State of Unblockables?

[Sovarica.4368]

Hmm just wondering about unblockables do you think they're in a good spot?

For me they seem very hard to come by I guess necs have it real good with the trait that can use staff skills to use unblockable and other utils but for other classes they seem like they're too limited or even if you have a signet that has the option it feels like it lasts an extremely short while. I was also wondering if adding a unblockable sigil would be good?

[Morwath.9817]

Unblockable is bad mechanic, as it simply makes classes with evades better than classes reliant on block.

[Ragnar.4257]

Warrior, Necro, Thief, Rev, already have an over-abundance of Unblockable, to the point where its not even worth trying to block them.

Ele, Ranger, Guard, Engi have options on some builds but not all

Only really Mesmer that has too little to work with in this regard.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Shao.7236]

8 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Warrior, Necro, Thief, Rev, already have an over-abundance of Unblockable, to the point where its not even worth trying to block them.

Ele, Ranger, have options on some builds but not all

Only really Mesmer and Engi that have got too little to work with in this regard.

Perhaps Mesmer since all I can think of is GS2, but Engineer has plenty unblockables that are really game changing if used right.

[Ragnar.4257]

Just now, Shao.7236 said:

Perhaps Mesmer since all I can think of is GS2, but Engineer has plenty unblockables that are really game changing if used right.

Ya, realised after I posted and edited it to the other category.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

39 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Warrior, Necro, Thief, Rev, already have an over-abundance of Unblockable, to the point where its not even worth trying to block them.

Ele, Ranger, Guard, Engi have options on some builds but not all

Only really Mesmer that has too little to work with in this regard.

Eeehhhhh... 

 

Warrior? Spellbreaker has FC be unblockable in default. Simply never block vs FC. That's basically the strategy with SpB anyway. Don't proc FC and if you do, while an evade frame. 

 

As for the other options. Signet of Might is a dead giveaway. I don't know about other classes, but I always know when another warrior goes form the Signet of Might active, the only 'reliable, on demand' unblockable attack. 

 

As for lesser SoM the requirement is to drop below 50 % health. Even then, if it's off CD. On top of that, almost no one runs Arms competitively in PvP. Condi builds don't rly need it. Power builds don't use Signets outside of burst now anyway (Heal Signet trash, endurance Signet suffers from casts time that's not even in the tool tip, dolyak Signet is a mid stunbreak). 

 

I'd say, Dragonhunters are far more oppressive with unblockables built inside their skills. Not that it matters. I think making unblockable a constant buff would be both better for some professions and not a direct buff (since if not gated behind number of attacks, the duration of the unblockable phase would become quite shorter).

[Ragnar.4257]

40 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Eeehhhhh... 

 

Warrior? Spellbreaker has FC be unblockable in default. Simply never block vs FC. That's basically the strategy with SpB anyway. Don't proc FC and if you do, while an evade frame. 

 

As for the other options. Signet of Might is a dead giveaway. I don't know about other classes, but I always know when another warrior goes form the Signet of Might active, the only 'reliable, on demand' unblockable attack. 

 

As for lesser SoM the requirement is to drop below 50 % health. Even then, if it's off CD. On top of that, almost no one runs Arms competitively in PvP. Condi builds don't rly need it. Power builds don't use Signets outside of burst now anyway (Heal Signet trash, endurance Signet suffers from casts time that's not even in the tool tip, dolyak Signet is a mid stunbreak). 

 

I'd say, Dragonhunters are far more oppressive with unblockables built inside their skills. Not that it matters. I think making unblockable a constant buff would be both better for some professions and not a direct buff (since if not gated behind number of attacks, the duration of the unblockable phase would become quite shorter).

Left out Breaching Strike.

And traited Signet of Might allows you to basically negate 100% of channelled blocks. No class is running multiple channelled blocks, it's usually only 1, rarely, 2. All you need to do is hold SoM for when they use their channelled block.

Wait for Ranger to use GS#4 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for Engi to use Shield#5 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for Rev to use Staff#3 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for DH to use F3 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for Warrior to use Shield#5 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

You have clearly not experienced the joy of playing a class whose defence is 100% predicated on Blocking, and being confronted with an unblockable Berserker. Your defences are literally reduced down to 2 dodges. It's like trying to play a condi-build into a Diamond Skin Ele, you've gone beyond hard-counter into straight up not-allowed-to-play territory.

Not to mention also, that having the ability to make other skills unblockable, is inherently a much more powerful ability than having a single skill be unblockable. It allows you to choose whether to make your CC skills unblockable, or your burst, as the situation demands. For that reason I would also have put Ranger in the top-tier, if SotH was on the same cooldown as SoM.

Anyway, my point isn't that Warrior is OP, my point is just that if you want options for Unblockable, there's plenty already available for you to select, we don't need more. Unless you're a mesmer.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Genesis.5169]

I think its fine honestly game might need a few more but i do play alot of mesmer...

Edited November 14, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Bazsi.2734]

2 hours ago, Sovari.7246 said:

Hmm just wondering about unblockables do you think they're in a good spot?

For me they seem very hard to come by I guess necs have it real good with the trait that can use staff skills to use unblockable and other utils but for other classes they seem like they're too limited or even if you have a signet that has the option it feels like it lasts an extremely short while. I was also wondering if adding a unblockable sigil would be good?

Unblockable used to be much more prevalent back in the day. Soulbeast had a few seconds of unblockable after merging with pet for example(everyone took the trait as it was so broken OP), DJ on deadeye was unblockable etc... the ability to land key&hardhitting skills through blocks was so prevalent it rendered builds with blocking basicly useless.
It got nerfed to the state it is now. I'd prefere if it stayed like this.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I think its fine honestly game might new a few more but i do play alot of mesmer...

I think there should be less if anything, the fact that half the necro skills are unblockable is partially why there is 3 necromancers a match or more.
I get it, thematically it doesnt make sense for you to be able to " block " something like a pulsing blind from smoke, but its partially why the game is as braindead as it is.
Less braindead aegis spam, less unblockables.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

18 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Left out Breaching Strike.

And traited Signet of Might allows you to basically negate 100% of channelled blocks. No class is running multiple channelled blocks, it's usually only 1, rarely, 2. All you need to do is hold SoM for when they use their channelled block.

Wait for Ranger to use GS#4 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for Engi to use Shield#5 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for Rev to use Staff#3 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for DH to use F3 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

Wait for Warrior to use Shield#5 -> SoM -> ??? -> Profit

You have clearly not experienced the joy of playing a class whose defence is 100% predicated on Blocking, and being confronted with an unblockable Berserker. Your defences are literally reduced down to 2 dodges. It's like trying to play a condi-build into a Diamond Skin Ele, you've gone beyond hard-counter into straight up not-allowed-to-play territory.

Not to mention also, that having the ability to make other skills unblockable, is inherently a much more powerful ability than having a single skill be unblockable. It allows you to choose whether to make your CC skills unblockable, or your burst, as the situation demands. For that reason I would also have put Ranger in the top-tier, if SotH was on the same cooldown as SoM.

Anyway, my point isn't that Warrior is OP, my point is just that if you want options for Unblockable, there's plenty already available for you to select, we don't need more. Unless you're a mesmer.

Well the breaching strike coeff isn't too big in comp for it to truly be very deadly. It's moreso the fact you are expected to get loss aversion too in SpB to maximise dmg output from boonrip. And dagger leaps are very easy to dodge tbh. 

 

I mean, I play warrior, I only have blocks. I don't rely on Endure Pain and Defiant Stance. I have been killed by glass Zerkers. Just need to get them b4 they get me. 

 

But then it all boils down to comp warrior. SoM is not worth it unless glass. Core warr can make it work in a more balanced build at the cost of a second Stunbreak which is a no no. SiO and BC are a must have, Balanced Stance usually a close second option. It rly needs a change in general with warrior signets. 

[Lacdanon.1483]

17 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I think there should be less if anything, the fact that half the necro skills are unblockable is partially why there is 3 necromancers a match or more.
I get it, thematically it doesnt make sense for you to be able to " block " something like a pulsing blind from smoke, but its partially why the game is as braindead as it is.
Less braindead aegis spam, less unblockables.

I feel like this is very close to spot on, unblockables are kinda shared out amongst classes that can help bring then up to balance except of course the necro..

Is aegis spam really a thing? guardian having most access to it but your damage would be terrible if you traited for "aegis spam"

[Shao.7236]

20 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Unblockable used to be much more prevalent back in the day. Soulbeast had a few seconds of unblockable after merging with pet for example(everyone took the trait as it was so broken OP), DJ on deadeye was unblockable etc... the ability to land key&hardhitting skills through blocks was so prevalent it rendered builds with blocking basicly useless.
It got nerfed to the state it is now. I'd prefere if it stayed like this.

Back then it was really overpowered and senseless without much of a counter.

 

Unless you had i-frames, evades is all that could counter and yet that wouldn't really do it because Soulbeast channeled attacks lasted forever and did a ton of damage for over at least 5 seconds while Deadeye would have the chance every 3 seconds to retry over and over Death Judgement because missing has no punishement on Malice whatsoever.

 

Those are good nerfs that I'll always agree to with Anet just like the Infuse Light nerf in PvP, they should actually take notes of that and realize that some stuff is fundamentally broken and cooldown/co-efficients won't be enough, changing the function or duration of effects have often greater and fair trade offs to balance better without ruining the flow because an extra 20 seconds..

 

It's like the old Shake It Off on Warrior, it cleared 2 conditions and had 25 seconds CD, it was in a great spot as a stunbreak to accompany other utilities. Now it's a 75 CD 2 charge with 4 conditions. Just what the hell happened to end up with such drastic changes that actually ruins the flow of Warrior. Meanwhile you look at Ranger and they still have that super safe rotation Bow3, GS4, Smokefield, GS3 on top  with 2 super low CD stunbreaks that never changed in forever, what was the reasoning to ruin Warrior this badly, Tether Might/Endurance generation was the main issue next to 4k unblockable dodge spam, not really anything else.

[aymnad.9023]

  

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Back then it was really overpowered and senseless without much of a counter.

 

Unless you had i-frames, evades is all that could counter and yet that wouldn't really do it because Soulbeast channeled attacks lasted forever and did a ton of damage for over at least 5 seconds while Deadeye would have the chance every 3 seconds to retry over and over Death Judgement because missing has no punishement on Malice whatsoever.

 

Those are good nerfs that I'll always agree to with Anet just like the Infuse Light nerf in PvP, they should actually take notes of that and realize that some stuff is fundamentally broken and cooldown/co-efficients won't be enough, changing the function or duration of effects have often greater and fair trade offs to balance better without ruining the flow because an extra 20 seconds..

 

It's like the old Shake It Off on Warrior, it cleared 2 conditions and had 25 seconds CD, it was in a great spot as a stunbreak to accompany other utilities. Now it's a 75 CD 2 charge with 4 conditions. Just what the hell happened to end up with such drastic changes that actually ruins the flow of Warrior. Meanwhile you look at Ranger and they still have that super safe rotation Bow3, GS4, Smokefield, GS3 on top  with 2 super low CD stunbreaks that never changed in forever, what was the reasoning to ruin Warrior this badly, Tether Might/Endurance generation was the main issue next to 4k unblockable dodge spam, not really anything else.

 

22 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Unblockable used to be much more prevalent back in the day. Soulbeast had a few seconds of unblockable after merging with pet for example(everyone took the trait as it was so broken OP), DJ on deadeye was unblockable etc... the ability to land key&hardhitting skills through blocks was so prevalent it rendered builds with blocking basicly useless.
It got nerfed to the state it is now. I'd prefere if it stayed like this.

 

Soulbeast was not 5s and was not even close to being op in the environment it was in. After gold 2 and in teams (tournaments) you would have seen more reliable damage, professions with more mobility, that have more synergy and way better defense mechanisms (thief, rev, engineer, mesmer). And guess what? It still is true today.

Is it a good change? In the current environment yes, definitely. But let’s not describe it like it was a top build at any point.

edit : I do not think we do not need more unblockable skills right now. It would throw off way too many builds or be harder to balance (even more if this is something anybody can get for free). 

Edited November 15, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Bazsi.2734]

1 hour ago, aymnad.9023 said:

  

 

 

Soulbeast was not 5s and was not even close to being op in the environment it was in. After gold 2 and in teams (tournaments) you would have seen more reliable damage, professions with more mobility, that have more synergy and way better defense mechanisms (thief, rev, engineer, mesmer). And guess what? It still is true today.

Is it a good change? In the current environment yes, definitely. But let’s not describe it like it was a top build at any point.

edit : I do not think we do not need more unblockable skills right now. It would throw off way too many builds or be harder to balance (even more if this is something anybody can get for free). 

Yes there were better builds out there, but that's because PoF power levels were in general insanely high. Like how did the devs design/tune the new specs, looked at those insane numbers and go "yeah thats fine, this is good for the game, release it".
The old deadeye was able to do 60K bursts, mirage had perma invuln mode for 10+ second while unloading 20+ stacks of every damaging condition in the game, warrior had instant unblockables hitting for 8-9K, basicly every power build could 2-shot and every condition build could sustain a level of condition pressure that qualifies as "condiburst" nowadays.
Yeah in that meta unblockable oneshots weren't the biggest issue, doesn't make them any less of a problem. Thank **** they are gone now, I hope they never return. 

[Math.5123]

On 11/15/2021 at 10:58 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Well the breaching strike coeff isn't too big in comp for it to truly be very deadly. It's moreso the fact you are expected to get loss aversion too in SpB to maximise dmg output from boonrip. And dagger leaps are very easy to dodge tbh. 

 

I mean, I play warrior, I only have blocks. I don't rely on Endure Pain and Defiant Stance. I have been killed by glass Zerkers. Just need to get them b4 they get me. 

 

But then it all boils down to comp warrior. SoM is not worth it unless glass. Core warr can make it work in a more balanced build at the cost of a second Stunbreak which is a no no. SiO and BC are a must have, Balanced Stance usually a close second option. It rly needs a change in general with warrior signets. 

It's not only the damage from breaching strike that's the issue. It rips boons and applies tether which is a good chunk of might and heal for the warrior. 

You say you only rely on blocks, both full counter and gs3 are evade frames with about the same cd as a dodge roll. Bulls charge is another evade. 

 

You also run MMR which restores endurance.

 

This is not me saying warrior is op or should be nerfed, but rather correcting the statement that warrior relies on blocks. 

 

To answer the OP, unblockables are way too prevelant. Especially on thief and necro. 

The fact that thief has; swipe, choking gas and basi venom to put guard heal on full cd when interrupted is beyond stupid. The fact that swipe (steal and mark) and spinal shivers prioritizes aegis before other boons make you unable to block them. Because regardless what people seem to think, the only channeled block on Guard is shelter. The rest is aegis. 

 

Shadowshot blind going through blocks and invulns also shouldn't be a thing. Same with smokescreen. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

Classes with shoved in unblockables.
Thief 
Power rev
Necro
Classes that always end up being meta
Thief
Power rev
Necro
I begin to see a pattern here

[Ragnar.4257]

On 11/14/2021 at 1:37 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

Warrior, Necro, Thief, Rev, already have an over-abundance of Unblockable, to the point where its not even worth trying to block them.

Ele, Ranger, Guard, Engi have options on some builds but not all

Only really Mesmer that has too little to work with in this regard.

I love how everyone is reacting "confused" to this post. But its true.

Daredevil has unblockable Swipe, Shadowshot, Choking Gas, Flanking/Larcenous strike, Preparations, BlackPowder, Smokescreen, Caltrops, and can make any of its other attacks unblockable via Basilisk Venom.

Necro has unblockable Marks, unblockable Wells, unblockable Corruptions, Spectral Wall, Dark Path, Warhorn daze, and a shout that makes all other attacks unblockable. Spinal Shivers not explicitly unblockable, but it does go through Aegis.

A spellbreaker built correctly can have the majority of its attacks be unblockable. Read that properly. It can have more of its attacks be unblockable than blockable. If you don't believe, well, sorry, you're wrong, this isn't a matter for opinion.

Shiro-Rev has on-demand unblockable for any of its attacks via Phase Traversal and Ancient Echo, as well as stuff like True Nature, Frigid Blitz, etc.

Weaver has unblockable knockdown on Focus-Air#5, unblockable Mudslide, Tornado and Tailored Victory both unblockable. Phoenix unblockable. Magnetic-Shield pull unblockable. 

Ranger, all traps and Entangle are unblockable, and can make literally any of their skills unblockable with Signet of the Hunt. Until quite recently Call of the Wild (plues the traited Lesser version) also granted a boat-load of unblockable.

Dragonhunter, unblockable F1 Spear, Test of Faith, LB#3.

Engi, poison grenades, acid-bomb, Toolkit magnet/nails, Prime light beam, slick shoes, blast gyro.

 

You have the tools available to punish blocks. If you know the enemy has a channeled block, like warrior-shield, engi-shield, ranger-GS, guardian-Shelter, etc etc, and you are NOT saving these skills to punish their block, that's on you.

This is what differentiates a good player from a bad player. A bad player just uses their stuff randomly, and then doesn't have the tools available when they need them. A good player will have already registered that an enemy will be using a block, and will have saved an unblockable skill for exactly this moment.

It's like wasting your cleanse on nothing, and then complaining about conditions. Apply brain and use cleanse at right time, don't come here asking for more cleanse.

If you just can't be bothered thinking about this stuff and want to have unblockable on all of your skills, well, then what you're asking for is idiotic. It's like wanting condi-cleanse on all your skills because you can't be bothered thinking about when to cleanse, or wanting CC on all of your skills because you're too lazy to watch your enemy and properly time interrupts of key skills.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257