The long range dream is dead with EoD?

[Obtena.7952]

On 1/27/2022 at 1:38 PM, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

We cant consider streamers and entertainment experiments to measure or not the viability of something as i said before.

I'm going to interject ... being able to play builds you want has NOTHING to do with the small number of expectational players  proving the viability of non-meta builds. The idea this can be done is not only for the unicorns ... the threshold for being successful in this game is not dependent on choosing to play meta. Even meta build players must know the builds and encounters to succeed. 

I don't think we can anticipate anything is 'dead' with EoD ... I have seen nothing that makes me think people playing how they want has been changed in any way.  

Edited January 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Avatara.1042]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:02 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

Didn't not state this I simply stated that you can't state a opinon and claim to be a majority. 

Yah. Elementalist got tempest. Warhorn is a ranged weapon and considering at the time sceptre+warhorn was the Condi build it did stand as a ranged build. 

Warrior is getting pistol. 

If these were major factors more proffessions would use range centric builds 

Warrior pistol is a melee weapon.  An extreme one, at that.

[Puck.3697]

29 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Warrior pistol is a melee weapon.  An extreme one, at that.

It's 600 range I thought?. 

[The Boz.2038]

Gunstinger is a 300 range leap (not a finisher) with a melee smack.
Dragon's Roar has spread and self-pushback, making it only useful point blank.

[Puck.3697]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

don't think we can anticipate anything is 'dead' with EoD ... I have seen nothing that makes me think people playing how they want has been changed in any way

 

maybe in story mode / Open world. which is the most Popular ofcourse.

however in Group content such as Fractals / Raids and in More competitive modes (WvWvW and SPVP) its actually massively shown statistically that it has Changed the way people play the game.

Just look at wingman Statistics for example.. it shows a MASSIVE Shfit towards Firebrand / Renegade / Scourge throughout every level of play across the board.

these statistics arent on "top players" "meta pushers" they're Every run done in GW2, and they statistically show the Meta choices every round are over 80% in Popularity continously, u never see even remotely close to a Proper Spread of Proffessions even in Lower more Casual Fractals.

Raids are More balanced ofcourse so have alittle more spread, but u still See quite a Few Changes. which would indicate even basic PUG casual players are moving proffession to proffessino dependent on the meta at hand.

I'd Also argue the Meta in Open world / Soloing etc etc have been made mindlessly easy and tyhe meta hasnt shifted in years.. so we cant measure the truth in that either.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Avatara.1042]

19 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

It's 600 range I thought?. 

It is a horrible melee offhand.  2 skills, one 300 range which feels like much less, and the other point-blank.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Avatara.1042

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Avatara.1042 said:

It is a horrible melee offhand.  2 skills, 1 300 range which feels like much less, and the other point-blank.

Ah Oki my mistake on that one then 

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

While I don't fully agree with the idea that PvE game mode being the be all and end all, as someone who loves PvP and WvW, if this is going to be discussed I also have to raise a question: when has an Elementalist range build ever been truly meta for competitive formats?

You've given a couple of examples yourself (although I remember scepter ele being a thing for a lot longer than you seem to), but more importantly, there's a bit of circular logic in your reasoning. Just because elementalist ranged has been in a sorry state for a long time doesn't mean that this is some sort of natural state of affairs that will be maintained forever because ranged is inherently bad, it's just that the existing elementalist ranged weapons aren't really suited for competitive formats. There are other professions that absolutely do manage to succeed with ranged playstyles in competitive: mesmer, necromancer, ranger, thief, engineer can even pull it off even though they've also had a constant streak of melee-oriented elite specialisations. You could possibly also count shortbow renegade, although they typically carry a staff on their swap for defensive purposes. 

So there's nothing about competitive mode that makes it so that only melee is viable. It's elementalist that's in that position, since while everything else has been powercrept, ranged elementalist has had a nearly exclusive diet of nerfs and table scraps. And when a profession that is advertised as "favours ranged" is one where ranged is approaching nonviability outside of healing and "everything's viable in open world" scenarios*, there's a problem.

 

*With the usual caveat that there's a big gap between "if you get a big enough zerg to carry you, it doesn't matter how bad you are" viable and "can solo legendaries for cats and giggles" viable.

 

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Staff weaver is the current meta build in solo play 

Gonna need a citation there. Every discussion I've seen on the best elementalist build for open world and solo has gone to tempest, usually dagger tempest (sometimes scepter for might stacking for world bosses). Nike, Wooden Potatoes, Vallun (although Vallun did present a weaver build later... but it's a sword weaver) have, from memory, all recommended tempest most for elementalist open world. Every PvE weaver build on metabattle is a sword weaver. Hardstuck lists staff weaver alongside condition tempest as PvE, and has no information on which is 'better': it does specify that staff weaver is harder to play, though.

It's also my personal experience that for general running around in open world, dagger tempest works, while staff (enemies in open world generally move more than in raids, so if you want that damaging field to stay on the enemy, that usually means placing it at your feet so you're basically melee anyway) and sceptre don't work so well.

Yeah, if you want a ranged build with elementalist right now you'd go with staff or sceptre weaver, but that's because they're the least bad choices.

And if you're going to say "if you want a ranged build, why not use staff"... well, if you want a melee build, why not use dagger tempest? Or sword weaver? They're both actually good choices, which their respective elite specialisations are, based on the company's own marketing, designed to do. Why do you need another? You've got your meleementalist builds. I don't see Catalyst being significantly reworked, so you'll soon have three, while ranged builds will still only have taking the table scraps from the melee-oriented (again, this is what their own marketing says these elite specs are supposed to do) elite specialisations. Nobody complained when weaver came along with a melee focus, because hey, spellsword is cool, it's just getting the third in a row (and the big gap between PoF and EoD) that rankles. 

If and when a fourth set comes along, give someone else a frelling turn. Heck, you might even find that a ranged-oriented spec might still bring along some traits and mechanics that can be interesting twist on a classic dagger/X build, just like basically every ranged-oriented elite spec in the game has brought features that people have found ways to work into melee builds.

Edited January 31, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Gonna need a citation there. Every discussion I've seen on the best elementalist build for open world and solo has gone to tempest, usually dagger tempest (sometimes scepter for might stacking for world bosses). Nike, Wooden Potatoes, Vallun (although Vallun did present a weaver build later... but it's a sword weaver) have, from memory, all recommended tempest most for elementalist open world. Every PvE weaver build on metabattle is a sword weaver. Hardstuck lists staff weaver alongside condition tempest as PvE, and has no information on which is 'better': it does specify that staff weaver is harder to play, though.

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/elementalist/staff-weaver-r5/

well tbh its use is pretty obvious.

Meta Events, World Bosses and More are all open world content and staff Weaver Does alot of damage when killing large swarms of adds Or Large hitboxed Targets (I.E Most events and world bosses)

you'd use Staff Weaver when ur Not completely alone as it does More Damage then Tempest realistically at the cost of it doesnt want to be stood in the face of the Enemy. but its still Above anything Story mode or Open world daily content would Demand from you.

 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's also my personal experience that for general running around in open world, dagger tempest works, while staff (enemies in open world generally move more than in raids, so if you want that damaging field to stay on the enemy, that usually means placing it at your feet so you're basically melee anyway) and sceptre don't work so well.

pretty normal.. All Ranged playstyles become melee in Solo play, realistically works that way in every MMORPG lol you just tank hits while casting.

Im sorry but no games gonna offer you a Solo play Ranged experience worth a dime and a New weapon wont change that.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, if you want a ranged build with elementalist right now you'd go with staff or sceptre weaver, but that's because they're the least bad choices.

we are talking content that can be Solo'd Entirely With dps Below 5k, im sorry. but no. Staff and Sceptre are by far Above what your asking them to do. Ope nWorld content is Mindlessly Easymode and Dont require any functional builds or Set ups to partiicpate in. and never will.

dont go talking Open World Content and Start talking as if both these weapons dont still overperform in Open World content, because they do. Because everything is overperforming in there.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If and when a fourth set comes along, give someone else a frelling turn. Heck, you might even find that a ranged-oriented spec might still bring along some traits and mechanics that can be interesting twist on a classic dagger/X build, just like basically every ranged-oriented elite spec in the game has brought features that people have found ways to work into melee builds.

Yes. and this is my point

If they release a New Ranged Elite Specc it just wont be Use its Ranged Weapon

Deadeye. It uses D/P in Solo play lmfao, its Litterally played as a Close Quatre Melee... and only uses Pistol for mobility to get to targets faster.

and thats the example off the top of my head.

Elite Ranged Weapons Rarely are used outside of Meta events and Tagging builds, this is because Ranged builds by nature carry less Sustain and in a World where DPS Is not important the Sustain will always be the priority realistically, Ranged builds would only exist if monsters hit to hard to physically face tank forcing Ranged Playstyles to exist.

but that Sadly will again Never be the Case. melee Weapons are Instant Attacks while Ranged (Should be) Cast times. in a enviroment where things die in a few seconds. its Just not Realistic to pressume a Elite new Ranged Weapon would have any impact.

Staff builds can still do 30k+ DPS. Sceptre builds can still do 30k+ DPS, I mean heck u could likely solo Story mode and Enemies Running around with almost Anything. Prolly could just wield Sceptar and do it with only 3 of ur abilities even.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

With the usual caveat that there's a big gap between "if you get a big enough zerg to carry you, it doesn't matter how bad you are" viable and "can solo legendaries for cats and giggles" viable.

what is this statement?

Open world Content. Can be done by Smacking someones head against ur keyboard Rapidly lol, lets not be a False sense of difficulty on Open world content.

Tbh even if the best Weaver builds struggle here.. i dont get how Dropping a Ranged Squishier Specc on Ele will help that. but yeah i'd imagine Cele Weaver is likely the best methods to soloing a Legendary. but Ur never gonna do it for "Cats and giggles"

The Fundamental Stand of the proffession stands against that, unles we get a elite bolsters Our passive Defensive level which a Ranged Especc defintly wouldnt deliever.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You've given a couple of examples yourself (although I remember scepter ele being a thing for a lot longer than you seem to), but more importantly, there's a bit of circular logic in your reasoning. Just because elementalist ranged has been in a sorry state for a long time doesn't mean that this is some sort of natural state of affairs that will be maintained forever because ranged is inherently bad

 

Its not  circular Logic realistically.

Its the fact that Now they're going HARD down trade off routes, your gonna have to accept being Ranged will intself Trigger a Trade off.

A Ranged Ele weapon, would have No evades, no Increased HP Options in its Traits, and Would not Have any sustain on it (I.E Barrier), ontop of this it would do lower DPS Then a Pure Melee Weapon. because Ranged weapons doing more then melee weapons Would be Power creep which again they've stated they trying to avoid.

The likelyhood of a Ranged Specc would be a Support one if Ele ever got this, Because it'll make Weaver completely redundent making another Pure DPS Ranged Option realistically, espically if its going to out DPS Weaver which it should Not be allowed to do.

Melee have to do more Damage then Ranged. thats Just Balance. you power creep the game if u start applying 40k DPS builds to ranged Weapons. Renegade and Scourge need dealing with on a MAJOR Level to bring their DPS Variants backwards. we dotn need more people travelling in their direction.

U can have a Safe build thats a Optimal Build.

So when u break it down

ELementalist ranged weapon

- Reduced Sustain through lack of Evades / mobility

- Reduced DPS To balance off being Ranged.

What Success are u seeing outside piotiental WvWvW Blobs?... Unless its Broken and In need of nerfing.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Einlanzer.1627]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:35 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

I disagree. A portion of elementalists were wanting a Long Ranged weapon. however the vast majority are very aware that ranged Weapons rarely compete with melee weapons in most enviroments and it'd be very likely the weapon wouldnt be used to any level worth really hoping for.

Elementalist is not a Down state meta. the meme is because Most elementalists Die. not because the Proffession itself lacks the tools to survive. grimjack and many others kinda Prove that this isnt really true. to the "High risk and low results" well tbh no matter how hard it is to play it shouldnt be entitled to being better then other options. to stack.

Renegade, scourge and Firebrand overshadow Every other Option. not just us.

Hes just one example. Where a person trying out GW2 Immediately States he doesnt like the Ranged "mage" options of the Elementalist and Prefers the close quatre combat of Dagger and the idea of Sword.

people have a magical idea, because they want something the majority must be behind them.

However Bellular trying to the game aswell as Zan when trying the game, both Didnt like the ranged weapons.

you seem to forget, GW2 Combat isnt built for ranged Combat, the Winning aspect of the game is its Combat system and the Best combat that shows this off is Melee therefore No, they're not out of touch, Just because u want a ranged weapon, and Some vocal players also want a Ranged Weapon. Does not mean the statisatical Evidence of Those who prefer Melee or Ranged Is in your favour Realistically.

Heres something to remember.

We have Countless Ranged weapons in the game. theres a Reason why Most of them are never used. or combined with melee weapons meaning ur stood in melee regardless. Thats because Pure Ranged Options rarely exist. Scourge is Quite litterally the only DPS that strictly runs a Ranged Weapon in meta builds.

the boon system doesnt work properly in Ranged.

Ranged Weapons generally mean u have to trade off Sustain, how much squishier could u go to ensure this doesnt overwrite Weaver.

Ranged Weapons Should do Less DPS if ranged combat was to ever be fully implemented and GW2 lacks the difficulty to punish Melee Play enough to Prevent its Superiority.

So is every specc.

Because the way boons and healing works in GW2, Litterally even if ur a full  Ranged Build. your still going to stand in Melee because of that.

Standing outside the Stack makes Survival Much harder and Reduces your DPS as ur boon uptime will take a hit.

I... don't really think you're understanding. Bellular and others are saying they prefer the melee options because the ranged options are bad, not because they don't want to be able to play effectively at range. This actually supports the argument everyone here is making. The fact is people expect for mages to primarily be spellslingers. It's fantastic to have melee options but that shoudln't be the default playstyle of the class.

Additionally, while the "downed state meta" is clearly an exaggerated joke, it is nevertheless true that elementalist is the squishiest class in the game with normal damage output and extremely complex survival schemes. There isn't much arguing that it's a messy design and that they need to do some revamps as well as overhauling the staff. The specifics of why this is the case have been laid out in multiple threads:

- there is too little synergy between the attunements; each is over-specialized and your damage gets tanked too much spending much time in anything other than Fire ( especially with staff)

- the lack of synergy means that elementalists have a major quantity over quality problem and that attunements are effectively worse than a normal class's weapon swap - they have more choices to generally do less effective things

- conjured weapons are outdated and are unable to properly compensate for the above problem 

- they are forced to be in melee range to deal reasonable damage, which exposes their frailty in ways that they lack the defensive tools to compensate for, hence the downed state joke

- their traits are all over the place with limited coherent design strategy for what each traitline represents

If elementalists were going to be given a slow twohander, that weapon needed to at least have some range on it. I think if hammer had been a 600 range default weapon or functioned more like it does for Revenants, there'd be a lot less complaining. I was genuinely blown away by how bad the decision was to make it melee.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Einlanzer.1627

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

don't really think you're understanding. Bellular and others are saying they prefer the melee options because the ranged options are bad, not because they don't want to be able to play effectively at range. This actually supports the argument everyone here is making. The fact is people expect for mages to primarily be spellslingers. It's fantastic to have melee options but that shoudln't be the default playstyle of the class

He didn't say the ranged playstyles were bad, he said he liked the feeling of being a battle mage. A very different term. 

He never actually said they were bad at all he said he didn't enjoy them. 

Same as I don't. And it's nothing to do with the ranged weapons being bad. It's the fact Anet do ranged gameplay bad.

The game has nothing enjoyable in it about ranged. It's litterally a dead concept in this game. Because even ranged playstyles are played in the targets face. 

All the ranged weapons in this game feel bad, except maybe deadeye is pretty satisfying but rifle deadeye isn't rly used at all 😂 so fat lot of good that did. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Einlanzer.1627]

13 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

He didn't say the ranged playstyles were bad, he said he liked the feeling of being a battle mage. A very different term. 

He never actually said they were bad at all he said he didn't enjoy them. 

Same as I don't. And it's nothing to do with the ranged weapons being bad. It's the fact Anet do ranged gameplay bad.

The game has nothing enjoyable in it about ranged. It's litterally a dead concept in this game. Because even ranged playstyles are played in the targets face. 

All the ranged weapons in this game feel bad, except maybe deadeye is pretty satisfying but rifle deadeye isn't rly used at all 😂 so fat lot of good that did. 

 

I like how you say "all the ranged weapons in this game feel bad" and yet act like other people are weird for pointing out an obvious problem with that. 

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

 

I like how you say "all the ranged weapons in this game feel bad" and yet act like other people are weird for pointing out an obvious problem with that. 

I ain't saying it's weird or acting that way 

I have in every post on discussion regarding this stated.

The problem is the ranged gameplay in this game and not the lack of getting new ranged weapons is the bad thing

If elementalist got a ranged weapon instead of hammer I could bet money it would have managed to be even worse. We all know melee weapons will get power creeped and it will get nerfed stupidly. I mean why are we even fighting so hard for it when Anet havent even bothered making the combat for it work. 

Again. Think of the trade offs required to be ranged. 

- it has to be squishier then weaver 

- it has to do less DPS then weaver. 

The game lacks a definitive role for ranged to play. Which means the only way it becomes meta is by reversing the current situation to be ranged bias 

The game also lacks the ability for ranged playstyles to be able to get boons which forces them into melee. 

To add to this raids don't have mechanics that make ranged gameplay required to fulfill outside the odd handkiting. 

Gw2 would need to actually give ranged a fundamental purpose and include them into the meta via raid mechanics, which will build a demand for them as a role. 

If ele got squishier and it would, the "downstate meme" would become a actual thing realistically and ranged would defintly trigger that. If it's forced into melee for boons it won't be viable. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I ain't saying it's weird or acting that way 

I have in every post on discussion regarding this stated.

The problem is the ranged gameplay in this game and not the lack of getting new ranged weapons is the bad thing

If elementalist got a ranged weapon instead of hammer I could bet money it would have managed to be even worse. We all know melee weapons will get power creeped and it will get nerfed stupidly. I mean why are we even fighting so hard for it when Anet havent even bothered making the combat for it work. 

Again. Think of the trade offs required to be ranged. 

- it has to be squishier then weaver 

- it has to do less DPS then weaver. 

The game lacks a definitive role for ranged to play. Which means the only way it becomes meta is by reversing the current situation to be ranged bias 

The game also lacks the ability for ranged playstyles to be able to get boons which forces them into melee. 

To add to this raids don't have mechanics that make ranged gameplay required to fulfill outside the odd handkiting. 

Gw2 would need to actually give ranged a fundamental purpose and include them into the meta via raid mechanics, which will build a demand for them as a role. 

If ele got squishier and it would, the "downstate meme" would become a actual thing realistically and ranged would defintly trigger that. If it's forced into melee for boons it won't be viable. 

 

 

Somebody better tell the guys who developed renegade that they did it wrong.  I don't think they're aware.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 2/1/2022 at 12:42 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/elementalist/staff-weaver-r5/

well tbh its use is pretty obvious.

Meta Events, World Bosses and More are all open world content and staff Weaver Does alot of damage when killing large swarms of adds Or Large hitboxed Targets (I.E Most events and world bosses)

you'd use Staff Weaver when ur Not completely alone as it does More Damage then Tempest realistically at the cost of it doesnt want to be stood in the face of the Enemy. but its still Above anything Story mode or Open world daily content would Demand from you.

Your citation fails to support your argument. You claimed that it was "the meta build", when it's not even the only build there, and the other is a variant of the tempest build that basically everyone recommends.

 

I'd believe that staff weaver gets used for bounty hunting... because running a pure or nearly pure melee build against a bounty with phasing, or any other mechanic that requires a lot of movement that isn't just circling the boss in melee range, absolutely sucks. But again, it's a least bad option. Literally every other profession has builds that fare better in that circumstance. Bow berserker (which can bring banners as well). Sceptre guardian. Bow renegade. Double pistol thief (or rifle deadeye). Ranger with bow and/or axe. Engineer kits. Mesmer with... basically anything other than sword or axe, and it can have one of those on the other swap. Similar for necromancer, except that you replace "sword or axe" with "greatsword or dagger". 

On 2/1/2022 at 12:42 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

pretty normal.. All Ranged playstyles become melee in Solo play, realistically works that way in every MMORPG lol you just tank hits while casting.

Im sorry but no games gonna offer you a Solo play Ranged experience worth a dime and a New weapon wont change that.

we are talking content that can be Solo'd Entirely With dps Below 5k, im sorry. but no. Staff and Sceptre are by far Above what your asking them to do. Ope nWorld content is Mindlessly Easymode and Dont require any functional builds or Set ups to partiicpate in. and never will.

dont go talking Open World Content and Start talking as if both these weapons dont still overperform in Open World content, because they do. Because everything is overperforming in there.

Wrong. I've run around solo open world on other professions, and you absolutely can maintain distance. Kiting is a thing, after all. Problem is that both staff and, to a lesser extent but still there, sceptre are highly reliant on backloaded area attacks that require the enemy to stay within the area for an extended period of time, which means that in practice, if you kite away, the enemy chases you out of the field. Other professions don't have that handicap on their ranged weapons.

 

This also applies to competitive modes, incidentally. Your claim that ranged weapons just don't get used can be easily disproven through observing just a handful of PvP games. It's very rare that you'll see an elementalist using them these days, though.

 

On 2/1/2022 at 12:49 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

what is this statement?

Open world Content. Can be done by Smacking someones head against ur keyboard Rapidly lol, lets not be a False sense of difficulty on Open world content.

Ah, yes, the general "every mode I don't play is easy mode" elitism shining through.

 

Yes, there are regions of open world that have thinly spread trash mobs. But you won't be soloing bounties by facerolling. There are also regions you can go into that have a lot of dangerous mobs that are likely to aggro on you at once, and if you go into those areas alone (particularly since some of them require a mount to realistically get out of again), you'd better have a good build and know what you're doing. 

On 2/1/2022 at 12:49 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Its not  circular Logic realistically.

Its the fact that Now they're going HARD down trade off routes, your gonna have to accept being Ranged will intself Trigger a Trade off.

A Ranged Ele weapon, would have No evades, no Increased HP Options in its Traits, and Would not Have any sustain on it (I.E Barrier), ontop of this it would do lower DPS Then a Pure Melee Weapon. because Ranged weapons doing more then melee weapons Would be Power creep which again they've stated they trying to avoid.

The likelyhood of a Ranged Specc would be a Support one if Ele ever got this, Because it'll make Weaver completely redundent making another Pure DPS Ranged Option realistically, espically if its going to out DPS Weaver which it should Not be allowed to do.

Melee have to do more Damage then Ranged. thats Just Balance. you power creep the game if u start applying 40k DPS builds to ranged Weapons. Renegade and Scourge need dealing with on a MAJOR Level to bring their DPS Variants backwards. we dotn need more people travelling in their direction.

U can have a Safe build thats a Optimal Build.

So when u break it down

ELementalist ranged weapon

- Reduced Sustain through lack of Evades / mobility

- Reduced DPS To balance off being Ranged.

What Success are u seeing outside piotiental WvWvW Blobs?... Unless its Broken and In need of nerfing.

 

 

So it won't be a build for your precious raids. Whoop-de-frelling-dooo.

 

Ranged capability is, itself, a survival characteristic. That's why it has the tradeoffs. It means you can continue to engage a target without having to blow whatever defensive cooldowns you do have (and the existing elementalist ranged weapon sets do have some, so a future one wouldn't automatically have none either) on whatever bad is surrounding the target, as well as taking advantage of terrain and other advantages. It's also an offensive characteristic in competitive modes, since it's usually pretty obvious when someone is gunning for you in melee unless they stealth, while a long ranged attack is far more likely to strike them before they're aware of you. And even when they are aware of you, while there are certainly countermeasures that can be taken against ranged attacks, it's still a bit more involved than just kiting. I understand that this rarely if ever matters in raids, fractals, and strikes, but they don't represent the entire game by a long shot.

 

You prefer Hardstuck as your source? Go through the PvP builds. The only PvP builds on the site that don't have some ranged capability are elementalist (surprise surprise), warrior (also not surprising), herald (hammer having been nerfed to death for WvW reasons before ArenaNet admitted they needed to start splitting skills) and interrupt mirage (side mirage goes the other way and runs staff and scepter). At time of writing, that's four builds out of nineteen. Similar observations can be made in the WvW and OW sections. Why? Because in every mode apart from raids/fractals/strikes, having ranged capability is useful. And even in raids/fractals/strikes, as I've said before, all it would take is one encounter that is designed so that staying in melee all the time isn't viable.

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Wrong. I've run around solo open world on other professions, and you absolutely can maintain distance. Kiting is a thing, after all. Problem is that both staff and, to a lesser extent but still there, sceptre are highly reliant on backloaded area attacks that require the enemy to stay within the area for an extended period of time, which means that in practice, if you kite away, the enemy chases you out of the field. Other professions don't have that handicap on their ranged weapons

Kiting maybe a thing but it's quite litterally pointless and to no gain due to how easy open world is. 

Ontop of this. A ranged magical weapon should have cast times. I.e low damage while moving because that's the nature of the "mage gameplay" so if it does it's likely bad design to begin with. 

19 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

prefer Hardstuck as your source? Go through the PvP builds. The only PvP builds on the site that don't have some ranged capability are elementalist (surprise surprise), warrior (also not surprising), herald (hammer having been nerfed to death for WvW reasons before ArenaNet admitted they needed to start splitting skills) and interrupt mirage (side mirage goes the other way and runs staff and scepter). At time of writing, that's four builds out of nineteen. Similar observations can be made in the WvW and OW sections. Why? Because in every mode apart from raids/fractals/strikes, having ranged capability is useful. And even in raids/fractals/strikes, as I've said before, all it would take is one encounter that is designed so that staying in melee all the time isn't viable

This is effectively what I've stated everytime. 

The game needs PvE support for ranged weapons. Right now we simply have no reason to play at ranged if anything it's a DPS loss to do that. 

The ranged gameplay would need reworks before we would see success in PvE content from a ranged build realistically. 

To the PvP argument: 

You can blame the fact elementalist continously get pidgeon holed into duelling builds. 

When we look at more Damage orintated builds for elementalist you will notice they actually play ranged builds (i.e fresh air variant) 

Elementalist in spvp are duellists and have been nerfed in every other way. The problem isn't that sceptar don't work in spvp the problem is elementalist just gets pidgeon holed continously. 

But it's damage builds are much more ranged focused realistically. Just like most "one shot burst* builds got nuked from the sky by Anet. 

Fresh air weaver, core shatter mesmer. Etc etc 

[Obtena.7952]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:43 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

maybe in story mode / Open world. which is the most Popular ofcourse.

however in Group content such as Fractals / Raids and in More competitive modes (WvWvW and SPVP) its actually massively shown statistically that it has Changed the way people play the game.

Just look at wingman Statistics for example.. it shows a MASSIVE Shfit towards Firebrand / Renegade / Scourge throughout every level of play across the board.

these statistics arent on "top players" "meta pushers" they're Every run done in GW2, and they statistically show the Meta choices every round are over 80% in Popularity continously, u never see even remotely close to a Proper Spread of Proffessions even in Lower more Casual Fractals.

Raids are More balanced ofcourse so have alittle more spread, but u still See quite a Few Changes. which would indicate even basic PUG casual players are moving proffession to proffessino dependent on the meta at hand.

I'd Also argue the Meta in Open world / Soloing etc etc have been made mindlessly easy and tyhe meta hasnt shifted in years.. so we cant measure the truth in that either.

None of this has anything to do with my post ... so I don't know why you reply to me.  People are able to play builds they want, even non-meta ones and these builds are viable, even in the hands of not-streamers, contrary to the claim of the poster I was replying to.

Long range 'dream' is not likely to be dead in EoD (just like it wasn't dead in core, HoT or PoF) unless there the game mechanics prevent people from playing ranged builds.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Kiting maybe a thing but it's quite litterally pointless and to no gain due to how easy open world is. 

That's your condescending but wrong opinion. In reality, it depends on what you're doing in open world. Running around with a zerg or in an area with relatively few enemies, sure. Soloing group events and going into areas with large numbers of dangerous enemies is not. There are things you can attempt to do in open world that are harder than most raids (particularly since if you're doing it by yourself, you don't have a group to potentially carry you).

This is as much of the game as the low proportion of people who do the content that you care about. (Mighty Teapot recently stated that only 2% of players on gw2efficiency have cleared raid wing 7, for instance, and that's already selecting for people with enough investment in the game to be on that site.)

Quote

Ontop of this. A ranged magical weapon should have cast times. I.e low damage while moving because that's the nature of the "mage gameplay" so if it does it's likely bad design to begin with. 

Why? Mesmer, necromancer, and guardian don't have this handicap.

Quote

To the PvP argument: 

You can blame the fact elementalist continously get pidgeon holed into duelling builds. 

When we look at more Damage orintated builds for elementalist you will notice they actually play ranged builds (i.e fresh air variant) 

Elementalist in spvp are duellists and have been nerfed in every other way. The problem isn't that sceptar don't work in spvp the problem is elementalist just gets pidgeon holed continously. 

But it's damage builds are much more ranged focused realistically. Just like most "one shot burst* builds got nuked from the sky by Anet. 

Fresh air weaver, core shatter mesmer. Etc etc 

And maybe if elementalist actually received a ranged-oriented spec, rather than melee-range specs that rely on sustain to make up for their low health, they could break out of that pigeon hole. Maybe if elementalist received a ranged weapon that could actually do consistent pressure on a moving opponent, rather than relying on backloaded effects that are easily dodged out of or spikes that require blowing most of their cooldowns to 100-0 an opponent, they could break out of that pigeon hole.

Ultimately, though, it goes to demonstrate that your 'ranged itself is not useful' mantra only applies to your parochial little stack-and-smack meta little patch. In every other mode, it is desired and used. Not in every single build, naturally, but the majority of them.

Edited February 6, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Puck.3697]

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's your condescending but wrong opinion. In reality, it depends on what you're doing in open world. Running around with a zerg or in an area with relatively few enemies, sure. Soloing group events and going into areas with large numbers of dangerous enemies is not. There are things you can attempt to do in open world that are harder than most raids (particularly since if you're doing it by yourself, you don't have a group to potentially carry you

But it isn't wrong shown by the fact anyone soloing those mobs are using sword weaver builds and facetanking damage without a problem lol. 

You don't need to kite if you have builds which can stand still and do the same thing realistically. 

Elementalist have ranged builds. They were at a time very strong 

The problem is for elementalist to be of value as a DPS its damage has to be balanced around how squishy it is which means that damage has to be insanely high. They will never drive that much DMG into ele.. so it will always be pushed down to a bunker 

It's not fun to play against a build that can one shot you, hence why core shatter mesmer and Fresh air builds got made irrelevant. 

Why doesn't mesmers / necros / guardians share that handicap? What do you mean core necro is the only ranged meta build used... Staff mesmers faded alot in its potiental and generally it's interupt build is used far more due to how thief counters mesmers hard. 

Core necro is only used for insanely tanky it is compared to other teamfighters to begin with it isn't a high DPSer and guardians use a longbow with multiple stationary abilities. Nd is balanced off with sword + shields defensive ability 

Mesmers staff build isn't that good anymore really. It's just cheesy. But yeah tbh it needs deleting. But again it's a side noder build realistically as it doesn't have that high damage unless you play against it badly 

None of these builds use pure ranged builds alike we are asking elementalist to have or are we forgetting that if ele uses a ranged weapon it has to be exclusively ranged. 

At the end of the day.

yes, we've seen at tims Ranged options do decent. but EoDs Options caster/ mage style, look Awful.

Virtuoso is Terrible. its got a 1200 Range new Weapon. that u wouldnt use, the Specc is beneath anything Chrono offers and to stack it all off No part of its good realistically.

Do i think if Elementalist also got a Ranged Weapobn. u'd be looking at another virtuoso. Yah i do, because The new Dev team only have this Example to go by realistically, they made a Mage and virtuoso is the Standard of that, the Devs that made Renegade are gone. the Devs who made Dragonhunter are gone.

We now have every "Up point" comes with 5 Different trade offs. so do i think a Ranged Weapon on Elementalist would be Equal or Maybe Worse then virtuosos Current place, Ofcourse i do lol. Its a Trainwreck realistically. Its that bad. its the ONLY Specc on the Forums Continously having "Fake positive posts" created around it lmfao Because its Litteral Dogs*it lmfao.

I've never stated i dont think elementalist should get a Ranged Weapon. i stick to the point. Ranged Elites Fail more often then they succeed and I dont think Elementalist will be the Lucky one to get a good Ranged build. given the Show so far on Elementalist.

Its given a Pure DPS SPecc.. which is Outclased by other DPS SPeccs

it got a Support Specc which is Outclassed by other Support Speccs

Do i think the Ranged Specc will get Outclassed by the existing ranged speccs. Yah i do easily i do, because thats all that happens with Elementalists. Anet make every Ele Specc a hybrid and Dont stray from that. So everytime it gets Nerfed around and around in circles because they have to balance out the fact it Does 5 Roles terribly.

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ultimately, though, it goes to demonstrate that your 'ranged itself is not useful' mantra only applies to your parochial little stack-and-smack meta little patch. In every other mode, it is desired and used. Not in every single build, naturally, but the majority of them.

 

no what you've shown me is Multipel builds use Ranged and melee Attacks.

Which is what hammers Designed to try and be (Although it needs some improvements forsure to fill it)

you've shown me 0 Pure Ranged builds however, we both know Elementalist cant weapon swap. you cant utilise 4 weapons on ele like other proffessions so u cant use Melee and Ranged weapons. so your asking for a 100% Ranged build with Elementalist.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

Ignore

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:40 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Somebody better tell the guys who developed renegade that they did it wrong.  I don't think they're aware.

while i agree here.. can we give many examples where ranged weapons were introduced As great as Renegade realistically.

we can all point out a Exception. but its litterally that, a Exception and yah we can be like "why doesnt elementalist just get a bow as good as Renegades then".

But then lets Look at another Ranged Elite specc coming out by the Current Developers of EoD.

Virtuoso.

Do we really want Elementalist to get virtuoso?... do u really think thats gonna fix your problems cause Spoilers: It Wont lmfao, its Litterally Put in garbage tier by every tier list created around EoD and we can say "oh but maybe they'll fix it. maybe it'll be great" at best the mechanic may improve. that Daggers never getting used however.

heres the fact. Unlike Renegades Development.

Everything you get will have a Severe trade off, Hence why virtuoso is where it is. Being Ranged has made its Damage Neutered. the Weapon itself Isnt good enough to be Warranted. the Casting animations and More have made it Unrealistic in PvP Settings.

Its been made entirely Reflectable.

The current Development team. put out ONE MAGE. ONE Cast based Fantasy Elite. and it Absolutely Sucks lmfao.... I mean you want me to look at virtuoso, and have some level of Copium for a Ranged Elite for Elementalist. No, because if virtuoso is the Modern Standard of Ranged Gameplay in Guild Wars 2. Even if u have it, you'll ignore it.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

21 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

None of this has anything to do with my post ... so I don't know why you reply to me.  People are able to play builds they want, even non-meta ones and these builds are viable, even in the hands of not-streamers, contrary to the claim of the poster I was replying to.

Long range 'dream' is not likely to be dead in EoD (just like it wasn't dead in core, HoT or PoF) unless there the game mechanics prevent people from playing ranged builds.

as a Constant reminder

That players and New players shouldnt listen to what your saying. if they do, they're gonna go roll something Stupid. get to 80 and releise they've wasted their time as every PuG players gonna boot them on site for running stupid builds. you and your guild may play as they please. you have the right to do so. however this game is Primarily Dominanted by PuG based content which means they cant rely on their "friends" to uphold their positions while playing Stupid things.

I have no idea why ignoring you hasnt Removed you from my notifications but god dammit. I could beleive your a Anet employee with your Mantras. no one Cares about,

The concept of playing a Suboptimal build and Making content harder for yourself because the games Content is irrelevant anyway.

is basically telling a Sprinter if they find 100 Meter sprint too Easy why not just Cut off one of your Feet to make it harder. instead of "introducing a 200 Meter sprint for People alike him". in the World most of us do content in.

No one cares about you, No one cares if your having Fun, no one wants your opinons. All they want is to do a Job. and a boss to die as fast as Possible. your Manta makes no sense whjen u step away and Actually look at how the Player engages with content your too blind sighted to see things beyond "on paper"

Ranged Options on Elementalist Suck. they're Simply Not efficent, they do nothing well and they are some of the Worst options in the game regards to Ranged combat. Ontop of this, this game has Done a Appauling job of actually giving some Casting / wizard based fantasy which has a Hint of Strength for any proffession realistically. so yah people are gonna Complain everyone wants different things and maybe Allow them to Screech as loud as they want.

its as if u have some allergy against players who dont like something and have some compulsion to walk in and Try spread some sorta rubbish Positivity vibe among it and wonder why people get annoyed or Ur posts Dont quite add up to the replies.. is because you try to talk from a Developer point of view to very Much Player orintated problems.

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

That players and New players shouldnt listen to what your saying.

They should ... because the message that they have to play meta to enjoy the game is false. Also, it's false for people to suggest non-meta builds are only good in the hands of specific players. Being successful in this game is about knowing the builds you want to play and the content you want to beat. 

Ranged options on Ele are rubbish ... ok, then don't play them if you think so. I know lots of people that play ranged options, enjoy it and are welcome in team content. THAT is a message that has value to ANY new or existing player. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They should .. because the message that they have to play meta to enjoy the game is false.

see you've worded that very differently to my statement.

As i said.

No one cares in the PuG World if you Enjoy the game. U can play what you like, but if ur not in the minority in a guild or able to run a Static raid time then you Simply to Do the Content have to play Optimal Choices. (theres a big difference between Optimal and Meta choices)

Tempest. isnt a Meta choice. but its Optimal for Elementalists In a Support role as a good example of this.

Do uj think. i care if u like the game while u make my kill slower.. No i dont, and after ive kicked thw same New Player 5/6 Times. he'll likely get frustrated he may stop trying to do that content. he may move game or he could possibly reroll, or he could just take heaps of verbal harrassment.

Either way. running by this logic. could potientally Lose players if they're apart of the majority in PuG based groups and Raids, your better off alerting them to this Fundamental problem early, then wasting their time entirely.

again. Stop concentrating so hard on the "options Purpose" and More on the Player engagement In the actual game, it does not matter the Reasons of its development if its engaged with entirely different.

Do u think drakkar was developed to be "AFK'd". do u think the achievement to take no Damage was susposed to encourage players to "AFK" the content. no, however is this how the players engage wit hthe content. Yes. ALIOT of people AFK the World bosses and more.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125