Five Guild Alliance Scattered...

[Nefretta.6810]

•    Phoenix Dawn
•    Dragonbrand
•    Vengeance is Pain [ViP]

Now, I do understand Alliances is not yet enabled, but I felt that Our Guild's negative experience should be shared. ViP is a Five Guild Alliance with 2450+ Members that plays all content, and a good number of us play together in world vs world each week. For this Beta, our five guilds have been scattered across four different servers resulting in many friends that are unable to play with each other. This makes the beta almost unplayable. It is my understanding that the the system was to try to put people that frequently play together, and keep them playing together if possible and it seems to be a dramatic failure, resulting in a lot of unhappy players and making it very difficult to participate in this beta test in any meaningful way. This is quite disappointing for myself as I have been looking forward to the move to the alliance system for several years. I am just glad this is just for one week and I really do hope you get the Information you need to get the system up and running correctly. I just really felt it was important to share our negative experience as what is the point of this new system if all it does is divide existing communities that just want to play together.

Thanks for reading my feedback.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Alliances are enabled, but the sorting algorithms aren't. There's currently no criteria for putting players together besides one single guild, and of course their region due to the region lock-out.

 

Grouping players together by multiple guilds, playing hours, etc. isn't a part of this test.

 

Also you're not going to be able to have more than 500 WvW-centric players in the final version anyway, so you need to start thinking of how to restructure your superguild sometime soon.The devs aren't going to let you enlist an entire matchup's worth of players from a single guild, ever.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Dawdler.8521]

Well it is important to know that this ViP alliance is one of the reasons we actually need alliances capped at 500 people because for matchmaking and better population balance, one side isnt meant to stack 2500 people.

[Cyninja.2954]

17 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Also you're not going to be able to have more than 500 WvW-centric players in the final version anyway, so you need to start thinking of how to restructure your superguild sometime soon.The devs aren't going to let you enlist an entire Alliance worth of players from a single guild, ever.

 

This.

 

As of right now, alliances or guilds will be capped at 500 players. @Topic creator, I'd start thinking on how to work with this issue, say make a dedicated WvW guild from those close to 2.5k players where those that actually do play WvW can play together.

 

Maybe alliance size will be increased in the future, but until then, even if alliances were enabled, you'd not be able to get 2.5k players into the same one.

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well it is important to know that this ViP alliance is one of the reasons we actually need alliances capped at 500 people because for matchmaking and better population balance, one side isnt meant to stack 2500 people.

In fairness, it's not actually 2500 people stacked for WvW. Afaik it's a really big "PvX" guild where like 1/10th of the players would probably count as "WvW active" for matchmaking purposes.

[Xenesis.6389]

Are all 2450+ members on dragonbrand?

[LiraelSkye.6823]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well it is important to know that this ViP alliance is one of the reasons we actually need alliances capped at 500 people because for matchmaking and better population balance, one side isnt meant to stack 2500 people.

 

So basically what I'm reading is, there is no way to fix this. Or at least no one is offering a solution that would actually work.

 

If a guild can have 500 people in it then alliances are a useless feature at a maximum of 500.

 

This test has been utterly miserable for some people. I also love that in the special beta to sort out the numbers issue, I'm still constantly seeing "outnumbered". 

 

I get that this is the first real test of this but I am not remotely impressed. The current system is far less miserable than this.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, LiraelSkye.6823 said:

 

So basically what I'm reading is, there is no way to fix this. Or at least no one is offering a solution that would actually work.

 

If a guild can have 500 people in it then alliances are a useless feature at a maximum of 500.

Alliances are for better organisation without leaving/joining guilds, not superior numbers. The solution offered for stacking worlds is... 500 man chunks.

[DKRathalos.9625]

Alright I'll just put it this way 2450+ members, no way all of them play wvw.
So since you have like 5 more guild you can assign if member likes to play WvW and regularly play wvw they should enter VIP guild number 4 and 5 for wvw purpose. Keep the 1-2-3 for PvE stuffs.
For the other member who just being casual and only wvw to get gift of battle can just play with anything.

 

like the other member said Anet said max ppl on 1 alliance is 500.

[Nefretta.6810]

10 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Are all 2450+ members on dragonbrand?

 

Nope.   Its a big PvX Alliance. Only so many members participate in WvW, and those that don't should not count towards match making...

[Xenesis.6389]

54 minutes ago, Nefretta.6810 said:

 

Nope.   Its a big PvX Alliance. Only so many members participate in WvW, and those that don't should not count towards match making...

Ok well unless you have 500+ members that wvw, shouldn't a problem getting the main wvwers in one guild to get into one world. Otherwise not much different as it is now, where you have guilds on different servers and they all can't wvw together anyways.

 

The matchmaking obviously isn't working 100%, hence the reason for beta testing it...

 

[WanderingRogue.2359]

Yes, this may be just an initial test.  However, if it is the best that Anet can come up with after 3+ years of floating this new structure, it seems to be a dismal failure for the more casual player who wants to enjoy the game and WvW.  

 

True, certain elite fight guilds who primarily come out at reset (maybe the weekend) limit the number of players to a single guild. This may be perfect for them.  They have run rough shot over more casual groups and roamers.  However, is this what arena net wants? Only a few elite players able to play the game mode effectively?  How is that healthy for the game mode?

 

In this example, you have the largest community allowed using the structures created in the game by Anet (5 guilds x 500 players) who play every aspect of the game.  These are true PvX players.  They are not always specialists in one game mode.  Also, not every player plays every game mode.  However, crossover inside the community is common and fluid over time.  Wouldn't this natural in-game pull into different game modes be a desirable goal for the game?  Would this not create increases in average playtime by the player base and more revenue to support future game development and expansion?  Why is stifling or subdividing an active group of self-organized players not considered?

 

If they genuinely must limit the number of players to 500.  Then maybe they should consider a new structure for organizing a group rather than a guild.  Anet has been very nebulous about what an alliance is to date.  I hope that no matter the max size of the alliance, it is not just the number of people in a guild that counts against the total number allowed in the alliance.  For PvX guilds, there might be 500 in a guild, but only 100 that play in WvW.  Also, it would be good to have some leader(s) who can control who can join the alliance.  Guilds are a social construct over nine years old in the game.  We do not all use it to solely make a WvW squad.

 

I truly hope future iterations of the world restructuring are better than what we have seen so far for large communities.

[Zikory.6871]

What cracks me up. A 2500 player PvX community didn't have one person with the foresight to organize for the world restructuring, even after it actually failed the first time. Does vip have more then 500 active WvW players? Is this really a failure in World Restructuring? Or a failure in Guild leadership? 

 

Anyway, they said they are just starting with 500 and they don't have a Alliance cap set in stone. I posted a video in another thread, you should go watch it. 

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Is there something wrong with the forum?

OP's writing looks so tiny.

[Manticore.6170]

Introducing new features that create extra work for the guilds leaders to organize people into groups of what they may sometimes play shouldn't be considered. A social community of 5 guilds with active players that does PvX shouldn't need to segregate it's users, because then you are basically saying this 5 guild community should be a 4 pvp/pve guild + 1 wvw guild community. Doing this will only hurt the players and leaders of these guilds rather than help them introduce and include more people into wvw.

[Dawdler.8521]

18 minutes ago, Manticore.6170 said:

Introducing new features that create extra work for the guilds leaders to organize people into groups of what they may sometimes play shouldn't be considered. A social community of 5 guilds with active players that does PvX shouldn't need to segregate it's users, because then you are basically saying this 5 guild community should be a 4 pvp/pve guild + 1 wvw guild community. Doing this will only hurt the players and leaders of these guilds rather than help them introduce and include more people into wvw.

It would be rather funny if it turns out that this ViP alliance already have many of its members scattered on various worlds because social guilds and people are upset for them as alliances would scatter them.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Zikory.6871]

19 minutes ago, Manticore.6170 said:

Introducing new features that create extra work for the guilds leaders to organize people into groups of what they may sometimes play shouldn't be considered. A social community of 5 guilds with active players that does PvX shouldn't need to segregate it's users, because then you are basically saying this 5 guild community should be a 4 pvp/pve guild + 1 wvw guild community. Doing this will only hurt the players and leaders of these guilds rather than help them introduce and include more people into wvw.

I'm in a guilds leadership and my main priority is the players in that guild, like many other groups of people, we made sure the people that want to play together we're in the same guild so they could. I'm not going to feel bad about a guild with leadership that is scared of extra work for the sake of their players. But you guys do you. 

I'm not going to post Teapots video again, you can do the leg work if you care enough. This isn't Alliances, they are still developing how to link guilds into Alliances but for the first couple World Restructuring betas, they are limited to just guild and currently at 500. 

6 days in and people are still lost. I'm not so sure Anet is the biggest problem with WvW at this point...

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I don't see why there is a limit...the only time it'd be a problem is if you couldn't pull together other opposing alliances to equal in size.

So if ViP is 2500 strong (and I believe it after playing Dragonbrand lol) then just pull opposing alliances to equal 2500 then. 

So yes, world linking becomes alliance linking....

Edited December 9, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[ascii.1369]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I don't see why there is a limit...the only time it'd be a problem is if you couldn't pull together other opposing alliances to equal in size.

The limit is there because not all communities are like ViP. If a dedicated hardcore WvW community could stack an alliance with 2500 people their team would easily crush any other team. Numbers aren't everything, the size limit makes sure Anet can create even matchups, not just by numbers, but actual team strength.

Edited December 10, 2021 by ascii.1369

[SweetPotato.7456]

Their Guilds is 2500 players strong but not all 2500 plays WvW, 
People with reading problems. 

their WvW squad is made up of players from all of Their ViP's guilds, it was never 2500 of the ViP players in WvW. ...

what this post is saying was, that Anet said they will try to match players who play together in the same team, but they have failed.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

22 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Their Guilds is 2500 players strong but not all 2500 plays WvW, 
People with reading problems. 

their WvW squad is made up of players from all of Their ViP's guilds, it was never 2500 of the ViP players in WvW. ...

what this post is saying was, that Anet said they will try to match players who play together in the same team, but they have failed.

 

You'll be able to play with friends, but no matter who you are you don't have 2k+ friends.

 

The issue isn't that they have 2.5k active WvW players, its that if the matchmaking took that into account, they /could/ have access to 2.5k players on a moments notice if they decided to stack the linkup.

 

You can't just think about how many active players a guild has, you have to think about how many active players it could have over the entire duration of the linkup. Failure to take this into consideration and having hard limits on how many players can be stacked over that period would result in a repeat of all the flaws of the current system where players can bandwagon and game the system to their advantage.

 

People have repeatedly tired to explain this but just keep getting ignored. The devs already extensively explained why the system is designed the way it is, what it will improve, and why.

 

The entire point of Allliances is to limit the influence of any server/guild/etc. to 20-25% of a linkup at most. You have to stop thinking about the here and now and how the game is for maybe the top 10% of players who enjoy this system and think about the future for everyone, even though the changes will be difficult.

 

The game mode is broken, stale and dying and people are still just clinging to their traditions.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[SweetPotato.7456]

15 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

You're the one not listening. The issue isn't that they have 2.5k active WvW players, its that if the matchmaking took that into account, they /could/ have access to 2.5k WvW players on a moments notice if they decided to stack the server.

 

You can't just think about how many active players a guild has, you have to think about how many active players it could have over the entire duration of the Alliance. Failure to take this into consideration and having hard limits on how many players can be stacked over that period would result in a repeat of all the flaws of the current system where players can bandwagon and game the system to their advantage.

 

People have repeatedly tired to explain this but just keep getting ignored. The devs already extensively explained why the system is designed the way it is, what it will improve, and why.

1) You are derailing. too long to explain, so I won't 
2) Are you telling me 2,500 players from ViP is just going to suddenly start playing WvW? (don't worry they aren't going to stack)
3) ViP used to have even more players. I think Anet needs to take "active WvW players into consideration" and stop worrying about what the "dormant/non wvw" players might do in the future. That is something no one can know, and taking something no one can know into a team match making (whish is already very troublesome) is just trolling the current players.
4) There is a 500 players limit to a team, so that's not even a worry that need to be taken into consideration, by anyone about any guild trying to stack,  because it simply can't have more than 500 players. 

5) last but not least , this alliance beta is kitten. i hate it very much.

 

6) For Nefretta, Make a new ViP guild solely for WvW. problem solved. You can use Vengeance is Petty [ViP] 😛 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

The limit is there because not all communities are like ViP. If a dedicated hardcore WvW community could stack an alliance with 2500 people their team would easily crush any other team. Numbers aren't everything, the size limit makes sure Anet can create even matchups, not just by numbers, but actual team strength.

 

I don't see any dedicated WvW community that is 2500 strong.  No disrespect to ViP, but they are 99% PvE guild and are mostly known as 'bag farm' in WvW.  

Also, even if you limit size, how do you fight coverage? With world linking its pretty random if you are going to get coverage or not, with alliance just link up with some SEA guilds and dominate. 

So you get say four actual dedicated WvW guilds that are 50-100 in size at all times of day and suddenly 400 people becomes as powerful as the 2500 we're discussing.  

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:21 AM, LiraelSkye.6823 said:

 

If a guild can have 500 people in it then alliances are a useless feature at a maximum of 500.

The main purpose of the currently non-existent alliance system is to let people in small guilds organize and compete against big guilds, not to let the big guilds organize into even bigger groups.

That's not to say there aren't potential issues and stuff with it, but the point remains that the reason you feel like it's not benefiting your guild is because it's not supposed to.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Inventrix.3158

[subversiontwo.7501]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I don't see any dedicated WvW community that is 2500 strong.  No disrespect to ViP, but they are 99% PvE guild and are mostly known as 'bag farm' in WvW.  

Also, even if you limit size, how do you fight coverage? With world linking its pretty random if you are going to get coverage or not, with alliance just link up with some SEA guilds and dominate. 

So you get say four actual dedicated WvW guilds that are 50-100 in size at all times of day and suddenly 400 people becomes as powerful as the 2500 we're discussing.  

After Alliances Anet have said that they will look at things like rewards and scoring. I have said for the better part of a decade now that timezone disparity is best managed by scoring. It doesn't matter where you play, your main opponents with whome you create content production will be in your main timezone. If the the timezone is smaller the scale will get smaller if it is even. With Alliances, SEA, OCX or whoever else will get the same option as everyone else to either create small pieces (eg., 50) or big pieces (eg., 500) and I think a scoring system that takes a region's whole timespan in account will need to reflect those choices. They have the option to spread out 50 and 50 or they have the option to clump up into 500 like more populated timezones.

The latter can't go on rewarding them for playing against little to no opponents, that won't work whether you have server worlds or alliance words, players in small timezones still need to be distributed evenly to impact score anyway. That's why I think it is best mediated by scoring since you can then give peolpe the choice to clump up for friends and personal score or spread out for opponents to take part in world scores. They can't have both, that's just unfair and unsystemic. The other option would be to just shrink every piece of the puzzle down to sizes that can be spread across a region's weakest time zones (meaning no one gets to be well above the size of 50 or w/e).

SEA/OCX is no different from NA E/W primes in that sense. They are just smaller time zones so spreading those pieces across worlds evenly simply requires the pieces to be smaller. So, yes, they can shrink all pieces to the smallest time zone or they can motivate small time zones to break into smaller pieces to compete or stay in bigger uneven pieces to hang out and gain rewards outside of world-competition.

Ed. Just as a thought experiment with largely irrelevant numbers: If there are to be 10 worlds under the new system and you assume that maybe half the players who regularily trip the world population counter are looking to form into guilds and the other half look to play solo then you need an SEA/OCX playerbase of around 10k players, who play regularily, to even begin to consider 500-sized pieces that can be spread across those 10 worlds. If the regular playerbase is closer to 1k players the pieces need to drop down as low as 50 to even have a chance to be healthy. That's the bottom line.

Edited December 10, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501