Upcoming Changes to "The Battle For The Jade Sea"

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

I'd say succes should not rely on getting lucky with the RNG.

Today I tried it again, with a competent group. We were basically denied a win due to getting "Unlucky" which is absolutely and utterly unacceptable in a Meta with such a long and grindy preperation phase.

When you get your 10 events, when you do the escorts fast, and then get bad luck at the end fight and denied the win, that makes me furious.

REMOVE the RNG.

This is what happened:

1st CC phase at 81%: Useless, 30 seconds exposed lost. Nice one.
2nd CC phase at 61%... you gotta be kidding right?
3rd CC phase SECONDS after tail, everyone runs for tail, and BOOM CC bar comes up and we're at the tail... nice twist... was btw at 43%...
And if all that is not enough: we get a lag spike and immediatly see the clock drop from 7 to 3 and a half minute in 5 seconds time... SERIOUSLY??? That is the 4th time I see this happen.

This all, makes me mad, steaming mad.

Look, you announced there will be a 4th expansion in the future... I for one will NOT pre-order this unless you win my trust back, because right now... it is zero. Right now, I deeply regret pre-ordering this expansion. 

The entire expansion, for me, is overshadowed by this horrible RNG fest of a so called Meta.

Don't let Luck be a factor in a 2 hour event. That is just flipping the bird to your player base. RNG on this meta should, at this stage, be reduced to ZERO. 

Right now, IF I try it again and happen to win, I am happy, that means I can finish the achievements and NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER return to this HORRIBLE Meta EVER AGAIN!

 

[Kaliwenda.3428]

6 hours ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

There is something to consider when we talk about commander tags: just because someone has one does not mean that he is ready or willing to lead an entire map to complete a massive meta event.

When it comes to dragon's end, it is expected that the person with a tag creates the squad with enough time so that everyone can get to their map and get 10 buff stacks from events, organize them in subgroups with at least quickness and alacrity in mind, assign those subgroups to different tasks during the meta and even making some calls for CC or tail during the fight.

There are some things about this meta that is just a matter of community knowledge (it happens with all meta events btw)... at this point anyone with some experience knows when to CC, when to hit the tail, how to do greens or that all platform bosses need to die within a small window of time. In this case, general knowledge about the fight is increasing, but people doing the event seems to be getting lower and player perception about this event and how a successful squad should look has already been stablished.

This means that the kind of player that doesn't really need a leader because he already knows what to do during the fight is looking for that kind of squads anyway because that player knows that to have a successful run, having that kind of commander highly increases his chances even if he has to spend 30 minutes trying to join a full map. As a consequence, this groups have a very high demand, but they are rare, so this is causing that those groups and maps are full almost one hour before the meta starts. Less experienced players arrive later and join other type of squads that are less organized and usually fail the event.

How much of this is a consequence of player perception? how much of that perception is actually justified? What can they do about it?

In my opinion the fight is pretty much okay, it could certainly use some tweaks when it comes to RNG with tails and changing sides. But there are two map elements that are doing more harm than good and are not helping to make the event more accessible. The first one is the buff from completing events and the second one is the zone preparation levels. The issues with both is that they have a combat benefit tied to them and that is one of the reasons why going to the map early is required, specially when player perception dictates that having 10 stacks and all zones fully prepared is a must.

By doing this the goal should be that a wider variety of squads have a better chance and when less organized squads with less preparation time, no subgroups for buffs and some really chaotic splits start having more success, player perception will begin to change and this meta event will be playable for more people.

Today I saw a squad advertising that was looking for specific builds to be able to join.  I don't currently have any of the builds they were looking for.

On my second run of the day I got in a map that had good organization and communication from the very start but didn't have specific build requirements.  This group got farther than any other I've been in so far, but still failed in the end.  It was a cordial group the whole way thru and ended with lots of "thanks" and "we'll get it next time" and that type of thing.  It feels like a lot of folks like me who took their time getting to the end are just hitting the meta now so there is a mix of familiarity with what to do/where to go/what to expect.

I've got 17/18 of the achievements in Jade Sea Warfare, the last one being Defeat the Dragon. I've been running the events and participating and getting as many buffs as I can.  I really hope that people stick with it and don't abandon it, that's my biggest worry - getting shut out because I either don't play the required build or others just give up on the meta altogether.

 

[Jonathan.8905]

Finally throwing my opinion for more changes to this event after three fails in a row today.  Would like to see a timer change more than anything; either more time added or have the timer stop when she is unattackable such as the whip phases or split phases.  

[SinisterSlay.6973]

Needed like 10 more seconds to win this last time.  Brutal.  Even had detailed parties and a good commander.

I can see why this is turning toxic.  Anything less then toxic and it can't be completed.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Joined another run yesterday, finished it with 2 minutes spare, we had 2 CCs, 1 of them was during tail, so we had Exposed only once. Greens lasted their full duration, because other than a few people noone managed to do it in time. ~15 people downed by every attack. We failed the second split once. 

I'm starting to be skeptical about all the comments complaining how this is impossible to do.
The only one run that failed was the one where the map filled around the end of the escorts, even that failed at 11%. Completely unorganized group.

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Joined another run yesterday, finished it with 2 minutes spare, we had 2 CCs, 1 of them was during tail, so we had Exposed only once. Greens lasted their full duration, because other than a few people noone managed to do it in time. ~15 people downed by every attack. We failed the second split once. 

I'm starting to be skeptical about all the comments complaining how this is impossible to do.
The only one run that failed was the one where the map filled around the end of the escorts, even that failed at 11%. Completely unorganized group.

It's survivorship bias. Someone calculated that you need 7k dps on average to succeed.

The average open world meta has somewhere around 4k - 5k average (not just on DE but also on Octo and others). Just means you ended up on maps with unusually high DPS. Whatever you're doing to find groups appears to be self selecting with mostly other pretty good players. 

A lot of factors can improve and decrease your chances. Like good or bad CC phases. But in the end, it's not because of anything specific you did. It's whether you're on a map that has a chance or not. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

It's survivorship bias. Someone calculated that you need 7k dps on average to succeed.

The average open world meta has somewhere around 4k - 5k average (not just on DE but also on Octo and others). Just means you ended up on maps with unusually high DPS. Whatever you're doing to find groups appears to be self selecting with mostly other pretty good players. 

Well, yes, I seek out groups that try to finish the meta and not screw around, isn't it obvious? Maybe if others tried to do the same then they wouldn't be sitting here complaining that "it's a Raid".

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Well, yes, I seek out groups that try to finish the meta and not screw around, isn't it obvious? Maybe if others tried to do the same then they wouldn't be sitting here complaining that "it's a Raid".

You do understand that this just means the average community is incapable of finishing the event, right?

If they were spreading out evenly between maps where each map has an equal amount of experienced players, average players and inexperienced players then the majority would fail.

The only reason you and your groups succeed is because most others, filled with less experienced players, don't. Because you pre select into groups without them. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You do understand that this just means the average community is incapable of finishing the event, right?

Can we stop treating the "average community" like they are babies? Why are you implying that opening the LFG and choosing a squad to join is too hard for the "average community"?

17 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

If they were spreading out evenly between maps where each map has an equal amount of experienced players, average players and inexperienced players then the majority would fail.

People have been filling maps ever since events requiring a lot of people existed. As I said, the inexperienced player can join the same squad as anyone else. Considering how most of my latest examples each have Soulbeasts going 3-4k DPS, people dying from every AoE I don't think the "inexperienced" is being pushed out.

19 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The only reason you and your groups succeed is because most others, filled with less experienced players, don't. Because you pre select into groups without them. 

Ahahaha. Didn't know clicking on a random group from LFG is pre-selecting squads with only hardcore Raiders, surely if I'd join squads without inexperienced people there wouldn't be people with lower DPS than healers, right? Right?

Stop pretending that people joining squads is the reason those, who can't be bothered to join a squad or can't be bothered to do the bare minimum pull their group down.
Those players have the opportunity to join the same squad as I'm in, if they don't want to join then don't blame me, simple as that.

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Can we stop treating the "average community" like they are babies? Why are you implying that opening the LFG and choosing a squad to join is too hard for the "average community"?

People have been filling maps ever since events requiring a lot of people existed. As I said, the inexperienced player can join the same squad as anyone else. Considering how most of my latest examples each have Soulbeasts going 3-4k DPS, people dying from every AoE I don't think the "inexperienced" is being pushed out.

Ahahaha. Didn't know clicking on a random group from LFG is pre-selecting squads with only hardcore Raiders, surely if I'd join squads without inexperienced people there wouldn't be people with lower DPS than healers, right? Right?

Stop pretending that people joining squads is the reason those, who can't be bothered to join a squad or can't be bothered to do the bare minimum pull their group down.
Those players have the opportunity to join the same squad as I'm in, if they don't want to join then don't blame me, simple as that.

As I said. It's not new that the average community has a not terribly high DPS. That's been the case with every meta.

If they were spread evenly the success rate would drop drastically.

I'm not sure how exactly you find groups. I'm sure it feels entirely normal to you but somehow some people here clear runs back to back easily (as has been the case since week 1) while others in the open world meme before the escort even starts things like "Welcome to fail #234124". 

Which suggests there is a discrepancy somewhere in there. Like, wanna compare DPS logs? You do the thing you usually do and I join a regular open world group by following a friend who's come back after 5 years of taking a break? Compare the performance and try to spot what could possibly have been different?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

13 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

As I said. It's not new that the average community has a not terribly high DPS. That's been the case with every meta.

If they were spread evenly the success rate would drop drastically.

I'm not sure how exactly you find groups. I'm sure it feels entirely normal to you but somehow some people here clear runs back to back easily (as has been the case since week 1) while others in the open world meme before the escort even starts things like "Welcome to fail #234124". 

Which suggests there is a discrepancy somewhere in there. Like, wanna compare DPS logs? You do the thing you usually do and I join a regular open world group by following a friend who's come back after 5 years of taking a break? Compare the performance and try to spot what could possibly have been different?

I find groups by opening the LFG, however I will share my secret, look for squads that ask for specific roles, if you can't play boon DPS, just join as DPS. It's that simple.

[SinisterSlay.6973]

So question. Compared to EOD meta. How are raids?

I've always avoided them because of the build requirements. But if they really aren't harder than this meta or the latest strike. Maybe I should try them?

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I find groups by opening the LFG, however I will share my secret, look for squads that ask for specific roles, if you can't play boon DPS, just join as DPS. It's that simple.

Two questions.

1: What about people who don't? Should they just fail constantly in the open world? What if no such squads are available or the maps are always full and someone doesn't have time pressing join map -> Ok -> join map for 30 minutes?

2: What about my comment regarding average DPS and necessary DPS on this map? Which means if the average player were to join your groups you too would fail?

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

So question. Compared to EOD meta. How are raids?

I've always avoided them because of the build requirements. But if they really aren't harder than this meta or the latest strike. Maybe I should try them?

The main difference are a few key mechanics that easily cause the entire squad to wipe. Doing the mechanics right isn't more difficult but the consequences are more significant. The meta requires some gimmicks you've probably not used often. Reflection, stability or rooting are actually used strategically. So you need to know what's expected of you and understand the encounter. CC is even more important. If you play DPS, have power and condi dps available. Some bosses take very little damage from one of the two. And make sure your builds are actually meta (with at least exotic equipment). 

Effort for the commander is higher. And there's often 1 - 3 special jobs that also require more knowledge and effort. 

But overall it's fairly similar.

If you are at that point, you can totally look up a training guild or community and give it a shot! (Assuming you've cleared harvest temple) They are there exactly for people like you to transition into it.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SinisterSlay.6973]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

The main difference are a few key mechanics that easily cause the entire squad to wipe. Doing the mechanics right isn't more difficult but the consequences are more significant. The meta requires some gimmicks you've probably not used often. Reflection, stability or rooting are actually used strategically. So you need to know what's expected of you and understand the encounter. CC is even more important. If you play DPS, have power and condi dps available. Some bosses take very little damage from one of the two. 

Effort for the commander is higher. And there's often 1 - 3 special jobs that also require more knowledge and effort. 

But overall it's fairly similar.

Doesn't sound like that big of a gap to clear then. 

[Erise.5614]

Just now, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

Doesn't sound like that big of a gap to clear then. 

Assuming you've done harvest temple, it shouldn't be a big gap at all. If your gear is up to standards it should be very doable. Look up raid training communities. They are exactly for people like you. Who are familiar with the game and combat mechanics, are ready gear wise but don't quite know how to start raiding. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

1: What about people who don't? Should they just fail constantly in the open world? What if no such squads are available or the maps are always full and someone doesn't have time pressing join map -> Ok -> join map for 30 minutes?

LFG is available to everyone, their problem if they don't use it. I've been in a squad where I only managed to get into the map less than 15 minutes before the start of the Escort.

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

2: What about my comment regarding average DPS and necessary DPS on this map? Which means if the average player were to join your groups you too would fail?

So.. can the average player join squads through LFG or not? Before you considered looking for a squad too much for the average player, now it isn't?
Regardless, maybe, half the squad is usually below 10k DPS anyways with 10-15, maybe more people being below 5k. Never had problems with that so far.
The only close call was when we had 41 people in total, half of them not even hitting 8k DPS, we finished with less than half a minute to spare.

8 minutes ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

So question. Compared to EOD meta. How are raids?

I've always avoided them because of the build requirements. But if they really aren't harder than this meta or the latest strike. Maybe I should try them?

Don't believe anyone calling this meta Raid difficulty.
The game provides you with 20% damage boost for doing events, the Jade Boosts further increase your damage. People are expected to do atleast 7k DPS. In Raids you deal 7k DPS you get yelled at, considering healers are around 3-5k DPS.

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Regardless, maybe, half the squad is usually below 10k DPS anyways with 10-15, maybe more people being below 5k. Never had problems with that so far.
The only close call was when we had 41 people in total, half of them not even hitting 8k DPS, we finished with less than half a minute to spare.

That is absurdly high. In most open world content you're lucky to get 5 people who deal >10k. Again, squad average is usually somewhere around 4k-5k. Having only 10 people at around that level and half your squad at double that is extremely far removed from the average open world clear. Heck, even in a raid I'd expect more people with less DPS as there's usually like 2 - 3 supports per 10 people who deal like 2k-4k. 

And I truly don't mean just DE. I'm talking about playing Dragon's Stand, Shatterer, Pinata and all the other open world content too. The numbers you're seeing there are extremely far off of what the average player base is doing. 

[Tachenon.5270]

Ya know, it's occurred to me that the 'git gud' thing is only half the battle here. Meta-phorically speaking.

Before the DE meta thing I never paid all that much attention to boons, but lately I've begun to really notice when they're not there. Particularly the ones that increase attack speed and recharge. Quickness and alacrity, right? Feels awful, sitting there waiting for a skill to be ready again. Like, I could get up and go to the kitchen and bake a pie before that drenched in ice cold molasses <whatever> skill recharges. So I thought, hey, maybe I should try playing some support builds! Help spread that sweet boon-y love among the unwashed (casual) masses.

Now, gearing up for DPS isn't too bad. Most DPS builds are Berserker armor w/Scholar runes. The armor is not much of a problem, and I don't feel bad skimping on the Scholar runes, which strike me as impractical as my guys are seldom undamaged enough to benefit from them.

But when it comes to the meta support builds, and some of the condi builds, it's always the same: the recommended gear is out of my reach. Can't afford to buy it, can't afford to craft it, or it's only attainable via farming (aka BORING GRIND TO GET TO THE FUN STUFF). Like the plaguedoctor armor I wanted for my ranger-turned-druid, with those nifty Super Duper Runes of the Blankety Blanking Tempest. Gosh, that armor is expensive on the TP. Buying a set would wipe me out, after all I've spent updating the gear on a couple of other characters recently. kitten alts. Maybe I can craft it. A few pieces at a time. What's this? Can't learn the recipe for the inscription for the exotic armor? Gotta buy it from a map currency vendor? For every single piece? And of course, I don't have much of that map currency because I used it for something else long ago, and furthermore I am not in the least bit interested in replaying (aka GRINDING) that particular map YET AGAIN so that I can play my druid in the shiny new EOD metas. As for those Super Duper Runes of the Tempest, well, they can be crafted, but first you gotta buy or craft Super Duper Runes of the Elementalist, and once again the expense of doing either is, well, just too damned expensive. So, ya know, to hell with it. Cheap, substitute gear it is! Half-baked boons are better than none, I suppose.

The word that comes to mind is: IMPEDIMENT. Why so many impediments, if the goal is for the player base at large to be able to handle epically challenging stuff like the DE meta? Does anet want us to 'git gud' or not? If so, ya know -- help! Or at least, don't hinder.

Blah blah blah, gold is easy to get, go farm this or that, blah blah blah, you could make over 9000 gold in 5 minutes if you weren't so lazy, blah blah blah.

No.

/e bring on them confuse-y faces

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

41 minutes ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Now, gearing up for DPS isn't too bad. Most DPS builds are Berserker armor w/Scholar runes. The armor is not much of a problem, and I don't feel bad skimping on the Scholar runes, which strike me as impractical as my guys are seldom undamaged enough to benefit from them.

But when it comes to the meta support builds, and some of the condi builds, it's always the same: the recommended gear is out of my reach. Can't afford to buy it, can't afford to craft it, or it's only attainable via farming (aka BORING GRIND TO GET TO THE FUN STUFF). Like the plaguedoctor armor I wanted for my ranger-turned-druid, with those nifty Super Duper Runes of the Blankety Blanking Tempest. Gosh, that armor is expensive on the TP. Buying a set would wipe me out, after all I've spent updating the gear on a couple of other characters recently. kitten alts. Maybe I can craft it. A few pieces at a time. What's this? Can't learn the recipe for the inscription for the exotic armor? Gotta buy it from a map currency vendor? For every single piece? And of course, I don't have much of that map currency because I used it for something else long ago, and furthermore I am not in the least bit interested in replaying (aka GRINDING) that particular map YET AGAIN so that I can play my druid in the shiny new EOD metas. As for those Super Duper Runes of the Tempest, well, they can be crafted, but first you gotta buy or craft Super Duper Runes of the Elementalist, and once again the expense of doing either is, well, just too damned expensive. So, ya know, to hell with it. Cheap, substitute gear it is! Half-baked boons are better than none, I suppose.

The word that comes to mind is: IMPEDIMENT. Why so many impediments, if the goal is for the player base at large to be able to handle epically challenging stuff like the DE meta? Does anet want us to 'git gud' or not? If so, ya know -- help! Or at least, don't hinder.

Blah blah blah, gold is easy to get, go farm this or that, blah blah blah, you could make over 9000 gold in 5 minutes if you weren't so lazy, blah blah blah.

No.

/e bring on them confuse-y faces

That DPS gear is more expensive than your Druid's planned gear.

[Tachenon.5270]

4 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

That DPS gear is more expensive than your Druid's planned gear.

That's not true.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

That's not true.

I can craft the gear you mentioned for ~20 gold+6k VM+125 Inscribed Shards(~20 gold in VM). A set of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes costs 65-70 gold. 

20(/~40) gold is less than 65-70 gold.

[Tachenon.5270]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I can craft the gear you mentioned for ~20 gold+6k VM+125 Inscribed Shards(~20 gold in VM). A set of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes costs 65-70 gold. 

20(/~40) gold is less than 65-70 gold.

Meanwhile, I'd buy a set of Nika's armor for...

Chest -- 89 silver

Leggings -- 87 silver

Gloves -- 69 silver

Headgear -- 69 silver

Boots -- 84 silver

Shoulders -- 81 silver

But whatever. Spend it if you got it, I guess.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

5 minutes ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Meanwhile, I'd buy a set of Nika's armor for...

Chest -- 89 silver

Leggings -- 87 silver

Gloves -- 69 silver

Headgear -- 69 silver

Boots -- 84 silver

Shoulders -- 81 silver

But whatever. Spend it if you got it, I guess.

You forgot your runes, which at their cheapest would still be 30 gold combined, so, almost 35 gold for Berserker's+Runes compared to ~20 gold for Plaguedoctor's + Runes, ~40 gold if you count VM for it's worth in coins.
If we only consider the armor in each case they are fairly close too.

[Tachenon.5270]

12 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You forgot your runes, which at their cheapest would still be 30 gold combined, so, almost 35 gold for Berserker's+Runes compared to ~20 gold for Plaguedoctor's + Runes, ~40 gold if you count VM for it's worth in coins.
If we only consider the armor in each case they are fairly close too.

I didn't forget the runes. I think I have one guy with Scholar runes. Not sure what profession. I generally don't use Scholar runes because I don't think they're worth it, for reasons stated previously.

Ah. My holosmith has the Scholar runes. She's got the same gear she's had since the early days of POF, so they were probably a little less expensive when I bought them for her. Nika's coat, gloves, and leggings. 🙂 Funerary Mask (grieving), Holosmith's Lucent Vent (berserker), and Grieving Stalker Boots.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Tachenon.5270
whee