The Core trait holding the Untamed back

[Raiken.1476]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fortifying_Bond

Fortifying Bond in Nature Magic. This trait causes the pet to gain the ranger's boons. So why is it holding the Untamed back? 

 

Simply enough, if the Untamed should have a powerful pet, this trait is pretty much necessary for the pet to be not only stronger, but also consistent in its power. However, it's not worth picking the Nature Magic trait line for this trait alone, and it provides little synergy with the elite specialization otherwise. The Untamed does not have any support qualities of its own, and is thus relegated to a damage dealing role in PvE and a mixed damaging and defensive role in competitive modes. To fix this, the trait should ideally be added to a minor trait in the Untamed specialization, and replaced within Nature Magic. This will allow the Untamed to actually be the spec for the Ranger that improves the pet, while also boosting its only worth for a team in its damage. 

 

As for the trait's functionality, it should work in a similar manner to the Mechanist's boon sharing, to provide more consistency between the player's and pet's boons.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Raiken.1476

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Protective Ward is certainly worth taking. That along with the right gear, runes, and utilities can perma upkeep protection. 

[anduriell.6280]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Protective Ward is certainly worth taking. That along with the right gear, runes, and utilities can perma upkeep protection. 

Why some people keep thinking those builds from years ago are still a thing in the game. 

Perma protection is not a thing anymore, boon(ranger) is not a thing from very long time (years at least) . 

Protective_Ward this trait is like the pewpew noobstomper , only works against new players. Any other player with a minimal experience will bait the proc of that trait successfully 99% of the time. That's the thing about passive procs, they are kinda of introductory tutorial to any class.  That's why i recommended at some point to rework the signets so they behave in similar way, so new players get some breathing room to learn to manage the pets. 

6 hours ago, Raiken.1476 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fortifying_Bond

Fortifying Bond in Nature Magic. This trait causes the pet to gain the ranger's boons. So why is it holding the Untamed back? 

Actually It isn't that,   untamed is holding untamed back. The whole elite is.

I do agree with the OP in what I think he/she/they are sharing about Fortifying_Bond should become baseline in core. It does help so much the pets to be more consistent in general. Pets feel better that way.  But untamed will need so much more to work out in end. Or it will be a Bunker Druid 2.0 and be totally destroyed and forgotten few months after EoD launch. 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[InsaneQR.7412]

Fortyfying Bond should have been baseline from the start OR another option would be that they would change WhaO into a signet with the passive effect of Fortyfying Bond and its current active effect.

Although making Fortyfying Bond baseline would be better.

I'll be honest if i say that the Boonshare function of WhaO is to good to trade it off for other heals 80% of the time and that treating pets as an extension of the ranger in terms of boons would be a very good streamlining method. No doubling up, but if one gets it, the other gets it too.

[Beddo.1907]

Yeah no. Even with that trait in the Untamed kit there would be close to no difference and is not holding back the Untamed. 

But I'd love to see that trait removed and turned into a core mechanic (I'd add a trait that improves the mechanic further in that slot). If the pet received 1:1 copy of the boons Ranger receives/gives in return for no longer receiving boons itself, it would remove the problem with boon priority (pet getting boons instead of another player) and pet being out of range for the boons ranger gives.

And while we are at it a fix to some boons giving absolutely nothing (Quickness and Vigor[but mostly Quickness]) would also be great.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@anduriell.6280, discussion is about nature magic and why the OP feels like FB is holding back untamed. My point is that Protective Ward is ridiculously easy access to Protection, that can very easily be upkept with minimal boon duration with a few other core sources of protection.

 

But hey, if you don't want the easiest source of protection in the game then don't take it. No skin off my back.

[Beddo.1907]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@anduriell.6280, discussion is about nature magic and why the OP feels like FB is holding back untamed. My point is that Protective Ward is ridiculously easy access to Protection, that can very easily be upkept with minimal boon duration with a few other core sources of protection.

 

But hey, if you don't want the easiest source of protection in the game then don't take it. No skin off my back.

Ok but why would you want to use so much resources for perma Prot.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Ok but why would you want to use so much resources for perma Prot.

My point is that there isn't much more needed, and there are several ways to do it. Besides prot is a pretty great boon to have, don't discount it.

[Beddo.1907]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

My point is that there isn't much more needed, and there are several ways to do it. Besides prot is a pretty great boon to have, don't discount it.

Yeah it's a good boon but I think you are not doing your math right for the prot upkeep.

[Infusion.7149]

If your assessment is correct then core ranger wouldn't be a meta build right now. The things holding back Untamed are not related to core ranger.


Also why would you use Nature Magic over beast mastery, which boosts pet stats unconditionally while also providing movement speed and ferocity? Swiftness is +33% movement speed , Pet's Prowess is 30% all the time.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Yeah it's a good boon but I think you are not doing your math right for the prot upkeep.

Then you need to brush up on your build-fu, because it does not take as much as you think it does.

[Beddo.1907]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Then you need to brush up on your build-fu, because it does not take as much as you think it does.

Ok but you can tell me your math.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Ok but you can tell me your math.

Go solve the puzzle on your own. It isn't too hard.

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Go solve the puzzle on your own. It isn't too hard.

I take it as "I actually didn't do any math and I was wrong, but this is internet so I can just pretend". 

And so far the lowest trade off for perma Prot is 10-30% damage loss on DPS.

So the only explanation would be that you use boonbeast math, but when applied to Untamed you would need to trade off stats for conc since you don't have Moa Stance. But let's assume you use Mara gear and BP runes or PBD runes, only prot from that trait, Wilderness Survival for 2nd trait line, we use WHAO, no Untamed stuff and stats are rounded up:

(runes 15/25% BD + conc 0-550=0-37% BD * 4s)+WHAO(runes 15/25% BD + conc 0-550=0-37% BD * 3s)~=7,5-10,8s

(runes 30% PBD + conc 0-504=0-34% BD * 4s)+WHAO(runes 30% PBD + conc 0-504=0-34% BD * 3s)~=9,1-11,4s

Both are under 15s which doesn't let you trigger PW for new prot.

So you need more Conc with takes away damage, hp or toughness from gear, which means you sacrifice way too much to make perma prot worth it.

Until you actually bother to show your math to compare it, I'm correct with my assumption.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I take it as "I actually didn't do any math and I was wrong, but this is internet so I can just pretend". 

And so far the lowest trade off for perma Prot is 10-30% damage loss on DPS.

So the only explanation would be that you use boonbeast math, but when applied to Untamed you would need to trade off stats for conc since you don't have Moa Stance. But let's assume you use Mara gear and BP runes or PBD runes, only prot from that trait, Wilderness Survival for 2nd trait line, we use WHAO, no Untamed stuff and stats are rounded up:

(runes 15/25% BD + conc 0-550=0-37% BD * 4s)+WHAO(runes 15/25% BD + conc 0-550=0-37% BD * 3s)~=7,5-10,8s

(runes 30% PBD + conc 0-504=0-34% BD * 4s)+WHAO(runes 30% PBD + conc 0-504=0-34% BD * 3s)~=9,1-11,4s

Both are under 15s which doesn't let you trigger PW for new prot.

So you need more Conc with takes away damage, hp or toughness from gear, which means you sacrifice way too much to make perma prot worth it.

Until you actually bother to show your math to compare it, I'm correct with my assumption.

 

It's more of not pulling an obtena and derailing a thread. I have dinner company at the moment, so I'll get back to you in more detail later.

 

Edit:

So company is gone, kid is in bed, and spent obligatory time with the wife so I have more time.
You take the time to use Wilderness Survival, but seem to neglect adding Companion's Defense into your math? You're using WvW numbers, so I'll do so as well. I'll even use Wilderness Survival along with Nature Magic like you did.

I also apologize for the wall of text that follows.

Full Berserker gear, Runes of Durability, Potent Lucent Oil, Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew (not boon duration related but very important). You'll have 31.67% boon duration due to Nature Magic's concentration bonus.

PW: 5.25s/15s CD
Protect Me: 5.25s/ 30s CD
Companion's Defense: 2.75s/5s CD *See note below
WHAO: 2.75s/ 30s CD
Runes of Durability: 4s/ 20s CD.

* You'll also have perma vigor between Spirited Arrival, Lightning Reflexes and WHAO. Along with the stew you'll be able to dodge an attack every 5s if you never auto attack. Total of 100% increased endurance gain, so 10% a second, or 5s to get 50 endurance back. It's overcapped, but that just covers some of the penalty of weakness if you get hit with it. If you hit with the third strike of the AA chain on GS between dodges then you get to dodge every 3.5s. I've never had the chance to see if you get more than 15 for striking multiple foes, but if you get GS AA chains in there then dodging attacks alone is a 78.6% uptime of protection. See why not adding in Companion's Defense was a mistake?

So, perma prot as long as you aren't a stick in the mud. Easier if you take boon duration armor, trinkets or weapons of course since less dodging would be involved. Beast Mastery for Resounding Timber helps, but actively proccing Companion's Defense is better. You used WvW numbers, and going full glass there is generally a mistake, but Durability Runes are pretty solid defense  putting you at roughly Warrior baseline stats as a Ranger. That coupled with being able to dodge every 3.5 seconds and perma prot is pretty tanky even in Berserker gear otherwise. But if you want more toughness/HP then swap out for Wanderer's pieces and  contemplate taking Skirmishing for Viscious Quarry.

I didn't bring weapon type into the discussion other than the AA on GS, but you have an evade and 3s block on GS if you are uneasy about blowing dodges to upkeep protection. Sword/Dagger can give you three more evades as well. You can do this with any weapon though.

There are more ways to do it, but I figured doing it with Berserker gear first would prove the point better.



 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Finally have time.

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's more of not pulling an obtena and derailing a thread. I have dinner company at the moment, so I'll get back to you in more detail later.

So...@Obtena has finally achieved meme status...brilliant ....

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

So...@Obtena has finally achieved meme status...brilliant ....

Obtena'ing a thread has been a meme for a while on the warrior forums FWIW.

[Lazze.9870]

Great discovery. I only mentioned it as one of dozens of things holding a "pet elite spec" back when people became angry because we're too "unimagineative" when claiming that a pet spec doesn't work straight out of the gate. Unfortuneately it is arguably too strong to be baseline as well, so Anet painted themselves into a corner - again.

There isn't a core trait holding Untamed back, it is the core mechanic holding it back. Not because the spec doesn't work, the spec works fine for what it is, but because it fails at what Anet wanted it to be (a team fight bruiser) - essentially because it still is core ranger and everything that isn't new about the mechanic (the new pet skills, aoe boon rip, projectile block dome etc... imagine if they were given to us through an entirely new mechanic with no pets...) are nonoptimal. I see it more as a slightly different way to play core ranger with some new fun tools, this time those tools are extended to the pet mechanic instead of leaving it as is with druid (which was also a mistake).

But yeah, if they ever were to do an actual "pet elite spec" (please don't), then yes, Fortifying Bond being a requirement to maxmize the pet's performance is one of several issues.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Beddo.1907]

On 12/28/2021 at 11:41 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

, but seem to neglect adding Companion's Defense into your math?

I didn't neglect it. I decided not to include it because:

1. The dodge animation takes time

2. You can't proc the PW while evading (or at least it didn't work that way in pvp lobby)

3. Dodge is better to be used for cleanse

Honestly I didn't think about a dodge based build to add more prot, but that's mostly because of:

1. Quite low damage (most traits and runes are used for pure defence and sustain)

2. If you fight againts something like Condi Druid you can't use dodge and...

Overall I still don't agree that this a good build without soulbeast tools. (I did see a Dodgebeast build and while it's not as good as alternatives it is quite fun)

Anyway wrong post to argue about it.

[Infusion.7149]

Just a thought experiment, is it really necessary to copy EVERY boon just for untamed damage?

I think that ultimately quickness and fury uptime are what is lacking. Arguably quickness wouldn't be given to the pet since it's partly balanced based off animations (outside of Quickening Zephyr / Lesser Quickening Zephyr which do affect the pet and are commonly run in competitive modes but are rare in PVE), so that leaves fury (which is applied from "Strength of the pack" and Lesser Clarion Bond in smallscale). Opening Strike works around crit chance by ensuring a critical, so the improved pet control already capitalizes on this.

Might can be shared via Potent Ally trait and "Strength of the pack" even if you don't use "We Heal as One" and arguably swiftness isn't that amazing if you run Beastmastery which is +30% movement speed already ; Ferocious Symbiosis is +25% max movement speed which is mediocre.

Defensively, if you run Wilderness Survival the pet already gets prot when you dodge.

[Beddo.1907]

18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Arguably quickness wouldn't be given to the pet since it's partly balanced based off animations

Fun fact, Quickness does not work on most pets.

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Fun fact, Quickness does not work on most pets.

Untamed doesn't have autocast pet skills , are you saying even autoattack damage is unaffected?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I didn't neglect it. I decided not to include it because:

1. The dodge animation takes time

2. You can't proc the PW while evading (or at least it didn't work that way in pvp lobby)

3. Dodge is better to be used for cleanse

Honestly I didn't think about a dodge based build to add more prot, but that's mostly because of:

1. Quite low damage (most traits and runes are used for pure defence and sustain)

2. If you fight againts something like Condi Druid you can't use dodge and...

Overall I still don't agree that this a good build without soulbeast tools. (I did see a Dodgebeast build and while it's not as good as alternatives it is quite fun)

Anyway wrong post to argue about it.

Wrong post, hence my Obtena comment. That said, it's just one way of doing it. You don't need Soulbeast to perma prot on Ranger, just some boon duration and prot sources.

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Untamed doesn't have autocast pet skills , are you saying even autoattack damage is unaffected?

I believe only ranged pets and wywerns have autoattacks that are affected by Quickness.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I believe only ranged pets and wywerns have autoattacks that are affected by Quickness.

Quickness or not, this untamed bench has the jacaranda doing 3.5K

Full boons in first beta , 5K on golem bench

First beta (before buffs and changes) = 2K Jacaranda vs 4.3K competition bench

Given that you aren't forced to use a particular pet I would say that is not the primary issue. Full DPS condi mech with shift signet currently outputs 7K from the Mech, where the log includes the active mech commands as part of the Mech.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Infusion.7149