Herald Support

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Excellent ... its how the legend works.

We're just sprinting in circles.

Yes, that is how it works. It is how it is designed.

It is also bad.

[Aeolus.3615]

6 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

We're just sprinting in circles.

Yes, that is how it works. It is how it is designed.

It is also bad.

"sprinting in circles."

maybe

i have a question....

So if Anet boosted tablet movement to have a stronger heal lets say 2k with the decent stats for support would u see that skill as a heal zone with 2sec regen or something  rather then a tablet movement only skill ??

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[The Boz.2038]

Still 0 activation 3s cooldown skill to be activated on cooldown, whenever available?

[Charybdis.3695]

Just because you have the ability to move the tablet that much doesn't mean you should always move it off cooldown. Same goes for Natural Harmony.

Arguing over energy management can only be done in context of situations that take place on the battlefield. The tablet isn't for everyone, but those who play it regularly have the opportunity to develop a higher awareness of position and strategy than those who prefer tunnel vision playstyles. But as we all know, there are some players who wish for things to be simple and rewarding while demanding the least amount of effort. My guess is Revenant in general is not for those kind of players, where effort and reward are arguably more apparent.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Echo.6310 said:

Just because you have the ability to move the tablet that much doesn't mean you should always move it off cooldown. Same goes for Natural Harmony.

Arguing over energy management can only be done in context of situations that take place on the battlefield. The tablet isn't for everyone, but those who play it regularly have the opportunity to develop a higher awareness of position and strategy than those who prefer tunnel vision playstyles. But as we all know, there are some players who wish for things to be simple and rewarding while demanding the least amount of effort. My guess is Revenant in general is not for those kind of players, where effort and reward are arguably more apparent.

^Touché, and we already have a decent lower effort gameplay.

IMO making tablet movement a bit more rewarding would not be bad tho. 

Still i belive Rev or at least some part of it was towards gw1 players in mind so that's why its gameplay wont fit all players.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Virdo.1540]

11 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Clicking the tablet is busywork. Making it so to click more is more busywork. It is not the way you fix this legend.

How is it redundant, you ask?
OK, so, the tablet pulses healing. You move it to pulse more healing, possibly to blind enemies too. Every 3 seconds. Yay.
Protective Solace is a projectile hate bubble. So far so yay.
Natural Harmony is big heals. Possibly tiny alacrity (irrelevant). 
Purifying Essence is condi cleanse, possibly big heals. 
Energy Expulsion is condi cleanse, big heals, and CC. Costs all energy.

So, four baby heals, two to three big heals, two condi cleanses, some CC, and some projectile hate. One finisher, one combo field (the combo is more condi cleanse). The entire kit is thirsty, making it really hard to offer some more support via might or alacrity, or do any damage at all. 

Dont forget the big energy costs of some skills.

Moving tablet ,so the tiny radius is near allies. Which is pretty much getting spammed due to always running players.

Natural Harmony 20 energy. 

Purifying Essence a whopping 25 energy for 3 cleanses. 

and elite, as you mentioned, full energy drain. While being worse the lower the energy is. (Despite the fact that people will never go for orbs on the ground, that are spread out everywhere.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Virdo.1540

[Za Shaloc.3908]

1 hour ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Dont forget the big energy costs of some skills.

Moving tablet ,so the tiny radius is near allies. Which is pretty much getting spammed due to always running players.

Natural Harmony 20 energy. 

Purifying Essence a whopping 25 energy for 3 cleanses. 

and elite, as you mentioned, full energy drain. While being worse the lower the energy is. (Despite the fact that people will never go for orbs on the ground, that are spread out everywhere.

 

Back before the big balance changes, the energy costs never felt like too much of an issue because the impact was so much higher. Now, Ventari's Will can add up to be quite an energy sink, and when you have to concentrate so much of your healing/cleansing support within the legend, it can make it feel very energy-starved.

 

I am looking forward to Vindicator because I think it will help alleviate some of the issues that Ventari suffers. It gives us back some of our healing modifier potency, allows for us to give heals and barriers via dodge, and allows us to heal and cleanse while in Saint Viktor. I think it will make Ventari feel better to play since it will take off a considerable amount of the pressure of having to concentrate so much of the support within Ventari. This is of course if running Ventari + Saint Viktor. My fear is that if Saint Viktor does start to get used, it will replace Ventari and be used with Jalis instead. 

 

Not to say that this negates Ventari's own flaws, but that I think part of the issue is that it doesn't really have a supporting legend that is a perfect "match" for it. IMO, SV will come the closest to that. We'll see though, depending on how much they tweak it.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Yasai.3549]

12 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

"clicking on skill is busy  work", that can be aplied to any skill, tablet is ment to be use with tactical placement for better performance.

Its ment to be diferent not all classes and utilities need to be spammed, for that u already hjave scrapper druid and FB, and warriors to some extent lol...

Except there are way better ways of proxy healing in the game already, it's just tablet that seriously sucks. 

 

For one, if tablet just **teleported** to the targeted location, it would be more effective. Sureee you lose the "slide" which heals allies, but I'm willing to trade that for simply blinking the tablet to target location and healing all allies in the AoE. 

I think tablet would be much better off becoming an Upkeep skill in this manner: 
Default function : all skills will center on the Revenant, all AoE pulses and skillshots will originate from the Revenant 

Upkeep function : Summons and sustains the Tablet manifestation, move it around using the Healing Skill like before, all skills will originate from the Tablet instead. No bloody sliding, just blink the Tablet around when commanding it to move. The Upkeep activation will be similar to Soulcleave, where you can predetermine where your Tablet will appear using a Marker. 

 

Upkeep will automatically throw up Protective Solace as the Tablet is summoned, and Protective Solace disappears along with the Tablet when Upkeep is deactivated. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Aeolus.3615]

@Yasai.3549 that would disconect the upkeep from the other skills doesnt make much sense, wich would make table per se useless,  just an animation moving arround, while ur performing other utilities that were moving the tablet to the aoe location? if so doesnt make sense.

U cant have a upkeep and keep pressing that skill to move the tablet that would just disable the upkeep and u know it.

Altough that could work with a rework on herald F2 or have its own f key? (MOAR Fkeys!!!!), tablet skills to be on tablet consume 1 pip but become cheaper  while  theres no tabet would improve heal output, even the elite skill could be this merge with the tablet gameplay... and that would make them the other way arround, when fused with tablet  skills would heal normal heals values but  way cheaper when using tablet offset  it would use normal energy values(wich would be the expensive value) but would boost the heals.

Theres plenty ways to fix it... if Anet wanted.

 

Tablet teleport from one side to other that would help really alot :) with a decent heal, but all other skills need to be performed in the tablet location, altough that is messing with my timings while im imagining it lol...

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Charybdis.3695]

Yeah I can't agree with the idea of a  teleporting tablet. Too many times I've had to use it to clear conditions or heal for a group of allies as it was moving through them, to then open the bubble at the end of its travel to block projectiles. If it were to only teleport, you couldn't use skills as it travels through allies. You can also mace 3 and have every blast clear conditions with the bubble moving in its path. Things like that are what convince me that Anet designed everything about the legend to work as intended.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Echo.6310

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

That's all nice and sweet but this is HERALD support thread, not "Ventari rework".

Back on the topic(s). Serene rejuvenation (trait that slaps alac on Ventari's Natural Harmony) is both bad and obsolete. It was originally introduced as a means to break chronomancer monopoly on the boon back in early 2017, pre PoF. Safe to say that issue is long gone and so should be this trait.

With alac on core gone (and good riddance), let's give Herald quickness for party. Facet of Nature could do that with a trait upgrade. Trait would have it pulse quickness but at the cost of increased energy upkeep (like 5 energy/s instead of 2).

Edited February 17, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Lotus Bane.9387]

4 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

That's all nice and sweet but this is HERALD support thread, not "Ventari rework".

Back on the topic(s). Serene rejuvenation (trait that slaps alac on Ventari's Natural Harmony) is both bad and obsolete. It was originally introduced as a means to break chronomancer monopoly on the boon back in early 2017, pre PoF. Safe to say that issue is long gone and so should be this trait.

With alac on core gone (and good riddance), let's give Herald quickness for party. Facet of Nature could do that with a trait upgrade. Trait would have it pulse quickness but at the cost of increased energy upkeep (like 5 energy/s instead of 2).

I was always hoping something additional, or anything really, could happen with Facet of Strength since Might is maxed both solo and in groups almost immediately these days with the Shared Empowerment trait, and also Sigil of Strength if that is used.

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, Lotus Bane.9387 said:

I was always hoping something additional, or anything really, could happen with Facet of Strength since Might is maxed both solo and in groups almost immediately these days with the Shared Empowerment trait, and also Sigil of Strength if that is used.

They could just move Herald away from Boons tbh, that's essentially the entire idea when they reworked FoN.

 

Facet of Light : HoT in AoE

Facet of Darkness : Increase Precision in an AoE

Facet of Might : Increase Damage and Condi Damage in an AoE

Facet of Elements : Increase Movement speed in AoE

Facet of  Chaos : Decrease incoming Condi duration and damage (we kinda have DR upkeep from Dwarf FoN already)

 

This is also a good thing for competitive cos it reduces the boons Herald has to get corrupted with.

 

Wait did I just make Bannerslave 2.0? Ah well.

[Virdo.1540]

To the ventari discussion: 

 

They could simply make it work like the Scourge mechanic. 

The heal ,cleanse or whatever comes around the Tablet and around the Herald. 

 

It would be fun. And wouldnt break the theme of ventari legend.

[Yasai.3549]

21 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

To the ventari discussion: 

 

They could simply make it work like the Scourge mechanic. 

The heal ,cleanse or whatever comes around the Tablet and around the Herald. 

 

It would be fun. And wouldnt break the theme of ventari legend.

I second this. Would actually make Ventari have alot more presence.

 

16 hours ago, Echo.6310 said:

Yeah I can't agree with the idea of a  teleporting tablet. Too many times I've had to use it to clear conditions or heal for a group of allies as it was moving through them, to then open the bubble at the end of its travel to block projectiles. If it were to only teleport, you couldn't use skills as it travels through allies. You can also mace 3 and have every blast clear conditions with the bubble moving in its path. Things like that are what convince me that Anet designed everything about the legend to work as intended.

That's a good point, but I honestly can only see sliding Tablet as such a cumbersome mechanic which has its niche uses as you have described but at the cost of sacrificing overall functionality. I'm all for gutting a niche function in favor of overall improvement and QoL, always. 

Alternatively, we can have a trait be reworked to have additional interaction with Tablet. 

Vital Blessing : Healing Orbs now grant Vigor >>>>

Vital Blessing :Healing Orbs now grant Vigor. Mender's Rebuke teleports Tablet infront of the Revenant. Staff skill cooldowns reduced by 20% 

Keep slide, have a teleport functionality with Staff and reduce the cooldown for Staff. It's a pretty good compromise imo. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

To the ventari discussion: 

 

They could simply make it work like the Scourge mechanic. 

The heal ,cleanse or whatever comes around the Tablet and around the Herald. 

 

It would be fun. And wouldnt break the theme of ventari legend.

That would be far to OP and BROKEN, unless u want ventari to useless support and nerfed to hell, note that scourge will be probably hitted a bit hard on summer balance patch, i can imagine some skills reworked.

I  propose other thing that would preserver both ways to play:

Anet could remove the Orb traits and choosing the 1-1-1 could change how tablet works, this way who want to keep the current tablet would not loosing the mechanic, those who want more of a presencial supporter would choose above focused traitlines, for example:

Vital Blessing : Centaur legend effect came from the caster(removed tablet or tablet gets stuck behind toon/floating above).

Words of Censure It is a useless trait since elite ventari skill was nerfed and trait on staff 5 is awfull, change to ventari skills become X% cheaper healign utility heals more 25%(i can heal close to 1k with 25%  more would reach 1.1k heal every 3sec, outside pve would be  way  more).

Generous Abundance: Whenever a ventari legen is used leaves a (huge trail.. trust me huge)  trail of orbs behind, this would help the class to keep with the frontline while healing the players behind, current orb heal output values are nice, but the real change would be the orb trait pattern, and more orbs.

I think this would be quite strong lol.....for a real healer, and this way players that cant play anything other than minstrell  could start using the class and trait, also this would be dope with zealots stats with some clerics mixed, can have power and heal output, beside having the 2 kind of ventari on the field would be game changer :).

 

Note: Actually this would opening better gameplay for those who want to minstrell horde with ventari/jalis builds combos, but also would preserve the current mechanics.

Would improve players to play a more offensive/support role with alliance and ventari as well  :)

Note2: Ventari cant loose the tablet, thats what it serves to send tablet to where others cant reach and dont enter in conflict much :), ventari wa sa pacifist after all :), but a new way to play could be introduced tho via traitlines.

Still Anet could apply this on site support  mehcnics to other new specs like staff warrior, fix druids support etc..and just change orbs traits and 111 from ventari line to be something better than it is.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

I could see the scourge approach work if it also has a similar limitation that nobody can be affected twice even if they're in both areas. If the code can handle it, they could even make it so that both the tablet and the area around the rev share the target cap, prioritising the area around the tablet.

Maybe make it only work for the pulse heal and the cleanse, not the slide heal, bubble, or explosion.

[Aeolus.3615]

27 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I could see the scourge approach work if it also has a similar limitation that nobody can be affected twice even if they're in both areas. If the code can handle it, they could even make it so that both the tablet and the area around the rev share the target cap, prioritising the area around the tablet.

Maybe make it only work for the pulse heal and the cleanse, not the slide heal, bubble, or explosion.

That  would be awfull... if we  get that splited like a  scouge tablet will loose the big heal(u cant have 7k-10k heals on tablet and caster at same time Anet would not allow that, tablet already got nerfed from 16k to 7k), the amount of conditionts cleansed, the elite cant be a massive KB on tablet and caster, that would provoke  uber NERF to all tablet skills.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

8 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That  would be awfull... we already have problems  on the tablet heal, if we  get that splited like a  scouge tablet will loose the big heal, the amount of conditionts cleansed, the elite cant be a massive KB on tablet and caster, that would make a uber NERF to the tablet itself.

You've missed the point. By the proposal, if there were enough allies near the tablet to reach the target cap, it'd work exactly the same as it does now. But if that's not the case, then the overflow goes to the vicinity of the rev. So if, say, there are 4 allies near the tablet and the cap is 5, then those four allies would get the benefit, but one ally near the rev could also get a benefit. If the tablet is off in la-la land, up to five allies near the rev would be affected.

And I also suggested that the split target cap not affect the explosion (ie, the elite).

Edited February 18, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Aeolus.3615]

31 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You've missed the point. By the proposal, if there were enough allies near the tablet to reach the target cap, it'd work exactly the same as it does now. But if that's not the case, then the overflow goes to the vicinity of the rev. So if, say, there are 4 allies near the tablet and the cap is 5, then those four allies would get the benefit, but one ally near the rev could also get a benefit. If the tablet is off in la-la land, up to five allies near the rev would be affected.

And I also suggested that the split target cap not affect the explosion (ie, the elite).

 

Thats  way to weird...  for a healer perspective... and...that would be way to clunky and makes no sense.. we actually if we want the skills to be used by both type of players we need to search low code and time consumption solutions and present them to Anet maybe something will catch.

Would make more sense and way way more simpler from a dev perspective(would be way easier to make this way  for Anet)to just enable tablet utilities being casted on source w/o having tablet on the field, if tablet is on the field would just use tablet, this way every skill would just work normally has it works.

Orbs from the 1.1.1 traits could be boosted with more orbs, casting and detonating tablet creates an amazing loads of orbs but could be better.

This minor modifications and simple could make proly tablet more eficient to every one.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[lombomon.7268]

I hope they give Herald some love, if not with EoD release then with the summer balance patch they've mentioned. Losing 10 targets and the addition of another elite spec with DPS and support capabilities, Herald's lack of a niche is only going to get more apparent in PvE. 

[Virdo.1540]

15 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I second this. Would actually make Ventari have alot more presence.

 

That's a good point, but I honestly can only see sliding Tablet as such a cumbersome mechanic which has its niche uses as you have described but at the cost of sacrificing overall functionality. I'm all for gutting a niche function in favor of overall improvement and QoL, always. 

Alternatively, we can have a trait be reworked to have additional interaction with Tablet. 

Vital Blessing : Healing Orbs now grant Vigor >>>>

Vital Blessing :Healing Orbs now grant Vigor. Mender's Rebuke teleports Tablet infront of the Revenant. Staff skill cooldowns reduced by 20% 

Keep slide, have a teleport functionality with Staff and reduce the cooldown for Staff. It's a pretty good compromise imo. 

Dont forget that healing orbs should grant everyone healed vigor, not only the person that picks it up.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Virdo.1540

[Aeolus.3615]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:49 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

You've missed the point. By the proposal, if there were enough allies near the tablet to reach the target cap, it'd work exactly the same as it does now. But if that's not the case, then the overflow goes to the vicinity of the rev. So if, say, there are 4 allies near the tablet and the cap is 5, then those four allies would get the benefit, but one ally near the rev could also get a benefit. If the tablet is off in la-la land, up to five allies near the rev would be affected.

And I also suggested that the split target cap not affect the explosion (ie, the elite).

No i did not, u guys just miss how tablet works enterilly and whats its objective, and it makes no sense the rest of the targets avaliable to  heal triggering near the caster, that would not end well the i think we dont want a hammer 2 solution on tablet heals.... if u guys notice what ment to.

 

(note: a bit confuse but its how heals work towards party, and if u want to heal a zone would totaly loose control of the zone to heal in favour of close party alies...that ally outside m8 have been healed but would not heal others that are not in party and in the same zone, would say that would be a ratbot party heal....)

So what was pointed is If i have 4 players near me and i want to heal 1 player also in party but outside my zone in the midle of another group, that means it would prefer the closer other  party alies near the caster rather than the ones i want to heal outside the group.near that 1 party ally... and completely ignore the players or zone i want to heal wich is one of the good  things tablet alows to do it.

And would be to easy.. if i fail to heal i get heals nearby myself... that's ..kitten...

If u want to support targets glued into your position theres alreadyt all other support specs avaliablet that do a better job imo.

Edit2: I think Druid buffs towards outgoing heals support would work better than actually spend time changin tablet this much, besides druid is a CC condi bot outside pve....Check the trait from Druid Cultivated sinergy for example, lesser smaller heals arround pet and caster, while Ventari has strong heal on tablet position, Druid already has the way u guys want.

And IMO Druids needs way  more tunes that actually Ventari tablet...sicne druids has lost its theme.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Nephalem.8921]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:41 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

That's all nice and sweet but this is HERALD support thread, not "Ventari rework".

Back on the topic(s). Serene rejuvenation (trait that slaps alac on Ventari's Natural Harmony) is both bad and obsolete. It was originally introduced as a means to break chronomancer monopoly on the boon back in early 2017, pre PoF. Safe to say that issue is long gone and so should be this trait.

With alac on core gone (and good riddance), let's give Herald quickness for party. Facet of Nature could do that with a trait upgrade. Trait would have it pulse quickness but at the cost of increased energy upkeep (like 5 energy/s instead of 2).

Please dont increase energy upkeep at all. let it require high bd instead. well actually herald dps is so garbage that you need close to full berserker to be competetive. if anything lower energy upkeep costs across the board so herald can leave the aa afk meme rotation behind.

Scourge gets all the braindead faceroll memes but herald is actually a lot worse. upkeep + aa and not enough energy to use your skills. well most skills are not worth using anyways.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

14 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Please dont increase energy upkeep at all. let it require high bd instead. well actually herald dps is so garbage that you need close to full berserker to be competetive. if anything lower energy upkeep costs across the board so herald can leave the aa afk meme rotation behind.

Scourge gets all the braindead faceroll memes but scourge is actually a lot worse. upkeep + aa and not enough energy to use your skills. well most skills are not worth using anyways.

Herald damage is a very hard discussion to be had and should be put off for later.
Reason being support meta and landscape is about to change, bigtime. Meta supports (fb, scourge, renegade) are scheduled for nerfs.  New EoD supports will step in (Harbingers, Mechanists, Specters, Vindicators). Not to mention core rangers and warriors getting reworks to their support skills (spirits and banners).

Once dust settles on all that we'll be able to talk where a given support specs ranks among it's peers and what damage it should boast in relation to that.

Let's also keep in mind that Herald's dps numbers aren't supposed to be competitive, but slightly behind. That's because Herald is the defensive support and his main forte is consistency and reliability in all he does. He may look like garbage on training golems but in real battles where you have to deal with mechanics (some of which herald can happily ignore)  and party members who aren't exactly focused on staying near you to catch all the boons - that's where he shines and carries.

Edited February 22, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076