Thoughts on the Untamed from a Ranger with 2K hours of experience

[Puck.3697]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:52 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Oh you do? Because Anet has a history of buffing whole weapon DPS by 80%? That's ... interesting, especially considering the DPS performance of comparable weapons already in the game. But yes, definitely don't do anything like use the history of the game to guide your thoughts. 

Given the fact we never have had open beta and it was closed throughout I don't think we had much history on how much stronger speccs have gotten between beta and launch. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Substance E.4852 said:

Path of Scars:
-Damage has been increased by 85% when not traited.

Whirling Defense:
-The damage per strike has been increased by 100%.
-Increased damage by 15%.
-Increased damage by 15%.

Hold on .. those are SKILLS. Those are NOT whole weapon DPS. Let's not move the goalposts. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Given the fact we never have had open beta and it was closed throughout I don't think we had much history on how much stronger speccs have gotten between beta and launch. 

 

That's fair so here is another question. How likely do you think Anet is going to buff Untamed hammer (the WHOLE weapon) by 80% given the history of the game, even without having had an open beta before?

[Substance E.4852]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on .. those are SKILLS. Those are NOT whole weapon DPS. Let's not move the goalposts. 

I can move the goalposts where ever you'd like and you'd still be wrong

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's fair so here is another question. How likely do you think Anet is going to buff Untamed hammer (the WHOLE weapon) by 80% given the history of the game, even without having had an open beta before?

Depends realistically if theyre gonna seriously try force it into PvE meta.... If they're smart they won't. But you never know.. selling the elites is a good chunk of the hype surrounding expansions realistically. 

[Obtena.7952]

44 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Depends realistically if theyre gonna seriously try force it into PvE meta.... If they're smart they won't. But you never know.. selling the elites is a good chunk of the hype surrounding expansions realistically. 

There are better ways to force the PVE meta than doing something as absurd as buffing Hammer DPS 80% more. Not even sure if that would be enough to be honest. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Substance E.4852 said:

I can move the goalposts where ever you'd like and you'd still be wrong

Well, no, my comment was related to the comment someone made about buffing the whole weapon DPS another 80%. The examples you provided aren't weapons, they are skills, so they aren't relevant to the comment I made. So how do your irrelevant examples to my point that Anet has never buffed a weapon to 80% more DPS make me wrong about that? 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There are better ways to force the PVE meta than doing something as absurd as buffing Hammer DPS 80% more. Not even sure if that would be enough to be honest

Well yeah ofcourse there is. But yeah untameds never gonna be a PvE specc. It's a cc specc that depends on CCing to do damage.

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 10/30/2021 at 6:50 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

It is part of the poor impression I have of this whole batch of elite. It's like they didn't think things through and added half finished features as an afterthought. From my point of view it's very frustrating, It feel like there is a need to discard some features and focus on what's essential (in case of the Untamed, discarding the hammer 2nd skillset and polishing the control over the pet seem like the way to go for me).

Pretty much in full agreement with this. Several of the sepcs are trying to do too much, Untamed, Vindicator and Catalyst are possibly the worst for this. Frankly the the unleashed hammer skills are boring, they lose CC in exchange for power it should already have. This means the CC set is pre-nerfed to compensate for the damage set. It makes no sense to be juggling the modes, especially since they already have a shared cooldown. The cooldown GM simply fails to compensate for this.

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Well yeah ofcourse there is. But yeah untameds never gonna be a PvE specc. It's a cc specc that depends on CCing to do damage.

There is truth there. Playing Untamed for PVE would require people to do the opposite of how the spec is intended to be played. Camping Ranger Unleashed, not using hammer, loading up on CC pets and restricting yourself to specific traits, just to get a performance that is similar to Soulbeast. That's really the problem ... Soulbeast does Untamed version of PVE better than Untamed does. Soulbeast gives similar benefits for disabling and DPS bonuses as Untamed, doesn't change the pet flavour while Stances are better suited for PVE and also has the quickness feature going for it. One really has to go out of their way to make Untamed work in PVE. 

Unfortunately, some very hopeful people disagree and think dumping 80% more DPS on the hammer turns Untamed into a great PVE spec. Pretty absurd. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is truth there. Playing Untamed for PVE would require people to do the opposite of how the spec is intended to be played. Camping Ranger Unleashed, not using hammer, loading up on CC pets and restricting yourself to specific traits, just to get a performance that is similar to Soulbeast. That's really the problem ... Soulbeast does Untamed version of PVE better than Untamed does. Soulbeast gives similar benefits for disabling and DPS bonuses as Untamed, doesn't change the pet flavour while Stances are better suited for PVE and also has the quickness feature going for it. One really has to go out of their way to make Untamed work in PVE. 

Unfortunately, some very hopeful people disagree and think dumping 80% more DPS on the hammer turns Untamed into a great PVE spec. Pretty absurd. 

Pretty much, people want it but I'm ngl untamed would be really boring in PvE. The only fun element of the specc is realistically it stun / CC combos with the pet. 

Honestly making this a PvE specc would quite litterally be playing core ranger realistically. 

CC is a very boring utility in PvE as it basically has 0 need. So the idea of forcing untamed in its current iteration to be PvE meta is basically suicide. No one would enjoy it. 

[Substance E.4852]

On 11/10/2021 at 2:40 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, no, my comment was related to the comment someone made about buffing the whole weapon DPS another 80%. The examples you provided aren't weapons, they are skills, so they aren't relevant to the comment I made. So how do your irrelevant examples to my point that Anet has never buffed a weapon to 80% more DPS make me wrong about that? 

Are you really going to pretend they meant the actual, equipable weapon and not the weapon's skills?

Is that where we're really at with this?

[Obtena.7952]

27 minutes ago, Substance E.4852 said:

Are you really going to pretend they meant the actual, equipable weapon and not the weapon's skills?

Is that where we're really at with this?

Listen, what do you think someone means when they say "buff hammer DPS by 80% and call it a day" ... does that indicate one or two skills to you? Maybe misinterpreting what people say seems reasonable to you? It doesn't to me.

I get it ... you want to argue with me ... maybe pick something where I'm less obviously correct next time. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:52 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Oh you do? Because Anet has a history of buffing whole weapon DPS by 80%? That's ... interesting, especially considering the DPS performance of comparable weapons already in the game. But yes, definitely don't do anything like use the history of the game to guide your thoughts. 

Ranger Longbow is a weapon that has been buffed by at least 80%. There are many other examples. I already mentioned Necro Axe. I think if you go through the skill histories, you will find a whole lot of things have been increased by at least 50%.

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Ranger Longbow is a weapon that has been buffed by at least 80%. There are many other examples. I already mentioned Necro Axe. 

No, Ranger Lbow DPS has NOT been buffed by at least 80% and neither has Necro Axe. Even individual skills on these weapons have NEVER been buffed 80%. You know why I know?  because I just checked the skill history on the Wiki ... just like you suggested I should.  Maybe it would be prudent of you to do your own checks before taking me to task here because it gets a little silly for me to do your fact checking for you when you want to use those facts to argue with me. 

See, I have no doubt that even if you did check, you wouldn't find such a case because the idea anything in this game was so bad that "just buffing a weapon 80% DPS and calling it a day" was an effective way to fix that thing is absurd ... which is my point in the first place. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Substance E.4852]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Listen, what do you think someone means when they say "buff hammer DPS by 80% and call it a day" ... does that indicate one or two skills to you?

lmao I don't care

You asked for a whole weapon and I provided one
 

On 11/10/2021 at 2:40 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, no, my comment was related to the comment someone made about buffing the whole weapon DPS another 80%.

Simple as

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, Ranger Lbow DPS has NOT been buffed by at least 80% and neither has Necro Axe. Even individual skills on these weapons have NEVER been buffed 80%. You know why I know?  because I just checked the skill history on the Wiki ... just like you suggested I should.  Maybe it would be prudent of you to do your own checks before taking me to task here because it gets a little silly for me to do your fact checking for you when you want to use those facts to argue with me. 

See, I have no doubt that even if you did check, you wouldn't find such a case because the idea anything in this game was so bad that "just buffing a weapon 80% DPS and calling it a day" was an effective way to fix that thing is absurd ... which is my point in the first place. 

What's this talk of individual skills? The skills make up the weapon. 

Maybe you can go back and do some calculations or testing because LB DPS has most definitely been buffed by 80% or more.

Do you remember how you used to just be able to side step the arrows because they were too slow, meaning you did zero dps? The 30% then 15%, then 100% increase to velocity fixed that.

Remember how LRS used to be 1.25s with a 0.5s aftercast and it was reduced to 0.75s/0.25s? Or how the lowest coefficient on it was 0.5?

Remember how Rapid Fire used to have a 5s channel and did less damage than autoattacking and did not apply vulnerability? That's over a 100% increase there.

Remember how Barrage used to be a 30s recharge and had a much lower power coefficient as well as a longer channel and had a 50% smaller area of effect? 

The increase to velocity alone would account for an 80% increase in competitive modes, if not more like 500%.

Necro Axe is the same. 

Are you are looking at just power coefficients or are you taking literally every other aspect that has been buffed about all these skills, like the cast times and after cast delay reductions into account too? Because if you did, you would see there are many weapons and skills that have had their DPS buffed by 80% or more.

But whatever, you'll probably just try to argue semantics now as usual.

[Obtena.7952]

On 11/13/2021 at 1:24 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Do you remember how you used to just be able to side step the arrows because they were too slow, meaning you did zero dps? The 30% then 15%, then 100% increase to velocity fixed that.

No, velocity increasing is not a weapon DPS increase. The potential DPS of the weapon doesn't change, it simply makes the projectiles more likely to hit their targets. If you hit and how much you hit for are two different things. I mean ... did the velocity increase give you more damage on targets you COULD already hit? No it didn't. That's not semantics either ... that's just understanding how the game works. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

On 11/13/2021 at 12:39 AM, Substance E.4852 said:

You asked for a whole weapon and I provided one

No, you referenced two Ranger Axe skills.  The ask was to show me a weapon where Anet buffed its DPS 80%. 

Bottomline: You just didn't understand what you read.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Shagie.7612]

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The ask was to show me a weapon where Anet buffed its DPS 80%.

The offhand axe as a weapon IS those two skills entirely.

Are you really trying to ackshually your way out of this by saying you meant the weapon's damage range or some garbage cause lol

do you take pride in being an obnoxious pedant or something cause it's kinda pathetic

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, velocity increasing is not a weapon DPS increase. The potential DPS of the weapon doesn't change, it simply makes the projectiles more likely to hit their targets. If you hit and how much you hit for are two different things. I mean ... did the velocity increase give you more damage on targets you COULD already hit? No it didn't. That's not semantics either ... that's just understanding how the game works. 

 

DPS is how much damage the weapon can do over time. If you can side step the arrows because they are slow, the weapon does 0 DPS. Increase the velocity and now it does the potential DPS. You can increase the damage numbers as much as you like, but if they don't hit, that's 0 DPS.

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, you referenced two Ranger Axe skills.  The ask was to show me a weapon where Anet buffed its DPS 80%. I didn't even specify a Ranger weapon ... just ANY weapon at all.

Bottomline: You just didn't understand what you read.

And, that's arguing semantics.

You could also argue that no profession has ever been nerfed or buffed with this line of lunacy. bEcAuSe It'S jUsT ThE SkIlLs!

Edited November 15, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Jijimuge.4675]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:52 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Oh you do? Because Anet has a history of buffing whole weapon DPS by 80%? That's ... interesting, especially considering the DPS performance of comparable weapons already in the game. But yes, definitely don't do anything like use the history of the game to guide your thoughts. 

They initially did even more than that with mesmer staff in PvE (on the initial patch I calculated a buff to autoattack of appx 133% or so)...along with an even greater buff for mirage.  They did eventually scale it down, but it remains a very significant buff.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

DPS is how much damage the weapon can do over time.

Again, did projectile velocity increase the weapons DPS for targets you could already hit? No it didn't, so that change was NOT a DPS increase. In the context of this thread, we aren't talking about if someone hits or misses. The comment was related to a flat out 80% DPS increase on Hammer. Not one skill on hammer, not a velocity increase. The idea that this spec is fixed by 'buff DPS 80% and be done with it" is an absurd idea in the first place. 

As for an offhand ... if you understand what DPS ACTUALLY means, you would understand why those 80% increases in their individual skill DPS are STILL not 80% DPS increases of the overall DPS for the build that uses that offhand. That's why Ranger Axe example is misleading.  The poster implied an 80% increase for hammer would fix the spec ... that's not a few skills ... that's it's OVERALL DPS. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

The offhand axe as a weapon IS those two skills entirely.

Right ... which is not an OVERALL DPS increase of 80% ... unless someone is only attacking with ofhand weapons, which is absurd. Again, the comment of the poster I'm referring to is asking to buff Hammer DPS 80%. That's an OVERALL build DPS increase, not just an offhand weapon. One buffed up offhand is not evidence Anet just throws out 80% DPS for a whole weapon to 'be done with'  fixing an espec. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, did projectile velocity increase the weapons DPS for targets you could already hit? No it didn't, so that change was NOT a DPS increase. In the context of this thread, we aren't talking about if someone hits or misses. The comment was related to a flat out 80% DPS increase on Hammer. Not one skill on hammer, not a velocity increase. The idea that this spec is fixed by 'buff DPS 80% and be done with it" is an absurd idea in the first place. 

As for an offhand ... if you understand what DPS ACTUALLY means, you would understand why those 80% increases in their individual skill DPS are STILL not 80% DPS increases of the overall DPS for the build that uses that offhand. That's why Ranger Axe example is misleading.  The poster implied an 80% increase for hammer would fix the spec ... that's not a few skills ... that's it's OVERALL DPS. 

 

The velocity increase did not increase the damage you could do against stationary targets, correct. In PvE. But the halving of the RF cast time and the buffs to LRS and Barrage still make it an 80% total increase to total DPS for any given longbow build. In competitive modes, it is an infinite increase due to velocity increase, because nothing is stationary there.

 

Obenta: Baiting, switching and moving the goal posts since 2017.