So er, are people content with Core Legends being dogshit in Competitive? A Shiro discussion.

[BobbyT.7192]

Mind if I change topic here? I want ask what people feel about how revenants have 4 utility skill lines while other professions has 5. I sure this has been talked about before.

Are revenant fine with this?

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Mind if I change topic here? I want ask what people feel about how revenants have 4 utility skill lines while other professions has 5. I sure this has been talked about before.

Are revenant fine with this?

It is the design of the class, im ok with it, that should not be a issue at all being its  4 utilities and legend based, but that's the reason many of us actually feels revs needs a QoL towards core legends, and probably some minor QoL on  its elites as well but IMO core needs Anet to step up their trade offs.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

16 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Mind if I change topic here? I want ask what people feel about how revenants have 4 utility skill lines while other professions has 5. I sure this has been talked about before.

Are revenant fine with this?

Personally I’ve never been okay with this once I realized it.  It wasn’t necessarily extremely obvious at first though because Rev released with both Core and Herald, so there were a ton of options right away and everything was new.  The class was also extremely strong on release as well which largely made up for this downside.  These things made it unfortunately too easy to overlook the fact early on that Rev is essentially missing an entire skill type AND its 4th utility for each of its existing legends.  I don’t remember seeing much talk about this at all back then and I’d assume that these factors are the main reason. 
 

However, as time has gone on it’s become apparent that the class just doesn’t receive the same attention as many of the other classes.  Between the game breaking bugs on so many parts of the class and the lack of parity between its build options and other classes Anet shows time and time again that they don’t care and that building Revenant to have similar depth as the other classes is an extremely low priority for them.  It’s just sad honestly 

[Jobber.6348]

20 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

My issue is core rev doesnt really have a "core" legend with it that works as a +1 to every other legend. This forces every elite legend to be that "+1" that has to be a jack of all trades sorta legend/traitline which makes the elite specs kinda undistinguished in their roles and what they provide. So now we have 3 elite specs that are all competing for the same spot and whatever one is tuned the best will be used with every build whether its condi, power, boon support, or healing, which surpisingly renegade does better than everything else. The only difference is that herald works a little better in a wvw environment in a mechanical sense because its not dependant on summoned, stationary spirits that can be cc'd and melted. But alacrity alone makes renegade a better boon support than herald despite the constant pulsing of boons from herald. 

But looking at core's legends, jalis and shiro are the only combo that really works together with the traitlines and weapons available just due to how stats work.  Ventari as a selfless healer with not a lot of impactful selfish survivability makes it a bad choice when wanting to increase your personal suvivability on a damaging build, and ventari lacks a second legend to make an effective support build for core basically making it a legend that's only useful when combined with elite spec legends.

Mallyx suffers similarly with synergy on core, but condi happens to be good enough for it to still be effective, but it just feels lacking. Your second legend when combined with mallyx is just taking whatever isn't the worst and not necessarily something that synergizes with it. Jalis will improve the condi tanking aspect, shiro can help stick to targets and increase amount of striks with IO, but honestly none of them feel like they fit well. 

Jalis and shiro work well together only because they are both power oriented and hammers+battlescars provides huge sustainability and easy damage. 

So yeah, all in all I do think that a lot of core legends are lacking, but I think the bigger issue is that most core legends lack a good pairing and so every elite spec tries to solve this by making a legend that is universally complimentary. The only redeeming aspect to all of this is that due to revenant's static skill bars and Anet having full control over skill interactions so there isn't many outlying OP skill combos, revenant gains access to some cool and unique skill effects that would otherwise be broken on other professions.

This is the sort of thing I mean when people are starting to see Legends as complimentary of each other than actually being full fledged "miniclasses" on their own.

 

If that's the case, the entire Legend concept falls right out the bottom because you can't force Mallyx, Condi Demon of Torment, to possibly behave similarly to Jallis, a Dwarf King.

 

What I would rather have is this :

- Weapons using normal cooldowns but no Energy.

- Legend utilities are the only thing that cost Energy

- Utility costs are fairly standardized but fitting to the power of the skill

- Legend Swap is 20 seconds instead of 10 seconds

 

What this does is make each Legend play independently.

 

If I'm Shiro, I'm gonna be mobile and going for burst damage. I should be able to upkeep this playstyle without burning through all my Energy in 5s and having to regen. 

 

If I Legend swap, I made the commitment to change my playstyle and have to live with it for 20s, but I am able to sustain and upkeep that playstyle without running completely dry in 1 or 2 skills.

 

At least, this is how I envisioned Revenant was supposed to be played from launch and somehow over the years this evolved into Swapping Legends every 10s to keep the pressure up.

 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

This is the sort of thing I mean when people are starting to see Legends as complimentary of each other than actually being full fledged "miniclasses" on their own.

 

If that's the case, the entire Legend concept falls right out the bottom because you can't force Mallyx, Condi Demon of Torment, to possibly behave similarly to Jallis, a Dwarf King.

 

What I would rather have is this :

- Weapons using normal cooldowns but no Energy.

- Legend utilities are the only thing that cost Energy

- Utility costs are fairly standardized but fitting to the power of the skill

- Legend Swap is 20 seconds instead of 10 seconds

 

What this does is make each Legend play independently.

 

If I'm Shiro, I'm gonna be mobile and going for burst damage. I should be able to upkeep this playstyle without burning through all my Energy in 5s and having to regen. 

 

If I Legend swap, I made the commitment to change my playstyle and have to live with it for 20s, but I am able to sustain and upkeep that playstyle without running completely dry in 1 or 2 skills.

 

At least, this is how I envisioned Revenant was supposed to be played from launch and somehow over the years this evolved into Swapping Legends every 10s to keep the pressure up.

 

The issue still arises with how are you gonna build your stats to make two completely different legends work well. That's the reason people focus on complimentary classes because in the case of mallyx, no other core legend is gonna benefit from condi stats.

I don't necessarily think your idea is bad like conceptually, but at that point why even have legend swap. And what would be the purpose of swapping to a secondary legend that your stats aren't gerared towards and being stuck in that legend for 20 seconds.

[Jobber.6348]

46 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

I don't necessarily think your idea is bad like conceptually, but at that point why even have legend swap. And what would be the purpose of swapping to a secondary legend that your stats aren't gerared towards and being stuck in that legend for 20 seconds.

Which is why I mentioned in my earlier post that the entire Legends system was fundamentally flawed. 

There actually is room for hybrids for Revenant though, as seen with Hybrid Herald which uses Abyssal Chill to supplement Condi application while they use Power to boost their normal basic attacks. This build can also be run on Core, so the build direction is quite sound. 

I've also seen others suggest before that Weapons themselves should be given the Trident treatment and apply Conditions based on the Legend. This means Shiro will apply Vuln, Jalis will apply Cripple, Glint burning, Mallyx Torment, Ventari Blindness etc. etc. 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:01 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Which is why I mentioned in my earlier post that the entire Legends system was fundamentally flawed. 
(...)
 

Why? because its diferent from setup the gimmick build? :P

 

IMo the only issue is that Anet forgot the trade offs they were talking about or at least balance them out, no need for a extra utility just QoL the current ones.

Edit: Having utilities based on legend swap is actually cool kinda remembers Dervish elite form but this time changind the skills rather than have a passive towards the elite transformantion.

Also its  3 to 4 utilities plus one heal and one elite skill not 4 to 5 utils, and some classes dont have a correspondent heal nor elite towards that utility line like guardian consecrations for example, at least we ended with a complete/finished set :) .

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Tescao.3042]

I want to leave here a little observation of the depth deviation. You all know about the skill called Gaze of Darkness, which has in its arsenal the ability to open stealth - reveal. If reveal is associated with darkness in the case of rev, then why can't Mallyx have reveal in his set, which is the full manifestation of darkness!
It is also very strange to have stacks of vulnerability on this skill, in contrast to the possibility of having torment.

[The Boz.2038]

On 1/15/2022 at 1:03 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

This is the sort of thing I mean when people are starting to see Legends as complimentary of each other than actually being full fledged "miniclasses" on their own.

 

If that's the case, the entire Legend concept falls right out the bottom because you can't force Mallyx, Condi Demon of Torment, to possibly behave similarly to Jallis, a Dwarf King.

 

What I would rather have is this :

- Weapons using normal cooldowns but no Energy.

- Legend utilities are the only thing that cost Energy

- Utility costs are fairly standardized but fitting to the power of the skill

- Legend Swap is 20 seconds instead of 10 seconds

 

What this does is make each Legend play independently.

 

If I'm Shiro, I'm gonna be mobile and going for burst damage. I should be able to upkeep this playstyle without burning through all my Energy in 5s and having to regen. 

 

If I Legend swap, I made the commitment to change my playstyle and have to live with it for 20s, but I am able to sustain and upkeep that playstyle without running completely dry in 1 or 2 skills.

 

At least, this is how I envisioned Revenant was supposed to be played from launch and somehow over the years this evolved into Swapping Legends every 10s to keep the pressure up.

 

Energy costs on weapon skills is just soo... ugh. 

Should have just done an inverted thief initiative: 0 energy weapons, energy on heal/utils/elite and Fs.

It is absolutely silly how using weapon skills in Shiro/Jalis is disincentivized.

[Shao.7236]

6 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Energy costs on weapon skills is just soo... ugh. 

Should have just done an inverted thief initiative: 0 energy weapons, energy on heal/utils/elite and Fs.

It is absolutely silly how using weapon skills in Shiro/Jalis is disincentivized.

But then utilities would cost even more,  because you'd have too much energy otherwise. The point of energy cost on weapons is so that you can't just mash anything without being punished somehow, it's already a given that even from 0% in 2 seconds you already have 10% which is plenty to fully re-sustain with Staff/Hammer alone.

 

I can see where you are coming from with Thief but unlike Thief, much of Revenant weapons at the very base were built to be all around complete because originally the profession wouldn't get weapon swaps. They are strong and having no cost associated to them would bloat the profession a lot in it's ability to do different things at once. The bottleneck is there so Revenant can't freely do anything without consequence, Thief on the other hand can't spam utility or only shortly spam weapon skills.

[Zenith.7301]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:27 AM, Shao.7236 said:

But then utilities would cost even more,  because you'd have too much energy otherwise. The point of energy cost on weapons is so that you can't just mash anything without being punished somehow, it's already a given that even from 0% in 2 seconds you already have 10% which is plenty to fully re-sustain with Staff/Hammer alone.

 

I can see where you are coming from with Thief but unlike Thief, much of Revenant weapons at the very base were built to be all around complete because originally the profession wouldn't get weapon swaps. They are strong and having no cost associated to them would bloat the profession a lot in it's ability to do different things at once. The bottleneck is there so Revenant can't freely do anything without consequence, Thief on the other hand can't spam utility or only shortly spam weapon skills.

lmao, thief weaponskills are some of the most overloaded and strongest weaponskills in the game, on top of their utilities and heal and elite skills on top.

 

Rev energy is literally a worse version of initiative, especially since it suffers from the same drawbacks of initiative (doesn't scale with alacrity), but you have far fewer traits to return energy than thieves have to return initiative.

 

Moreover, initiative allows thieves to back to back chain most of their powerful skills. Revenant gains no such benefit, courtesy of CD's on most of their defensive and offensive skills.

[Shao.7236]

2 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

lmao, thief weaponskills are some of the most overloaded and strongest weaponskills in the game, on top of their utilities and heal and elite skills on top

Yeah? Would love to see them play without the overdue Blind duration nerf or see how they can frontline anything without dying in 2 seconds.

 

Quote

Rev energy is literally a worse version of initiative, especially since it suffers from the same drawbacks of initiative (doesn't scale with alacrity), but you have far fewer traits to return energy than thieves have to return initiative.

Not even close, if weapon skills had no energy cost, you could easily have a stunbreak every 8 seconds which is unbalanced af and not counting the energy that would stack from just using weapon skills which have built in sustain also. No regards to management at all, no concerns for balance. Completely ignoring the fact that CD's on Thief utility are largely outweighed by Revenants, for every stunbreak Thief gets, Revenant can already get away with more than 2 per utility and that's being generous if we aren't to go with a perfect scenario of 6 stunbreaks per skill otherwise.

 

Quote

Moreover, initiative allows thieves to back to back chain most of their powerful skills. Revenant gains no such benefit, courtesy of CD's on most of their defensive and offensive skills.

You mean skills that can be avoided like everything else? Sure, if anyone stands still like a Golem that could mean something but who as a Thief would use all of their most powerful skills at once just to more than likely miss? Saying that like Revenant can't burst at all while afaik 15k burst is easily doable with energy to spare without legend swapping.

 

[Zaret.1450]

ok first of all,  i havent read all of the proposals so if i miss anything sry.

now if i were to rework shiro id make riptose shadows and phase traversal into one skill, you all saw how willbender has a similar skill, first evades and stunbreak and later dash towards target, rev has tons of movility so it wouldt hurt that much, IO is basicaly the only usefull skill on pve for power revs and overall its good, id change the heal to be a pasive heal and when you active it maybe throw daggers and heal per hit, jade winds id make it pasive too like each strike aplies jade winds stacks and when actived you explode the stacks and petrify the targets with stacks around you, like 0.2 secs per stack and max 7 stacks or so? and an empty slot to make a skill completely new, like a jade strike or smtg