The Virtuoso in comparison to the other Elite Specs (Discussion)

[mortrialus.3062]

Dagger needs work to actually get it viable as a ranged option, the 2 skill needs to just be good at any range.  It needs a way to keep targets away while also having a good answer for when enemies get in range like other better ranged kits have like ranger longbow and deadeye rifle.  Faster projectiles across the board are a must.

The spec just doesn't feel like it offers anything new.  One of the things that made soulbeast exciting inspite of it just taking away pet was all the insane combos that were unleashed because soulbeast applied bonuses the pet would get to the ranger. And then all sorts of crazy builds like Boonbeast and Sic Em Sniper that took people a bit of time to figure out compared to scourge, spellbreaker, and holo that were op out the gate.

Compared to other specs like Mechanist and Spector those are both so strongly themed and add so much new angles those professions, and in many respects the game itself, has never seen before.

Virtuoso doesn't offer more conventional new angles.  Like it could have reveal on it, or lots of chill to keep people away, or super speed, or unlockable.

I also feel like while I wanted cloneless mesmer, I primarily wanted a throwback to GW1 mesmer with heavy heavy control and sabotage beyond just disorienting people with clones.  Virtuoso feels like it removes absolutely all aspects of control and sabotage from mesmer with little to show for it.  That sabotage aspect is what makes mesmer, mesmer clones or not.

Edited October 25, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Genesis.5169]

On 10/23/2021 at 1:31 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Comparisons between classes or especs isn't relevant when the existence of a class or new espec introduction isn't about equivalent profession performance in the first place. 

I'm not sure anyone likes to play a class thats inferior by default there is a reason why you see no mesmers past g3 in ranked (spvp).

Edited October 25, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I'm not sure anyone likes to play a class thats inferior by default there is a reason why you see no mesmers past g3 in ranked (spvp).

I'm certain no one likes to play a class that's inferior by default either. That's why we have all these choices on the many classes we have to choose from in the first place. It's funny you acknowledge people don't like to play classes they don't like ... but then ignore the fact that we have class and espec choice to address that. 

Don't assume that Virtuoso should be the superior default for whatever game mode you choose to use it in. Lots of especs are not ideal for every game mode. If Virtuoso is not ideal in PvP or WvW, that's not a problem. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Genesis.5169]

25 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm certain no one likes to play a class that's inferior by default either. That's why we have all these choices on the many classes we have to choose from in the first place. It's funny you acknowledge people don't like to play classes they don't like ... but then ignore the fact that we have class and espec choice to address that. 

Don't assume that Virtuoso should be the superior default for whatever game mode you choose to use it in. Lots of especs are not ideal for every game mode. If Virtuoso is not ideal in PvP or WvW, that's not a problem. 

Nobody plays mesmers anywhere LMAO ironically the best place for mesmer right now is pvp even tho they are the worse class there. I'm not sure where your getting your news from but mesmers have been kitten on in every game mode but OW and if you think them pink portals and going pew pew in OW is something lemme tell you you can do open world naked with one weapon.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Nobody plays mesmers anywhere LMAO 

No, that's wrong. Being sensational is not a compelling reason for change. 

[OriOri.8724]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:33 AM, Reteiel.7063 said:

What are the chances the rumours of mesmer rework are true and virt is just a placeholder spec? Everything including the weapon just seems uninspired and it doesn't really even do a good job of being a simpler spec since you have to deal with all the issues core mesmer has.

The lack of depth is what sticks out to me the most, at least from what we have seen so far. Without any room to experiment and adapt to different situations, pressing the same couple of buttons over and over again will get boring fast.

 

0? Anet wouldn't go through that much effort to do the skills and traits and effects to have it be a placeholder. That's such a weird assumption to make

[Caid.4932]

Its been a while so memory is hazy. It seemed a relatively straightforward damage spec with no obvious alternative uses. Which is fine, probably desirable with the other classes available, a ranged damage spec is fairly welcome overall.
It needed a fair bit of tuning, i guess im a bit more laid back about it because more or less every other elite spec needs more, some a lot more and the changes needed aren't too complicated (is flagging an attack as a projectile difficult to program?).

Edited October 25, 2021 by Caid.4932

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's wrong. Being sensational is not a compelling reason for change. 

So as a mesmer with 2k+ spvp games played g3 right now, LNHB and various raid titles. There are no mesmers around outside of myself in all of those groups. T4 fractals? No mesmers. Spvp? None in any ranks that matter? Wvw? Nope none there. Raids nope even minstrel isnt needed much anymore feel free to ask me to show proof i'm more then willing to flex but you are wrong.

Mesmers are absolutely trash tier right now your doing us no service actually your hurting us more then any other player right now i expect more from mesmer players but perhaps your not one maybe you just moonlight.

Man i really dislike people who do this really play another class see how much life is better in everything you do there is a reason why mesmers aren't played you do 2x more effort for 80% of the things people do.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Infusion.7149]

Chrono is still run in PVE and WVW...
Where are you getting the idea they are obsolete other than in fractals (due to exposed)?
https://lucky-noobs.com/teamcompositions

It's still very strong on Twin Largos (due to movement , torment isn't as good as confusion), Soulless Horror , Matthias (for reflect), Conjured Amalgamate (due to pull for swords) , Keep Construct (far higher CC than cQB), etc.

Support chrono is part of WVW meta
https://gw2mists.com/builds


 

PVP mirage

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

There are no mesmers around outside of myself in all of those groups. T4 fractals? No mesmers. Spvp? None in any ranks that matter? Wvw? Nope none there. Raids nope even minstrel isnt needed much anymore feel free to ask me to show proof i'm more then willing to flex but you are wrong.

 

There is that sensational talk again ... YUP ... it's all YOU ... the LAST MESMER! 🤣

 

 Where you think there are mesmers or not is irrelevant. Anet can actually measure where Mesmers are and where they aren't, so we will trust their data before your ... whatever that is. 

If Mesmers aren't where Anet wants them in the numbers they want them to be in ... we know they will change the class to improve that with the process they use to do it. I get that it's super popular to replace data with 'feelings' and think it's a clever way to trick Anet into ignoring their data to make changes on things we don't like. 

I mean, I'm flattered you think I'm THAT influential in influencing Anet to have such an impact on Mesmer to the degree you say ... but that doesn't make sense. I'm just not that important. I think what's really going on here is that even though you are loathe to admit it, you know what I'm saying is not too far from reality.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

11 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I'm not sure anyone likes to play a class thats inferior by default there is a reason why you see no mesmers past g3 in ranked (spvp).

That is just a straight up lie. There are quite a few plat mesmer mains. 

[Puck.3697]

in all honesty.. im still hoping we're simply seeing the new elites closer and closer to complete rather then the later just outclassing the prior as in The amount of development they've reached before seeing them the new 3 look sooo good compared to the last 3 and the last 3 looked better then the first 3..

im hoping we see the First 3 as Complete looking as the final 3 its just unfortunately we saw them earlier in development so its just a visible thing currently thats its suspected to be the case rather then the final beta prove the case.

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is that sensational talk again ... YUP ... it's all YOU ... the LAST MESMER! 🤣

 

 Where you think there are mesmers or not is irrelevant. Anet can actually measure where Mesmers are and where they aren't, so we will trust their data before your ... whatever that is. 

If Mesmers aren't where Anet wants them in the numbers they want them to be in ... we know they will change the class to improve that with the process they use to do it. I get that it's super popular to replace data with 'feelings' and think it's a clever way to trick Anet into ignoring their data to make changes on things we don't like. 

I mean, I'm flattered you think I'm THAT influential in influencing Anet to have such an impact on Mesmer to the degree you say ... but that doesn't make sense. I'm just not that important. I think what's really going on here is that even though you are loathe to admit it, you know what I'm saying is not too far from reality.

Definitely not the last mesmer i quit the class i just meme on it on unranked. And you are important you all are and we all need be on the same page as to how crap the class is.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Salt Mode.3780]

22 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Definitely not the last mesmer i quit the class i just meme on it on unranked. And you are important you all are and we all need be on the same page as to how crap the class is.

Hey ANET needs to hire some PR or white knights to defend their poor choice making. Just like the big balance patch that reduced all CC to do zero dmg or passive traits that are 300 seconds, years later and they are still the same. 

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Definitely not the last mesmer i quit the class i just meme on it on unranked. And you are important you all are and we all need be on the same page as to how crap the class is.

We don't need to be, it will work itself out naturally because if it's crap and no one plays it, the numbers fall below what Anet finds acceptable, they will do something about that. If it doesn't play how they want , they will do something about that. 

You did the right thing actually ... if the class doesn't work how you like, choose something else. If enough people do that, there will be changes. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[desu.2514]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We don't need to be, it will work itself out naturally because if it's crap and no one plays it, the numbers fall below what Anet finds acceptable, they will do something about that. If it doesn't play how they want , they will do something about that. 

You did the right thing actually ... if the class doesn't work how you like, choose something else. If enough people do that, there will be changes. 

so your grand solution is to just ignore an issue and let it manifest defeating the actual objective of beta, FYI that is to bring these issues to light and solve them before release. instead of raise the issue so they can solve it before release?

 

as for WVW yes there is a chrono spec for it. and it exists solely for gravity well, and temporal curtain, sometimes veil. everything else from any spec of mesmer is categorically useless when compared to other classes in wvw and to even get value you are hard required to have other players carry the strips to actually enable you to use those skill's.

 

the real sad part is it never used to be so bad, you could do decent damage previously, you had traits that allowed build diversity and was impactful when played well aka mistrust was exceptional when in the right hands, CI was exceptional in the right hands, lots of previous builds that have all been removed or nerfed to oblivion. so much so your usually hard pressed to even actually procure the conditions required to activate your own traits.

 

honestly speaking, yes your argument is damaging to a beta because you offer absolutely no reasoning, theory, or proof to any point other than "its fine" "it will work out". its fine or it will work out is not feedback, feedback is X seem strong but Y seems weak because of Z etc etc. now when you compare the two which reply can devs make use of to improve the games quality? "erm? its ok" or "the actual feedback"

 

because it seems to me your white knighting a position contradictory to when anet wants and needs. they released a beta to get feedback and identify the good and bad on their current iterations of classes, NOT to have derpina get hissy troll posting people in the feedback topics doing exactly what they want, aka giving feedback with varying levels of logic and reason

 

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We don't need to be, it will work itself out naturally because if it's crap and no one plays it, the numbers fall below what Anet finds acceptable, they will do something about that. If it doesn't play how they want , they will do something about that. 

You did the right thing actually ... if the class doesn't work how you like, choose something else. If enough people do that, there will be changes. 

they wont do anything and they dont care.
as I said somewhere before, after over 2 years of fractals, I am yet to see an elementalist, I have only seen one.
I probably made/played on ~250-300 teams, so thats 1 elementalist out of 1500 classes, so less then 0,1% play-rate
Where are ele fixes?
I dont see any thieves either, maybe 5-6 of them in total, where are their improvements to make them desirable ?
Its all the amazing trio necro, rev, guard, always, everywhere.

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

they wont do anything and they dont care.
as I said somewhere before, after over 2 years of fractals, I am yet to see an elementalist, I have only seen one.
I probably made/played on ~250-300 teams, so thats 1 elementalist out of 1500 classes, so less then 0,1% play-rate
Where are ele fixes?

There is no accounting for believing what you want to believe here. If you don't believe what I'm telling you or what Anet says in the patch notes, then I guess you can convince yourself of anything. 

[Obtena.7952]

32 minutes ago, desu.2514 said:

so your grand solution is to just ignore an issue and let it manifest defeating the actual objective of beta, FYI that is to bring these issues to light and solve them before release. instead of raise the issue so they can solve it before release?

... and I guess your grand solution is just to say anything that fits your narrative and complain until you get what you like? OK ... seems that one way is MUCH more effective than the other. You be you I guess. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is no accounting for believing what you want to believe here. If you don't believe what I'm telling you or what Anet says in the patch notes, then I guess you can convince yourself of anything. 

Belief is for fools. Give me facts, and if you give me opinions base them on facts.
Here is MY opinion, devs might leave virtuoso in the trash, simply because they have done it before, they are doing it now, and I see no evidence of them stopping now.
But you keep to your beliefs, I will keep my facts and logic, thank you very much.

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Belief is for fools. Give me facts, and if you give me opinions base them on facts.
Here is MY opinion, devs might leave virtuoso in the trash, simply because they have done it before, they are doing it now, and I see no evidence of them stopping now.
But you keep to your beliefs, I will keep my facts and logic, thank you very much.

Well, we have facts that Anet changes classes, based on how people play them and based on how Anet wants the class to work. We see that in the patch notes. That's not a belief based on faith. That's just being able to read. 

I believe your opinion ... because Anet doesn't likely have enough data to convince themselves the class doesn't work how they want it to or that players won't adopt it in an amount that Anet will be happy with. It won't be until they have that we will see changes IF the data suggests they are needed. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[desu.2514]

40 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

... and I guess your grand solution is just to say anything that fits your narrative and complain until you get what you like? OK ... seems that one way is MUCH more effective than the other. You be you I guess. 

and saying anet is asking for feedback is my narrative? or anets? remind me what just went live, oh yea the beta for more spec tests

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, desu.2514 said:

and saying anet is asking for feedback is my narrative? or anets? remind me what just went live, oh yea the beta for more spec tests

I don't know ... I didn't make that claim. What I do know is that there is good and bad feedback ... and it looks pretty easy at this point to filter out the bad stuff. I mean, if you think it's good feedback just to say how trash the spec is, then you deserve the changes you get ... or DON'T.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[desu.2514]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't know ... I didn't make that claim. What I do know is that there is good and bad feedback ... and it looks pretty easy at this point to filter out the bad stuff. 

i see you read your own posts then 🙉

[Leonidrex.5649]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, we have facts that Anet changes classes, based on how people play them and based on how Anet wants the class to work. We see that in the patch notes. That's not a belief based on faith. That's just being able to read. 

What with ele then? why is it still dog kitten after at least 2 years?
What about firebrand, I vividly remember having 3-4 FB comps 2 years ago, and we still have them now in fractals.
In pvp we have 4-5 necros in each game for the past 2 years too, not much change huh?
Why does one class get to be played in every single fractal team to the point it has something stupid like 50% representation while another has 0,1%. FOR 2 YEARS.
Point me to a patch where they at least tried to fix ele? Last thing I remember was a nerf lol.
And fb? they go out of their way with ners to make sure they remain OP as kitten, I know. I play one.