So actually how vindi alter/bring new playstyle?

[Nephalem.8921]

16 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

The main difference I noticed is that Vindicator is by far the least dependent on Upkeep skills to be good, which vastly changes how energy is managed.

It uses just as many upkeeps as renegade if you use the new legend and more if you take jalis for actually good skills. Its still dependant on IO in pve but it doesnt have icerazor like ren. Vindicator is very lazy designed. its ranger gs + a collection of reaper shouts coupled with a long dodge animation.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

15 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It uses just as many upkeeps as renegade if you use the new legend and more if you take jalis for actually good skills. Its still dependant on IO in pve but it doesnt have icerazor like ren. Vindicator is very lazy designed. its ranger gs + a collection of reaper shouts coupled with a long dodge animation.

That's PvE though. PvE is just DPS rotations. Let's be real for a moment, all PvE DPS roles are fundamentally the same regardless of class. If you were expecting something drastically different towards that category, you done goofed.

In PvP, Vindicators energy management is a significant break from how you would normally play. Currently there are 4 builds worth playing in PvP for Rev:

1. Power Shiro Herald. Glint upkeeps etc.

2. Mallyx Herald. Same as above. plus heavy use of elite upkeep in Mallyx.

3.  Renegade bowgod. Lots of IO autoattacking, and just general upkeeps for sustain since SR is often taken. And if you take Dwarf elite trait instead, you are still constantly dumping 40 energy for that 50% reduced damage.

4. Core Shiro/Jalis bruiser. You usually Maintain constant upkeep for SR sustain.

However, with Vindicator your sustain and evasion comes from Vind traits themselves, so you generally do not take Retribution. Alliance stance has one upkeep skill and it sucks, it's better to just use skills without it. And greatsword is slower, so it's better to only use IO occasionally. So the what and when of skill usage is fairly different from the other specs.

 

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

That's PvE though. PvE is just DPS rotations. Let's be real for a moment, all PvE DPS roles are fundamentally the same regardless of class. If you were expecting something drastically different towards that category, you done goofed.

In PvP, Vindicators energy management is a significant break from how you would normally play. Currently there are 4 builds worth playing in PvP for Rev:

1. Power Shiro Herald. Glint upkeeps etc.

2. Mallyx Herald. Same as above. plus heavy use of elite upkeep in Mallyx.

3.  Renegade bowgod. Lots of IO autoattacking, and just general upkeeps for sustain since SR is often taken. And if you take Dwarf elite trait instead, you are still constantly dumping 40 energy for that 50% reduced damage.

4. Core Shiro/Jalis bruiser. You usually Maintain constant upkeep for SR sustain.

However, with Vindicator your sustain and evasion comes from Vind traits themselves, so you generally do not take Retribution. Alliance stance has one upkeep skill and it sucks, it's better to just use skills without it. And greatsword is slower, so it's better to only use IO occasionally. So the what and when of skill usage is fairly different from the other specs.

 

Other games manage to create interesting dps rotations for pve. Gw2 which is mainly an open world pve game has very lackluster skill design in this area on some classes and some are very good. Vindicator plays almost exactly like power herald with a dodge added in there.

Mirage plays fundamentally different than most other dps classes, holo plays different, chrono plays like a summoner. It doesnt help that there are barely any dps skills on legends. there could have been a lot of ways to make it more interesting than upkeep io on sword and gs with jalis hammers while using dodge.

[Buran.3796]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:14 PM, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

In PvP, Vindicators energy management is a significant break from how you would normally play. Currently there are 4 builds worth playing in PvP for Rev:

   I think that in PvP the Guardian has (had) clearly three different ways to be played: core (either support or burn dps, oftenly with either meditations or shouts, both instant casting abilities), Dragonhunter (focused in in ranged pressure, constant ccs and strategic placement of the traps) and Firebrand (no longer: is a defunct spec in PvP but used to be great due the constant change between regular skills, tome skills and stacks of mantras made it a very "piano play" elementalist kind of character). But the new Willbender is exactly the same as a core Guard: just more mobile and way less support, so ends being pretty much a dps fire guardian which is slanted towrads physical damage, instead.

   With the Rev is similar: you have a Herald melee-physical build which relies in mobility and bursts, and then a ranged Renegade build (which only works since the Feb 2019 balance patch + Sevenshot rework); the core builds are worse variants of both of those, and the condi Herald was killed the same as the Firebrand. The Vindicator is a core Rev with a single dosdge with x2 de cost and I don't see how could it replace (compete) vs power Shiro or Renebow in PvP. With the current meta of low damage in PvP the only thing that works is stacking cc on targets: Vindi has no ccs and is specially vulnerable to cc pressure due how limited is in terms of evasions. 

   I disliked the initial presentation of the Vindi due not only lacked flavour in lore/design but mostly due the price of admision seemed brutal (another Mirage with no dodges); then the second beta came and I liked it due with the 50 endurance cost for the evade it could work as a bruiser (a role which the Revenant lacked in PvP), but the 4th beta buried that build since is now a Mirage with 100 endurance units x dodge and no acces to i-frames in signets (and Mirage isn't even meta in PvP)... 

   Anyway, we will known in 4 days.

[Puck.3697]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:45 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Mirage plays fundamentally different than most other dps classes, holo plays different, chrono plays like a summoner. It doesnt help that there are barely any dps skills on legends. there could have been a lot of ways to make it more interesting than upkeep io on sword and gs with jalis hammers while using dodge

Weeeell. Tbh

Mirage came out playing fundamentally different to most classes sure, but it's unique mechanics effectively over time got it nerfed out of all content almost. 

Chronomancer again came out being very different and interested. But got gutted down to a PvE tank. 

If these are your examples vindicator would be screwed 😂😂

The only game that delievers on real "unique engaging" class design is FFXIV, and that's because they never went for speccs, or options or builds. 

FFXIV made a box cut design where classes are just classes and there's no difference between 2 people using the same class. 

This allowed them to buff / balance / design proffessions around 1 core playstyle allowing it to be expanded further instead of having to monitor 14 other potiental builds while designing something. 

Alot of people do prefer that others don't, it's a different set of pros and cons 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Axl.8924]

On 2/12/2022 at 12:38 AM, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Elite specs were meant to bring in new playstyle and alter mechanics. They can do it for other classes so why not for rev. Its not my job to suggest something as i am not gw2 skill designer, just a customer so i expect them to come up with something. I actually got lots of ideas as i am also in process of writing my own game but why bother when they never listen to any suggestions? Actually maybe they do cuz they stole lots of ideas from warrior sub and brought them to diff classes... 

 

For time being they cant be even bothered to fix mace 2 animamation for near 3 yrs now. A starter weapon for rev. Lets not even mention CoR or UA hitting map objects. Also let me tell u that fixing mace 2 animation is a matter of deleting few frames off the animation... it shows pure disgusting laziness on their part

 

"Just to think about how miserable Revenant skills were when people could take skills away from other players, they were easily the weakest with how nothing could even flow."

 

Also honestly idk what u talk about here. Im confused

Sounds to me like vindi si supposed to be either roamer or some sorta bruiser build right?  since GS Lots of offensive from alliance occasional self sustain maybe potential for duelist? I'm no good but if what is said above is true then maybe teamplayer or roamer.

[Nephalem.8921]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Weeeell. Tbh

Mirage came out playing fundamentally different to most classes sure, but it's unique mechanics effectively over time got it nerfed out of all content almost. 

Chronomancer again came out being very different and interested. But got gutted down to a PvE tank. 

If these are your examples vindicator would be screwed 😂😂

The only game that delievers on real "unique engaging" class design is FFXIV, and that's because they never went for speccs, or options or builds. 

FFXIV made a box cut design where classes are just classes and there's no difference between 2 people using the same class. 

This allowed them to buff / balance / design proffessions around 1 core playstyle allowing it to be expanded further instead of having to monitor 14 other potiental builds while designing something. 

Alot of people do prefer that others don't, it's a different set of pros and cons 

Axe mirage is top tier in pve. its only gutted in pvp.

chrono is still top tier dmg. tank chrono isnt really a thing anymore. You only use it on some bosses and there are always better options than tank chrono. dps chrono would be played a lot more if danger time wouldnt require slow. well virtuoso is the better dps chrono anyways.

They could have done a lot more interesting things than vindicator.

[Klowdy.3126]

On 2/14/2022 at 12:48 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Obviously, the intent here is to encourage players to use Alliance. Again, that's a CHOICE you get to make and EoD specs elements are very strongly aligned to themselves. 

I mean, this isn't actually much different than your example here ... there are traits that buff Shouts on Reaper ... you can choose that if you want, whether you use one shout or 5 or even ZERO if someone REALLY wants to ... this isn't different. If you want your F3 to be effective, you will choose Alliance ... otherwise, it doesn't do anything for you. That kind of thing is EVERYWHERE in the choices you have to make when you make a build. 

I honestly don't see the problem here ... because you do get two choices for Legends. If neither of those is Alliance, that's your own choice based on your criteria for what you want your build to do. That doesn't mean functions that are intended to work with Alliance legend aren't 'good design'. Seems to me, you just don't want to be restricted by your choices. 

Not gonna lie, I'm looking forward to flying around like a Dragoon in FF14 using dives, even if it is (or was) one of the worst combat mechanics in the game. We'll see how I feel after the specs have been out a while, but for now, it seems like a fun gimmick to me. 

[Klowdy.3126]

On 2/14/2022 at 12:48 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Obviously, the intent here is to encourage players to use Alliance. Again, that's a CHOICE you get to make and EoD specs elements are very strongly aligned to themselves. 

I mean, this isn't actually much different than your example here ... there are traits that buff Shouts on Reaper ... you can choose that if you want, whether you use one shout or 5 or even ZERO if someone REALLY wants to ... this isn't different. If you want your F3 to be effective, you will choose Alliance ... otherwise, it doesn't do anything for you. That kind of thing is EVERYWHERE in the choices you have to make when you make a build. 

I honestly don't see the problem here ... because you do get two choices for Legends. If neither of those is Alliance, that's your own choice based on your criteria for what you want your build to do. That doesn't mean functions that are intended to work with Alliance legend aren't 'good design'. Seems to me, you just don't want to be restricted by your choices. 

Not gonna lie, I'm looking forward to flying around like a Dragoon in FF14 using dives, even if it is (or was) one of the worst combat mechanics in the game. We'll see how I feel after the specs have been out a while, but for now, it seems like a fun gimmick to me. 

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Axe mirage is top tier in pve. its only gutted in pvp.

chrono is still top tier dmg. tank chrono isnt really a thing anymore. You only use it on some bosses and there are always better options than tank chrono. dps chrono would be played a lot more if danger time wouldnt require slow. well virtuoso is the better dps chrono anyways.

They could have done a lot more interesting things than vindicator.

 

eeh?

 

We really putting Mirage in the same bracket as Condi Choices such as Renegade Scourge and Firebrand?.. u rly wanna throw Axe Mirage in the S Tier catagory with those 3?... i'd really like u to check the old representation. heres the fact i said Most.

- Chronomancer was Mesmers first entry into WvWvW Meta, however its gutting has Removed that potinetal. Mirage is pretty bad in WvWvW outside duelling and even then its not the strongest options by far.

- All 3 Speccs have Lacked a Spot in Fractals really, due to its Low condi burst compared to the big 3 and the fact chronomancer Just doesnt work well in Fractals due to how Shatters work, its Kept it out of a Fractal Meta.

- In SPVP its a Ok choice, but its Countered by thief and a Lesser option for the thief role simultaniously. it can do well enough but its no where near a Top tier option.

The concept, of "Well its Design wise Flawed in Fractal content, its OK at SPVP and Doesnt rly have a place WvWvW At all.. Leaves it what? a good Raid choice and i guess Solo wise Mirage can do a Great job there. so being Viable in Solo content and Raids makes a Proffession a "top tier choice".. it isnt even first pick outside the Tank role realistically.

Im sorry. but

Mirage - hjas the Same Shatter effects, The only difference is it Shatters Less and Dodges Offensively, thats Litterally 1 New Mechanic.

Chronomancer - has New shatter effects but do the same type of things... it shatters Just like core just with a Different animation. it Loses Distortion for CS. Litterally 1 New Mechanic.

Now if we wanna go to their release points Sure both of these speccs had Huge Design differences. Chronomancer Gaining a F6 (Before Distortion removal) Shield had high usuage before its Nerfs in PvP enviroments, It Changed up the way WvWvW Was played ALOT. Alacrity being Unique to chronomancer Entirely.

Mirage having Multiple build options (POwer and Condi Mirage were both high contenders) made it atleast ALOT more flexible and power Mirage became a high favorite added some interesting Dynamics to what you could use its Dodge for in Compettive modes.

But by the end of the LOOONG changes to these both.. they're Effectively both Core mesmer + 1 Step.

- Vindicator getting 5 New Abilities is More then mesmers ever gotten.

- Its utility being Different adds a New mechanic.

- It has a Unique Dodge which only exists for Vindicator.

- Drastic changes to Energy usuage in Competitive modes.

kinda make this Even with the final products of Mirage and Chronomancer im afraid. i aint saying it couldnt be "more interesting" but yah, mesmers didnt get anything good by the end of the changes they got a Cool Unique Specc at launch that got Dismantled from tthen onwards.

 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

2 hours ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Not gonna lie, I'm looking forward to flying around like a Dragoon in FF14 using dives, even if it is (or was) one of the worst combat mechanics in the game. We'll see how I feel after the specs have been out a while, but for now, it seems like a fun gimmick to me. 

Same here.  Already have my Rev ready for it equipment wise and build minus V traits.  I actually wish they’d bring back the 150 endo cost because you stayed in the air longer! 😆

[Axl.8924]

8 hours ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Not gonna lie, I'm looking forward to flying around like a Dragoon in FF14 using dives, even if it is (or was) one of the worst combat mechanics in the game. We'll see how I feel after the specs have been out a while, but for now, it seems like a fun gimmick to me. 

 

Truth be told i liked the dragoon thing a lot too it was a lot of fun jumping on enemies. I kinda wish spear was main weapon but that might just be because in final fantasy spear weapons was always what dragoons used.

[taara.3217]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

We really putting Mirage in the same bracket as Condi Choices such as Renegade Scourge and Firebrand?.. u rly wanna throw Axe Mirage in the S Tier catagory with those 3?

Of course not as Mirage more versatile Spec than RSF.