Elite skills should start on CD (as you enter combat)

[lodjur.1284]

Would be an improvement to all scales of WvW and fix quite a few problems. Would also make the CD on elite skills matter more.

Edited October 27, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Cyninja.2954]

Start on cooldown from where/when? Spawn into the map? Respawn after death? What exactly are you basing you decision on?

What prevents players to then just wait out the cooldown before entering unsafe areas of a map, thus just extending the time to fight artificially?

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[lodjur.1284]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

Start on cooldown from where/when? Spawn into the map? Respawn after death? What exactly are you basing you decision on?

What prevents players to then just wait out the cooldown before entering unsafe areas of a map, thus just extending the time to fight artificially?

As you enter combat, thought that part was fairly obvious.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

As you enter combat, thought that part was fairly obvious.

It was?
So what happens with cds when someone leaves combat shortly for exmaple? Does it reset to its full timer? What about classes which have a very easy time to to dictate combat uptime on others?

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[lodjur.1284]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

It was?

Well if it wasn't I changed the thread title to make it so.

[Dawdler.8521]

This isnt really how elites was designed. I dont see exactly how this will improve anything except making things even more unbalanced since some classes will still easily be able to use their elites multiple times while others wont ever be able to use it.

Also it doesnt take into account going OOC and back again. Thief can easily troll high cd classes by simply going OOC and reset the enemy elite cd before it even went off cd once, while they run a low cd elite themselves, lol.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[lodjur.1284]

15 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This isnt really how elites was designed. I dont see exactly how this will improve anything except making things even more unbalanced since some classes will still easily be able to use their elites multiple times while others wont ever be able to use it.

It fixes 

People having a huge impact even if they're not good enough to stay alive more than 3 seconds just by dropping ghastly/winds

Stealth bombing entirely

Effective suiciding on enemy siege

How focused around Wind/Ghastly more or less every fight becomes

Various sorta "cheap" attempts at instagibbing before a fight starts

 

It also lowers the amount of CC in the game by a lot

Encourages actually staying alive and in a fight

Shakes up the meta for a lot of situations
It would change gameplay to put less emphasis on the start

It would change it to make it so that numbers matter less compared to skill

15 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Also it doesnt take into account going OOC and back again. Thief can easily troll high cd classes by simply going OOC and reset the enemy elite cd before it even went off cd once, while they run a low cd elite themselves, lol.

What class is dependant on a high cd elite in a 1v1 situation?

There's very few elite skills that have a short enough cd to try to create that situation, it would simply not be any different from now.

[Cyninja.2954]

39 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

It fixes 

No it doesn't.

Quote

People having a huge impact even if they're not good enough to stay alive more than 3 seconds just by dropping ghastly/winds

Yes, because elite skills are the big impact skills in todays game. Riiight.

Quote

Stealth bombing entirely

No it doesn't. If you are referring to engi gyro, that would be available given those are often used OUTSIDE or PRE engage (and the ones used mid engage would be available by the time they need to be used).

This does NOTHING to prevent regular stealth blasting, most of which is done WITHOUT engi gyro in competent groups.

Please name all those Elite skills which have a major impact in big scale WvW which are pulled within the first 10-20s.

Quote

Effective suiciding on enemy siege

What?

Quote

How focused around Wind/Ghastly more or less every fight becomes

Various sorta "cheap" attempts at instagibbing before a fight starts

To be replaced by pre fight cooldown baiting of the enemy group. Not more fun.

Quote

It also lowers the amount of CC in the game by a lot

Name all those CC elite skills please.

Quote

Encourages actually staying alive and in a fight

Winning and rewards already do enough of an encouragement I'd say.

Quote

Shakes up the meta for a lot of situations

Really? Which exactly?

Quote

It would change gameplay to put less emphasis on the start

Again, which elite skills do you see used in the initial 10-20s of an engage so much? Which composition size? Besides maybe WoD which is literally the only elite which comes to mind atm which one would use in combat due to likely getting put in combat while engage the enemy.

Quote

It would change it to make it so that numbers matter less compared to skill

No. That assumption is idiotic.

Quote

What class is dependant on a high cd elite in a 1v1 situation?

That's not the question or issue. Which class has short cooldown elites is more relevant.

Classes which can continually pressure others, mostly related to movement as well as engage/disengage favor, are heavily advantaged here. Not to mention making this far less fun.

Quote

There's very few elite skills that have a short enough cd to try to create that situation, it would simply not be any different from now.

If it's not that different from now, there is no reason to change it.

You are incorrect tough, it would be greatly different to now, not because of how big fights would end up, but rather the abuse around such change without massive rebalance being done.

This feels like an idea aimed at roaming or small scale at most, while completely ignoring large scale fights.

It's just a bad idea (or not very thought out one). Just chuck it off as such and move on, or actually put in some serious thought as to WHICH issues arise and how those could be solved, without just assuming everything will work out.

EDIT:

and just some food for thought:

this change is not simply flipping the current design around (you can't just go:"Well if we had elites on cooldown instead of ready, that just turning things around, no biggy huehuehue"). That would only be the case if currently all elite skill were made ready on fight start (aka combat entry), which is obviously not the case (and would also cause serious issues. Imagine a mobile class constantly reentering combat to get their elite back up).

Making elites go on cooldown on fight start (which is what I was getting at earlier when asking how this would be achieved because a fight start is not synonymous with combat start, but in this scenario is treated as such) is actually an entire new variable/mechanic which gets introduced in terms of readying or un-readying up a skill.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

No.

Reason: Elite Signets.

If you want overpowered elite skills reigned in, then tailor the specific skills rather than doing a stupid blanket 🐶💩 nerf.

[lodjur.1284]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No it doesn't.

Yes it does

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, because elite skills are the big impact skills in todays game. Riiight.

Ye ghastly breach, winds of disenchantment and gravity well have no impact

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No it doesn't. If you are referring to engi gyro, that would be available given those are often used OUTSIDE or PRE engage (and the ones used mid engage would be available by the time they need to be used).

It's typically paired with Winds/Ghastly/Grav Well (and other elite CD skills)

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This does NOTHING to prevent regular stealth blasting, most of which is done WITHOUT engi gyro in competent groups.

It prevents the stealth+elite bombing, the stealth is what sets up the elites

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Please name all those Elite skills which have a major impact in big scale WvW which are pulled within the first 10-20s.

Winds

Ghastly
Gravity Well

Lich (tho obviously not really a thing in zerging but outside)

Given those are essentially the only elites that really impact fights

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

What?

Do you even play WvW if you don't have this happen to you on a everyday basis?

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

To be replaced by pre fight cooldown baiting of the enemy group. Not more fun.

So you think that combat would become

Wait 90 sec for Winds/Ghastly

Engage with Winds/Ghastly hoping your enemies doesn't have Winds/Ghastly

 

This would at least give the enemy team the option to engage before you can elite skill bomb

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Name all those CC elite skills please.

Gravity Well

Winds of Disenchantment (it's not CC, but it sure is used to CC-lock)

Ghastly Breach (see winds)

If you wanna get further into the less common ones you have 

Tornado

Rampage

Entangle
Moa

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Winning and rewards already do enough of an encouragement I'd say.

Putting a larger emphasis on actively participating in a fight for more than 5 sec is good though

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Really? Which exactly?

Large scale fights are centered around it

Outnumbered fights are centered around it

To a lesser degree even numbered small scale fights (like 4v4) are centered around it

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Again, which elite skills do you see used in the initial 10-20s of an engage so much? Which composition size? Besides maybe WoD which is literally the only elite which comes to mind atm which one would use in combat due to likely getting put in combat while engage the enemy.

WoD and Ghastly are the ones I primarily have in mind. 

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No. That assumption is idiotic.

Let's take a common-ish scenario, me and a few people are fighting a larger group

 

Scourge #183198 rushes in, drops ghastly, hits f1-f5, dies 3 seconds later. He still had a huge impact on the fight.

 

With this change, he wouldn't be able to ghastly, would die in 3 sec, have barely any impact. However an enemy scourge that can actually stay alive for 75 sec will provide a similar impact to before, by having played better their relative impact is increased.

 

This isn't some edge case scenario, this is something that happens multiple times in a majority of fights.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's not the question or issue. Which class has short cooldown elites is more relevant.

Well there is very few short cd elite skills (to me short cd is sub 30 sec)

Sub 30 sec elite skills in WvW I can think of are

Mantra of Liberation

Feel my Wrath

Headbutt

All the core rev elite skills+Kalla

Mortar Kit

 

It's a pretty short list.

 

There's a few signet elites also which could be relevant to discuss how to handle the best way.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Classes which can continually pressure others, mostly related to movement as well as engage/disengage favor, are heavily advantaged here.

They already are, having to wait to gain access to your elite changes nothing.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If it's not that different from now, there is no reason to change it.

Practice reading comprehension before calling someone an idiot

 

It would be very much the same in 1v1 or w/e, just make the very low end players on some classes die faster in fights they would already lose

 

It would be very different in 

4v4

4v12

12v12

12 v blob

blob v blob

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are incorrect tough, it would be greatly different to now, not because of how big fights would end up, but rather the abuse around such change without massive rebalance being done.

Idk, you paint up these abuse scenarios, where you somehow manage to put your enemies elite skills on CD without putting your own on CD, which doesn't really seem plausible.

 

Guess I found someone who can't survive 75 sec in most fights.

[lodjur.1284]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No.

Reason: Elite Signets.

If you want overpowered elite skills reigned in, then tailor the specific skills rather than doing a stupid blanket 🐶💩 nerf.

This fixes the root issue of the extremely common and in relation to skill too effective gameplay pattern of

 

Run in 

Drop Elite

Die

 

I would love for elites like Winds/Ghastly/Grav Well to not exist, but that's even going even further, however we didn't get any new busted elite that promotes that (except maybe Shadowfall) so who knows

 

Signets I would personally say should give their passive benefit but not be possible to activate until their cd is up

[Xenash.1245]

Couldn't people still run in to drop their elite and die though, since they'd just have to start casting before entering combat. I'm honestly a bit confused about the scenario here.

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Yes it does

Ye ghastly breach, winds of disenchantment and gravity well have no impact

Breach is not a first 10-20s skill unless you get pushed and not sure how many mesmers your server runs, but on mine there are maybe 1-2 per 50 squad. Oh and with the range on GW, it can be placed easily out of combat.

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

It prevents the stealth+elite bombing, the stealth is what sets up the elites

If you are wasting your breach on a stealth engage, you are beyond incompetent.

 

I mean just the thought that you would place a melee range elite when you have the first bomb and corrupt advantage, wow.

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Winds

Ghastly
Gravity Well

Lich (tho obviously not really a thing in zerging but outside)

Again, from all those only WoD would be affected.

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Given those are essentially the only elites that really impact fights

Do you even play WvW if you don't have this happen to you on a everyday basis?

So you think that combat would become

Wait 90 sec for Winds/Ghastly

Engage with Winds/Ghastly hoping your enemies doesn't have Winds/Ghastly

I don't engage with ghastly because I don't run with pleb comps. There are few situations where ghastly should be used in the first 20s of a fhight, and most of those are NOT when one engaged but rather gets engaged on.

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

This would at least give the enemy team the option to engage before you can elite skill bomb

Gravity Well

Winds of Disenchantment (it's not CC, but it sure is used to CC-lock)

Ghastly Breach (see winds)

If you wanna get further into the less common ones you have 

Tornado

Rampage

Entangle
Moa

GW can be palced ooc with its range.

WoD I already agreed that it would be the only affected.

Tornado might be vaible if melee pushing if your squad can't find enough scrappers and has to use eles.

Ramapge in 50v50? That's more a 20v20 or below skill/class.

Moa... lol what?

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Scourge #183198 rushes in, drops ghastly, hits f1-f5, dies 3 seconds later. He still had a huge impact on the fight.

I thought we are being serious here...

 

How does this differ from a thief bringing the front line in combat constantly to trigger their cd over and over though?

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

With this change, he wouldn't be able to ghastly, would die in 3 sec, have barely any impact. However an enemy scourge that can actually stay alive for 75 sec will provide a similar impact to before, by having played better their relative impact is increased.

No sxcourge should ghastly that early to begin with, except if engaged upon, which is the moment you should be using this skill.

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Sub 30 sec elite skills in WvW I can think of are

Mantra of Liberation

Can be circumvented with SYG and Tome3. Charge would be up fast enough

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Feel my Wrath

I have not seen this skill in WvW ever since FB was added.

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Headbutt

Are we talking WvW or PvE now? What are you going on about? Even a berserker would take Battle Standard over this...

Just now, lodjur.1284 said:

Mortar Kit

Mortar Kit has no cooldown to go on. How does this change?

 

Going to skip the rest, not sure you are really aware what you are talking about?

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Xenash.1245 said:

Couldn't people still run in to drop their elite and die though, since they'd just have to start casting before entering combat. I'm honestly a bit confused about the scenario here.

Psssht, tHiS iS g00d idea. Don't ruin it.... /s

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

Just now, Xenash.1245 said:

Couldn't people still run in to drop their elite and die though, since they'd just have to start casting before entering combat. I'm honestly a bit confused about the scenario here.

This was my exact thought, many elites have CDs far, far longer than most fights, both small scale and ZvZ, since it's going to go full CD once you get into combat this would result in everyone spamming their elite skills on engagement, because, why not? You would be punished for not doing this in the form of full CD anyway, so you might as well get SOMETHING out of it by just spamming it.

[lodjur.1284]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Breach is not a first 10-20s skill unless you get pushed and not sure how many mesmers your server runs, but on mine there are maybe 1-2 per 50 squad. Oh and with the range on GW, it can be placed easily out of combat.

I dont join zergs. No idea what "my server" w/e that "my server" means runs.

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If you are wasting your breach on a stealth engage, you are beyond incompetent.

 

I mean just the thought that you would place a melee range elite when you have the first bomb and corrupt advantage, wow.

Again, from all those only WoD would be affected.

I don't engage with ghastly because I don't run with pleb comps. There are few situations where ghastly should be used in the first 20s of a fhight, and most of those are NOT when one engaged but rather gets engaged on.

GW can be palced ooc with its range.

WoD I already agreed that it would be the only affected.

Tornado might be vaible if melee pushing if your squad can't find enough scrappers and has to use eles.

Ramapge in 50v50? That's more a 20v20 or below skill/class.

Moa... lol what?

Ye, there's stuff beyond blobbing, idk if you know this. For anything below the 50v50 scale it's quite noticeabl

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I thought we are being serious here...

This happens usually more than once/fight. But idk maybe if you only are in map blobs you don't really notice things?

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

How does this differ from a thief bringing the front line in combat constantly to trigger their cd over and over though?

No sxcourge should ghastly that early to begin with, except if engaged upon, which is the moment you should be using this skill.

Can be circumvented with SYG and Tome3. Charge would be up fast enough

I have not seen this skill in WvW ever since FB was added.

Core support "should" use it. 

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Are we talking WvW or PvE now? What are you going on about? Even a berserker would take Battle Standard over this...

Mortar Kit has no cooldown to go on. How does this change?

 

Going to skip the rest, not sure you are really aware what you are talking about?

You said and I quote you now 

"That's not the question or issue. Which class has short cooldown elites is more relevant."

You brought it up. I simply listed what elite skills are actually short CD.

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Psssht, tHiS iS g00d idea. Don't ruin it.... /s

You seem very angry, does the description of a scourge running in and dropping elite and dying 3 sec later hit a bit close to home?

7 minutes ago, TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

This was my exact thought, many elites have CDs far, far longer than most fights, both small scale and ZvZ, since it's going to go full CD once you get into combat this would result in everyone spamming their elite skills on engagement, because, why not? You would be punished for not doing this in the form of full CD anyway, so you might as well get SOMETHING out of it by just spamming it.

Also ye maybe they should be out of combat outside too, or entering combat should clear them similar to how swapping template clears stuff like previously placed traps.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

I dont join zergs. No idea what "my server" w/e that "my server" means runs.

Ye, there's stuff beyond blobbing, idk if you know this. For anything below the 50v50 scale it's quite noticeabl

This happens usually more than once/fight. But idk maybe if you only are in map blobs you don't really notice things?

Core support "should" use it. 

You said and I quote you now 

"That's not the question or issue. Which class has short cooldown elites is more relevant."

You brought it up. I simply listed what elite skills are actually short CD.

You seem very angry, does the description of a scourge running in and dropping elite and dying 3 sec later hit a bit close to home?

Not at all. Took 1 reading of your idea to realize how much thought went into it. Just took a while to make you realize it yourself.

I play every type of content this mode offers from blob v blob to roaming to in the past (not currently) GvG. Hence why I said your idea seems aimed at low scale fights and was asking which content this idea was aimed at.

Quote

Also ye maybe they should be out of combat outside too, or entering combat should clear them similar to how swapping template clears stuff like previously placed traps.

ah, now we are slowly getting to the "let's think about this some more" phase where we try to find solutions for the newly created problems.

Once you find a solution to the dilemma which your idea brings up, the difference between engage and actual combat start (where the game places you in combat), which is the entire new variable which needs considering and balanceing around, maybe your idea can be discussed.

That currently is being dealt with NOT having it affect cooldowns (but rather let cooldowns be cooldowns, which means sometimes they are up and sometimes they are not up when engaging without micromanaging this aspect).

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

1 minute ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Also ye maybe they should be out of combat outside too, or entering combat should clear them similar to how swapping template clears stuff like previously placed traps.

I don't see how that is going to work, as many are ranged and the elite itself is what would be putting you in combat, at that point it has been cast and triggered, even still, just the animation of some elites would impact a fight as it could result in the other player/group to burn utility/dodge/mobility etc etc to avoid this elite because they have no idea it's an OOC elite. What you are really asking for is elites to be locked and the count down to only start on combat which would only be usable if the fight lasted long enough resulting in a large number of skills to NEVER be used due to the long CD and would result in people only ever slotting short CD elites that have little impact. This could also be abused as well, as a roamer or even in groups, just aggro an NPC to get you in combat to start the CD and wait for someone, you start the fight with your elite off CD and they have no idea.

[Infusion.7149]

Let's roll with this idea...
How would you even program this given some elite skills don't have a target and are non-combat related?
Why would Arenanet even consider this idea?

(in case it isn't obvious, I don't think it's remotely a good idea)

Some examples of skills that are elite:

• Stealth Gyro
• Mass Invisibility
• Mantra of Liberation
• Winds of Disenchantment
• Battle Standard
• Entangle
• One Wolf Pack
• Mortar Kit
• "Rebound!"
• Weave Self
• Conjure Fiery Greatsword
• Ghastly Breach
• Signet of Courage
• Dragon's Maw
• Daggerstorm
• Basilisk Venom
• Shadow Meld
• Jaunt
• Facet of Chaos
• Soulcleave Summit

If your problem is precasting with skill swaps there's a way easier solution, which is to deliver on the promise that equipment and build templates are only swappable out of combat in the waypoint / keep.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[lodjur.1284]

20 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Let's roll with this idea...
How would you even program this given some elite skills don't have a target and are non-combat related?
Why would Arenanet even consider this idea?

(in case it isn't obvious, I don't think it's remotely a good idea)

Some examples of skills that are elite:

• Stealth Gyro
• Mantra of Liberation
• Winds of Disenchantment
• Battle Standard
• Entangle
• One Wolf Pack
• Mortar Kit
• "Rebound!"
• Weave Self
• Conjure Fiery Greatsword
• Ghastly Breach
• Signet of Courage
• Dragon's Maw
• Daggerstorm
• Basilisk Venom
• Shadow Meld
• Jaunt
• Facet of Chaos
• Soulcleave Summit

If your problem is precasting with skill swaps there's a way easier solution, which is to deliver on the promise that equipment and build templates are only swappable out of combat in the waypoint / keep.

All elite skills are combat-related

 

They all either have an immediate and/or lingering effect.

 

The majority have linger effects, such as the field from ghastly breach, the venom from basilisk etc, these are the effect that should be cleared upon entering combat. To a degree this is already done many places in PvE.

55 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not at all. Took 1 reading of your idea to realize how much thought went into it. Just took a while to make you realize it yourself.

Make me realize what? That there would be some small and easy to fix issues, ye I guessed that myself too, few things are without issues.

55 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I play every type of content this mode offers from blob v blob to roaming to in the past (not currently) GvG. Hence why I said your idea seems aimed at low scale fights and was asking which content this idea was aimed at.

Primarily anything below 20v20 is where it would make the biggest positive impact. Beyond that a single person's elite skill has no impact anyway. It would change the flow of larger fights quite a bit too though, which I kept in mind.

55 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

ah, now we are slowly getting to the "let's think about this some more" phase where we try to find solutions for the newly created problems.

Once you find a solution to the dilemma which your idea brings up, the difference between engage and actual combat start (where the game places you in combat), which is the entire new variable which needs considering and balanceing around, maybe your idea can be discussed.

Nice word sallad.

 

There already is a system in place, if you use Sneak Gyro and then swap it for example, you lose the sneak gyro effect already. You don't lose any other effects.

 

That's once again the kinda thing I assume the reader would've assumed. I guess overestimating the reader is a reoccurring problem for me. 

 

To make it really simple

1. Enter combat

2. Elite skill gets put on full CD

3. Any fields or buffs created by your elite skill previously gets cleared, the exact same way as if you had swapped your elite skill

 

Signets are the more interesting thing as putting them on CD but keeping the passive would make them more powerful relative to other types of elite skills. I personally think that's probably okay given the signets we have (and will get) in the game.

 

It does leave Mass Invisibility and Sneak Gyro still useable as engage tools. They are already frequently used for that and it does make them weaker engage tools. 

 

Battle Standard could still somewhat be used to engage, but given that it requires a specific situation to have any impact and one would need to be entirely outside of combat waiting for that situation to arise (with the risk of getting hit by random skill thrown around) and needing to make it close enough without getting hit and before it's no longer relevant, I can't see it being a common "strategy". As well as the punishment of playing with battle standard at all with these changes. 

[Neva Eilhart.5347]

I guess to get to the bottom of this, let's just get rid of Elites all together and only keep spamming goold ol' #1.

[Cyninja.2954]

19 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

All elite skills are combat-related

 

They all either have an immediate and/or lingering effect.

 

The majority have linger effects, such as the field from ghastly breach, the venom from basilisk etc, these are the effect that should be cleared upon entering combat. To a degree this is already done many places in PvE.

That's a great oversimplification there Sherlock. Doesn't actually address the issue.

Quote

Make me realize what? That there would be some small and easy to fix issues, ye I guessed that myself too, few things are without issues.

If you think this is done with some easy fixes, you have a very limited grasp of how this change would interact with this games combat design.

Quote

Primarily anything below 20v20 is where it would make the biggest positive impact. Beyond that a single person's elite skill has no impact anyway. It would change the flow of larger fights quite a bit too though, which I kept in mind.

and yet here I've seen a single proper MoL save 3-4 people on first engage, which resulted in one side having less downs on first engage, which in turn meant the commander had to commit less while exploiting the other sides weaker position.

1 Persons elite might not often have a big impact, but it can decide entire blob fights.

Quote

Nice word sallad.

 

There already is a system in place, if you use Sneak Gyro and then swap it for example, you lose the sneak gyro effect already. You don't lose any other effects.

So we are now talking about a system which keeps track of which source for stealth was used? That's what you are saying here. You lose the sneak gyro effect, but you do not lose the stealth already on you. Notice that you can be placed in combat WITHOUT actually getting revealed, say via supporting a player in combat.

Quote

That's once again the kinda thing I assume the reader would've assumed. I guess overestimating the reader is a reoccurring problem for me. 

Not sure the readers are the ones being overestimated here.

Quote

 

To make it really simple

1. Enter combat

2. Elite skill gets put on full CD

3. Any fields or buffs created by your elite skill previously gets cleared, the exact same way as if you had swapped your elite skill

Okay, what about a player temporarily leaving combat? Then reentering combat? As often happens in smaller scale fights and even larger scale fights when one blob is trying to disengage to regroup. Does the elite go on full cooldown every single time? Does the game keep track of something here?

What about if one side is placed in combat by a guard, keeps that guard alive to get their elite ready, then engages an opponent which did not have that chance?

What about elites which have no cooldown

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Signets are the more interesting thing as putting them on CD but keeping the passive would make them more powerful relative to other types of elite skills. I personally think that's probably okay given the signets we have (and will get) in the game.

Which leads us to what was stated earlier: players will take weaker/worse elites to accommodate for this change in turn requiring further balance. What about classes without elite signet access?

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It does leave Mass Invisibility and Sneak Gyro still useable as engage tools. They are already frequently used for that and it does make them weaker engage tools. 

Both skills are not affected ata all by this change, the defending side though is because they lose both their elites and with them an effective way to maybe disengage. Not having Breach, MoL or even WoD up as defensive tools means you are even more a sitting duck and disadvantaged against an attacker than now.

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Battle Standard could still somewhat be used to engage, but given that it requires a specific situation to have any impact and one would need to be entirely outside of combat waiting for that situation to arise (with the risk of getting hit by random skill thrown around) and needing to make it close enough without getting hit and before it's no longer relevant, I can't see it being a common "strategy". As well as the punishment of playing with battle standard at all with these changes. 

Do players which get finished by Battle Standard get resurrected then? Given it can be thrown outside of combat.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[lodjur.1284]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's a great oversimplification there Sherlock. Doesn't actually address the issue.

You mean there are elite skills that don't have an immediate or lingering effect, but still are relevant?

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If you think this is done with some easy fixes, you have a very limited grasp of how this change would interact with this games combat design.

Didn't you earlier say that elites aren't very impactful...

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and yet here I've seen a single proper MoL save 3-4 people on first engage, which resulted in one side having less downs on first engage, which in turn meant the commander had to commit less while exploiting the other sides weaker position.

Ye sure.

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

1 Persons elite might not often have a big impact, but it can decide entire blob fights.

If you think so, then why did you earlier say they weren't impactful.

Also in that case isn't it better for a blob fight to be decided by someone who has been in it, fighting and surviving for 1 min+ to decide it than some random person running by on a warclaw, jumping in and pressing winds at a lucky moment? 

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So we are now talking about a system which keeps track of which source for stealth was used? That's what you are saying here. You lose the sneak gyro effect, but you do not lose the stealth already on you. Notice that you can be placed in combat WITHOUT actually getting revealed, say via supporting a player in combat.

That would be ideal, but if the "abuse" case here is getting a few seconds of stealth at the start of a fight which one can't even use to actually bomb properly, then that seems like a rather benign one. It wouldn't need very complicated checks anyway

(I do think supporting players should probably clear stealth anyway, but this is not the thread for that particular discussion.) 

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not sure the readers are the ones being overestimated here.

Apparently so, I figured anyone would assume that a system change would come with other minor changes to accommodate it. That's (perhaps not so) common sense. 

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Okay, what about a player temporarily leaving combat? Then reentering combat? As often happens in smaller scale fights and even larger scale fights when one blob is trying to disengage to regroup. Does the elite go on full cooldown every single time? Does the game keep track of something here?

If you leave combat you get full CD. 

Leaving combat midfight should not be encouraged...

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

What about if one side is placed in combat by a guard, keeps that guard alive to get their elite ready, then engages an opponent which did not have that chance?

Ye there's situations where one can work around the system. 

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

What about elites which have no cooldown

Which leads us to what was stated earlier: players will take weaker/worse elites to accommodate for this change in turn requiring further balance. What about classes without elite signet access?

It's a balance change. People might pick up different elites based on a balance change. Naturally one would expect to see less people playing scourge for example. 

 

The current state of the game isn't perfectly balanced, so saying that this would lead to some skills being relatively stronger to current ones would only be relevant if it would buff skills that are already overperforming.

 

We got changed Retail/Resistance, that changed balance too. 

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Both skills are not affected ata all by this change, the defending side though is because they lose both their elites and with them an effective way to maybe disengage. Not having Breach, MoL or even WoD up as defensive tools means you are even more a sitting duck and disadvantaged against an attacker than now.

Do players which get finished by Battle Standard get resurrected then? Given it can be thrown outside of combat.

I literally address how this would be an outlier. in the part you quoted.

I guess adding "Combat Only" to the actual effects also work, there's more than 1 trait like that, so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. In fact that would be another way to fix any kinda precasting of any elite. There exists a multitude of solutions though, which one would be the best one is another question though.

[ASP.8093]

Winds of Disenchantment is one of the few things keeping the zerg meta from going full pirate ship.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

6 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Would be an improvement to all scales of WvW and fix quite a few problems. Would also make the CD on elite skills matter more.

This isnt ESO where elite skills make the entire spec. Gw2 elite skills have a wide variety of applications and strengths. Take mortar kit for example - whats the point in putting it on cd once u enter combat? Or revenant dwarf elite.. it doesnt even have a cd.