The Untamed - new ranger elite spec

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Substance E.4852 said:

Except not at all

Again, I'm not rehashing this ... the statement was with regards SPECIFICALLY to the espec, not a general Ranger discussion. We don't know how the espec is impacted by this general Ranger problem UNTIL WE PLAY IT. From the looks of it, this espec is actually attempting to take measures about that issue. The fact is that some people were just jumping to conclusions because anything 'pet' to them on a Ranger is a liability. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No goalposts were moved. The concern about hitting moving targets was based on other people watching a 20 second video. I called people out for that because they didn't have the details they needed to make those conclusions. Now those SAME people are 'excited' about the spec. If the things the espec has doesn't solve those problems ... you don't need to tell me because I don't care ... we STILL haven't played the spec. 

See, the thing you don't get is that in EITHER case, I was right. We need to play the spec to conclude things about it. 

You're saying mobility now, whereas before it was about AI. Goalposts moved. 

Those SAME people are still raising that issue, there's just OTHER issues to talk about now since we know all the skills and traits and guess what, none of them address the AI. 

There is no need to play it to see, because the problems with pets are not related to the spec, they are related to the class a a whole.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You're saying mobility now, whereas before it was about AI. Goalposts moved. 

That doesn't make sense. I was always talking about mobility and pathing (they are related BTW)  Sounds to me you are just misunderstanding what I was saying and telling me that's my fault. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

6 minutes ago, nerva.7940 said:

I wouldn't use the heal cantrip, and I'd just go double bear. 

So your solution to the new spec heal skill is just to not use it?

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, I'm not rehashing this ... the statement was with regards SPECIFICALLY to the espec, not a general Ranger discussion. We don't know how the espec is impacted by this general Ranger problem. From the looks of it, this espec is actually attempting to take measures about that issue. 

How do you not get this simple concept? The eSpec will SPECIFICALLY be affected by the pets poor pathing because IT HAS A PET. Not only that, but it puts more emphasis on the pet. 

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. I was always talking about mobility. Maybe for you the discussion was about AI. It wasn't for me.

How convenient.

Except you never mentioned mobility before, it was "movement behaviour" and "pet pathing".

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Except you never mentioned mobility before, it was "movement behaviour" and "pet pathing".

 This whole discussion started  by me replying to people complaining about pet's interacting with moving targets based on a lack of targets moving in the video. So ... 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

 This whole discussion started  by me replying to people complaining about pet's interacting with moving targets based on what the video showed. So ... 🤷‍♂️

Yes, that's how it started, but you progressed over time too. Neither video has shown moving targets, but you can see a little of the pathing at this point. It's the same. There is no reason to believe they will have rewritten pet pathing AI before the beta or release and by just this small clip, you can see it hasn't changed for the better currently. I really think if they were going to do that, they would have done it already and released it into the game for testing, since it is a core issue. Adding a shadow step does take a step in the right direction, but it is far from a fix, more of a band-aid.

And I don't get why they don't do something about it, it's a meme! Just run backwards and forwards with your Ranger, 3s each way and just watch the pet try and follow along. Just hold W and the left mouse button, then move the camera and right click to change direction. LOL

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Yes, that's how it started, but you progressed over time too. 

Yeah ... no I didn't. I was, is and still am talking about pet pathing and mobility (to me those aren't different things). 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 This whole discussion started  by me replying to people complaining about pet's interacting with moving targets based on a lack of targets moving in the video. So ... 🤷‍♂️

Since I'm included in the 'moving target' discussion, I will say that we still don't know if pets can hit moving targets.  Because the livestreams, as always, are against non-moving test golems.  

I refer to my personal first thoughts on the matter well before we had the livestream today:  

On 10/20/2021 at 2:41 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Valid concern, because the streams on Friday's they fight golems, which conveniently also don't move.  

 

Guess that'd be a bad PR look for the pet to go whiffing and waste all its wild energy, then get nuked by some random AoEs.  

So the only part that is incorrect is the 'wild energy' part; but no one could have known that'd be a simple swap without watching the livestream.  It was far more likely it would be like what thief got, an expendable energy source.  

Anyway, we DO know now that having a shadowstep will help with pathing issues (something engineer mains are about to find a lot out about).  Which is great, but not anything any ranger main would conclude logically from that reveal video.  

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

28 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. I was always talking about mobility and pathing (they are related BTW)  Sounds to me you are just misunderstanding what I was saying and telling me that's my fault. 

You edited this post to move the goal posts again lol.

[Lynx.9058]

Maybe this has been answered already but I'd appreciate someone directing me to such...

Will other weapons (non-hammer) have variants when unleashed/wild magic mode is active?  I like the general theme of this spec but I'm not a fan of the hammer for my ranger.  The hammer gaining alternate abilities when unleashed is cool, but if it's only for the hammer I won't bother.  I'm curious if we know anything about alternates for longbow/shortbow, daggers/swords, etc.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 minute ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Maybe this has been answered already but I'd appreciate someone directing me to such...

Will other weapons (non-hammer) have variants when unleashed/wild magic mode is active?  I like the general theme of this spec but I'm not a fan of the hammer for my ranger.  The hammer gaining alternate abilities when unleashed is cool, but if it's only for the hammer I won't bother.  I'm curious if we know anything about alternates for longbow/shortbow, daggers/swords, etc.

That will be very interesting to see. I personally think that will be the case, but we shall see. I said I thought we'd get skill swapping on the hammer with pet swap or similar and that seems to be the case, but for them to go and make a new skill for every other weapon skill seems like a bit much work. Perhaps there will be other minor skill effects they could add easily. Fingers crossed.

[Ehecatl.9172]

2 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Maybe this has been answered already but I'd appreciate someone directing me to such...

Will other weapons (non-hammer) have variants when unleashed/wild magic mode is active?  I like the general theme of this spec but I'm not a fan of the hammer for my ranger.  The hammer gaining alternate abilities when unleashed is cool, but if it's only for the hammer I won't bother.  I'm curious if we know anything about alternates for longbow/shortbow, daggers/swords, etc.

 

None unfortunately, though he did say it is something they considered and are still considering. So it isn't totally impossible but as of now fairly unlikely.

[Lynx.9058]

Just now, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

None unfortunately, though he did say it is something they considered and are still considering. So it isn't totally impossible but as of now fairly unlikely.

well that's disappointing.  I hate being locked into one weapon.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You edited this post to move the goal posts again lol.

Actually, it was edited it to be more clear because I understood you were not making the connection between mobility and pathing ... not sure how you don't but since the original intent and context is still there, no goalposts were moved. Seems to me you just don't understand me and are just looking for differences to argue pedantic points. To be fair to me, it's almost necessary to be crystal clear to you and make these changes. Still appears to not be to helpful enough though. 

I mean, believe what you like. My point still stands EVEN NOW that we still haven't played the spec. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Maybe this has been answered already but I'd appreciate someone directing me to such...

Will other weapons (non-hammer) have variants when unleashed/wild magic mode is active?  I like the general theme of this spec but I'm not a fan of the hammer for my ranger.  The hammer gaining alternate abilities when unleashed is cool, but if it's only for the hammer I won't bother.  I'm curious if we know anything about alternates for longbow/shortbow, daggers/swords, etc.

 

At the moment, no.  You can find this confirmation towards the end of the livestream where Aquafina dev is doing 'deep dive' rambling. 

Essentially the devs thought about this, but then realized it'd lead to too much power creep if not handled carefully, as it is a second skillbar for every weapon, and that's something no other class really has access to. 

So I just took it as be thankful we still have a weapon swap and they didn't just lock us to hammer.  Who knows, may still happen two years in as a 'tradeoff'! 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Lynx.9058]

Just now, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

as it is a second skillbar for every weapon, and that's something no other class really has access to. 

I mean, all they'd have to do is remove weapon swap from this spec, like they do for others (elementalist/engineer/bladesworn).

[Ehecatl.9172]

5 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

well that's disappointing.  I hate being locked into one weapon.

 

At least we still have weapon swap. And while hammer is most in-tune with the spec's mechanic it isn't strictly necessary to use the mechanic, it just benefits the most from it.

 

Longbow or Greatsword getting 15% more damage while Unleashed is still a decent buff, and I could see Longbow benefitting a fair bit from an Unleashed pet in the enemy's face while the ranger sits back and looses arrows at the target.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Ehecatl.9172

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, it was edited it to be more clear because I understood you were not making the connection between mobility and pathing ... not sure how you don't but since the original intent and context is still there, no goalposts were moved. Seems to me you just don't understand me and are just looking for differences to argue pedantic points. To be fair to me, it's almost necessary to be crystal clear to you and make these changes. Still appears to not be to helpful enough though. 

I mean, believe what you like. My point still stands EVEN NOW that we still haven't played the spec. 

You should probably go back and edit all the other posts you made where you didn't mention mobility then. Just to be helpful.

Mobility is the speed and freedom with which you can move to your target and pathing is the route you take to get there. Pathing is controlled by AI. Mobility is controlled by skills, traits, runes and boons. Pretty different stuff. 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

16 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

I mean, all they'd have to do is remove weapon swap from this spec, like they do for others (elementalist/engineer/bladesworn).

Dude, Ele can have like 45 skills on their bar. Engi can have up to 39 I think. Bladesworn even with no weapon swapping can have up to 24. An Untamed can get 26, 10 of which share a CD. There is zero need to be asking for 5 of those to be removed.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582
added "10 of which share CD"

[Ausar.9542]

so does the unleashed skill only change Hammer and no other weapon?

[Ehecatl.9172]

13 minutes ago, Ausar.9542 said:

so does the unleashed skill only change Hammer and no other weapon?

 

It only changes your hammer skills, but it also gives a 15% boost to damage and 10% boost to incoming damage, so it still effects all our damage dealing moves. Just not as dramatically as it does hammer.

 

It will also change your pet's skills no matter what weapon you have equipped.

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

9 minutes ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

It will also change your pet's skills no matter what weapon you have equipped.

Slightly tangential but while I'm still really excited about this spec, I am slightly disappointed that all pets get the same 3 skills when Unleashed. I was kinda hoping they'd use the pet types they added when releasing Soulbeast (Versatile, Deadly, etc.) and have different unleashed abilities for each of those categories.

 

tbh I'd much rather they did that than add extra mode swap attacks to the other ranger weapons but I don't think they're going to wind up doing either.

[Ehecatl.9172]

1 minute ago, Inventrix.3158 said:

Slightly tangential but while I'm still really excited about this spec, I am slightly disappointed that all pets get the same 3 skills when Unleashed. I was kinda hoping they'd use the pet types they added when releasing Soulbeast (Versatile, Deadly, etc.) and have different unleashed abilities for each of those categories.

 

tbh I'd much rather they did that than add extra mode swap attacks to the other ranger weapons but I don't think they're going to wind up doing either.

 

Yah, I understand that complaint. Though I also understand why. Even just using the archetypes that'd be 15 new skills on top of the hammer's 10 new skills and the utilities to design. And while they aren't NEW having direct control of the old pet skills does add more toys to play with for each pet species all the same.

 

Plus this way does have an advantage in that you don't need to weigh the effectiveness of two different sets of pet skills per pet choice. You also don't need to worry about situations like the fire wyvern being a Deadly pet and getting condi skills even though its main toolkit is chiefly power oriented. Or marsh drake getting support skills even though nothing about its main skillset is meant for support. Or whole archetypes being less appealing because their abilities aren't useful.

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

19 minutes ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

Yah, I understand that complaint. Though I also understand why. Even just using the archetypes that'd be 15 new skills on top of the hammer's 10 new skills and the utilities to design. And while they aren't NEW having direct control of the old pet skills does add more toys to play with for each pet species all the same.

 

Plus this way does have an advantage in that you don't need to weigh the effectiveness of two different sets of pet skills per pet choice. You also don't need to worry about situations like the fire wyvern being a Deadly pet and getting condi skills even though its main toolkit is chiefly power oriented. Or marsh drake getting support skills even though nothing about its main skillset is meant for support. Or whole archetypes being less appealing because their abilities aren't useful.

Yeah absolutely, that's why I'm only very slightly disappointed. It's like, "oh, this delicious cake would be even better if there was some ice cream with it" lmao. It's mostly that, if they were going to go and make a whole bunch of new skills, I'd rather they be for the pet archetypes than our weapons.

Although while I'm talking hypotheticals, mixing the archetypes with the pet's own strengths wouldn't bother me so much, since as it stands, all pets are getting condi abilities for primal mode, regardless of whether it suits their stats. It would just be mix-and-matching to a slightly larger extent.

I still think it would be fun, but yeah, it almost definitely won't happen, for perfectly good reasons. xD

[Za Shaloc.3908]

1 hour ago, Inventrix.3158 said:

Slightly tangential but while I'm still really excited about this spec, I am slightly disappointed that all pets get the same 3 skills when Unleashed. I was kinda hoping they'd use the pet types they added when releasing Soulbeast (Versatile, Deadly, etc.) and have different unleashed abilities for each of those categories.

 

tbh I'd much rather they did that than add extra mode swap attacks to the other ranger weapons but I don't think they're going to wind up doing either.

 

Yeah that is my feeling too. The spec doesn't look bad to me by any means and there are parts of it that I think are kinda cool, but it does feel disappointing to have the same 3 untamed pet skills regardless of pet. Obviously making 3 unique skills per pet or family would be too much, but it would be a perfect opportunity to make it archetype-specific. It would make it feel more customizable and increase build and role diversity which IMO would be a huge plus to the e-spec.