Thoughts on the Untamed from a Ranger with 2K hours of experience

[Falconwing.8105]

Good morning,

 

Ranger is by far my most played and most enjoyed profession in Guild Wars 2, and over the years it has gained many good options that enabled it to perform better and better when played with other people. Back in 2012 I remember getting kicked from a party in Twilight Arbor for playing a Longbow Ranger with a Brown Bear pet (not even memeing, this was actually my build). In 2015 we get the druid, which suddenly opened up a valuable party option as a team support. In 2017 we got the soulbeast, which allowed rangers multiple ways to approach PvE content as a damage dealer. Today we see the condition, the power, and the hybrid soulbeast all performing very well in party compositions, and despite years of fine tuning the Druid still clings to its tried and true Raid role, even if it sees less use in other content.

 

Going into End of Dragons I knew that what Ranger still needed out of an elite specialization was something that resolved the last remaining issue that the class has, that being its poor performance in group fights in WvW (and to some extent in PvP). Throughout 2020 and 2021 I spent hours grinding out PvP matches to complete Transcendence and Ascension, and the one thing I noticed is that even Valkyrie Core Ranger could fold in prolonged fights or fights involving multiple opponents with large AOEs. And while Soulbeast has always been threatening on its own in WvW it ends up not contributing much to large group play in that cornerstone game mode of GW2. So clearly there was a recognizable niche of gameplay design that needed something to fill it.

 

So with all of my expectations laid out, let's talk Untamed. First off, even though I knew that this was clearly designed around PvP content I still wanted to give it a run in a Raid environment. After sitting down with my squad and going through a quick run of all of the traits and skills that Untamed offers, it was clear that very few of them could match what Soulbeast or even Core Ranger offered as a damage dealer. The ideal scenario for a DPS Untamed would be to have your character Unleashed at all times for the 15% damage bonus (at the cost of 10% more incoming damage), but doing so means you're not really playing into the mechanics of the class. This did not feel like the full potential of the Untamed and overall worse than just playing Soulbeast. So I tried playing it as a tank with core ranger spirits. This... really isn't worth doing. I've seen some weird tanks on Vale Guardian, including a thief running Vigilant stats, but using a mixture of marauder and knight stats on an Untamed still didn't address that the spec doesn't have much damage mitigation. Sure, I had a lot of protection uptime and a high health pool and innate damage reduction, but only one block with a greatsword and two dodges. Not really worthwhile to run compared to the tried and true Firebrand or Chronomancer. Even when I have tanked as a druid I could still offer boons and healing to my party, whereas the Untamed offers none. I do not recommend this spec for Raids or Fractals. 

 

But I expected this to be the results given that it allows Soulbeast and Druid to still fill their roles in PvE while the Untamed reigns in PvP modes. However, this wasn't my experience either. When designing the Untamed the team confusingly shifted the pet controls so that the ability to recall my pet is no longer able to be bound to a key. So I can send my pet in, but I can't call them back without swapping or putting them on passive , which doesn't really solve the problem. Additionally (Mukluk's video on the Untamed shows this off if you need visual reference) it does not appear that pet CC abilities interact with Fervent Force. For a spec that is supposed to focus on the bond with your pet, it's weird that this trait only works when the player uses a CC skill. And I ran into the issue with using Hammer where when I wanted to do damage and Unleash myself, I didn't actually have my CC abilities because they are on the Leashed version of the hammer kit. So I needed to use my pet CC skills which, again, don't trigger Fervent Force. I'm of the opinion that this individual trait is not worth using. And I also found that I disagree with my own initial impressions of the Unleashed Version of the hammer from last Friday. Originally I didn't like that only the Hammer gets new skills while Unleashed and all other weapons get nothing, but now I don't think I like that the Hammer gets Unleashed either. It's a weird, clunky dance of needing to manage two states of pet skills, two states of your hammer skills, your pet's health and pet swap, and swapping to a second weapon set when needed. Essentially, Untamed feels like having to juggle two states of every mechanic that Ranger has access to, except for utilities. It's similar to why I don't enjoy Revenant gameplay all that much. Maybe I'm just a bad player, but this isn't enjoyable for me. 

 

I will say that I think the Utility Skills are fine, but it's very weird that none of them are a stun break. In PvP and WvW you NEED a stun break, and I'm used to running two when I play ranger. Also, Ranger has always had low access to Stability, and this spec only gives a new source of Stability with Enhancing Impact. Am I alone in thinking that Dolyak Stance would synergize very well with what the Untamed is trying to do? Because I found myself wishing I had access to Dolyak Stance quite a few times. And the Heal Cantrip is too volatile for my taste since its at its most effective when your pet isn't in the thick of combat. If you're both on low health you need to swap your pet and hope it doesn't get burst down before your heal actually activates, otherwise you get back a much smaller amount than you'll need. There's also no additional blocks provided to the Untamed, so it seems like you're expected to just tank the damage through damage reduction instead. That still is going to lead to quick deaths in WvW team fights. Soulbeast at least had the option of you merging with a black bear for stronger sustain in team fights. 

 

Lastly, I want to say that the particle effect that covers the Untamed looks really bad. The coloration and the vine effect combined is extremely ugly and unappealing. I'd rather we get something like what Herald has, where the untamed image appears under the feet of either us or our pet depending on which state of Unleashed I'm in. Or maybe an icon over our heads? I grew to tolerate the Soulbeast effects even if I still don't like that I can't disable them for myself (I mean, come on, I can look at my HUD and see if I'm merged or not. The particle effects do nothing for me) but I cannot stand the infusion level effect that completely covers my character to signal whether I am unleashed or my pet is. This is a terrible aesthetic. 

 

I see what the team is going for here, and I think it's on a workable track. However, based on my (admittedly limited) experience with the Untamed, it does not answer the question it was designed to solve. Not yet at least. The Pet UI is clunky, the Unleashed mechanic is clunky, and it still lacks critical tools that would allow it to truly shine on the front lines in the Eternal Battlegrounds. Right now, Soulbeast not only feels more fun to play in PvE, but it feels more fun to play than the Untamed in all areas of the game. 

[Ashen.2907]

Agreed on all points. I think that the clunkiness of the mechanics will result in underutilization in the (clearly) intended game mode (WvW zerg fights). 

[anduriell.6280]

The damage is not there, the CC is not there, pets definitely aren't going to be there. 

[Ahleage.4026]

Rangers did already get a permanent visual effect stuck on them with soulbeast spec. I did not like it then and I dislike it even more here with untamed. Besides being too similar of a concept it is event more obscuring than the one on soulbeast. Not to mention we have it stuck on us without an option of disabling. I really hope they listen to the feedback and remove it. Not change, just outright remove it. It's unnecessary, repetitive, ugly and annoying.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Ahleage.4026

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

We need to drop the “oh this is a PvP spec it doesn’t need to be viable in PvE” argumentation.  We should not let Anet get away with that mentality when there are LITERALLY skill splits baked into the game to address this.  Skill splits are intended to allow specs to be good (or at least semi-viable) in all environments.  More diversity in DPS options for PvE isn’t a bad thing and they can (and should) easily bump Untamed’s numbers up to be at least marginally competitive with other specs (power reaper numbers or higher would be solid).  Currently Untamed does even less damage than Power Herald or Spellbreaker, notoriously bad DPS classes when compared across all options. 
 

 We need to end the narrative that is “oh it’s a PvP/wvw spec” and really advocate for all specs to have a bare minimum level of DPS and/or Support in PvE so that people have more meaningful and useful options and don’t feel punished for running the specs they enjoy. 

[Mell.4873]

I believe what is needed is to make all the other pets and weapons viable. I mean most other classes get alot of there weapons and mechanics used in all game modes except ranger. Some pets and weapons get barely any play, like sword and warhorn. 

By providing every pet family there own f1 to f3 unleashed ability especially if it gives access to buffs like alac or quickness (bird? ) then that pet family will now be usable. Other things could include a pet family portal (Devourer burrow?) or pure power damage (wolf) 

The final thing this elite spec needs is more of what makes ranger weapons awesome, unleashed versions adding to each mechanic. Imagine a greatsword with ammo on its maul. That could provide huge synergy with a bunch of builds like maul into swoop (leap), then maul into hilt bash, then maul into weapons swap.

Another example is Sword it is in dire need of something more than just leap in or leap back. I suggested the unleashed version provides quickness on the leap and extra might on all other attacks. That would help speed up the weapon while you dodge. 

Warhorn is obvious, let it provide alacrity and quickness but at 70% up times with full concentration. Then let a pet family (bird?) provide the last 30%.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

5 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

We need to drop the “oh this is a PvP spec it doesn’t need to be viable in PvE” argumentation.  We should not let Anet get away with that mentality when there are LITERALLY skill splits baked into the game to address this.  Skill splits are intended to allow specs to be good (or at least semi-viable) in all environments.  More diversity in DPS options for PvE isn’t a bad thing and they can (and should) easily bump Untamed’s numbers up to be at least marginally competitive with other specs (power reaper numbers or higher would be solid).  Currently Untamed does even less damage than Power Herald or Spellbreaker, notoriously bad DPS classes when compared across all options. 
 

 We need to end the narrative that is “oh it’s a PvP/wvw spec” and really advocate for all specs to have a bare minimum level of DPS and/or Support in PvE so that people have more meaningful and useful options and don’t feel punished for running the specs they enjoy. 

Most of the Untamed skills and traits are already split and just need a numbers bump in PvE.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Most of the Untamed skills and traits are already split and just need a numbers bump in PvE.

yes exactly!  That is precisely my point

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Warhorn is obvious, let it provide alacrity and quickness but at 70% up times with full concentration. Then let a pet family (bird?) provide the last 30%.

 

This is anet we're talking about...they added Daze on WH a few patches ago seemingly randomly.  It turns out it wasn't random, they wanted it to trigger the untamed GM trait (among other things).  

 

So as far as they're concerned they 'updated' the WH to work with the new spec and probably won't touch it again for the foreseeable future.  

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

This is anet we're talking about...they added Daze on WH a few patches ago seemingly randomly.  It turns out it wasn't random, they wanted it to trigger the untamed GM trait (among other things).  

 

So as far as they're concerned they 'updated' the WH to work with the new spec and probably won't touch it again for the foreseeable future.  

I think the ranger weapons have some of the most interesting abilities. In terms of being top dps, heals or boon ranger is not the best but where it fails it makes up with being jack of all trades.

Untaimed should just be a class of everything but be excellent at nothing. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

I named my beta untamed "Lamest Espec." As a ranger main, I was so severely disappointed to find out that the name was, in fact, quite accurate. Absolutely nothing about it feels worth running. A healing skill that performs worse as you and your pet come under pressure. A long-cd teleport that requires a target that adds two whole stacks of vuln. "Solving" the awful pet AI issues by just giving every single pet a teleport on F1. Doubling down on how much we all hated the soulbeast merge effect by making an even uglier and more blatant leashed effect.

At this point I feel like ANet is actively insulting anyone who plays the ranger class.

Edited October 30, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[Puck.3697]

13 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

We need to drop the “oh this is a PvP spec it doesn’t need to be viable in PvE” argumentation.  We should not let Anet get away with that mentality when there are LITERALLY skill splits baked into the game to address this.  Skill splits are intended to allow specs to be good (or at least semi-viable) in all environments.  More diversity in DPS options for PvE isn’t a bad thing and they can (and should) easily bump Untamed’s numbers up to be at least marginally competitive with other specs (power reaper numbers or higher would be solid).  Currently Untamed does even less damage than Power Herald or Spellbreaker, notoriously bad DPS classes when compared across all options. 
 

 We need to end the narrative that is “oh it’s a PvP/wvw spec” and really advocate for all specs to have a bare minimum level of DPS and/or Support in PvE so that people have more meaningful and useful options and don’t feel punished for running the specs they enjoy. 

The problem is it's rarely doable to have a specc meta in all content. Tbh no game realistically manages this without speccs feeling too alike. 

The idea is elites introduce new options and concepts of a proffession in the broad scope of things if they were limited to ideas that worked in all content the options would be far smaller. 

Pve and PvP have different requirements and more which simply you can't meet on both sides. 

We have things like daredevil which you play on PvE and PvP but that's not because daredevil is good in PvE. It's simply the only decent option in PvE which is the difference. 

If elites worked in this way as you describe each expansion would remove the relevance of the previous elites. 

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem is it's rarely doable to have a specc meta in all content. Tbh no game realistically manages this without speccs feeling too alike. 

At this point the goal isn’t to make Untamed meta for PvE, it’s to make it simply usable.

Yea, it’s unrealistic to make everything meta in every game mode at the same time. But they should at least be usable for situations like “oh, I feel like playing this, it can fill this role adequately and not contribute literally nothing”. 

[frareanselm.1925]

I just dont understand why the tamed/untamed offensive and defensive skills of the hammer arent applied to the rest of the weapons

Edited October 30, 2021 by frareanselm.1925

[Zyreva.1078]

30 minutes ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

I just dont understand why the tamed/untamed offensive and defensive skills of the hammer arent applied to the rest of the weapons

I don't understand why anyone would want that nonsense applied to other weapons. As it is it just makes hammer worse.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem is it's rarely doable to have a specc meta in all content. Tbh no game realistically manages this without speccs feeling too alike. 

 

Please re-read my post.  I said "semi-viable," not "viable" or "optimal/meta."  I also compared it to Power Reaper directly, and not something stronger like Soulbeast, Renegade, Guardian, Weaver, Chrono, etc.

You literally just have to bump damage (or support) numbers up within an Elite Spec traitline, Profession Mechanics, or unique Weapon to make this work.  The individual specs will absolutely still feel different; you don't lose any mechanical or flavor differences by skill splitting appropriately

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The idea is elites introduce new options and concepts of a proffession in the broad scope of things if they were limited to ideas that worked in all content the options would be far smaller.

This isn't true and I disagree.  You can add modifiers or enough damage/support to make any spec semi-viable without sacrificing anything in design.  Unless the design is intentionally "no damage/no support and useless," but that's clearly not what they're going for with any of their specs

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Pve and PvP have different requirements and more which simply you can't meet on both sides. 

Skill splits allow you to design for both regardless of these different requirements.  You can easily create a pvp/wvw spec and just jack the numbers up in PvE.  There's no excuse not to

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

We have things like daredevil which you play on PvE and PvP but that's not because daredevil is good in PvE. It's simply the only decent option in PvE which is the difference.

I wouldn't call Daredevil just "decent" in PvE.  It has a 40k condi benchmark in a group setting, which is top tier.  Power is 35k and Solo Condi is 33k, both of which I would consider "Semi-Viable."  Daredevil, specifically condi, is absolutely a great option in group PvE. 

And do you know WHY Daredevil is good in PvE?  Because of skill splits and keeping the PvE damage at appropriate levels separate from the PvP/WvW nerfs.  Daredevil is actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about, so thank you for mentioning it.

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If elites worked in this way as you describe each expansion would remove the relevance of the previous elites. 

Elites DO work this way already.  Nowhere did I say that "new elites should always replace previous ones" nor is that what will happen if elites have a certain bare minimum level of power. 

 

The truth is Untamed pulls about 28k on the golem right now and NEEDS to be buffed to 34-35k (power reaper levels).  There is no excuse not to since it brings no meaningful support and does nothing but raw damage and a little CC.  Even if buffed to these "semi-viable" levels, Soulbeast will still be better than it so that completely negates your point about "new specs removing the relevance of old specs."  I'm not asking for Untamed to be BETTER than Soulbeast or Druid, I'm asking for Untamed to be "semi-viable" and not kitten tier like it is now, allowing it to be a meaningful option and not a garbage RP spec.  Skill splits are here specifically to allow all specs to be able to compete at a reasonable level in PvE regardless if they are a "PvP/WvW Spec" at heart

Edited October 30, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Dadnir.5038]

52 minutes ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

I just dont understand why the tamed/untamed offensive and defensive skills of the hammer arent applied to the rest of the weapons

It is part of the poor impression I have of this whole batch of elite. It's like they didn't think things through and added half finished features as an afterthought. From my point of view it's very frustrating, It feel like there is a need to discard some features and focus on what's essential (in case of the Untamed, discarding the hammer 2nd skillset and polishing the control over the pet seem like the way to go for me).

[Kilrik.6320]

I would be more willing to consider the Untamed elite viable if there would be three major changes

 

1.  Make the toggle for leash and unleash a global cooldown like an engineer kit.  Adjust the skill Cleansing Unleash accordingly.

 

2.  Combine the 5 alternating hammer skills into 1, no changing between leash/unleash.  Adjust the cd's as necessary for the combined skills.

 

3.  The pet in general suffers from easy death in pvp/wvw.  Soulbeast allows revives through merge, whereas core and Druid require more management through attk/call-back and pet swap. Since the  Untamed spec  focuses on the back and forth pairing, there should be more forgiveness for pets.  Reverse the pet's f-skills for leash/unleash (leash skills would be Venomous Outburst, Rending Vines and Enveloping Haze, normal pet skills for buffed/unleashed pet). When the player is unleashed I think both dmg modifiers for the pet should be something like pet deals a mere 25 percent damage but only takes 25 percent damage, or alternatively has a more monstrous health pool similar to pve, or the Mechanist golem.  With this the pet could be "saved" in situations where the cd for swap is ongoing and the elite could still function.  The utility of the pet skills leashed would still function effectively and the player base may be alright with it as well for a trade-off since the pet is doing barely any damage.  Additionally, the cantrip heal might might actually be usable if the pet has a large health pool during this exchange.

 

The pet ai is and most likely will always be an issue that lingers for rangers, but as mentioned a million times in the Untamed thread,  we need a more reasonable pet management system for Untamed.  I unfortunately can't think of an ez fix for this one.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Kilrik.6320

[Puck.3697]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:07 PM, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Yea, it’s unrealistic to make everything meta in every game mode at the same time. But they should at least be usable for situations like “oh, I feel like playing this, it can fill this role adequately and not contribute literally nothing”. 

apprantly not :P.. considering they made another Pet specc.. without fixing any of the pet problems.. and then ontop of that tried to make it completely CC Themed with low DPS XD

[fatihso.7258]

I have 7500 hours on ranger and didn't even bother playing untamed at all. And I have that name on my ranger since I created it years ago. This very much explains how disappointing the spec. Needs complete overhaul and ai improvement. Watching some live streams and live demo was more than enough to conclude the experience.

Edited November 4, 2021 by fatihso.7258

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/30/2021 at 12:55 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Most of the Untamed skills and traits are already split and just need a numbers bump in PvE.

Garbage PVE specs aren't fixed with 'numbers bumps'. If the skills aren't useful in PVE, they simply aren't useful, no matter what the numbers are. 

I mean, maybe you are of the impression that Anet is going to substitute questionably-useful skills with 'numbers' ... I've yet to see that happen. Necro is probably the best example of that. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

On 11/6/2021 at 3:30 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Garbage PVE specs aren't fixed with 'numbers bumps'. If the skills aren't useful in PVE, they simply aren't useful, no matter what the numbers are. 

I mean, maybe you are of the impression that Anet is going to substitute questionably-useful skills with 'numbers' ... I've yet to see that happen. Necro is probably the best example of that. 

Most of the skills in the game are not useful in PvE because PvE is a numbers game. Mobility doesn't matter, AoE CC doesn't matter, almost anything with a defensive aspect does not matter.

If you take a weapon skill with a power coefficient of 0.1 and make it a coefficient of 2.0, it is now useful. Take Necro Axe for example. Or all the Power Reaper Traits. Or...

You get the picture.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 11/5/2021 at 4:30 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Garbage PVE specs aren't fixed with 'numbers bumps'. If the skills aren't useful in PVE, they simply aren't useful, no matter what the numbers are. 

I mean, maybe you are of the impression that Anet is going to substitute questionably-useful skills with 'numbers' ... I've yet to see that happen. Necro is probably the best example of that. 

I could see anet buffing hammer damage in pve by ~80% and calling it a day
hopefully after they fix the pet

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I could see anet buffing hammer damage in pve by ~80% and calling it a day
hopefully after they fix the pet

Oh you do? Because Anet has a history of buffing whole weapon DPS by 80%? That's ... interesting, especially considering the DPS performance of comparable weapons already in the game. But yes, definitely don't do anything like use the history of the game to guide your thoughts. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Substance E.4852]

On 11/8/2021 at 6:52 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Oh you do? Because Anet has a history of buffing whole weapon DPS by 80%? That's ... interesting, especially considering the DPS performance of comparable weapons already in the game. But yes, definitely don't do anything like use the history of the game to guide your thoughts. 

Path of Scars:
-Damage has been increased by 85% when not traited.

Whirling Defense:
-The damage per strike has been increased by 100%.
-Increased damage by 15%.
-Increased damage by 15%.