There is no niche or use for Vindicator in PvE.

[Raiken.1476]

With the beta test being concluded, it's clear there is not one single thing Vindicator would be useful for in any type of PvE content. As of now, the class provides about 30-31k damage per second on golem with a pure power damage build, which is pathetic compared not only to overtuned EoD elite specs, but also to classes already in the game, and even to the other two revenant elites, which still don't have a consistent power DPS build. Aside from that, the class provides zero noteworthy utility for either a power or a support build, aside from maybe Assassin's Presence which you'd bring a Renegade for either way, no crowd control, and due to the absolutely kitten dodging (who thought a 150 endurance cost was a good idea?) it also has much lower survivability than other revenants. This is due to a multitude of issues with the class design, mainly:

 

- The damaging dodge costing 150 endurance, which is an absolutely ridiculous cost that should not be in the game under any circumstances.

- The damaging dodge taking ages to cast for mediocre damage, causing a major DPS loss in order to gain its only DPS buff.

- The legend skills staying flipped after switching to Assassin stance and back.

- GS5 doing far, far less than its tooltip states. 

- Energy issues, caused partially by F2.

- Not a single control effect in Alliance stance. 

 

Truth be told though, this class isn't exactly far from fixed. A couple mechanical changes could make this a very viable power DPS specialization, with a playstyle that's much less clunky than now. Here are some fixes I would make in order to get this class to a level where it is playable in a group:

 

- Make the damaging dodge cost 100 endurance, with the cast time of the healing dodge. Make it also...dodge properly.

- Make the Grandmaster traits determine the starting position of Alliance skills. Forerunner of Death should default to Archemorus skills, Saint of zu Heltzer to Viktor skills. The traits are literally named after them, I don't know why it doesn't work like this. 

- Reduce the cooldown, remove the cast time of F2 and reduce the impact of the skill (costs less, gives less, something like 10 energy for 25 endurance, 5 second cooldown, extended to 15 by Leviathan Strength), to give more control over the vindicator's energy and endurance levels.

- Fix GS5. And not just by making the tooltip match the current mess, but the skill should do more...either what's on the current tooltip, or make at least the initial hit deal damage. Feels weird to make a gravedigger swing do nothing.

- Add a control effect to an Archemorus skill. Personally, I'd love to see something like a 3s knockdown on the elite, but it could go elsewhere should the range make it problematic in competitive modes.

- Buff the damage, especially on Archemorus skills. The legend needs to be worth picking. Right now, you get a bit more DPS and a bunch of extra utility out of Dwarf stance.

- Make effects based on hitting multiple targets stronger on a single target. Reaper shouts were not a good idea.

- Make Alliance Tactics a passive F3 skill that locks Alliance legend skills.

 

However, DPS isn't the only thing this class could do. Its utility could use a boost as well:

 

- Imperial Impact/Amnesty should provide boons to 10 people instead of 5. At least in PvE, this way it can actually help a raid/strike group. 

- Urn of Saint Viktor should do...something useful, honestly. For 10 upkeep and absolutely destroying you, it needs a big upside.

- The range on GS3 should be fixed as it currently has lower range than it's supposed to.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Raiken.1476

[Obtena.7952]

The problem with Vindicator is that no one will ever see it compete with Renegade or Herald in PVE. Even if Anet buffed it to 40KDPS ... few people would care. Issue isn't really with Vindicator (though don't take this as me saying it doesn't need some attention before release) ... it's with Herald and Renegade. 

Those specs offer non-selfish options teams like. Vindicator doesn't, at least not to the same degree. I think there is little Anet can do to change that and it's something we will have to get used to as they continue to release especs ... some Espec will not hold an optimal place in the game. Vindicator is likely to be one of those. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Raiken.1476]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The problem with Vindicator is that no one will ever see it compete with Renegade or Herald in PVE. Even if Anet buffed it to 40KDPS ... few people would care. Issue isn't really with Vindicator (though don't take this as me saying it doesn't need some attention before release) ... it's with Herald and Renegade. 

Those specs offer non-selfish options teams like. Vindicator doesn't, at least not to the same degree. 

Revenant still hasn't filled the power DPS role. A selfish power DPS can work without Herald and Renegade competition, but it needs more damage and less carry requirements.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Raiken.1476 said:

Revenant still hasn't filled the power DPS role. A selfish power DPS can work without Herald and Renegade competition, but it needs more damage and less carry requirements.

OK ... but that doesn't change what I said because no team will care about Vindicator being in a power DPS role without it being buffed into absurd levels of DPS (which is highly unlikely to happen). Those teams don't care what role you want to play. They care about optimal play. 

It's the same bad logic people complained about Necro. It wasn't desirable either ... but people continued to think if Anet buffed it's DPS, it would be. That was a fallacy because the buff it needed to be desirable from a DPS perspective was ridiculously high. If Vindicator is topping at 30K DPS ... it's the SAME thing. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jah Warrior.9682]

Agree 100% with OP and will add some suggestions- give gs5 cc ability  ( and maybe gs3) . Fix gs3 distance moved ( its bugged atm) as it's not 900 range. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Jah Warrior.9682

[otto.5684]

On 10/2/2021 at 2:27 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that doesn't change what I said because no team will care about Vindicator being in a power DPS role without it being buffed into absurd levels of DPS (which is highly unlikely to happen). Those teams don't care what role you want to play. They care about optimal play. 

It's the same bad logic people complained about Necro. It wasn't desirable either ... but people continued to think if Anet buffed it's DPS, it would be. That was a fallacy because the buff it needed to be desirable from a DPS perspective was ridiculously high. If Vindicator is topping at 30K DPS ... it's the SAME thing. 

Most power dps builds deal in the mid 30k range and many of them dont offer much else. This is not an issue. I agree though, unless you offer something additional, why not use another slightly higher dps?

[Raiken.1476]

11 hours ago, Jah Warrior.9682 said:

Agree 100% with OP and will add some suggestions- give gs5 cc ability  ( and maybe gs3) . Fix gs3 distance moved ( its bugged atm) as it's not 900 range. 

True, added the GS3 bug to the list.

10 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Most power dps builds deal in the mid 30k range and many of them dont offer much else. This is not an issue. I agree though, unless you offer something additional, why not use another slightly higher dps?

Yeah, right now, the best power DPS build for revenant is Power Renegade, which does about 34-35k, can dodge normally and offers a lot of CC. It's still not a great DPS build and is typically replaced by builds with more burst, utility or sustained damage. If Vindicator wants to compete, especially with its low dodging capabilities, it should provide more damage and at least some kind of CC or utility (that works while running a DPS build).

[ArthurDent.9538]

Would rather anet focus its effort on improving power rev dps numbers at the core level as core and herald power are both bottom tier with renegade only reaching mediocre tier because of broken (I do not use that term lightly) icerazor + dance of death synergy which should be nerfed. For reference swords are supposed to be more single target focused while gs more cleave focused, yet gs is higher single target dps than swords and vindicator is still trash dps. With that being said vindicator can use a lot of polish and mechanic tweaks because it really feels annoyingly clunky at the moment with 10s cd alliance stance flip overs, 150 endurance dodge, overpriced underwhelming f2, etc.

[Obtena.7952]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:54 AM, Raiken.1476 said:

True, added the GS3 bug to the list.

Yeah, right now, the best power DPS build for revenant is Power Renegade, which does about 34-35k, can dodge normally and offers a lot of CC. It's still not a great DPS build and is typically replaced by builds with more burst, utility or sustained damage. If Vindicator wants to compete, especially with its low dodging capabilities, it should provide more damage and at least some kind of CC or utility (that works while running a DPS build).

I think that's the point you are missing here. What does it need to 'compete' with? If the point of especs is just a different flavour (and it is), then there isn't a competition. People just take the flavour they want. Sure, it might not be the most popular flavour for any specific situation. That's not a reason to change it to another flavour. 

We really need to understand that at this point, we shouldn't really be talking about the performance of the class ... it's too early for that. The performance is just about changing numbers, not actually what the spec does or how it does it. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Raiken.1476]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think that's the point you are missing here. What does it need to 'compete' with? If the point of especs is just a different flavour (and it is), then there isn't a competition. People just take the flavour they want. Sure, it might not be the most popular flavour for any specific situation. That's not a reason to change it to another flavour. 

We really need to understand that at this point, we shouldn't really be talking about the performance of the class ... it's too early for that. The performance is just about changing numbers, not actually what the spec does or how it does it. 

That's exactly what I said and you missed - the performance of the class is limited by more than its DPS. It's limited by its lack of utility, CC, control over Alliance skills and inability to dodge threatening mechanics, leading to the mediocre and fairly low damage Power Renegade build outclassing it pretty much completely even if it did just as much damage. There are simply too many factors that hinder its performance and viability that aren't a matter of pure number tuning. Sure, you can get a different flavor out of the elite specialization, but it's not good having one basically confined to open world because there's no reason to include it in a group.

[Dahkeus.8243]

I think there's really a wholistic issue of "niches" and elite specs overall for PvE.

 

When it comes to meta groups, there's only so many roles and there are far more elite specs than there are of those roles to fill from any sort of ideal perspective.  This is just exacerbated with another round of elite specs releasing in EoD.

 

So, at this point, there's no way every elite spec will fall into some sort of ideal niche for the meta or even the near-meta roles that are available.  What they *can* do is fill in as a viable alternative for those roles closely enough so that groups aren't substantially hamstrung by having those elite specs included in the group.

 

For Vindicator, this probably will just have them as a generic DPS role in groups without a ton of support utility.  Maybe with some balance, they will also be able to run a healer-type role.  Either way, they likely won't supercede the other alternatives, but it will be good enough so that groups don't complain if one fills their ranks.

[Raiken.1476]

6 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

I think there's really a wholistic issue of "niches" and elite specs overall for PvE.

 

When it comes to meta groups, there's only so many roles and there are far more elite specs than there are of those roles to fill from any sort of ideal perspective.  This is just exacerbated with another round of elite specs releasing in EoD.

 

So, at this point, there's no way every elite spec will fall into some sort of ideal niche for the meta or even the near-meta roles that are available.  What they *can* do is fill in as a viable alternative for those roles closely enough so that groups aren't substantially hamstrung by having those elite specs included in the group.

 

For Vindicator, this probably will just have them as a generic DPS role in groups without a ton of support utility.  Maybe with some balance, they will also be able to run a healer-type role.  Either way, they likely won't supercede the other alternatives, but it will be good enough so that groups don't complain if one fills their ranks.

It's true in some cases like the Guardian, which is versatile enough to play as power DPS, condition DPS, healer and boon support in PvE, but currently, there's no good dedicated power DPS build for the Revenant, so at the moment, Vindicator has a niche it can fill and it seems to be created with the intent to fill it (a power based weapon, traits to give power and increase strike damage), but lacks not only the damage, but also the basic framework to function properly in a group.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Raiken.1476 said:

That's exactly what I said and you missed - the performance of the class is limited by more than its DPS. 

It's not missed. The performance of the spec depends on how its features are related to the spec, including DPS. It's not necessarily true that the spec is show have certain features and functions that makes it compete for PVE. It maybe the case it was never intended to have that feature set in the first place.

Vindicator ... seems like it's not theme build for PVE to begin with, so it's no surprise that it's not doing much for PVE people. That's not a problem. It doesn't need to be doing much in PVE; we already have numerous specs that fill PVE. We can't just assume that if there is a hole to fill in PVE, Vindicator should fill it, even if the theme doesn't support it. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Raiken.1476 said:

That's exactly what I said and you missed - the performance of the class is limited by more than its DPS. It's limited by its lack of utility, CC, control over Alliance skills and inability to dodge threatening mechanics, leading to the mediocre and fairly low damage Power Renegade build outclassing it pretty much completely even if it did just as much damage. There are simply too many factors that hinder its performance and viability that aren't a matter of pure number tuning. Sure, you can get a different flavor out of the elite specialization, but it's not good having one basically confined to open world because there's no reason to include it in a group.

I don't think it's fair to say it's unable to dodge threatening mechanics. I think there was a bug in the beta where Vindicator could be hit while up in the stratosphere, but if that was fixed (and it should be), that dodge has a pretty long duration, allows you to choose exactly where you want to be when it ends, and has a lot of options to speed up endurance recovery. If you run the third or maybe even second grandmaster, I could see it being better at dodging mechanics than a build with normal dodges. Might even get away with the first grandmaster if the period between mechanic triggers is long enough.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 11/2/2021 at 9:18 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think it's fair to say it's unable to dodge threatening mechanics. I think there was a bug in the beta where Vindicator could be hit while up in the stratosphere, but if that was fixed (and it should be), that dodge has a pretty long duration, allows you to choose exactly where you want to be when it ends, and has a lot of options to speed up endurance recovery. If you run the third or maybe even second grandmaster, I could see it being better at dodging mechanics than a build with normal dodges. Might even get away with the first grandmaster if the period between mechanic triggers is long enough.

That is what I think too. 
 

edit: why are peeps confused by what I said?  

Edited November 4, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

I’ve said this in other threads, but the “it’s not a PvE spec so it doesn’t need to compete there” is such bad argumentation and it needs to go. This isn’t 2012 Anet anymore. Damage splits between PvE/WvW/PvP exist literally for the sole reason of providing viability to a spec across all game modes 

Edited November 3, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I’ve said this in other threads, but the “it’s not a PvE spec so it doesn’t need to compete there” is such bad argumentation and it needs to go. This isn’t 2012 Anet anymore. Damage splits between PvE/WvW/PvP exist literally for the sole reason of providing viability to a spec across all game modes 

But Vindicator will have splits by default so according to what you said, it will be already be viable across all game modes anyways and there isn't a problem here, or ever really. I mean, are you supporting the idea that Vindicator isn't 'viable' in PVE, despite the fact it will have splits? What is that conclusion based on? How does that contradiction exist?

The reality here is that Vindicator is viable in PVE ... it's just that people dislike the idea that the features and functions of a spec are linked to the theme. It's a dislike, ESPECIALLY if those people are playing GW2 because that's how it's been since the beginning. Some specs simply don't do certain game modes well, EVEN with splits. That just because their theme don't ideally support those modes. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

If a spec doesn’t perform well in a game mode (specifically pve) it’s because they aren’t split well, NOT because the theme doesn’t support the mode.  Renegade is a perfect example of this; bad in PvP for years not due to design inherently (though it had some of those issues as well), but due to numbers.  The numbers were brought into better alignment and bam, it started performing extremely well.  Splits also don’t guarantee viability within PvE, despite that being their purpose; that’s a bad assumption. The splits have to be made in a smart manner with the proper numbers, but due to human error and lack of resources this clearly doesn’t happen 100% of the time. 
 

While yes, Vindicator does have splits for PvE, currently they’re vastly undertuned.  The spec brings no appreciable amount of support the way Renegade or Herald (lol) does, so there’s no reason it shouldn’t be performing as a high tier DPS option in PvE and be split accordingly. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

While yes, Vindicator does have splits for PvE, currently they’re vastly undertuned.

Right ... because you are talking about a spec that is in beta, but that's not really the discussion here. The point is that the OP thinks there is a problem because Vindicator doesn't 'fill a role' in PVE. That doesn't make sense because EVERY class/spec can 'fill' the most fundamental role to be useful in PVE. Absolutely NOTHING prevents a person using a spec they want in PVE unless they choose to play with people that tell them how to play and if players don't play Vindicator enough to satisfy Anet, we know they will change it, like we see in the patch notes for other especs. 

I mean, the point I'm making with the theme is that it determines what the spec does and what the spec does is most definitely a determining factor in how the spec performs in different game modes. That's not even debatable and splits don't change that. If a skill isn't useful in PVE, no change on the skills paramaters on the PVE side will change that. 

You might not see a reason Vindicator shouldn't be performing as a high tier DPS option in PVE but the fact is that nothing in the game requires it, so there isn't a reason for Anet to go out of their way to make it a high tier DPS option in PVE to begin with. You have to ignore 9 years of game experience to conclude Vindicator should be a high tier DPS PVE option. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jah Warrior.9682]

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... because you are talking about a spec that is in beta, but that's not really the discussion here. The point is that the OP thinks there is a problem because Vindicator doesn't 'fill a role' in PVE. That doesn't make sense because EVERY class/spec can 'fill' the most fundamental role to be useful in PVE. Absolutely NOTHING prevents a person using a spec they want in PVE unless they choose to play with people that tell them how to play and if players don't play Vindicator enough to satisfy Anet, we know they will change it, like we see in the patch notes for other especs. 

I mean, the point I'm making with the theme is that it determines what the spec does and what the spec does is most definitely a determining factor in how the spec performs in different game modes. That's not even debatable and splits don't change that. If a skill isn't useful in PVE, no change on the skills paramaters on the PVE side will change that. 

You might not see a reason Vindicator shouldn't be performing as a high tier DPS option in PVE but the fact is that nothing in the game requires it, so there isn't a reason for Anet to go out of their way to make it a high tier DPS option in PVE to begin with. You have to ignore 9 years of game experience to conclude Vindicator should be a high tier DPS PVE option. 

How do you know exactly what they want to accomplish with Vindicator? Please share with us your insider knowledge at Anet. This reasoning is circular and vague and best - what reason do any of the current high tier pve dps function as as such? Nothing in the game requires Firebrand or Scourge to be one of the highest condi specs in the game right now, but anet made them that way. Theres plenty of other specs that could be in the trash can in that area, or at the top tier pve level. We could go in tons of different directions with that line of conversation. 

 

Moreover there are quite a few feedback posts showing that this spec is underwhelming, and not really executing what the spec was promoted to be: a high dmg dps class with a unique dodge and an innovative legend mechanic. The reality was far different. As an example, it's the 2nd or 3rd lowest damage spec. Catalyst even beats it. I am not going into the other myriad of issues this spec has, OP has done a good job of that , just using that as one example of the underwhelming execution of the Vindicator. He also said something true: it doesnt fill a role in PVE that isnt already filled - by another rev spec or any other class in the game. Which is true. You can debate whether or not it should, but you cant deny his or other rev players opinions on this. 

 

Nothing is final and skills/themes can be tweaked, edited and tuned differently to accomplish whatever anet wants to do. I am optimistic they see the data and the feedback and testing and make the appropriate decisions. This is what a beta is for obviously. 

 

Imo OP wants the Vind to be a high tier dps option, as well as a viable support option. This means that it can compete with power ren (or be better), stay with boon herald or alac ren, which seems to line with the intentions of the traits. I dont think that's much to ask and with the way betas work in the past, we will hopefully see some numbers tuned up and traits/skills edited to show that. You would have to ignore 9 yrs of game experience to think that they absolutely wont listen to the feedback of the players on any aspect of any spec. You may be surprised. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I wouldn't say that the Vindicator has no role in PVE.  I would say it has no role, period.  Not one within the rev class, or in any game mode.  It took me awhile to realize this, mostly because I didn't play the spec myself, but the abilities and the traits that the Vindicator bring are awfully similar to the Herald and Renegade. 

First, look at the legend(s).  The Alliance Stance just alternates between doing damage and healing/buffing teammates.  So... what makes this different from Herald, which also alternates between supporting teammates and doing damage via the facets?  Or the Renegade, which needs to take a trait but nonetheless supports the team with Soulcleave, Breakrazor, and the orders?  IMO the Alliance Stance does this worse than the other two legends, because it has to spend energy to flip through it's utilities while the others do it all at the same time.  Look at what each alliance skill brings:

 

• Selfish Spirit: Heal, might, vulnerability.
• Nomad's Advance/Battle Dance: Movement skills (can't seamlessly choose which one), either damage + might or regen + resistance.
• Scavenger's Burst/Tree Song: Damage and Quickness or Regeneration and Condi Cleanse
• Reaver's Rage/Awakening: Stun Break with Damage + Fury, or Group Break + Protection
• Spear of Archemorus/ Urn of Viktor: Damage or Heal + Self Damage

 

The Greatsword itself, aside from damage, inflicts chill and vulnerability.  So, what's new?  All of the might, fury, protection, team heals, and vulnerability generation isn't.  Herald and Renegade already dole out those in spades.  Regeneration?  Well, the Renegade lacks it, but Herald comes with a souped-up version.  Granted, Condi Cleanse and Resistance aren't on the e-spec legends, but they're on core legends.  The Greatsword inflicts chill, which is on core Mallyx and Axe.  So... self quickness and a group stun break.  That's all the new legend really does.  Littered about these skills are minute amounts of endurance generation, but that doesn't do much but try and compensate for the super-expensive dodge that gets forced on the profession.

If you look at the new trait lines, you'll see a similar pattern.  The other two e-specs follow the same general trend: for each tier there's usually an offensive trait, a defensive trait, and then either special mechanics or heals/buffs.  The Vindicator is not that different:

 

• Adept Tier
• Leviathan Strength: Enhances the Special Mechanic and the Alliance Stance.
• Amnesty of Shing Jea: Buffs
• Redemption Sermon: Heals
• Master Tier
• Reaver's Curse: Deals with the Special Mechanic of a unique dodge
• Angsiyan's Trust: Slightly less selfish version of Reaver's Curse
• Song of Arboreum: Group Buffs that render the other two options obsolete.
• Grandmaster Tier:
• Forerunner of Death: Deals Increased Damage on Dodge
• Vassals of the Empire: Boons and Chill on Dodge
• Saint of zu Heltzer: Heals and Barrier on Dodge

 

It has less offensive traits than the other two.  You could call that unique, but I wouldn't call having less offensive options a good thing.  Also to note that this brings something else, which is group Vigor, so add that to the pile of self-quickness and a group stun break.  These traits are also very simple, either focusing on the Alliance Stance, or focusing on the dodge, or its Redemption Sermon.  I'm a bit surprised that Reaver's Curse and Angsiyan's Trust aren't merged together to make room for an offensive trait.  The Master's tier is basically Arboreum, and then the other ones that aren't as good at doing the same thing.

The inability to find a role for this specialization comes from the lack of anything meaningfully new.  I've played support tempest in PVE and WvW, and I can definitely confirm that a group stunbreak and group vigor aren't enough to carry a team.  There isn't going to be an encounter where you sit back and go "I know what the group needs: more vigor!"  Self-quickness is alright if you find yourself constantly outnumbered and alone, but it comes with the caveat that it's on Alliance Stance, which is full of mediocre damage and heal skills.  The dodge is cool looking, but it is unlike the other dodge abilities on Daredevil and Mirage.  Those just added functionality without taking anything away, while the Vindicator's dodge has significantly increased endurance costs (and thus, recharge time).  This makes the Vind's dodge another skill you use, instead of being added functionality on top of everything else.  The greatsword cleaves to 5, but ask yourself this question: how often are you surrounded by more than 3 enemies in melee range?

What exactly am I supposed to do with this spec?  Look cool while I kill things with less efficiency and utility than the other rev e-specs? 

[phokus.8934]

Open world pve is irrelevant as literally any spec and gear is viable.

For group/instanced play, Vindicator is in a void of any role as it’s outclassed and outshined by Renegade and Herald.

We are in a waiting game to see what changes they push out.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Jah Warrior.9682 said:

How do you know exactly what they want to accomplish with Vindicator?

I don't ... but you know what is awesome about you asking me that? Is that you didn't ask ANYONE ELSE ... because to make the argument Anet needs to change the spec because it doesn't have a role, a person needs to know the answer that question. 

What I do know is that Anet don't HAVE to make Vindicator fill a role or be top tier DPS for PVE; that's simply based on historical information about how the game has worked for 9 years. People who play Vindicator will have their own reasons to play it. Anet will change it IF people don't play it in sufficient amounts that sarisfy Anet's threshold. We know that from recent patch notes.

If the spec doesn't do things you find useful in any particular game mode ... then don't play it because THAT is how it will get on Anet's radar for change. There is no reason to assume that people won't play it in PVE because it doesn't have a 'role' for Anet to pre-emptively change it. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

From discussions I've had and seen with others, Vindicator does seem to be better as a straight healer than Herald or Renegade. Saint of Zu Heltzer with HP investment is a fair chunk of healing and barrier, and because that's the one that only needs 50 endurance, combine it with Song of Arboreum and it can be repeated scarily often. The actual Alliance Skills aren't so reliable because of the flipovers, and I could see it being run as something like Jalis/Ventari instead, but there's something. Healing on its own isn't generally in high demand, but getting good healing out of a build that also has the utility of Ventari and Jalis might well prove worthwhile, possibly as a tank.

 

Not getting that pure DPS spec that people wanted is a bit disappointing, though. 

[Jah Warrior.9682]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't ... but you know what is awesome about you asking me that? Is that you didn't ask ANYONE ELSE ... because to make the argument Anet needs to change the spec because it doesn't have a role, a person needs to know the answer that question. 

What I do know is that Anet don't HAVE to make Vindicator fill a role or be top tier DPS for PVE; that's simply based on historical information about how the game has worked for 9 years. People who play Vindicator will have their own reasons to play it. Anet will change it IF people don't play it in sufficient amounts that sarisfy Anet's threshold. We know that from recent patch notes.

If the spec doesn't do things you find useful in any particular game mode ... then don't play it because THAT is how it will get on Anet's radar for change. There is no reason to assume that people won't play it in PVE because it doesn't have a 'role' for Anet to pre-emptively change it. 

I asked you that question because you spoke for anet. Noone else here did. I stated facts. Noone here also is able to force anet to do anything, including having a beta or even a forums for that matter to collect feedback on this spec( do you see the circular reasoning this brings up?). Those are facts. Then why do they do all of the above before release? 

Here's another fact. One cant invalidate the opinions of others or the precedents that have been set by anet. This is the reason we have these discussions and look to make improvements or adjustments as needed. But please keep telling other people they are wrong and you are right for expressing feedback and opinions. Guess we will have to wait and see as usual what Anet does. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Jah Warrior.9682