The Echovald Wilds GW2 Era

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

I really wish people would shut up already about the saturation.

 

From what ive seen it just looks like a case of the graphic settings they use to make these videos.

 

For example during the sneak peeks for the elite specs the graphics and effects looked very different from how they actually looked in game when we got to play them

Just look at the extreme difference between the decent-looking core maps and the over-saturated maps of S3, PoF and beyond.

It's not always the settings that cause the visual issues.

People are rightfully worried.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

49 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Just look at the extreme difference between the decent-looking core maps and the over-saturated maps of S3, PoF and beyond.

It's not always the settings that cause the visual issues.

People are rightfully worried.

However, it is factually obvious that the saturation levels have changed between the first look videos/images, and the Shing Jea stream.

 

Whether it was graphic settings of the computer which recorded one or the other, or an actual visual setting hardboiled into the map, that stream shows that if it's the later they changed it and if it's the former then you can get rid of it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

15 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Did you not read what I said in my next comment?

I said they are not separated from the Cantha Government but are still within the Cathan Government but acted separately from certain faction's interests which would have allowed them to allow Tengu to live among the residence of Shing Jea Islands.

And that's not true. They were never acting separately from the main continent's government. Even the Ministry of Purity wasn't straight up refused in WoC. It was just a handful of individuals acting outside of the red tape to stop the Ministry of Purity who were acting outside of the red tape.

Quote

Also, I never said the Tengu are in hiding in Shing Jea in current time frame of GW2. I am speaking about the time before GW2 during the time when Emperor Usoku was hunting the Tengu in Cantha. I also said "assume" which means it is not facts but just a possible theory we may assume that certain people within Shing Jea were not so compliant publicly about hunting down the Tengu. We are only reading about the events told through the words of historians in GW2 world and historians tend to miss things or twist things after all when it comes down to the actual events.

I am starting to feel like I need to write a full two to three page essay everytime I say something just so people won't misunderstand what I am saying in my comments or when I talk about possible theories.

To be fair, you never gave any indication of timeframe of Usoku's reign and the discussion was about the current state of tengu prior.

That said, I directly referenced Usoku's reign as well, and how the Sunqua Peaks Fractal indicates that Shing Jea was not void of Usoku's military campaigns.

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think one thing to keep in mind here is that GW1 had a lot of territory that was theoretically under the control of one nation or another, but where you didn't need to go far away from towns, outposts, and fortifications to find hostile sapients. Grawl in Ascalon, heket (and technically centaurs, even if they allied with the Sunspears) in Elona, naga in Shing Jea, wardens in Echovald, and so on, even the Caromi Tengu in Kryta.

About the only recorded case of a genocide instigated by a post-Exodus national leader succeeding was Elonian centaurs, and even then it's possible that Joko didn't actually get all of them, we just haven't found the ones that escaped. I guess you could include the mursaat as well, but that wasn't exactly normal circumstances.

So I think it's entirely possible that Usoku's pogram was bad enough to trigger an exodus, but not so total that it succeeded in wiping out every tengu that didn't escape. There are probably wilderness regions that the pogram didn't reach, and if there were human populations that were willing to help hide and support the tengu, that would increase the chance of at least some tengu surviving until policies changed.

The problem to me is that Usoku's campaign was the third major military campaign (and at least the fourth confirmed military campaign) since the Jade Wind began - that's 3 major conflicts in 300 years. Usoku's campaign lasted about 80 years, having begun in 1127 AE according to The Movement of the World and Sunqua Peaks Fractal letters, and lasted until after Zhaitan's rise (1219 AE) according to all tengu lore in core GW2 campaign - Hayato and Riding the Wind: The Tengu Exodus. This means that the tengu faced approximately 100 years of warring with humans, with most of their numbers fleeing.

The reason this is a problem is the Shing Jea stream. Throughout the stream you can see tengu living very peacefully among the Shing Jea citizens, including one serving as a Monastery trainer.

Now tensions were very strained in Factions due to the devastating Tengu Wars, and the idea that after a third major miltiary campaign hellbent on wiping (or possibly enslaving) the tengu entirely, accompanied by even many of the more peace-striving Angchu outright exodus'ing out with enough reason to fight through at least one, possibly two, Elder Dragon territories just to then fully isolate themselves enough to distrust outsiders so much as to blind-fire whenever their external guardposts are threatened (see: Battle for Lion's Arch in S1)... and we're to believe they're now at perfect peace with humans, mingling so much as to not just mingle in banditry but also day-to-day lifestyles?

Well, it's just illogical. No culture so heavily ostracized, out-manned, and out-powered would be peaceful with their conquerors.

 

So unless it's going to turn out all these tengu are slaves - which the stream doesn't seem to imply at all - this feels more like the new writers have simply ignored all of the development lore of GW2 and tengu, while simultaneously referencing it in the most recent fractal.

Honestly, when the Echovald trailer launched, I was extremely excited. My biggest disappointment was the lack of a clear reference to the Kurzicks (instead being replaced by subtle jadetech outfits, which only further hints that Kaineng City is going to be some sci-fi mess) and the high number of tengu variability hinting even more at no possible playable tengu race. But having thought about it...

 

The high numbers of tengu heavily indicates at them straight up and utterly retconning everything about the tengu post-GW1, or turning them into the most docile and extremely unrealistic submissive race that which itself is a massive retcon too. In short, I am seeing it almost inevitable that the tengu lore is going to be suffering from a super heavy case of "new writers can't build off of others' work" at which point I have to wonder why the hell they got hired for working on expanding pre-existing stories.

 

I just hope I'm wrong and they introduce a reliable explanation for this seemingly massive contradiction in tengu lore and personality in the Echovald stream that's starting up.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Fueki.4753]

43 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

However, it is factually obvious that the saturation levels have changed between the first look videos/images, and the Shing Jea stream.

 

Whether it was graphic settings of the computer which recorded one or the other, or an actual visual setting hardboiled into the map, that stream shows that if it's the later they changed it and if it's the former then you can get rid of it.

Or maybe the initial images are from a different area than the one they showcased and both were made on the same settings.

But we won't know that for certain until it gets released.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

and the over-saturated maps of S3, PoF and beyond.

Huh? What about any of those maps is over saturated?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Huh? What about any of those maps is over saturated?

They're not. But they have a heavy use of shaders - particularly PoF and beyond. HoT is where the heavier use of shaders began, with Tarir, but wasn't so overused until PoF.

I think @Fueki.4753 is confusing shaders for saturation.

[Ashantara.8731]

I just had a big laugh at "Karstadt" - that's the name of one of the biggest mall chains in German history. 😅

Edited November 12, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[Rhywolver.8250]

36 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I just had a big laugh at "Karstadt" - that's the name of one of the biggest mall chains in German history. 😅

This won't end well.

However, Karstadt is pretty broke since a few decades, I'm not sure if they have the money to do anything against it.

[Ashantara.8731]

Just now, Rhywolver.8250 said:

However, Karstadt is pretty broke since a few decades

...which is why I wrote "in German history."

[Legion.4198]

It seems like the stream confirms that Ministry of Purity fell from power while the Tengu themselves survived by hiding in the Echovald forest, learning to avoid their patrols and live off the land. Either the Ministry was purged by the Emperor when they were no longer useful, dissolved by a reformist minister, or overthrown in a revolution.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Legion.4198

[EdwinLi.1284]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And that's not true. They were never acting separately from the main continent's government. Even the Ministry of Purity wasn't straight up refused in WoC. It was just a handful of individuals acting outside of the red tape to stop the Ministry of Purity who were acting outside of the red tape.

To be fair, you never gave any indication of timeframe of Usoku's reign and the discussion was about the current state of tengu prior.

That said, I directly referenced Usoku's reign as well, and how the Sunqua Peaks Fractal indicates that Shing Jea was not void of Usoku's military campaigns.

The problem to me is that Usoku's campaign was the third major military campaign (and at least the fourth confirmed military campaign) since the Jade Wind began - that's 3 major conflicts in 300 years. Usoku's campaign lasted about 80 years, having begun in 1127 AE according to The Movement of the World and Sunqua Peaks Fractal letters, and lasted until after Zhaitan's rise (1219 AE) according to all tengu lore in core GW2 campaign - Hayato and Riding the Wind: The Tengu Exodus. This means that the tengu faced approximately 100 years of warring with humans, with most of their numbers fleeing.

The reason this is a problem is the Shing Jea stream. Throughout the stream you can see tengu living very peacefully among the Shing Jea citizens, including one serving as a Monastery trainer.

Now tensions were very strained in Factions due to the devastating Tengu Wars, and the idea that after a third major miltiary campaign hellbent on wiping (or possibly enslaving) the tengu entirely, accompanied by even many of the more peace-striving Angchu outright exodus'ing out with enough reason to fight through at least one, possibly two, Elder Dragon territories just to then fully isolate themselves enough to distrust outsiders so much as to blind-fire whenever their external guardposts are threatened (see: Battle for Lion's Arch in S1)... and we're to believe they're now at perfect peace with humans, mingling so much as to not just mingle in banditry but also day-to-day lifestyles?

Well, it's just illogical. No culture so heavily ostracized, out-manned, and out-powered would be peaceful with their conquerors.

 

So unless it's going to turn out all these tengu are slaves - which the stream doesn't seem to imply at all - this feels more like the new writers have simply ignored all of the development lore of GW2 and tengu, while simultaneously referencing it in the most recent fractal.

Honestly, when the Echovald trailer launched, I was extremely excited. My biggest disappointment was the lack of a clear reference to the Kurzicks (instead being replaced by subtle jadetech outfits, which only further hints that Kaineng City is going to be some sci-fi mess) and the high number of tengu variability hinting even more at no possible playable tengu race. But having thought about it...

 

The high numbers of tengu heavily indicates at them straight up and utterly retconning everything about the tengu post-GW1, or turning them into the most docile and extremely unrealistic submissive race that which itself is a massive retcon too. In short, I am seeing it almost inevitable that the tengu lore is going to be suffering from a super heavy case of "new writers can't build off of others' work" at which point I have to wonder why the hell they got hired for working on expanding pre-existing stories.

 

I just hope I'm wrong and they introduce a reliable explanation for this seemingly massive contradiction in tengu lore and personality in the Echovald stream that's starting up.

That is the risk you take to be a "by the book" lore person. Even if the original lore writers worked on the current lore themselves, they could have changed the lore they originally established as something that was not entirely correct later or never intended to be 100% accurate.

 

It is not wrong  to be that type of lore person since by the book lore people preserve the original lore the most. However, you do risk being angered due to expectations being off since lore is always subjected to change or additional lore being added.

 

I am more of a "theory crafter" lore person so I prefer speculating on why,how, and when such change could have happened. Lore itself is subject to change or additional lore added during moments after, before, or between certain lore points even if the original writer work on it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

It is not wrong  to be that type of lore person since by the book lore people preserve the original lore the most. However, you do risk being angered due to expectations being off since lore is always subjected to change or additional lore being added.

Less angered and more... disappointed.

The Echovald stream - either through devs or dialogue in the footage - has just confirmed that every plot hook from Winds of Change and The Movement of the World has been negated.

Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood surviving and allied? Nope. Jade Brotherhood wiped out the Am Fah between games, then got wiped out themselves and replaced by a group taking their name.

Ministry of Purity establishing a xenophobic traditionalist dystopian empire? Nope, they got disbanded after Usoku died.

Tengu and other non-humans were wiped out and/or forced into exile? Nope, some tengu survived in hiding in the Echovald Forest after the Kurzicks wiped out.

 

The only thing they maintained was the culture of the Kurzicks and Luxons being wiped out, which was the most desired thing to get changed by the masses, ironically enough.

4 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I am more of a "theory crafter" lore person so I prefer speculating on why,how, and when such change could have happened. Lore itself is subject to change or additional lore added during moments after, before, or between certain lore points even if the original writer work on it.

I typically consider myself a theorycrafter lore person too, but I feel that theorycrafting is rather pointless if the lore itself cannot maintain any semblance of consistency.

So I guess I'm both "by the books lore person" and "theorycrafter lore person". I love speculating on the why, how, and when things happen. But if our first introduction to the lore says "It is A" then the second goes "it's actually B", and then the third goes "weeeell, it's C." then why bother theorycrafting when it's impossible to find a solid basis?

[EdwinLi.1284]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Ministry of Purity establishing a xenophobic traditionalist dystopian empire? Nope, they got disbanded after Usoku died.

 

Tengu and other non-humans were wiped out and/or forced into exile? Nope, some tengu survived in hiding in the Echovald Forest after the Kurzicks wiped out.

 

I think the Ministry of Purity losing power after Usoku's death is probably the most reasonable one that even the original creators of the lore would have gone with if they wanted the Ministry of Purity writen off before current events of GW2 if they were still writing on the game's story in my opinion. Organizations falling apart after the death of a certain leader does happen even to the most successful organizations. Even if that leader took some measures to reduce the risk before his or her passing, he or she will not be able to account for all possible issues.

Usoku was the leader people looked up to and lead them while some just believed in the Ministry of Purity's cause. However, Usoku's death would have most likely divided the public's opinions about the Ministry of Purity and how Cantha may move forward since his successor was not guaranteed to be as charismatic and skill as he was. Even if his successor is, the one after was not guaranteed as well. Not to mention the countless people who had different reasons for being supportive of Usoku's campaign may cause a split between themsevles from those who only followed Usoku, those who believe in the Ministry, those who did it out of personal reason, and etc.

Edited November 13, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I think the Ministry of Purity losing power after Usoku's death is probably the most reasonable one that even the original creators of the lore would have gone with if they wanted the Ministry of Purity writen off before current events of GW2 if they were still writing on the game's story in my opinion. Organizations falling apart after the death of a certain leader does happen even to the most successful organizations. Even if that leader took some measures to reduce the risk before his or her passing, he or she will not be able to account for all possible issues.

Usoku was the leader people looked up to and lead them while some just believed in the Ministry of Purity's cause. However, Usoku's death would have most likely divided the public's opinions about the Ministry of Purity and how Cantha may move forward since his successor was not guaranteed to be as charismatic and skill as he was. Even if his successor is, the one after was not guaranteed as well. Not to mention the countless people who had different reasons for being supportive of Usoku's campaign may cause a split between themsevles from those who only followed Usoku, those who believe in the Ministry, those who did it out of personal reason, and etc.

This.

I would also say that Tengu surviving in the forest makes sense. The Echovald is massive, its highly unlikely the Ministry of Purity would be able to so totally comb the Echovald as to totally wipe out any group that tired to hide there. Especially a group like the Tengu that were already used to fighting/hiding from the Empire from the Tengu Wars. We can see this reflected in so many examples IRL.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Legion.4198]

I think it is unreasonable to have 250 years and expect no changes, especially when experiencing an industrial revolution. Something as disruptive as an industrial revolution and entering into modernity is going to produce an era of momentous changes. 

The first dynasty  of an unified China, the Quin dynasty, lasted a mere 15 years ( 221 BC - 206 BC), and it had just two emperors, although the first one was really enough for at least two dynasties in any lesser country both in set up the base of almost everything that China was going to be and in being a ruthless tyrant while doing  so. It was in turn replaced by the Han dynasty, founded by the far more benevolent Liu Bang, which lasted 400 years, but even it was briefly overthrown 200 years in, before being restored again for another 200 years.  Generally, other Chinese dynasties have lasted 50-250 years give or take.

It is likely that Cantha has endured at least one major revolution. EoD trailer suggest that the jade-tech revolution has been going for a 100 years, so it is likely that a major transition of power happened around that time. Possibly, Usuko or his immediate successor was overthrown by a new Emperor. In that case, the Tengu might have been instrumental and rewarded with status as result.

On the other hand, I don't see petty criminal organizations like the Am Fah and the Jade Brotherhood surviving unless they become triad-like secret societies with a long-term political goal  on top of their criminal one, like overthrowing Usoku or the Ministry of Purity, and adopting long-term traditions and forms.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Legion.4198

[draxynnic.3719]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't get the impression that the Jade Brotherhood had been destroyed and replaced by a new organisation taking their name. What we were told was that the Jade Brotherhood caused some sort of jadetech accident that caused them (or at least their research division) to be forced out of the city. 

 

Considering the GW1 quest where the Jade Brotherhood planned to use a golem in an assassination attempt, them being fascinated by jadetech seems entirely on brand.

 

There's a lot that could have changed over the centuries. When we left them in Winds of Change, the gangs (what was left of them) appeared like they might ally into a resistance against the MoP. Once the MoP fell, this may have given the Jade Brotherhood a veneer of respectability, being viewed as having been freedom fighters rather than criminals. Of course, they're still endowed with...flexible moral standards, so they might well have been viewed similarly to the Inquest: most who have to deal with them knew they were dodgy at best, but they had enough political clout to avoid a coordinated backlash. Until the "accident" happened.

 

Furthermore, if the MoP fall from power was the result of a resistance movement, this might well explain the surviving Canthan tengu being friendlier than the Dominion of Winds tengu. The former, ultimately, owe their current way of life to their human neighbours ultimately overthrowing the MoP. DoW tengu, by contrast, have mostly isolated themselves since fleeing Cantha so instead their view of history is probably an echo chamber of how terrible humans are.

 

Ultimately, the last we heard of Cantha was Zhaitan's awakening. I don't think it's unreasonable for there to have been significant change since then, as long as the period of MoP rule is acknowledged.

[EdwinLi.1284]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This.

I would also say that Tengu surviving in the forest makes sense. The Echovald is massive, its highly unlikely the Ministry of Purity would be able to so totally comb the Echovald as to totally wipe out any group that tired to hide there. Especially a group like the Tengu that were already used to fighting/hiding from the Empire from the Tengu Wars. We can see this reflected in so many examples IRL.

Ya the only way they would have guarantee all Tengu hiding in Echovald Forest is wiped out is if they literally destroy the entire forest so there is no possible hiding spots left. 

There is also the advantage of being recognized in the public view "wiped out" as those who successfully hid in Echovald Forest will take advantage of this type of public knowledge to remain in hiding until the time is right to reveal themselves or never reveal themselves.

Speaking of Tengu, the new white owl type Tengu are just adorable and fluffy.
 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't get the impression that the Jade Brotherhood had been destroyed and replaced by a new organisation taking their name. What we were told was that the Jade Brotherhood caused some sort of jadetech accident that caused them (or at least their research division) to be forced out of the city. 

 

Considering the GW1 quest where the Jade Brotherhood planned to use a golem in an assassination attempt, them being fascinated by jadetech seems entirely on brand.

 

There's a lot that could have changed over the centuries. When we left them in Winds of Change, the gangs (what was left of them) appeared like they might ally into a resistance against the MoP. Once the MoP fell, this may have given the Jade Brotherhood a veneer of respectability, being viewed as having been freedom fighters rather than criminals. Of course, they're still endowed with...flexible moral standards, so they might well have been viewed similarly to the Inquest: most who have to deal with them knew they were dodgy at best, but they had enough political clout to avoid a coordinated backlash. Until the "accident" happened.

 

Furthermore, if the MoP fall from power was the result of a resistance movement, this might well explain the surviving Canthan tengu being friendlier than the Dominion of Winds tengu. The former, ultimately, owe their current way of life to their human neighbours ultimately overthrowing the MoP. DoW tengu, by contrast, have mostly isolated themselves since fleeing Cantha so instead their view of history is probably an echo chamber of how terrible humans are.

 

Ultimately, the last we heard of Cantha was Zhaitan's awakening. I don't think it's unreasonable for there to have been significant change since then, as long as the period of MoP rule is acknowledged.

It was one of those publicly acknowledge things but not officially made certain. Wind of change did have the GW1 character aid with destroying the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah BUT they were also given special option to spare two very important characters who were members of the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah who may have became the new leadership sometime after GW1 being Daisuke Crimson Edge and Eri Heart of Fire. Sparing them will have these two become allies to the GW1 character during the final battle in The Final Confrontation.

I am assuming the canon choice ended up being sparing both Daisuke and Eri during Winds of Change.

Daisuke and Eri could have taken the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah underground to a point it became believable the gangs were wiped out while rebuilding in the shadows.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't get the impression that the Jade Brotherhood had been destroyed and replaced by a new organisation taking their name. What we were told was that the Jade Brotherhood caused some sort of jadetech accident that caused them (or at least their research division) to be forced out of the city. 

There was some ambient dialogue going on you can catch during the stream:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/309191637144436739/908862493244424263/SPOILER_Screenshot_11.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/309191637144436739/908862503633686568/SPOILER_Screenshot_12.png

These two lines confirm that the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah from GW1 got wiped out. The Jade Brotherhood we see in GW2 is a different group entirely who's just taken the old Jade Brotherhood's name and claims credit for their actions.

Quote

Ultimately, the last we heard of Cantha was Zhaitan's awakening. I don't think it's unreasonable for there to have been significant change since then, as long as the period of MoP rule is acknowledged.

It's less of "there has been changes!" and more of ArenaNet building a bunch of plot hooks with the very obvious promise of continuing these hooks in GW2, only to have them reverted - not solved, reverted (because even the tengu, despite facing genocide, are buddy-buddy with Canthans again) - off-screen by getting to them in GW2.

What's the point of doing an anticipated follow-up, if you ignore all the things that was being anticipated?

 

The only plot hook they didn't revert was the conquest of Kurzicks and Luxons. Which, ironically, was the one plot hook that most players wanted reverted.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[EdwinLi.1284]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There was some ambient dialogue going on you can catch during the stream:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/309191637144436739/908862493244424263/SPOILER_Screenshot_11.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/309191637144436739/908862503633686568/SPOILER_Screenshot_12.png

These two lines confirm that the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah from GW1 got wiped out. The Jade Brotherhood we see in GW2 is a different group entirely who's just taken the old Jade Brotherhood's name and claims credit for their actions.

It's less of "there has been changes!" and more of ArenaNet building a bunch of plot hooks with the very obvious promise of continuing these hooks in GW2, only to have them reverted - not solved, reverted (because even the tengu, despite facing genocide, are buddy-buddy with Canthans again) - off-screen by getting to them in GW2.

What's the point of doing an anticipated follow-up, if you ignore all the things that was being anticipated?

 

The only plot hook they didn't revert was the conquest of Kurzicks and Luxons. Which, ironically, was the one plot hook that most players wanted reverted.

The Tengu are not buddy buddy with the Canthans as the live stream mentioned. Most of them are still distrusting of Canthans which is why majority of them stay in the forest despite years of policy changes. The developers even mention once we get there the tengu will not be so trusting of the commander as well and and good amount of focus when interacting with the tengu for hearts and maybe the story in this location maybe to earn their trust first.

 

I can only guess those that live in Shing Jea Islands were a small group willing to tolerate living among canthans again to see or prove things have changes over the years. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:59 PM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

The Tengu are not buddy buddy with the Canthans as the live stream mentioned. Most of them are still distrusting of Canthans which is why majority of them stay in the forest despite years of policy changes. The developers even mention once we get there the tengu will not be so trusting of the commander as well and and good amount of focus when interacting with the tengu for hearts and maybe the story in this location maybe to earn their trust first.

 

I can only guess those that live in Shing Jea Islands were a small group willing to tolerate living among canthans again to see or prove things have changes over the years. 

We had tengu living in a Shing Jea village, some tengu working as Shing Jea Monastery instructors, some tengu working alongside human bandits (both in the neo-Jade Brotherhood and the Speakers), and the "tengu village" was opened up to humans in very peaceful manners. The devs even said - though I don't think it got shown in the stream - that the tengu-only group that saved the tengu of Cantha by helping them hide in the Echovald Forest has opened its ranks to human recruits.

 

If that's not being openly friendly with the people who tried to kill them in genocide a century ago, I'm not sure what is. Because in both regions, we see tengu and humans mixing in most levels of society but with inverted numbers between maps.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 11/13/2021 at 1:38 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This.

I would also say that Tengu surviving in the forest makes sense. The Echovald is massive, its highly unlikely the Ministry of Purity would be able to so totally comb the Echovald as to totally wipe out any group that tired to hide there. Especially a group like the Tengu that were already used to fighting/hiding from the Empire from the Tengu Wars. We can see this reflected in so many examples IRL.

 

On 11/13/2021 at 9:00 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Ya the only way they would have guarantee all Tengu hiding in Echovald Forest is wiped out is if they literally destroy the entire forest so there is no possible hiding spots left. 

There is also the advantage of being recognized in the public view "wiped out" as those who successfully hid in Echovald Forest will take advantage of this type of public knowledge to remain in hiding until the time is right to reveal themselves or never reveal themselves.

Speaking of Tengu, the new white owl type Tengu are just adorable and fluffy.

OK.  So how did the Empire manage to vanquish the Kurzicks?  They seem completely gone as a separate people but the Tengu who weren't native to Echovald were able to hide in the Kurzicks homeland....

[EdwinLi.1284]

44 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

 

OK.  So how did the Empire manage to vanquish the Kurzicks?  They seem completely gone as a separate people but the Tengu who weren't native to Echovald were able to hide in the Kurzicks homeland....

Luxon and Kurzicks are not gone but the descendants of survivors are just now intergrated into current Cantha society. The live stream did mention we will meet some living descendants of Kurzicks in the Echovald forest once we reach there. 

They are alive as people but their old customs are most likely just memories now passed down in their families.

As for the Tengu, they did mentioned that the new introduced tribe that lived in the Forest for a long time in secret helped them. We just have to wait until GW2 EoD to learn more about this new Tribe and how they manage to remain a secret Tengu tribe in the Echovald Forest since before GW1.

Edited November 15, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Vidit.7108]

16 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

OK.  So how did the Empire manage to vanquish the Kurzicks?  They seem completely gone as a separate people but the Tengu who weren't native to Echovald were able to hide in the Kurzicks homeland....

I think the Kurzicks probably didn't hide or some did hide but not enough to outlast the empire. It's also not that hard to find House Zu Heltzer. They built and made extensive use of grand structures and ceremonies to worship the gods. They weren't exactly about giving up and hiding when they were warring with the Luxons, so they probably did fight it out or eventually capitulated. 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

18 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Luxon and Kurzicks are not gone but the descendants of survivors are just now intergrated into current Cantha society. The live stream did mention we will meet some living descendants of Kurzicks in the Echovald forest once we reach there. 

They are alive as people but their old customs are most likely just memories now passed down in their families.

-.-*

7 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I think the Kurzicks probably didn't hide or some did hide but not enough to outlast the empire. It's also not that hard to find House Zu Heltzer. They built and made extensive use of grand structures and ceremonies to worship the gods. They weren't exactly about giving up and hiding when they were warring with the Luxons, so they probably did fight it out or eventually capitulated. 

I don't find it reasonable that some hold outs wouldn't try to hide in the deeper parts of the forest if it meant preserving the Kurzick culture, but Tengu somehow would be able to to so in a region they weren't native to.

 

[Narcemus.1348]

I think what it comes down to is this is not the Cantha that Guild Wars Beyond players were lead to expect. The Guild Wars Beyond content was explained to be the bridge between what Guild Wars was and what Guild Wars 2 would be. This lead to the expectation that the Cantha that we would find is the isolationist xenophobic Cantha in the backstory. The reason that the Tengu risked coming to Tyria because things were so bad.

 

While all of the things we are seeing are mostly logical and acceptable, it invalidates almost a decade of theory crafting and speculation by the old player base. This deflates many's desire to continue to invest themselves in the future of the game. Because what it the point in speculating on the future of the game if the developers are just going to add a bunch of stuff that was not in any way hinted at, this making speculation about that future impossible. I know that I have gone from being someone who loved discussing this game's future potential to someone who just enjoys what comes out and then pretty well forgets it until the next release because it is truly impossible to try and predict the future.