Anet needs to move away from Open World design and make new dungeons.

[Renegated.4132]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So it's realistic you can't think of a reason you might do AC? Then the problem isn't the game it's you. 

Again, OW content is not dead like you want people to believe, so no, you are wrong that this would be a reason for Anet to focus on instanced group content. 

 

Ok, as I said, give me a reason why a veteran player would do a dungeon vs a raids or a strike missions, the rewards on dungeons are not worth the time and when it comes to content, there are better and faster options when it comes to farming. The only reason to go to a dungeon if you're a veteran is assisting someone  or pure nostalgia.

 

But well, let's end it here because we will never agree. 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

... reason to go to a dungeon if you're a veteran is assisting someone  or pure nostalgia.

And there we have it ... some reasons to go to AC, and there ARE others, you just don't want to admit you were wrong. It doesn't end here because you want to pretend there aren't reasons for players to do things, especially in OW .. when there are many reasons. Those reasons are exactly why 'OW is dead' is a meme. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hume.2876]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is no way ANYONE should be claiming they have objectively concluded what content more or less fun or rewarding for players. That's absurd because what is fun or rewarding is subjective. That's actually something Anet can and probably does measure to determine how to proceed with developing the game ... including decisions to stop developing content, like raids, as well.

But again, certainly people are still ignoring the idea that this is a business: The objective is to generate revenue. There is no SINGULAR way Anet MUST do that and certainly, no one should be trying to define what content is most 'fun' for people.

 

Absurd? LOL. 

 

 Of course people know what makes video games fun. Its all about overcoming challenges - albeit sometimes minor ones.  They have studies like people trying to put puzzles together that can't be completed (not fun) vs. ones that actually work.  Which do you think would be more fun?! 

 

Arenanet knows this - and so does any other video game designer in the entire world.   So do most intelligent humans. What is more fun completing a jumping puzzle yourself? Or getting ported to the top?  Provided the puzzle is not to hard as to frustrate players - completing the puzzle is way more fun.  This is why a well tuned game will gradually increase the difficulty such that the player will feel that they are overcoming amazing challenges without getting frustrating.

 

If overcoming challenges or solving little puzzles  didn't work you could just stand in one spot - hit the same button and get rewards.  You wouldn't need jumping puzzle, meta events, mount races nothing!  And that would be the whole game.  LOL.  Again the way rpgs work is well known. The way video games work is well know.  It's not any breakthrough here. 

At this point its clear you are just being ridiculously argumentative.  This doesn't mean there is not trade offs.  That was my point with the meta events.  It is objectively more fun to complete a raid (and they could test this by measuring neurotransmitter release in the brain) but only if it wasn't incredibly frustrating to get there.

GW2 is filled with systems like this - the world bosses, the jumping puzzles, PvP, WvW - its all bout that dopamine release you get when you win.  Do you really think people play PvP for the awards?  They like spanking the crap out of the opponents.

 

But there is a huge problem with PvP - you lose at least half the time! So that is frustrating - and not fun at all.  So that is why you have PvE challenges. Everyone can be a winner eventually. 

 

And stop with this business kitten.  It's a lame argument. Arenanet is in the business of producing a fun MMO.  If the game is more fun - more people will play it and they will make more money.  Cosmetics will matter more too - because they will have reasons to get the fancy looking swords and such. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

37 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

Ok, as I said, give me a reason why a veteran player would do a dungeon vs a raids or a strike missions, the rewards on dungeons are not worth the time and when it comes to content, there are better and faster options when it comes to farming. The only reason to go to a dungeon if you're a veteran is assisting someone  or pure nostalgia.

 

But well, let's end it here because we will never agree. 

Why would a veteran player do dungeons at all?  Once they've done them, and gathered the rewards, what incentive would remain?

When you speak of OW content being dead, are you referring to instanced OW content (dungeons/fractals/strikes/raids)?

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

And stop with this business kitten.  It's a lame argument. Arenanet is in the business of producing a fun MMO.  If the game is more fun - more people will play it and they will make more money.  

Um, no it's not lame at all. In fact, it's very important, maybe the most important of all. I'm not debating if the game is fun or not ... that's subjective and based on the individual player. I'm also not going to argue the game would be more fun if Anet focused on instanced content. I don't have evidence that's true ... and neither do you.  But you know who does? Anet ... and I'm sure they are using it to determine what players want. Oh, and as a finisher ... that's a business approach too .. that 'lame' thing you don't think should be considered. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

 

 

And stop with this business kitten.  It's a lame argument. Arenanet is in the business of producing a fun MMO.  If the game is more fun - more people will play it and they will make more money.  Cosmetics will matter more too - because they will have reasons to get the fancy looking swords and such. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But again, as has been stated several times in this very thread, "fun" is subjective.  Anet has all of the metrics and knows where the bulk of their players spend their time and money.  It makes good business sense to continue to develop content that meets those metrics.  Lately, that content seems to be open world content -- stuff that many players appear to enjoy (or find "fun").

Anet is in the business of producing a fun MMO -- it just may not match your particular style or definition of fun. 

[Renegated.4132]

3 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Why would a veteran player do dungeons at all?  Once they've done them, and gathered the rewards, what incentive would remain?

When you speak of OW content being dead, are you referring to instanced OW content (dungeons/fractals/strikes/raids)?

 

I've used the dungeons to put an example, but to use a more general example, what incentive do you get for farming in the ashford plains? And i'm talking about farming, not killing a world boss and bye-bye, see you next time xD

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

I've used the dungeons to put an example, but to use a more general example, what incentive do you get for farming in the ashford plains? And i'm talking about farming, not killing a world boss and bye-bye, see you next time xD

Sure ...  if you exclude the reasons to go there, of course you 'win' an argument there isn't a reason to go. That doesn't mean those reasons don't exist. 🙄That's just nonsense. 

You say some reasons ... then say they don't count. How contrived is that. That's why I'm not going down that path with you. You just dismiss valid reasons to do content because you know you are wrong. Ironically, I was in Ashford the other day ... and there were lots of people doing things there. I don't know why, I don't care why ... but they were. You are just wrong. OW is not dead. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Of course you aren't talking about those things ... if you exclude the reasons to go there, of course you 'win' an argument there isn't a reason to go. That's nonsense. 

 

If the OW the only thing that can offer to the veterans it's a huge piñata every X hours when it comes to content, it's basically offer nothing. A map has to be more than just a huge boss on it.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

If the OW the only thing that can offer to the veterans it's a huge piñata every X hours when it comes to content, it's basically offer nothing. A map has to be more than just a huge boss on it.

OK ... but that doesn't change the fact that OW isn't dead. There simply isn't room here to dishonestly paint the picture that maps offer nothing because you think veterans don't have a reason to go there. 

I mean, literally your argument is that as long as you have freedom to exclude whatever reasons you want that prove you wrong ... THEN you are right. OK buddy. GL with that 👍

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

5 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

If the OW the only thing that can offer to the veterans it's a huge piñata every X hours when it comes to content, it's basically offer nothing. A map has to be more than just a huge boss on it.

I'm an 8+ year veteran.  Very casual player.  I find open world content offers me a lot of entertainment (or "fun" as you term it), whether a world boss or other event is active or not.  I see a lot of other players on open world maps, too, seeming to find their own enjoyment (or "fun") both during events or when no events are currently running.

You are appearing to advocate for a specific type of content and are using your own confirmation bias of open world being dead to justify Anet implementing what you want.  Good luck with that.

[Renegated.4132]

52 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I'm an 8+ year veteran.  Very casual player.  I find open world content offers me a lot of entertainment (or "fun" as you term it), whether a world boss or other event is active or not.  I see a lot of other players on open world maps, too, seeming to find their own enjoyment (or "fun") both during events or when no events are currently running.

You are appearing to advocate for a specific type of content and are using your own confirmation bias of open world being dead to justify Anet implementing what you want.  Good luck with that.

 

So do I, +5 years (or maybe 6, i don't remember), sadly i'm not that casual. I also find fun in doing the "mad goat" (in spanish is a way to say doing things in plan yolo just for fun) in the OW, but arrives a point where for some of us, the "taste" gets diluded and you want more, and sadly, the core game doesn't give that extra "more" you need since the challenging content (in this case, the bosses) end up being a piñata instead of something really huge, to put an example, on Queen's Vale, the boss's most dangerous attack (and only one if I recall correctly, I don't remember him doing real damage per se) it's a scream. I mean, you are a colossal shadow that is trapped on another dimension/plane/howeveryouwanttonameit due to being a threat... And the best you can do is scream? xD

 

I may have gone too far when saying that "was dead", mea culpa, let me pull the string back, but you can't deny me the fact that, despite of still being enjoyable, it can be better when it comes to "keeping alive" and optimized the past content of the game.

 

To put an example, the shadow, if you win the first fight, a portal opens and you can go to the shadow dimension to fight it at max power, giving you better rewards, if you fail to kill it, the shadow escapes to the normal world and the events change, shadows attacking villages, "mid bosses" spawning here and there and maybe 1/2 hours later, the boss spawns on a field (if possible a huge one), you win, it returns to it's sealing, you lose, it keeps roaming the land.

 

It's not the best update, but it adds an extra spice to the boss and how he interacts with the world.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Renegated.4132

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Have to wonder why a 5-year Vet that prefers 'challenging' content is hanging out in Queensdale, or most of 'Core' Tyria.  I mean, there are plenty of L80 maps in the expansions and Living World. 

[Renegated.4132]

7 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Have to wonder why a 5-year Vet that prefers 'challenging' content is hanging out in Queensdale, or most of 'Core' Tyria.  I mean, there are plenty of L80 maps in the expansions and Living World. 

 

Because I find sad how ANet is leaving the core game there on an corner in plan "This is complete, no need to update or optimize" when things like the shadow or the svanir shaman can be revamped to offer more challenge and therefore, more fun to the fight.

 

Plus, the fact that the boss is on the first map (I said Queen's Vale like i could say the Fireheart Rise or the Cursed Shore) doesn't mean it has to be easy, I mean, it's a world boss, even if it's on the first map it should suppose a threat for the players that has to be taken down by a multitude.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Renegated.4132

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Maybe because Svanir Shaman Chief and Shadow Behemoth or in starter zones? 

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Hume.2876 said:

Do you really think people play PvP for the awards?

Uh, yeah. In fact, that's a pretty big problem at least with ranked sPvP. Rather than actually enjoying the mode (which is hard to do, given wintrading shenanigans at plat+, poor balance all over, low population, bots, etc) a lot of people are there only to farm ranked chests. In fact, that's why the bots are there too, to farm rewards.

Your comment might be relevant for unranked, but even there the rewards are substantial. Farming reward tracks gives you tidal waves of xp tomes (so you can insta-80 any new alts for free, no gem store boost required), transmute charges (fashion wars for people who haven't made enough legendaries yet), and end reward chests containing mystic clovers and all sorts of other desirables.

[Renegated.4132]

1 minute ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Maybe because Svanir Shaman Chief and Shadow Behemoth or in starter zones? 

 

As I said on the previous answer, despite of being on the first map, they are world bosses, they are supposed to represent a threat that has to be taken down with an army, and I've seen maps where the shadow was literally vanquished with a squad of 10-12.

 

That it has to be somehow easy due to being one of the first bosses, ok, but it doesn't need to be THAT easy xD

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

As I said on the previous answer, despite of being on the first map, they are world bosses, they are supposed to represent a threat that has to be taken down with an army, and I've seen maps where the shadow was literally vanquished with a squad of 10-12.

 

That it has to be somehow easy due to being one of the first bosses, ok, but it doesn't need to be THAT easy xD

That might all be true .. but that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed right? I mean, whether 'old' content scales properly for skill/gear/level/number of players has nothing to do with focusing on OW or instanced group content. Seems like you are in the wrong place here. IF anything ... if OW was dynamic enough to consider all these factors to be 'challenging' to people, that's actually a reason to NOT focus on instanced group content. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hume.2876]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Um, no it's not lame at all. In fact, it's very important, maybe the most important of all. I'm not debating if the game is fun or not ... that's subjective and based on the individual player. I'm also not going to argue the game would be more fun if Anet focused on instanced content. I don't have evidence that's true ... and neither do you.  But you know who does? Anet ... and I'm sure they are using it to determine what players want. Oh, and as a finisher ... that's a business approach too .. that 'lame' thing you don't think should be considered. 

 

It's a lame argument because a fun game and a profitable game are one and the same.  Fun might be subjective to individual players but game designers are entirely aware of what they need to do to make things fun in general.  It's quite predictable in the aggregrate.  Why do you think they have jumping puzzles, or the activities in zones etc.  All of these are challenges that you are meant to overcome.  It's game design 101.

 

A jumping puzzle is a very simple example.. You have groups of people that find them too hard - its not fun for them. You have some other people that find them way to easy. It's not fun for them either. But then there is a group of people that find it enjoyable. Why? Because its challenging enough to be fun - but not just a matter of hitting buttons.

 

It's pretty basic stuff. Pretending that they can only use "metrics" is a lame as kitten argument. You cannot design games by focus groups. People don't know they want things until they can try them.  People wanted a faster horse back right before they started making cars. 

Did you play GW1? Do you think they used "focus groups" or "metrics" to design that game? LMAO.  The designers made a game they wanted to play. Then when they couldn't do everything they wanted to do in that game they made GW2.  This game was never designed via metrics. All of this is well documented in various gaming articles and such.  They wanted things like a z axis and action combat and so on and so forth.

 

Metrics? World of Warcraft tried running metrics about their raids and kitten - and have been bleeding players for a years now.   It's all about building good fun content.  Fun is not in the eye of the beholder - its not random.  If the challenge is not to tough - but not to easy its enjoyable. This is the principle of all MMOs, video games, etc etc.  Likewise if they designer and internal staff think say this dungeon or instance is amazingly fun - you can bet that a good number of people on the outside think it is fun as well.  

 

Now when you design a game based on metrics - and don't actually play it yourself - that is when you run into huge problems.  

[Hume.2876]

2 hours ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

As I said on the previous answer, despite of being on the first map, they are world bosses, they are supposed to represent a threat that has to be taken down with an army, and I've seen maps where the shadow was literally vanquished with a squad of 10-12.

 

That it has to be somehow easy due to being one of the first bosses, ok, but it doesn't need to be THAT easy xD

They could probably revamp but its just not high on the priority list. 

 

It's a pain to tune open world content.  Let's imagine that you want that boss to be challenging? When it probably is challenging for 15 level appropriate characters - it's in the newbie zone. But when people come with full ascended gear they can steam roll it. 

 

This is why they have instances.. Want more challenge? You do some instanced content.

 

GW2 designers and developers are just limited in what they can do in the open world.  There are too many variables to control.  You can basically only make a loot pinata or some fairly easy to do events. Yes in theory you can make more difficult events like triple trouble - but because you are counting on people passing by to defeat it - you end up with frustrated players with that approach. 

 

I have seen guilds trying to get empty maps for that and trying to persuade people not on that map to leave. Which makes sense..as the encounter will scale based on the number of players on the map.

 

It's hard to tune the encounters beyond a certain level in the OW.  As I said before Silverwastes was about as good as it could get. 

 

This is why GW1 was so popular, IMHO. Everything was constructed for instances - giving the developer a tremendous advantage as far as crafting the content goes.

 

This made the game feel INCREDIBLY fun. That is why we have GW2 - because of the success of GW.

 

Is there any open world content that is not just a numbers game at this point? Is there any content that can fail when you have say 25 people trying it?  I am thinking maybe triple trouble. Maybe the Marionette before..that.

 

If you go with just open world zones - its like tying on hand behind your back and getting in a fight. You will still be able to beat up some competitors if you are an excellent fighter. But there is no reason to thwart your chances of success like that.

It's a tough world out there.  Riot Games is working on an MMO - they have more money then Blizzard - and very strong IP - and experience with complex systems.  I don't want to see Arenanet gimping their own game.

 

The question that they have to ask themselves is not what the metrics are - but how can we deliver engaging interesting and fun content to our customers?  I mean hey maybe they can surprise us.  The mount stuff was pretty cool. But I'd like to see them use every tool in their toolbox. 

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Hume.2876 said:

This is why GW1 was so popular, IMHO. Everything was constructed for instances - giving the developer a tremendous advantage as far as crafting the content goes.

 

This made the game feel INCREDIBLY fun. That is why we have GW2 - because of the success of GW.

 

 

Again, fun is highly subjective.  I am a GW1 vet, too, and I vastly prefer the open world style game of GW2 over its predecessor.  I find GW2 to be "incredibly fun" to use your term.  I despised instanced content, even more when heroes were introduced.  What wast the point, then?  GW1 became a single-player game and was no longer a MMO (yes, it could be argued that it was never a MMO to begin with, but that's another thread).

If anything, I want more open world content.  I have never raided and probably never will raid.  I think I may have done one strike mission, and maybe 2-3 dungeons.  I have only dabbled in fractals to see what they are, and haven't progressed beyond the eighth one because it no longer had any entertainment value for me.  Heck, I've never completed the personal story on any character, many of which stalled at stupid Claw Island.

Instanced content has little, if any, value to me.  I'm glad that Anet provides such for those players who do enjoy it even though it disappoints me that resources are spent to do so that might be better used for open world -- my preferred content.

But Anet knows how many players engage in which type of content and they will continue to develop whatever content will bring in the most revenue for their shareholders because without them, the game truly dies.  At the end of the day, Anet will do whatever they must to bring in that revenue, not cater to some forums poster's desire for the content that is the most fun for them.

Anyway, to me it seems that you either don't understand this idea or refuse to acknowledge it.  In either case, I wish you the best of luck with your request. 

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Hume.2876 said:

The question that they have to ask themselves is not what the metrics are - but how can we deliver engaging interesting and fun content to our customers?

 

 

Metrics answer this question.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

It's a lame argument because a fun game and a profitable game are one and the same.  Fun might be subjective to individual players but game designers are entirely aware of what they need to do to make things fun in general. 

That doesn't make sense. No, fun does not lead to profitability. Profitability is a WAY more complicated function that just determining if something is fun.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Luthan.5236]

GW1 and GW2 are just 2 different types (genres) of games. I have to admit: I only "recently" (2019) started to play GW1. Still have a lot to do there. Doing it for the HoM and to explore the lore. Gameplay feels okay ... but stuff like the cartographer title ... a bit too grindy. (Almost impossible without the help of that one external tool to check.)

My GW1 account is from at release though. Got killed too often with the henchmen vs charr in Ascalon at the beginning back then and then went to other games. I think I even bought the collectors edition. (Some special stuff for the character - visually. I think.) I think they did not describe it as MMORPG. More like a "cooperative rpg" or something like that.

Because it does not only have "lots of instanced" content ... everything besides the outposts is instanced. (Well technically they are as well - different zones for the regions and stuff.) Basically similar to an "offline" RPG with multiplayer mode. (Neverwinter Nights or something like that.) + the grind stuff (being able to to stuff repeatedly to gather materials) on top that usually comes with MMORPGs.

Being able to have a lot of players at the same map where you actually play (or groupe by servers - WvW used/uses this with the "Worlds" soon "Alliances") is what makes GW2 "massively multiplayer".

GW1 at max an "ORPG" (cause you need to be online) and the term CORPG fits I think. (Cooperative ... or competitive. According to the GW1 Wiki.)

Edited January 9, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Linken.6345]

20 hours ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

I've used the dungeons to put an example, but to use a more general example, what incentive do you get for farming in the ashford plains? And i'm talking about farming, not killing a world boss and bye-bye, see you next time xD

One thing to do in plains of ashford is kill stuff and get tier 1 materials you can then upgrade to tier 2 materials that is worth more.

Might not be worth it anymore with how drizzlewood coast map throw all kinds of tier materials at you nowdays tho.