What if the problem wasn't necromancer

[Morwath.9817]

40 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

And what were the primary issues that made those classes capable of bunker? We had the ridiculous stat combos avaliable, Druid didn't have reduced scaling on its healing, and several mechanics for Chrono and Druid were much different. Now everyone runs zerker, we don't have CC passive traits or passive invuln traits that are relevant anymore, and yet we still have issues with bunkers. Tell me again that damage isn't low?

 

This is another reason why you can't just go 'Bunkers were worse back in XXX time' because the game was much different. You're using the most extreme times of the game where bunkers could be insane but dps could be too, and classes had access to mechanical things they just don't have anymore. Right now, in this meta, damage is low overall. 

 

Low... damage... meta? Are Reapers, power Revenants, or Holosmith low damage specs? Whenever Lich is freecasting on you, do you think "bro, this damage is soo low, they should buff it"? Or maybe when you take True Shot from stealth in your knee for more than 50% of your max health you feel damage is too low? Maybe Tail Swipe just tickless? 🙃

 

What kind of damage would be not too low for you 10+k per button press with average life pool around 20k?

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

37 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Low... damage... meta? Are Reapers, power Revenants, or Holosmith low damage specs? Whenever Lich is freecasting on you, do you think "bro, this damage is soo low, they should buff it"? Or maybe when you take True Shot from stealth in your knee for more than 50% of your max health you feel damage is too low? Maybe Tail Swipe just tickless? 🙃

Welcome to why the Feb2020 patch was so awful and why there is so much angst amongst certain professions. That patch heavily nerfed the damage of some classes while leaving some other classes with high damage skills. It was billed as some great equalizer patch that would have followups to raise damage where needed, but instead of doing something easy, like putting a global damage reduction on when in the game mode they decided to tweak each individual skill's coefficients, which means that they inevitably left out large swaths of skills. Then Covid and layoffs happened so the second part of that balance pass never happened.

 

[Morwath.9817]

9 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Welcome to why the Feb2020 patch was so awful and why there is so much angst amongst certain professions. That patch heavily nerfed the damage of some classes while leaving some other classes with high damage skills. It was billed as some great equalizer patch that would have followups to raise damage where needed, but instead of doing something easy, like putting a global damage reduction on when in the game mode they decided to tweak each individual skill's coefficients, which means that they inevitably left out large swaths of skills. Then Covid and layoffs happened so the second part of that balance pass never happened.

 

Which kinda proves my point: damage isn't low in this meta (meaning meta specs ve meta specs). When you play meta spec against offensive meta specs, combat is quite fast paced.

So rather than aiming to nerf one of meta specs, we should ask for serval buffs to non-meta specs.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Welcome to why the Feb2020 patch was so awful and why there is so much angst amongst certain professions. That patch heavily nerfed the damage of some classes while leaving some other classes with high damage skills. It was billed as some great equalizer patch that would have followups to raise damage where needed, but instead of doing something easy, like putting a global damage reduction on when in the game mode they decided to tweak each individual skill's coefficients, which means that they inevitably left out large swaths of skills. Then Covid and layoffs happened so the second part of that balance pass never happened.

 

This is just a fiction. There’s no evidence to contradict that what we got wasn’t already their plan from the start.

 

First real clue: 300s traits were instated without the intention to fix them…as they put them onto new traits for EOD. COVID…layoffs… “busy working on the expansion” those things you listed are excuses to save face and nothing more.

Edited December 16, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

Warrior has historically been in a similar position actually. Same with ele. Either they have enough mitigation and resustain so that they literally never die, or they have it nerfed and they are useless. Very few times in the games lifespan have these classes been okay. They are either over the top or bad. 

And that happens because of bad design and almost never because of the numbers. In reality if the skill or trait is well designed…it doesn’t require any notion of numbers at all.

 

My favorite example of a very well designed, and meaningful skill, are traits like “Powerful Aura.” Which turn single target auras into shareable multi target auras. There is no real notion of numbers here with this trait and most of the useful and meaningful trait interactions in the game show no numerical features. They are mechanics in their purest form that allow for new permutations of builds to be created…and the real shame here is that so many skills have the potential to really be creative but instead of taking the past two years to improve mechanics we spent 2 years wasting time nerfing everything numerically and removing the game from the game.

Edited December 16, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Math.5123]

29 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

And that happens because of bad design and almost never because of the numbers. In reality if the skill or trait is well designed…it doesn’t require any notion of numbers at all.

 

My favorite example of a very well designed, and meaningful skill, are traits like “Powerful Aura.” Which turn single target auras into shareable multi target auras. There is no real notion of numbers here with this trait and most of the useful and meaningful trait interactions in the game show no numerical features. They are mechanics in their purest form that allow for new permutations of builds to be created…and the real shame here is that so many skills have the potential to really be creative but instead of taking the past two years to improve mechanics we spent 2 years wasting time nerfing everything numerically and removing the game from the game.

I don't get why you keep quoting me when we have established we are in agreement.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:56 AM, Ragnar.4257 said:

From a design point, yes, FB is "busted", it's trying to do too much.

But the point I originally replied to is this:

"easily the most OP support class there is, even moreso on Firebrand due to the Tomes"

"busted design" is not the same thing as "most OP". Firebrand is just objectively not OP in its current iteration. This is what I was challenging; the claim that FB is currently the most OP support class, which, is just an absurd claim.

Don't argue against a point I didn't make. I choose my words very carefully, if I say it is not "overpowered" then I mean exactly that, I am not making any determination on its mechanical design.

If you are legitimately arguing that FB is not just a bloated design, but is actually currently overpowered, you're insane.

Broken (design) does not equal overpowered. A very important distinction to make.

Broken means the thing in question breaks pre-established in-game rules in regards to what's healthy for the game or generally perceived as "acceptable" - i.e. a healer heals, a dps deals damage, a tank tanks; but a character that does each of those can generally be viewed as (fundamentally) broken. 

Broken is something that cannot be fixed with numbers game. It's too strong by design, so things have to be broken down and shifted on a mechanical level. Simply being overpowered (and not broken) implies it can be balanced with numbers re-adjustment. 

TL;DR: Firebrand might be broken; but if you call it overpowered in the current PvP meta, you're misinformed.

Edited December 16, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is just a fiction. There’s no evidence to contradict that what we got wasn’t already their plan from the start.

Other than their own words leading up to the patch and in the patch itself?

47 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

First real clue: 300s traits were instated without the intention to fix them…as they put them onto new traits for EOD. COVID…layoffs… “busy working on the expansion” those things you listed are excuses to save face and nothing more.

I think they were valid excuses in the beginning, but I think CMC got told that the traits weren't going to be changed, so he kept them like that out of spite.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Other than their own words leading up to the patch and in the patch itself?

They did follow up patches, you’re ignoring that those exist.  He followed up as he said he would…it’s just the follow up didn’t work…

 

how many times has necro minion health been nerfed so far…twice? Three times now? How many more nerfs will it take?

 

how about all the other nerfs that’s happened in the past two years…and removals of all the amulets in an attempt to “follow up” on the feb patch. Why didn’t he buff anything actually? It’s cause buffing was never part of the plan, and he made that clear in the actions he has taken…

 

”follow ups” didn’t mean buffs…it meant nerfs until everything is equal.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[CutesySylveon.8290]

13 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Low... damage... meta? Are Reapers, power Revenants, or Holosmith low damage specs? Whenever Lich is freecasting on you, do you think "bro, this damage is soo low, they should buff it"? Or maybe when you take True Shot from stealth in your knee for more than 50% of your max health you feel damage is too low? Maybe Tail Swipe just tickless? 🙃

 

What kind of damage would be not too low for you 10+k per button press with average life pool around 20k?

 

Lich damage was pretty standard before the megapatch, DE used to do MUCH more damage than True Shot does even now, Holo has taken massive damage nerfs and only ever did that much because of the free might stacking, which it was always able to do but other specs were able to do as much damage so it didn't stand out.  Power rev also used to do MUCH more damage, especially after the offhand sword rework where s4 into 5 was basically death to anything. Everything was extremely lethal and everyone wasn't running glass stats like we are now. Some things also just dodged the extreme downscaling, like Tail Swipe.

 

A few outlier builds, in some cases you mentioned just individual skills, doesn't mean the meta overall is high damage. True Shot hurts, yeah and DH isn't meta and relies on Trapper Runes to even be relevant. Lich form hurts, yeah and it's an extreme outlier and hated because it's able to delete things with power damage without power stats meanwhile everyone else is zerker and still can't out damage it. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by CutesySylveon.8290

[Morwath.9817]

7 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Lich damage was pretty standard before the megapatch, DE used to do MUCH more damage than True Shot does even now, Holo has taken massive damage nerfs and only ever did that much because of the free might stacking, which it was always able to do but other specs were able to do as much damage so it didn't stand out.  Power rev also used to do MUCH more damage, especially after the offhand sword rework where s4 into 5 was basically death to anything. Everything was extremely lethal and everyone wasn't running glass stats like we are now. Some things also just dodged the extreme downscaling, like Tail Swipe.

 

A few outlier builds, in some cases you mentioned just individual skills, doesn't mean the meta overall is high damage. True Shot hurts, yeah and DH isn't meta and relies on Trapper Runes to even be relevant. Lich form hurts, yeah and it's an extreme outlier and hated because it's able to delete things with power damage without power stats meanwhile everyone else is zerker and still can't out damage it. 

And you trying to say, that zerker builds should AA like Lich? 😱

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:09 AM, Crab Fear.1624 said:

If they nerf guardian, won't it just actually be an underhanded buff to necro?

Seems to me it will just make necros even more prominent in games.

No thanks.

Necromancers are still stronger than the curve at the moment, even without direct support.

Bring back in line guardians babysitting them 24/7 and they can get pressured again.

[Wild.1705]

What if the problem wasn't necromancer but the balance team (or lack there of) that could rebalance the the classes as needed.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Wild.1705

[CutesySylveon.8290]

15 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

And you trying to say, that zerker builds should AA like Lich? 😱

Did I say that? No. Damage is low, Lich is an outlier and before the megapatch, builds COULD do damage like Lich without being made of paper, which is what Lich gets to do now and hence why people hate it. 

[Morwath.9817]

8 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Did I say that? No. Damage is low, Lich is an outlier and before the megapatch, builds COULD do damage like Lich without being made of paper, which is what Lich gets to do now and hence why people hate it. 

 

No you haven't, you only given a clue with "hated because it's able to delete things with power damage without power stats meanwhile everyone else is zerker and still can't out damage it", which could suggest such level of damage would be fine for berserker builds. I went that route of reasoning, because post you've reponded to was finished with "What kind of damage would be not too low for you 10+k per button press with average life pool around 20k?" and you haven't given any clear answer to it. If you would be clear I wouldn't ask.

 

Anyway, if we look at our discussion we both tend to compare current damage to different time lines (probably those more enjoyable for us): for you it would be top damage periods in GW2 history, for me it would be bottom damage periods in GW2 history. Tbh current damage is pretty fine for me as its kinda middle ground between those two extremes, you can't just face tank damage and stuff isn't instantly dying either.

 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

3 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

No you haven't, you only given a clue with "hated because it's able to delete things with power damage without power stats meanwhile everyone else is zerker and still can't out damage it", which could suggest such level of damage would be fine for berserker builds. I went that route of reasoning, because post you've reponded to was finished with "What kind of damage would be not too low for you 10+k per button press with average life pool around 20k?" and you haven't given any clear answer to it. If you would be clear I wouldn't ask.

 

Anyway, if we look at our discussion we both tend to compare current damage to different time lines (probably those more enjoyable for us): for you it would be top damage periods in GW2 history, for me it would be bottom damage periods in GW2 history. Tbh current damage is pretty fine for me as its kinda middle ground between those two extremes, you can't just face tank damage and stuff isn't instantly dying either.

 

It wasn't a matter of clarity, you're just being disingenuous and trying to read into things that weren't said. 

 

I said it's hated because it gets to do those levels of damage without the drawbacks of being glass. If glass builds could do those levels of damage then we'd obviously have a problem right now, but they COULD before the megapatch but had more bulk and countermeasures to deal with it. You act like bunkers and dps weren't often neck and neck before aside from a few outliers like Chronobunker or Scourge when it was obviously overtuned and we had a much different meta mechanically. 

 

We're IN one of the lowest damage periods right now, everyone is running glass builds and still struggling to deal with things like necro. Heck, it's gotten to the point that the skill floor for something like thief has dropped significantly because they still have amazing escape potential but people can't punish them nearly as effectively.

 

 

[Morwath.9817]

36 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

It wasn't a matter of clarity, you're just being disingenuous and trying to read into things that weren't said. 

 

I said it's hated because it gets to do those levels of damage without the drawbacks of being glass. If glass builds could do those levels of damage then we'd obviously have a problem right now, but they COULD before the megapatch but had more bulk and countermeasures to deal with it. You act like bunkers and dps weren't often neck and neck before aside from a few outliers like Chronobunker or Scourge when it was obviously overtuned and we had a much different meta mechanically. 

 

We're IN one of the lowest damage periods right now, everyone is running glass builds and still struggling to deal with things like necro. Heck, it's gotten to the point that the skill floor for something like thief has dropped significantly because they still have amazing escape potential but people can't punish them nearly as effectively.

 

 

 

You mean, I shouldn't try to find answer for a question I asked you, while you directly quoted that question? What kind of discussion is this? Like when you tell me damage is low, as I compare to "extreme times" (where it was relatively lower), but ain't you doing exacly the same in different direction?

 

So I wonder...

...how hard should "dps" builds hit?

...what kind of TTK should we have?

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:26 AM, Morwath.9817 said:

Which kinda proves my point: damage isn't low in this meta (meaning meta specs ve meta specs). When you play meta spec against offensive meta specs, combat is quite fast paced.

So rather than aiming to nerf one of meta specs, we should ask for serval buffs to non-meta specs.

Your answer is right, but your math is wrong. 

Quote

So rather than aiming to nerf one of meta specs, we should ask for serval buffs to non-meta specs.

Yes.

Quote

damage isn't low in this meta (meaning meta specs ve meta specs).

You had to qualify what "damage is low" meant, which means you know what I was talking about. Damage is low in the sense that classes that can bring that damage are pushed out of the meta by not having any staying power whatsoever. I  count damage brought by classes that do not see play due to their lack of survivability as influencing the game's level of damage, because they do; they just don't get played because they don't have the damage required to move bunkers available to them. 

Why you feel you need to direct the conversation into that scope to make your point I do not know.

The problem, like I said before, isn't specifically necromancer (or guard for that matter.) I've seen necromancer be in just a crap position as some of the other classes are, and I would like that viability to not be obliterated by whatever mob of people have an issue with it beyond lich at the moment, that doesn't stem from their damage being removed in the megapatch.

It came to my attention that we agree on the solution, so I stopped arguing, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant. Y'know, for posterity. 
 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Morwath.9817]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

stuff

Thanks for clarification.

[Zekent.3652]

Guardian is also a problem lol, with their overloaded strong support kit.

[Kuma.1503]

Firebrand is underrated in PvP. Its 1v1 isn't great but it works well as a team fight dps with bonus utility. 

At least as high as low Plat. Can't speak for the highest tiers

Edited December 22, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Shieldbash.5304]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:28 AM, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

So arenanet has the same dilemma as any other developer for pvp games. Do you balance around the skilled minority or the unskilled majority? It's probably, most likely impossible to balance around both.

Neither, you tune down Guardian and Necro so other Support Classes can play the game too!

[Shieldbash.5304]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:48 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

there isnt any other class that can bring all that on one build

 

Thats why they are OP!

[Shieldbash.5304]

On 12/14/2021 at 4:32 PM, Grimjack.8130 said:

hmmm interesting theory, but maybe the problem is necro is the best or almost the best at every role in pvp right now

1v1s? it loses to certain 1v1ers, but not fast enough to matter and the necro will always be favored once rotations start coming in and out making 1v2s, 2v2s, or bigger fights

2v2s? see above

teamfights? the only good dps in the game right now are power classes, which necro loves shutting down by shroud procs, corrupting might into more weakness, or its top tier projectile destruction or blind spam

how about how supports are the best focus target right now? well dont worry necro peels for people better than anything else for the reasons above; corrupts, weakness, cpc/wod, but thats not even remotely it. things like unholy martyr, fear ring, chill, fear etc.

necro also destroys every roamer right now, drop a fear ring on a thief with no shadowstep and it can very easily die if your team jumps on it with you.

 

why would you ever play a core ranger who has to put in so much effort to win a 1v1 against a core necro, when every player knows as soon as the 2v2 happens; Core Ranger and Thief vs Core Necro and Thief that you're gonna lose the 2v2 no matter what. Now your 1v1 prowess doesn't matter, you're forced to go leave to a 5v5 or 4v4 that the Necro is better in, or you're forced to AFK on your home node or a Thief will instantly decap you, and dont worry you cant even 5v4 the teamfight and get kills to attempt to snowball because Necros peel for everyone too well and the Thief will be back matching numbers before the teamfight is even remotely decided.

 

Fun.

 

 

This is whats wrong right now, and honestly made me ill reading it as its Hammer Directly on the Nail!