Theory: Abaddon and DSD

[Kayberz.5346]

These are just some thoughts i have had while looking over some old lore and trying to piece things together, this theory may be completely wrong but i thought i might as well bring it up for discussion.

 

The main premise: Abaddon and the deep sea dragon have a secret connection/association with each other

 

Now i know that the whole connection between the gods and the dragons thing has been essentially "debunked" as far as them being directly connected to each other inherently, but this theory however is more exploring the idea that Abaddon and the deep sea dragon had interactions with each other either willingly or otherwise

 

im just gonna list off a couple of random things about Abaddon and the DSD that i think are interesting to explore.

 

Abaddon and his minions have these twisted demonic forms, with Abaddon himself featuring tentacles. the deep sea dragons minions are said to be essentially eldritch horrors with tentacles and all that good stuff.

 

Demons in guild wars are said to come from the mists as far as we are aware, but they are notably associated with Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies, the other "outcast" god beings that we know of

 

Abaddon was the one behind the whole Shiro shenanigans as well as the demonic Titans that the charr worshiped as gods

 

in Cantha we all know about "the deep" , this strange and unexplained "realm" that is deep under the jade sea featuring demons with an unknown origin lead by kanaxai that turn people mad that come into contact with them

 

Abaddon and the deep sea dragon both have power over the domain of water, and both of them coincidentally are associated with secrets, with the information about them being seemingly almost erased from most written history

 

Abaddon was seemingly much more powerful than any of the other human gods, with it taking the combined effort of 5 of them just to imprison him.

 

i want to explore the idea that maybe Abaddon in some way interacted with the deep sea dragon, and potentially even may have been collaborating with them, siphoning some of their magic or was even himself corrupted by the deep sea dragon willingly or unwillingly, possibly even becoming its champion.

 

maybe Abaddons rebellion against the other gods about gifting magic had something to do with the intentions of the DSD

 

maybe the reason Abaddon was so powerful was because of a secret association with the DSD

 

 this theory isn't really "solid" imo, but i think its a fun idea to ponder with both Abaddon and the DSD being shrouded in so much mystery while sharing many things in common, im curious to hear what other people have to say about this premise

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

It certainly is a fun theory and with how much DSD has been kept secret there is room for anything.

Since its minions are described as eldritch horror type creatures I sincerely hope that we return to the horror themes that started IBS. I hope that we get pulled into Shing Jea with all its bubble gum happiness only to be drug down in dark horror fantasy.

I hope that we get down into the depths and see a statue of Abaddon and Margonites that gave themselves to DSD.

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It certainly is a fun theory and with how much DSD has been kept secret there is room for anything.

Since its minions are described as eldritch horror type creatures I sincerely hope that we return to the horror themes that started IBS. I hope that we get pulled into Shing Jea with all its bubble gum happiness only to be drug down in dark horror fantasy.

I hope that we get down into the depths and see a statue of Abaddon and Margonites that gave themselves to DSD.

I agree, @Kayberz.5346's theory here certainly has room in the game to exist. Probably not likely given the reasons that OP stated already, but it's definitely rational/possible/fun.

But even more so, I'd like to see a return to the dark horror theme we got a taste of in Bjora. It doesn't have to be an entire zone, but to have some of that back would be cool.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I'm highly skeptical of the OP's theory, but like the other responses I also welcome a bit more dark horror elements, though I'm not 100% sure the current iteration of Anet can pull it off.  Not a lot that's come out about EoD has me very enthused.

[Fueki.4753]

I really don't know if Arenanet will even be able to scratch the surface of Eldritch horror.

They didn't scratch the surface of general horror in the IBS, so they might not do it with Selbbub either.

 

I can totally see Selbbub's minions just being weird tentacle monsters without any actual horror elements.

And don't forget the game's age rating is teen, so they can't actually dive into horror themes without sacrificing the teen rating.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

The main premise: Abaddon and the deep sea dragon have a secret connection/association with each other

Very unlikely. It's been pretty firmly established over and over again that there is no direct cionnection or association between the Six Gods and the six Elder Dragons.

And this includes "interactions with each other" as the Elder Dragons were firmly and completely asleep while the Six Gods were on the planet of Thyria.

 

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Abaddon and his minions have these twisted demonic forms, with Abaddon himself featuring tentacles. the deep sea dragons minions are said to be essentially eldritch horrors with tentacles and all that good stuff.

This seems to just be a case of shared domain (water).

The Seven Reapers of Grenth use the same appearance as Reclaimed Risen Wraiths in Hall of Chains. Zero relation.

Balthazar's Forged are non-living beings made of fire and metal (refined ore), while Primordus' destroyers are non-living beings made of fire and unrefined ore. 

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Demons in guild wars are said to come from the mists as far as we are aware, but they are notably associated with Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies, the other "outcast" god beings that we know of

 

Abaddon was the one behind the whole Shiro shenanigans as well as the demonic Titans that the charr worshiped as gods

The demons merely had a pact with the "prime evils" of GW1, and it was technically Dhuum behind the Titans (on lease to Abaddon, mind you). Neither of these have any association with the deep sea dragon.

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

in Cantha we all know about "the deep" , this strange and unexplained "realm" that is deep under the jade sea featuring demons with an unknown origin lead by kanaxai that turn people mad that come into contact with them

The Deep isn't a realm. It's a cave, specifically one that is accessed via water that was closed over by the Jade Sea. There's no connection between the Nightmare Demon known as Kanaxai and Abaddon, outside of the very, very obscure connection of Kanaxai -> Cave in Jade Sea -> Jade Wind solidified Jade Sea trapping Kanaxai -> Jade Wind caused by Shiro absorbing Dwayna's magic -> Abaddon turning Shiro evil leading him to dark rituals that allowed him to absorb Dwayna's magic

And that's a very big stretch.

At present, there's no connection between the deep sea dragon (called such because it woke up in the deepest parts of the unending ocean - utterly separated from the landlocked Jade Sea).

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Abaddon and the deep sea dragon both have power over the domain of water, and both of them coincidentally are associated with secrets, with the information about them being seemingly almost erased from most written history

As established by yourself, the overlapping of domains is "pure coincidence" and not cause for relation between the gods and dragons. It's been firmly confirmed the two groups and their magic/domains are no relation.

The deep sea dragon's information hasn't been erased btw, it's just ArenaNet keeping the mystery for the sake of the mystery... for the players. Taimi and the Pact know about the deep sea dragon and even know its name but "conveniently forget" whenever they bring it up (again for the sake of keeping the players in the dark).

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Abaddon was seemingly much more powerful than any of the other human gods, with it taking the combined effort of 5 of them just to imprison him.

It isn't that it took the combined effort of 5 to imprison him, but rather that he ended up facing the combined effort of 5. He was only equal to 2 other gods, and as such would have been defeated with merely 3.

And it wasn't "just to imprison him" - Abaddon's very body was destroyed, and he was reforming a new body from the Realm of Torment. This is why he has tentacle hair and insectoid face features in GW1, because the Realm of Torment, born from mortals' nightmares, tend to feature insects and tenctacles.

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

i want to explore the idea that maybe Abaddon in some way interacted with the deep sea dragon, and potentially even may have been collaborating with them, siphoning some of their magic or was even himself corrupted by the deep sea dragon willingly or unwillingly, possibly even becoming its champion.

There's a lot of evidence that pretty firmly establish that divine magic cannot be consumed and corrupted by the Elder Dragons. In Season 2, we have the Divine Fire that wards off mordrem; in HoT (and Arah dungeon), we have Forgotten magic being immune, so much so that Exalted were created while being immune to dragon corruption; we have the Jackals in the Desolation, made from Abaddon's magic, which the djinn also use as protection against being Branded; and of course, we have Balthazar being front and center in front of Primordus and his legion of destroyers with no hindrance, and in front of Kralkatorrik with no hindrance.
The only time the Elder Dragons gain the ability to consume and corrupt divine magic, is when Balthazar's magic was released and ran rampant upon his death.

So the idea of Abaddon being corrupted by the deep sea dragon is pretty much impossible without retconning 9 years of lore (not that ArenaNet is above that *coughcannotkillanymoreElderDragonswithoutreplacementscough*).

As to the idea of Abaddon siphoning magic with the deep sea dragon: Why? Why the deep sea dragon instead of Zhaitan that Abaddon lived right on top of? Or Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, who were near surface level on the planet? Why go through the effort of going far, far away from his home just to track down an underwater dragon hibernating in the center of krait territory to drain its power?

And as for collaberating... DSD was asleep like the rest.

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

maybe Abaddons rebellion against the other gods about gifting magic had something to do with the intentions of the DSD

It's flimsingly plausible but very unlikely because of the whole "DSD was in hibernation at the time" issue.

18 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

maybe the reason Abaddon was so powerful was because of a secret association with the DSD

More likely his strength came from his primary domain - Knowledge - which according to human belief the gods are absolute in their personal domains (this could explain why Dhuum couldn't be killed, being absolutely powerful in matters of Death). This would mean Abaddon "had absolute knowledge" so to speak, and thus knew exactly how to counter the other gods.

But knowing how to counter != being strong enough to counter. And this would be why he could take down any other god in 1 on 1, while being on par in 2 on 1, but defeated in a 3 on 1. He simply wouldn't have been strong enough to make use of his knowledge.

And it should be noted that Abaddon was never said to be the strongest god.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Since its minions are described as eldritch horror type creatures I sincerely hope that we return to the horror themes that started IBS.

It should be noted that all dragon minions were described with the same "untellable horrors" that the DSD's minions get. Risen and branded especially got that description.

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I'm highly skeptical of the OP's theory, but like the other responses I also welcome a bit more dark horror elements, though I'm not 100% sure the current iteration of Anet can pull it off.  Not a lot that's come out about EoD has me very enthused.

To be fair, there's not a lot that came out about EoD.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:57 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be fair, there's not a lot that came out about EoD.

Enough has been released whereas I should have more than a queasy feeling in my gut whenever I think about EoD.  HoT and PoF were both guaranteed to get my money when they were in pre-release and I bought them at the earliest chance I had, but I've still not purchased EoD.

[ugrakarma.9416]

near all the Gw1 lore was about "evil things with Abaddon hand behind", it wasn't enough?

Edited October 19, 2021 by ugrakarma.9416

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 10/7/2021 at 6:55 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And it should be noted that Abaddon was never said to be the strongest god.

Depends on how we view strength in the godly context. Ability to create and destroy? Battle prowess and physicals? Or magical ability?

Pretty sure being the forerunner in knowledge goes hand-in-hand with magical prowess. But if we take Balthazar's claims at face value, it can be argued he's the most dangerous god in a haphazard battle - before his fall. I'd argue Abaddon was the most versatile one, based on presumed and recorded feats.

[Narcemus.1348]

I think that there's one way that I can see there being a correlation between the Elder Dragons and Abaddon. Assuming Abaddon had full access to all knowledge, he knew about Elder Dragons and how they work. This means that he could have learned how to absorb the ambient magical potential of the world or perhaps how to kill and absorb the magical potential of lesser beings. This later dealing with the beings (like Arachnia) in the realm of torment that are not entirely canon but have long been theorized to have been victims of Abaddon's pursuit of more power. This could also be another motivation for him having the magic in the Bloodstone released. That said, I do not see there being any direct connection between Abaddon and DSD. 

[dace.8019]

I really like the concept. Even a step further? Abaddon the God as a Champion of the DSD? As fun a notion as it all is, it's a huge stretch and a lot of retconning would be involved. However, it's easily retrofitted in because both are associated with secrecy... but it also seems a bit of a push to get any real value out of it now. Abaddon is dealt with. Bringing him back is a bit of a gamble. Still, for all the problems with it, I like the escalation of power it might represent for a finale to the Dragon stories of GW2.

Edited October 28, 2021 by dace.8019

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

I really like the concept. Even a step further? Abaddon the God as a Champion of the DSD? As fun a notion as it all is, it's a huge stretch and a lot of retconning would be involved. However, it's easily retrofitted in because both are associated with secrecy... but it also seems a bit of a push to get any real value out of it now. Abaddon is dealt with. Bringing him back is a bit of a gamble. Still, for all the problems with it, I like the escalation of power it might represent for a finale to the Dragon stories of GW2.

All evidence so far has shown that foreign magic is typically immune to consumption and corruption - and this is particularly true of divine magic, which even seems to be countering dragon corruption in some cases.

We have the Forgotten and Exalted magic, that Zhaitan and Mordremoth were unable to consume or corrupt in any way.

We have the Foefire, caused by Balthazar's swords, which burn risen well and are immune to branded/ing.

We have the Divine Fire from Season 2, that repels mordrem and killed the 'immortal' Shadow of the Dragon.

We have Balthazar's barriers he created in Draconis Mons, unaffected by the swarms of destroyers around them.

We have Jackals, formed from Abaddon's remnant magic, that the djinn used to provide protection against branding (though this protection became weakened when Kralkatorrik consumed Balthazar's released magic, creating the first scenario in which an Elder Dragon was able to counter divine magic).

 

So the chances of the Elder Dragons corrupting a full-fledged god - at least before the end of PoF - seems uncharacteristically unlikely and potentially retconny. Not to mention as you say, there's no real value out of doing this change - Abaddon is dead, and the only purpose it serves would be to escalate the fight with the DSD.

 

As for the escalation of power situation - I rather prefer not to go so far. We've yet to fight a full fledged god in their full might, and there's only so much further escalation you can get after that or an Elder Dragon literally tearing apart reality as we know it (IBS was a de-escalation for a reason, even if it was escalation beyond HoT's state - kind of funny to think that two Elder Dragons is more or less on par to escalation brought by fighting a former god).

 

And besides, logically it's entirely plausible for the DSD to be the strongest Elder Dragon by the sheer virtue of it having:

1. Consumed multiple Krait Obelisks, that are put on par to Bloodstones in Season 1.

2. Consumed the fallout magic from five dead Elder Dragons and one former god by now.

3. Been largely unaffected by armies fighting it, thus unlike Zhaitan would have no weakening to its forces, and unlike Jormag and Primordus wouldn't have had anyone draining it of power.

Unless 3 ends up happening in EoD, which would be an intentional de-escalation of the conflict for xyz reasons in the first place, meaning that making Abaddon the DSD's champion would be further unlikely since that would just be escalating after de-escalating (or vice versa).

Though given they did exactly that with the Scarab Plague by escalating the threat then de-escalating it by making only humans vulnerable (somehow) and lampshading the PC's plot armor (for some reason) to infection, I wouldn't put it past them doing so again.

[dace.8019]

I should have specified that the only aspect of Abaddon being involved (whether directly or more distantly) with the DSD that I like would involve both entities willingly sharing power. So, without one corrupting the other. For the reasons we have sort of both stated I doubt it's something we'll actually see but I like the hypthothetical, as cheesy as a God-Dragon showdown might be it's absolutely the sort of thing ArenaNet would go for. There's plenty of overlap in themes with some EDs and human gods but I concur with the OP that Abaddon and the DSD share more than the others at the superficial levels and I've often wondered if that's more intentional than we're led to believe... even if there's virtually no hard evidence to endorse it.

Edited October 29, 2021 by dace.8019

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

as cheesy as a God-Dragon showdown might be it's absolutely the sort of thing ArenaNet would go for.

Technically, we already had that showdown with Kralkatorrik, an Elder Dragon empowered by a (former) god's power. x)

6 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

 here's plenty of overlap in themes with some EDs and human gods but I concur with the OP that Abaddon and the DSD share more than the others at the superficial levels and I've often wondered if that's more intentional than we're led to believe... even if there's virtually no hard evidence to endorse it.

I don't see how people can argue that Abaddon and the DSD share the most overlap, when we know next to nothing about the DSD. The only overlap is "deep seas" and "tentacles", which barely associates properly with either one.

So far, it's honestly Grenth and Zhaitan that shares the most overlap. And that overlap actually caused a result of Zhaitan being unable to influence Grenth's strongest servants and magic as the statues of Grenth are the least corrupted things in Orr (aside from Forgotten relics).

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 10/28/2021 at 12:56 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And besides, logically it's entirely plausible for the DSD to be the strongest Elder Dragon by the sheer virtue of it having:

1. Consumed multiple Krait Obelisks, that are put on par to Bloodstones in Season 1.

2. Consumed the fallout magic from five dead Elder Dragons and one former god by now.

3. Been largely unaffected by armies fighting it, thus unlike Zhaitan would have no weakening to its forces, and unlike Jormag and Primordus wouldn't have had anyone draining it of power.

Unless 3 ends up happening in EoD, which would be an intentional de-escalation of the conflict for xyz reasons in the first place, meaning that making Abaddon the DSD's champion would be further unlikely since that would just be escalating after de-escalating (or vice versa).

Though given they did exactly that with the Scarab Plague by escalating the threat then de-escalating it by making only humans vulnerable (somehow) and lampshading the PC's plot armor (for some reason) to infection, I wouldn't put it past them doing so again.

the only thing against all this is if anet goes on "budget mode" again when creating this.

i have a small hope that this dont become a champions finalle.

[PseudoNewb.5468]

Tyrian magic seems to make the Elder Dragons go mad in a way, that way being called "torment" in the case of Kralkatorric. If there is any connection between Tyrian/Dragon magic and the human gods, I would be interested if the human gods could also be affected by this torment. The parallels between Abaddon and an Elder Dragon could be that torment manifested in them in similar ways.

 

Perhaps Abaddon's fall is triggered by his overzealously releasing and handling Tyrian magic from bloodstones. Perhaps he even took some of the magic for himself amplifying his own powers and accelerating a descent into madness that mirrors Elder Dragon behaviors. Balthazar loosing his divine magic, and ultimately replacing it with magic from bloodstones could also have severely altered Balthazar's mind, leading to the state of relentlessly destroyed the land to build an army for the single minded goal of consuming as much magic as possible.

 

I don't know much about Abaddon's death but from what I understood, Kormir took Abaddon's divinity and magic, but a portion of magic was also released. Perhaps Korrmir separated divine and Tyrian magic allowing her new form to be composed of divine magic, and rejecting excess Tyrian magic back into the world. She did this understanding the risks of torment, and spearheads the exodus and eventual departure of themselves from Tyria to protect themselves.

 

There isn't much to support my own thoughts, other than seeing two gods in a state of madness after using large quantities of Tyrian magic. Learning that the Elder Dragons, who have been stewards of Tyrian magic for far longer than even history knows, have been suffering from torment for longer than we have known them. And the fact that the gods forced themselves to leave Tyria and it's magic alone. I believe that the gods could be in fact be afraid of what Tyrian magic has done to them, and what it could do to them. But, if this is the case I couldn't explain why Kormir would be reluctant to reveal such information to the commander and Kasmeer. Not much evidence that these three points are related, but "Tyrian magic causes torment to immortal beings wielding it" is a theory that could fit all three points and provide a final way to tie the story of dragons and gods together while hopefully not breaking too much existing lore.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

15 minutes ago, PseudoNewb.5468 said:

Tyrian magic seems to make the Elder Dragons go mad in a way, that way being called "torment" in the case of Kralkatorric. If there is any connection between Tyrian/Dragon magic and the human gods, I would be interested if the human gods could also be affected by this torment. The parallels between Abaddon and an Elder Dragon could be that torment manifested in them in similar ways.

 

Perhaps Abaddon's fall is triggered by his overzealously releasing and handling Tyrian magic from bloodstones. Perhaps he even took some of the magic for himself amplifying his own powers and accelerating a descent into madness that mirrors Elder Dragon behaviors. Balthazar loosing his divine magic, and ultimately replacing it with magic from bloodstones could also have severely altered Balthazar's mind, leading to the state of relentlessly destroyed the land to build an army for the single minded goal of consuming as much magic as possible.

 

I don't know much about Abaddon's death but from what I understood, Kormir took Abaddon's divinity and magic, but a portion of magic was also released. Perhaps Korrmir separated divine and Tyrian magic allowing her new form to be composed of divine magic, and rejecting excess Tyrian magic back into the world. She did this understanding the risks of torment, and spearheads the exodus and eventual departure of themselves from Tyria to protect themselves.

 

There isn't much to support my own thoughts, other than seeing two gods in a state of madness after using large quantities of Tyrian magic. Learning that the Elder Dragons, who have been stewards of Tyrian magic for far longer than even history knows, have been suffering from torment for longer than we have known them. And the fact that the gods forced themselves to leave Tyria and it's magic alone. I believe that the gods could be in fact be afraid of what Tyrian magic has done to them, and what it could do to them. But, if this is the case I couldn't explain why Kormir would be reluctant to reveal such information to the commander and Kasmeer. Not much evidence that these three points are related, but "Tyrian magic causes torment to immortal beings wielding it" is a theory that could fit all three points and provide a final way to tie the story of dragons and gods together while hopefully not breaking too much existing lore.

I kinda like parts of this, particularly the possibility of finally trying to justify Balthazar's heel-face-turn.  Wouldn't it be something that his act of absorbing the broken Bloodstone's magic was done as much out of a desire to prevent the wholesale destruction of the continent (as was described by the different researchers notes in Bloodstone Fen) as it was to restore a portion of his former power....and it was the mental corruption that followed that finally caused him to lose that last bit of benevolence.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:21 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

the only thing against all this is if anet goes on "budget mode" again when creating this.

i have a small hope that this dont become a champions finalle.

Well, they certainly seem to be going the direction of "the DSD is the strongest Elder Dragon", but not by any virtue of it having gotten power boosts, based on the new Dragon Bash dialogue:

Local (female): Well, we did it, I guess. All the Elder Dragons have been...bashed.

Local (male): There's one more.

Local (female): Maybe.

Local (male): There is.

Local (female): What's it matter to you?

Local (male): Jormag, and the Sons, are gone, and that's a good thing.

Local (male): I just believe the stories, and that there is one more dragon...

Local (male): More powerful than all the others. Deep beneath the seas. Surrounded by tentacled beasts of terrible ferocity.

Local (male): "S."

Local (female): Okay, okay, I think you need to go talk to a shaman.

Local (male): No, no! I just find it interesting.

Though this gives the false interpretation that it's always been the strongest, when prior dev comments put it on par to the other Elder Dragons' natural state of power - e.g., on par to Mordremoth in HoT or Jormag/Primordus individually in IBS (Zhaitan was weakened while hibernating by the Six draining it of magic, so it was always weaker than the other five). But since waking, it would have gotten stronger and with the magic of the other five + Balthazar going into the world, so now it would be the strongest.

[Kayberz.5346]

Interesting side note on the topic of "torment", dragons, and magic.

 

I was watching some gw factions gameplay and i thought it was kind of interesting that the celestial dragon tahmu is supposed to represent atrocity, pain, and anquish.

 

Most likely purely coincidental and doesn't have any meaning past the old canthan story and symbolism but its kinda strange that its specifically a dragon that is used to represent agony which could be synonymous with torment.

 

I could see anet taking this little nugget of lore and possibly "expanding" on it to make it have a greater significance.