5th Oct Patch - Damage Reduction update

[Aedil.1296]

Hey guys, did any of you understand what exactly does this rework of damage reduction? 

I am a bit worried as that is basically what keeps me alive as tempest with ice aura 10% dmg reduction and protection higher cap at 40%... Is this a nerf or a buff of damage reduction? 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, Aedil.1296 said:

Hey guys, did any of you understand what exactly does this rework of damage reduction? 

I am a bit worried as that is basically what keeps me alive as tempest with ice aura 10% dmg reduction and protection higher cap at 40%... Is this a nerf or a buff of damage reduction? 

Its a nerf overall to damage reduction.

[Aedil.1296]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Its a nerf overall to damage reduction.

How surprising *rollseyes*

Thanks for letting me know. 

So we're squishier than ever now... 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Aedil.1296

[Emberheart.8426]

This does not affect the better tempest protection, as it does not use an additional damage reduction modifier. It only affects you if you stack multiple modifiers, giving you more diminishing returns the more you stack. If you only stack protection and frost aura, the difference is almost unnoticeable compared to before.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

This does not affect the better tempest protection, as it does not use an additional damage reduction modifier. It only affects you if you stack multiple modifiers, giving you more diminishing returns the more you stack. If you only stack protection and frost aura, the difference is almost unnoticeable compared to before.

This. So if you were using protection at 40% reduction and frost aura for a 50% damage reduction before, then after the patch it would be 46% damage reduction. It's a 4% increase in damage that you will be taking. If you were also using damage reduction food for another 10% before you would have 51.4% reduction now instead of 60%, so 8.6% more damage received than before.

[Aedil.1296]

Thank you all for explaining!

 

Still...I don't like this anyway xD

[lodjur.1284]

That's incorrect. You're taking 8.6% more of the original damage. But this is not the same as taking 8.6% more damage. Which gets more and more visible the higher you previously stacked it.  

 

Compared to before with a 40%+10%+10% setup you're taking 21.5% more damage. 

 

If a hit would hit you for 1000 without any modifiers

 

Then before the patch you would be taking 400 damage with those modifiers

 

After the patch you're taking 486 damage

 

486 is clearly more than 8.6% more damage taken than 400

 

If it was 8.6% more damage one would be taking 434(.4) damage

Edited October 7, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Aedil.1296]

Well then if the damage was 10k instead of 1k the difference for an ele would be 4860 instead of 4000. 

That 860 damage can easily be the difference from life and death for an ele, so yea, this is actually quite a big nerf for us.

What the hell am I talking about? I would rarely survive a 10k hit on Ele anyway 😄 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Aedil.1296

[lodjur.1284]

14 minutes ago, Aedil.1296 said:

Well then if the damage was 10k instead of 1k the difference for an ele would be 4860 instead of 4000. 

That 860 damage can easily be the difference from life and death for an ele, so yea, this is actually quite a big nerf for us.

What the hell am I talking about? I would rarely survive a 10k hit on Ele anyway 😄 

Ye

I just picked 1k as a convenient number to showcase the difference, ofc this works all the way down to very small hits (until rounding becomes relevant) all the way up to infinitively big hits, the relation between post and pre patch damage stays the same

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Aedil.1296 said:

Thank you all for explaining!

 

Still...I don't like this anyway xD

It will hurt more for an ele, but there were more durable classes that cheesing additive damage reductions to take 0 damage in certain contents. This blanket change is the easiest workable approach for them to address the issue. It would certainly behoove them to revisit things like Ele's Earth Magic traitline and Warrior's Defense traitline after this.

My advice would be to take more weakness and blinds than you did previously. While I know Earth itself is not the most optimal traitline, Stone Heart may give you some better value now through its crit negation.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

13 hours ago, Aedil.1296 said:

Hey guys, did any of you understand what exactly does this rework of damage reduction? 

I am a bit worried as that is basically what keeps me alive as tempest with ice aura 10% dmg reduction and protection higher cap at 40%

I'm not sure if anyone has previously confirmed that [frost aura + protection] stacked additively. If they already stacked multiplicatively then there is no change.

The patch states that "All effects that provide a percentage reduction to incoming damage have been standardized to stack multiplicatively", meaning that some effects were already multiplicative but others were additive. Unfortunately, they did not spell out which specific ones were changed from add to mult, which leaves us guessing in some cases. 

[Dadnir.5038]

17 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

The patch states that "All effects that provide a percentage reduction to incoming damage have been standardized to stack multiplicatively", meaning that some effects were already multiplicative but others were additive. Unfortunately, they did not spell out which specific ones were changed from add to mult, which leaves us guessing in some cases. 

That's the important point.

The standardization make it easier to calculate the damage reduction and prevent exploits like what was happening on revenant. All in all, the devs made a good move here even if it sting a bit as you accustom yourself to the new damage reduction.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

31 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

I'm not sure if anyone has previously confirmed that [frost aura + protection] stacked additively. If they already stacked multiplicatively then there is no change.

The patch states that "All effects that provide a percentage reduction to incoming damage have been standardized to stack multiplicatively", meaning that some effects were already multiplicative but others were additive. Unfortunately, they did not spell out which specific ones were changed from add to mult, which leaves us guessing in some cases. 

Reddit knows all: Immortal Revenant Builds Overview : Guildwars2 (reddit.com)

There is a google doc that goes through all the previously confirmed additive/multiplicative sources. Frost Aura and Protection prior to this were additive.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[lodjur.1284]

47 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's the important point.

The standardization make it easier to calculate the damage reduction and prevent exploits like what was happening on revenant. All in all, the devs made a good move here even if it sting a bit as you accustom yourself to the new damage reduction.

Conceptually I don't think anyone is disagreeing on it being a good change what me and some others think is bad is how it is a big nerf to certain builds traitline that weren't getting anywhere near 100%.

 

Had this change happened next balance patch together with reasonable balances I would've been very pleased with it. 

 

Now it very much begs the question, why release a half- finished change without any of the surrounding changes that should accompany it. Few months longer of the recent state wasn't by any means problematic

[Jski.6180]

Anet has now made the game UI more of a lye then any thing else with no real way of it telling you what going on till some one hits you and even then you will have no ideal if you have enofe def to deal with what going on unless you use a 3ed party program to tell you what going on. Anet has lost its mind and did something with out thinking it out and with out the major needed tools to make it "ok" for the player base to use.

[Stallic.2397]

This doesn't affect toughness at all right? I'm really unsure how the damage reduction works in combo with prot. Is there a difference after this update? 

[lodjur.1284]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:11 PM, Stallic.2397 said:

This doesn't affect toughness at all right? I'm really unsure how the damage reduction works in combo with prot. Is there a difference after this update? 

Toughness works the same.

Damage/toughness

Since toughness was always "multiplicative" it's the exact same as before

Things that say x% less damage taken is what got changed. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Almost all dmg reductions already worked that way before the patch. Except for some leftovers. 

Nothing changes for tempest here as it worked that way before anyway. 

 

[Zephyrus.9680]

If Reddit is to be trusted, most damage reduction including Protection, Frost Aura and Peppercorn were additive while some sources were multiplicative (like scrapper rune and weakness). From a balance perspective I can't think of any context where it makes sense to have additive damage reduction ever. 

 

The change to make it multiplicative will make it work like toughness. Essentially linear EHP value with no diminishing  returns. And no returns that increase to infinity like additive reduction. 

 

The damage reduction with additive 40%+10%+10% = 60%. So 400 received from a 1000 base damage hit. 

The damage reduction with multiplicative is 0.6*0.9*0.9 = 0.486;  48.6%. So 514 from a 1000 base damage hit. 

 

That's around 22% higher actual damage received (post-nerf) which illustrates how powerful and exploitable additive damage reduction is. Tempest will take a moderate hit if you stacked the above sources but in practice, Frost Aura has a low uptime so the effect won't be big. It seems several other classes were able to abuse this FAR more than tempest to exploitative degrees (invincible or nearly).

 

Keep in mind something like 90% DR is 10X (1000%) more Effective HP and effective healing (excluding condition damage) so this change is very positive for game balance. 

[lodjur.1284]

6 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Almost all dmg reductions already worked that way before the patch. Except for some leftovers. 

Nothing changes for tempest here as it worked that way before anyway. 

 

That's just incorrect. 

1 hour ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

If Reddit is to be trusted, most damage reduction including Protection, Frost Aura and Peppercorn were additive while some sources were multiplicative (like scrapper rune and weakness). From a balance perspective I can't think of any context where it makes sense to have additive damage reduction ever. 

The only context is having balanced around it before, long term changing to multi is better tho

1 hour ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

The change to make it multiplicative will make it work like toughness. Essentially linear EHP value with no diminishing  returns. And no returns that increase to infinity like additive reduction. 

 

The damage reduction with additive 40%+10%+10% = 60%. So 400 received from a 1000 base damage hit. 

The damage reduction with multiplicative is 0.6*0.9*0.9 = 0.486;  48.6%. So 514 from a 1000 base damage hit. 

 

That's around 22% higher actual damage received (post-nerf) which illustrates how powerful and exploitable additive damage reduction is. Tempest will take a moderate hit if you stacked the above sources but in practice, Frost Aura has a low uptime so the effect won't be big. It seems several other classes were able to abuse this FAR more than tempest to exploitative degrees (invincible or nearly).

Having Protection and using Earth traitline in melee with damage reduction food (while being outside of  Earth attunement and no Frost aura) is 20% more. That being the most common scenario. 

 

Imo from a WvW perspective tempest is the only class (and other Ele builds using earth) are the only ones that lose out significantly.

 

Something like full damage reducing herald was already not a thing. 

1 hour ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

Keep in mind something like 90% DR is 10X (1000%) more Effective HP and effective healing (excluding condition damage) so this change is very positive for game balance. 

Imo it could've been. What made it bad is adding it to a minor patch with 0 compensations to the biggest losers.

 

Had it been together with a rework of the earth traitline minors I would've been all for it. 

 

Now it just looks like they could've waited with this change until the next big balance patch. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Frost aura uptime is negligible and there really aren't any common builds that use earth for defense.  It's almost always the worst choice for any build in competitive modes and it's used in PvE by condi builds not for defense but for damage.  I don't see how this is a big nerf to ele at all.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

That's just incorrect. 

The only context is having balanced around it before, long term changing to multi is better tho

Having Protection and using Earth traitline in melee with damage reduction food (while being outside of  Earth attunement and no Frost aura) is 20% more. That being the most common scenario. 

 

Imo from a WvW perspective tempest is the only class (and other Ele builds using earth) are the only ones that lose out significantly.

 

Something like full damage reducing herald was already not a thing. 

Imo it could've been. What made it bad is adding it to a minor patch with 0 compensations to the biggest losers.

 

Had it been together with a rework of the earth traitline minors I would've been all for it. 

 

Now it just looks like they could've waited with this change until the next big balance patch. 

So you are telling me that they have to change this again? 

We already had that problem with the Wvw dmg reduction meta in early HoT, when Tempest was literally immortal thanks to dmg reduction stacking. 

Anet fixed this by making dmg reduction multiplicative. 

As it stacking was unintended. 

Somehow they are stacking again? 

 

 

[Jski.6180]

Sadly ele is the one class that gets effected by a nerf like this more then others in both self def and supportive effects. This is another ele nerf on-top of every update in the game being an ele nerf. Some how the very way of gw2 and anet updating gw2 will always come out to be an ele nerf. That is just how hatefully anet is to the ele class and ele players.

Beyond that point of view ppl are being apologist and looking for excuses for anet to act in such a way.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Zephyrus.9680]

12 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Having Protection and using Earth traitline in melee with damage reduction food (while being outside of  Earth attunement and no Frost aura) is 20% more. That being the most common scenario. 

It's almost certain Geomancer's training was already multiplicative because it's the same mechanic as scrapper runes. 

 

 

9 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

So you are telling me that they have to change this again? 

We already had that problem with the Wvw dmg reduction meta in early HoT, when Tempest was literally immortal thanks to dmg reduction stacking. 

Anet fixed this by making dmg reduction multiplicative. 

As it stacking was unintended. 

Somehow they are stacking again? 

Wondering about that too. I'm assuming the earth spec reductions were already multiplicative. Particularly since one of them uses the same mechanics as another confirmed multiplicative DR effect. 

 

6 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Sadly ele is the one class that gets effected by a nerf like this more then others

Certainly not for weaver and core ele. For tempest, considering 2 and probably 3 of the reduction skills were already multiplicative, that's unlikely and that's already assuming the ele is running earth spec at all. Looks to me like rev gets affected more than ele, even with two of the formerly additive 20% DR skills on rev being only 10% in PvP/WvW. Probably scourge too. Hopefully it makes the wvw boon balls a little less oppressive. 

 

There's also things like dolyak stance (Soulbeast) which was 33% DR and Rampage (warrior) which was 50% additive DR which could give temporary invincibility or near-invincibility to power damage before. 

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

It's almost certain Geomancer's training was already multiplicative because it's the same mechanic as scrapper runes. 

 

 

Wondering about that too. I'm assuming the earth spec reductions were already multiplicative. Particularly since one of them uses the same mechanics as another confirmed multiplicative DR effect. 

 

Certainly not for weaver and core ele. For tempest, considering 2 and probably 3 of the reduction skills were already multiplicative, that's unlikely and that's already assuming the ele is running earth spec at all. Looks to me like rev gets affected more than ele, even with two of the formerly additive 20% DR skills on rev being only 10% in PvP/WvW. Probably scourge too. Hopefully it makes the wvw boon balls a little less oppressive. 

 

There's also things like dolyak stance (Soulbeast) which was 33% DR and Rampage (warrior) which was 50% additive DR which could give temporary invincibility or near-invincibility to power damage before. 

It dose because ele is getting more def effects from adding more then one stacking effect. Ele depends on means of staying just alive from a hit to rebound its hp bar every DR drop is an massive hit to this ability.

Earth line got hit hard from this update was it realty broken before?