support Tempest applies it at, or even with Tempests buffs.

[Zacchary.6183]

13 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Thief for one doesn't want to be in situations where there are downed players around, but worse yet, in that situation the number 1 thing you're dealing with is the enemy cleaving you.

Everyone deals with cleaving, aoes and projectiles a good majority of the time

Thief has plenty of tools to deal with those kinds of situations, but since pvp is purely and forcefully dominated by purists and people who want thief in non-roles that can be filled by almost any profession that builds for it, nobody will find what they are regardless how many times they are shown the data. For example, up until recently d/d drd deathblossom was considered a gimmicky build and completely rejected by thieves in the pvp community. When it finally became the flavor of the month, it lasted two days before it got nerfed to hell. A record for any build. That same build can easily maintain a stack of 20+ bleeds 15+ stack of poison in pve, less so in pvp but it can still easily destroy d/p roamers in wvw.

tl;dr Thief does have the tools to deal with cleave but nobody wants or cares to use them.

22 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It literally already does that

You're right. I don't use Shadow Arts enough to really know them in depth. I like to use more evades, interrupts, etc. so when I get a kill they can't complain about stealth. But turning it into an AoE stealth is much better than what it is now. At least if your doubleteaming with another thief, you are giving them another chance at a stealth attack.

 

30 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Its a lot of investment

Not really if you use your skills and utilities near your teammates when you need them, which you should be doing anyways considering how most of our skills work. And with this, you're pumping out something more than just might, fury and regen which every build in existence does anyway.

Auramancer has to maximise aura uptime to get that support going. But their entire profession is built on auras. Likewise, thief has some support options if you look at what they can apply in spades. And it doesn't have to be healing and boons. That is why I brought up d/d drd condi, because the melting potential on that build is ungodly. Thief also has major access to smoke fields, all of which apply blind. Shortbow, even in power builds, can support with aimed aoe interrupts. Daredevil has heavy access to interrupts and a trait that makes interrupts even more punishing. Deadeye is a good might/fury bot with minimal traiting, although it would be THE thief support spec if it could share the boons on it's stolen skills and then some.

Most of this stuff can be done on full marauders, stay tanky and still maintain decent damage. And btw, Auramancer may have some CC from earth/air skills, lightning aura and tornado but it still can't match the number of interrupts you can load onto daredevil. Sleight of Hand, x/p, SB, Disrupting Daggers (x3), Bandit's defense, Pitfall, Scorpion Wire (x2). Not only that thief has a few traits in both core and daredevil that enhance interrupts so a build dedicated to interrupts could probably outdo a large portion of builds if played properly. However, like I said, nobody wants or cares to use them.

57 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

A very slightly better swiftness.

Yeah I am sure a 50% increase over the original buff is slight. Runes of speed, Dash and SB is enough to keep up with mounts in wvw and it's speed mod is 66%. A coordinated team could absolutely abuse the 50% to get across maps and combined with.

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It already does that.

The chunk heal it currently has is trash. 200/500 does nothing but 1000 for everyone does. 200 units is 80 under Smoke Screen's and it's aoe is sizeable. Radius is the key word. And 2% by itself might not be much, but 2% a bunch of times for various reasons can shave seconds off revival. Same concept with Signet of Malice's passive, where its 132 heal per proc is trash but 50+ times in a few seconds is godly. You're not just using one trait here.

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It gives you vigor (Which you have to spare) and alacrity (Which doesnt interact with initiative and isnt very useful).

Some people do not have much access to vigor so more vigor for them is better. Alacrity still affects steal and thief utilities, both of which still would take advantage of these traits. More use = more better. Also it seems you actually didn't read the part where it says "Stealth you apply".

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yes. All those smoke fields you create. Very rarely. Of which only one is actually large enough for it to be relevant

Now you're just reaching. Black Powder's radius is decent for on point and Smoke Screen is good for coverage, but combine with Shadow savior you have over twice the access to smoke fields with potential of lower costs. Again, builds that excel in certain roles, like auramancer, often have to go all in to get to that point. You are arguing each trait as a standalone and that is never the case. Secondly, this is only one line and one example. There are plenty of things thief can get that will allow it to provide some support other than an outlet for terribad rage.

 

2 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Good luck applying stealth without shortbow 2. You need a blast finisher to do so regularly, and you will find thief has just 1 weapon skill that is a blast finisher. Shortbow 2. If youre in x/P, then congrats, you have stealth traits you cant really use, and smokefield traits that require the enemy to not walk out of the tiniest smokescreen possible. Or walk in in the first place. And no, its not good to have at the rate thief can apply it at all. Its not even good enough at the rate Support Tempest applies it at, or even with Tempests buffs.

So making enemy players walk off a point is bad. Gotcha.

[ASP.8093]

This "ninja medic" thing sounds 10x worse than just playing a normal bursty build with some combination of Trickery, Smoke Screen, Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility, and Basilisk Venom to provide incidental play-making team support.

Edited October 7, 2021 by ASP.8093

[Zacchary.6183]

46 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

This "ninja medic" thing sounds 10x worse than just playing a normal bursty build with some combination of Trickery, Smoke Screen, Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility, and Basilisk Venom to provide incidental play-making team support.

Barely anyone else is coming up with ideas other than "Let's get yet another outclassed DPS elite spec that  also get nerfed later... but this time its SHADOW LITERALLY NINJA*".

Edited October 7, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[UNOwen.7132]

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Everyone deals with cleaving, aoes and projectiles a good majority of the time

Not well. And your build certainly gets hard countered by it.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Thief has plenty of tools to deal with those kinds of situations, but since pvp is purely and forcefully dominated by purists and people who want thief in non-roles that can be filled by almost any profession that builds for it, nobody will find what they are regardless how many times they are shown the data. For example, up until recently d/d drd deathblossom was considered a gimmicky build and completely rejected by thieves in the pvp community. When it finally became the flavor of the month, it lasted two days before it got nerfed to hell. A record for any build. That same build can easily maintain a stack of 20+ bleeds 15+ stack of poison in pve, less so in pvp but it can still easily destroy d/p roamers in wvw.

Thats because the build was bad. Until they changed deadly arts traits to also make it apply a bunch of poison and have more condi damage. Thats why it suddenly became good, and got nerfed. Well "good". 

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

tl;dr Thief does have the tools to deal with cleave but nobody wants or cares to use them.

You're right. I don't use Shadow Arts enough to really know them in depth. I like to use more evades, interrupts, etc. so when I get a kill they can't complain about stealth. But turning it into an AoE stealth is much better than what it is now. At least if your doubleteaming with another thief, you are giving them another chance at a stealth attack.

Not really, it has no consequence whatsoever. If youre playing 2 thieves on the same team, youre already losing by default.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Not really if you use your skills and utilities near your teammates when you need them, which you should be doing anyways considering how most of our skills work. And with this, you're pumping out something more than just might, fury and regen which every build in existence does anyway.

Oh it very much so is. You only have 1 utility that applies stealth to teammates, and its got that annoying restriction where they cant walk out of it, SR. Otherwise, youre gonna be burning a lot of initiative. And Might and Fury are more useful than what you provide. Considerably os in fact.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Auramancer has to maximise aura uptime to get that support going. But their entire profession is built on auras. Likewise, thief has some support options if you look at what they can apply in spades. And it doesn't have to be healing and boons. That is why I brought up d/d drd condi, because the melting potential on that build is ungodly. Thief also has major access to smoke fields, all of which apply blind. Shortbow, even in power builds, can support with aimed aoe interrupts. Daredevil has heavy access to interrupts and a trait that makes interrupts even more punishing. Deadeye is a good might/fury bot with minimal traiting, although it would be THE thief support spec if it could share the boons on it's stolen skills and then some.

Sure, but that profession built on auras does what you want thief to do, just way better. And thief has no support options that are even worth mentioning. The disruption is poor (good luck hitting a meaningful AoE interrupt when tis that slow), Pulmonary Impact, the trait that "makes interrupts even more punishing" does around 400-600 damage and as a result is COMPLETELY unplayable, and Deadeyes support gimmick is worthless.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Most of this stuff can be done on full marauders, stay tanky and still maintain decent damage. And btw, Auramancer may have some CC from earth/air skills, lightning aura and tornado but it still can't match the number of interrupts you can load onto daredevil. Sleight of Hand, x/p, SB, Disrupting Daggers (x3), Bandit's defense, Pitfall, Scorpion Wire (x2). Not only that thief has a few traits in both core and daredevil that enhance interrupts so a build dedicated to interrupts could probably outdo a large portion of builds if played properly. However, like I said, nobody wants or cares to use them.

Yeah I am sure a 50% increase over the original buff is slight. Runes of speed, Dash and SB is enough to keep up with mounts in wvw and it's speed mod is 66%. A coordinated team could absolutely abuse the 50% to get across maps and combined with.

Thief cannot maintain decent damage on full glass cannon zerkers. What makes you think they could maintain decent damage on a marauders build that isnt going full damage. And no, Auramancer very much so not only matches the interrupts you can put on Daredevil, it eclipses them. Stun is far more valuable than Daze. And most of the skills you mention are worthless. And no, those traits that enhance interrupts are so WORTHLESS that a build dedicated to interrupts is outdamaged by a support Firebrand autoattacking. I'm not even joking, its that bad. No one wants to use them because theyre unplayable. And no, 50% doesnt matter. If you want to get across maps, just use AoE swiftness. Its easier to get, and due to the hard cap of 400 movement, it has literally the same effect.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

The chunk heal it currently has is trash. 200/500 does nothing but 1000 for everyone does. 200 units is 80 under Smoke Screen's and it's aoe is sizeable. Radius is the key word. And 2% by itself might not be much, but 2% a bunch of times for various reasons can shave seconds off revival. Same concept with Signet of Malice's passive, where its 132 heal per proc is trash but 50+ times in a few seconds is godly. You're not just using one trait here.

500 vs 1000 with same healing coefficient is not actually a major difference. 80 units make a huge difference in radius. 200 is only 20 units bigger than black powder, which is tiny. 2% even a bunch of times isnt worth it, the trait exists, and it sucks. Shadow Refuge gives you 5% per tick, and no one uses it because it sucks. Signet of Malice sucks outside of PvE, not a good example.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Some people do not have much access to vigor so more vigor for them is better. Alacrity still affects steal and thief utilities, both of which still would take advantage of these traits. More use = more better. Also it seems you actually didn't read the part where it says "Stealth you apply".

It says "stealth also gives Alacrity". That applies only to yourself. Even if it applied to others, its just worse than Orders from Above. Alacrity to yourself has close to no relevance. Consume Plasma gives it. You barely notice it. As for Vigor, we already apply it in an AoE with Bountiful theft. 10 seconds even. You can tell its not terribly useful.

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Now you're just reaching. Black Powder's radius is decent for on point and Smoke Screen is good for coverage, but combine with Shadow savior you have over twice the access to smoke fields with potential of lower costs. Again, builds that excel in certain roles, like auramancer, often have to go all in to get to that point. You are arguing each trait as a standalone and that is never the case. Secondly, this is only one line and one example. There are plenty of things thief can get that will allow it to provide some support other than an outlet for terribad rage.

 

So making enemy players walk off a point is bad. Gotcha.

Black Powders radius is pathetic for a point, its why you dont really use it other than to access stealth. Smoke Screen is good, but good lord that cooldown. The shadow saviour one sucks. Both auramancer, and your hypothetical build, have to go all-in on support. Auramancer just does every single part better, including damage. And no, there isnt. Also you dont make enemies walk off a point, the radius is far too tiny for that.

[Tails.9372]

6 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

and Deadeyes support gimmick is worthless

Ironically DE would have been the perfect candidate for a "commander" type support spec. but they blew that opportunity.

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Oh it very much so is. You only have 1 utility that applies stealth to teammates, and its got that annoying restriction where they cant walk out of it, SR. Otherwise, youre gonna be burning a lot of initiative.

People often forget this, but Blinding Powder applies stealth to teammates as well.