Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Astralporing.1957]

21 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Duh. Apparently it's considered evil to refer to common sense nowadays.

Well, common sense rarely helps you with complex math problems. Especially if you only see small parts of the equations and the key parts are hidden from view.

[Ghostkat.9580]

1 hour ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Lmfao.
"Rotations." 
"Cue's."
"Training."

A game built where the overwhelmingly majority of game play is open world/public and now you have to be a raider to experience content.

Anet was warned about this when they implemented raids in HoT. About how the 1% 'ers were going to dictate content.
 

This isn't raid content. You do NOT have to know a rotation to beat this meta. Mechanically-speaking, it isn't even on the level of a Final Fantasy XIV normal mode trial from A Realm Reborn content. It's a very basic and simple, mechanically. These arguments of trying to turn it into "casuals vs hardcores" or "raiders vs everyone else" are really silly fabrications so that effort-averse people who want to be able to sleepwalk through or get carried through content and get the rewards don't have to work for their rewards by arguing this is content designed for only the hardest of the corest in the hopes that ANet will dumb it down so they can clear it without having to try.

The truth is, there's a very big spectrum of players. A "casual" isn't necessarily effort-averse. A casual player can try their best and still put in effort to prepare and do mechanics to the fullest of their ability. They aren't 1%'ers, but they understand this is a game where content expects the players to adapt to whatever it throws at them and it's their responsibility to overcome challenges, including showing up prepared for that content. That doesn't mean they're all of a sudden raiders. This is a ridiculous talking point and I really wish people would stop making it. 

My first clear of this meta was in a comp that was very poor for boons and most people weren't raiders, doing meta rotations or using optimized builds. My second clear was exactly the same situation. I have seen people beat this doing meme runs using all Mechanists for the lulz, and I have seen people beat this for fun without doing the pre-events and organizing groups that show up at the last minute without the 10% bonus.

Every time I have been in a group that has failed, usually at least one of the following has occurred without exception:

1) People acting entitled to a clear simply because the game allows them into the area, without believing any basic preparation is necessary on their part.

I have had people tell me this is "gatekeeping," but then other people swooped in to say it isn't if you're struggling to clear the content. This is a videogame, it's "final boss" material, and that means you should be applying everything you have learned up to this point in order to clear it. If you neglected to learn up to this point, that's on you.

Just because the boss is accessible and you can reach her, that doesn't mean you should be able to clear the fight without basic preparation.

For whatever reason, a lot of people who lump themselves in with "casuals" are also averse to gearing sensibly for what they're doing or how they're playing. This is super counter-intuitive; if I wanted to make life easier for myself without having to overextend my efforts, it'd make sense for me to gear up as much as possible and take whatever food buffs I can since my stats go way up, including my damage and survivability. I prepare because it makes life easier for me, not to flex over others about my damage numbers on ArcDPS. This also includes me knowing that a fight with CC mechanics is going to expect me to bring CC so making sure I make life easier for myself by bringing a decent CC skill along. And yet, people act like they shouldn't have to do any of that simply because they're able to be there, therefore they should be able to get a clear just because. Gear up and make life easier for yourself instead of demanding the content be nerfed because you're too lazy to prepare.

2) People refusing to use CC skills because they expect other people to take care of it.

I have commanded squads running DE where I have outright asked people do not know what CC skills are, clarifying that I was just trying to help and there's no shame if you don't know, we just wanted to make sure everyone knew what to do. No one would answer. I would spend time explaining it anyway, under the assumption that people were shy and didn't want to incriminate themselves in not knowing a basic mechanic, and others would see where I was going with it and chime in, too. We spent time and effort explaining the Defiance Bar mechanic, how to know what skills use CC, and that it was crucial to the fight.

When CC was going too slow to clear the fight, after the fact people would say they didn't have any CC equipped. WHY!? We spent all that time going over it so you would know to do that, because it's needed. 

It's because they don't want to, that's why. Even though they were told it's essential to clear the fight, if they don't feel like it, they're not going to do it.

People who expect carries refuse to accept that this is an "everyone needs to do their part" kind of encounter. You aren't entitled to rewards because you expect everyone else to do the heavy lifting. If people spend time trying to help you with the clear and you don't take their advice because you feel like you shouldn't have to, and that the game should bend to you, then you're being entitled.

It's not a radical change to your playstyle to bring one utility skill along or have an alternate weapon to swap to in the event that the defiance bar pops up. You can always swap right back. It's a momentary thing, and not a huge deal. Refusing to accept that the game accepts things from you and blaming the encounter for not letting you steamroll it is a personal accountability issue.

3) People not listening to the commander who is trying to help them, and talking back.

This is an MMORPG, and group content requires teamwork. Just because we've had zerg content in the past doesn't mean everything in the game is that way, nor does it mean that everything has to be or should be that way. If you choose to be obstinate instead of a team player, you shouldn't act entitled to a reward for content which expects everyone to pull their weight.

4) Conversely, bad commanders who don't know what they're doing.

Plenty of people put up their tag for the power trip, but haven't cleared the fight and don't bother to know mechanics, let alone have any real leadership skills or experience commanding a squad.

5) AFKers. I keep seeing people hanging out on the airship after they die, not immediately rushing back into the fight.

6) Passive players who insist on playing "support" against a fight that's a DPS check because they have the fantasy of being "helpful" without actually having to output a whole lot of effort.

If you want to main a healer, because that's what you're into, that's fine and all, but different content is different, and you need to adjust to the needs of each encounter. There's a limit to how many boons players can receive, so a group only needs so many support players. Players need to be able to read the room and realize when their "help" isn't actually doing anything, when what would really help the group to kill something under a time limit is more damage. If half a squad is running support, when the group is struggling to break CC bars and get past DPS checks, that's an issue.

People need to realize that the build and equipment system enables everyone to be a veritable swiss army knife to bring the right tool for the right job. Just as you wouldn't use a scalpel for road work and you wouldn't use a jackhammer for delicate surgery, there's a time and place for everything. The problem is, people either get stubborn and refuse to adjust - which is not a problem with the game's design, it's an entitled player issue - and blame the game for not holding their hand to something which should be self-evident as a way to avoid personal accountability for not thinking before they act.

The fight is, first and foremost, a DPS check and a CC check. This much, you should know after doing it a couple of times. If someone refuses to try and bring damage and CC because they insist on being a support no matter what, then at that point, that's practically griefing, because they know exactly what the fight expects of them but are choosing to go against that at everyone else's expense.

7) People who blame the game instead of being observant.

Aurene literally does shot-calling for you and tells you what to do, but none of that should be necessary because no matter how much you want to say "it's your first time," if you've even made it to this point then you should very well know that if you see an orange area on the ground, that's the bad, and standing in the bad will get you killed.

I see people freezing like a deer in headlights when the Tsunami mechanic happens, as Aurene is calling out what is happening, and get stomped by it, and then blame the game or it being their first time, instead of... y'know... moving out of the way.

I also see people not run to the tail when the commander tells them to, and they still attack the head when the head has the damage resistance buff which only goes away when you break the tail. It's super noticeable because it'll be the only blue icon she has amongst a sea of red conditions, and squad commanders always put out squad messages to go to the tail. People don't listen, so the tail doesn't get broken in time, and they keep attacking the head. While Aurene is also shouting out loud to break the tail.

But it's the game's fault, apparently, because basic mechanics that make Leviathan Normal Mode from ARR in FFXIV look challenging by mechanics are now "raid-level"... smh...

Rhetoric is one hell of an opiate for the masses...

8 )  Griefers.

Yeah, sadly this is a thing. There are people who intentionally throw the encounter. ANet has been pretty good about dealing with them, though.

9) Expecting someone else to spoon-feed them all the fight's mechanics, even when there is ample time before the fight to mention if you're new and don't know what you're doing.

The encounter has been out for more than a month now. There are guides. People who have been nice enough to try and explain the fight beforehand get burned out when all they receive in return is people talking back to them. After a while, they're naturally going to assume you have done this enough to the point where you know what to do. If you don't... it's your responsibility to speak up. There are 50 people in a squad, it's really entitled of you to assume that the squad leader should be at your beck and call and ask you personally whether or not you know what you're doing. And yet, I see people arguing this is what squad leaders should do. And then I've seen squad leaders do it, see everyone be silent, and then I've seen squad leaders go over the mechanics anyway only for nobody to listen because people want to be stubborn.

If you have made repeated attempts to clear and failed each time, it's not someone else's responsibility to spoon-feed you anything. You should take it upon yourself to look up what to do, and then focus on making sure you are doing your part to the best of your ability. 

No organized squad should be necessary for this encounter at all. The mechanics are basic, you just need to know them, be observant and do your own thing the best you can. If you do that, and pay attention to what's going on, and then if everyone does that, then the fight is an easy clap. But if you refuse personal accountability for what you can do to make your part in this fight easier, then that's on you. You should take the time to look up what to do and take your own initiative, instead of demanding other people do it for you.

I never played the early portion of the game. I'm a booster and a skipper. The thing is, I have played enough videogames to know that if there's a big orange shape on the ground, that's the bad, and you don't stand in the bad. I've played games like Monster Hunter to look for the obvious tells the monster does and dodge out of it. When people were constantly shouting "use CC" and I didn't know what that meant, as FFXIV doesn't have a defiance bar mechanic, I didn't expect anyone to give me a sermon about it ahead of time. I asked, and if there was something I was confused about, I'd take it upon myself to look it up. No one else is responsible for your lack of initiative to learn if there's something you don't understand.

10) Internet tantrums.

It should come as no surprise, but this is actually the #1 reason. When Teapot and Snebzor cleared, they were accused of being "elitist" and "ableist" (in a complete misusing of both terms) because people didn't want to acknowledge that this fight was totally beatable if you just did your part. They wanted to be mad on the internet. Teapot put out a guide on how to clear and he got harassed for it. Snebzor tried to positively encourage people to realize they had it in them to succeed in this fight, and he got flamed on reddit for it.

Firstly, it's not elitism to say they've cleared by just doing what the game expects of them. Unless anyone's saying "I'm better than you," and trying to use their clears to flex over you for it, that's not elitism, nor is it elitism to point out the very fact that any of the above situations have indeed been realities we have seen inhibiting clears. We do indeed see people just freezing like a deer in headlights in the middle of an orange puddle they should probably move out of, at a point in the game where there's no legitimate excuse to not know to get out of the orange area because that's where the damage happens, and then complain that this fight is impossible. It's not elitism to say that we see basic failures of common sense occurring in this fight. It's an observation, not an insult or a put-down. If you're engaging in any of those behaviours, perhaps try not being a boon to the stereotype?

Secondly, as someone who spent the first couple years of her foray into MMORPGs in a wheelchair following a horse-riding accident, I take umbrage to the use of "ableism" as an insult against people who are just able to clear some videogame content. That has nothing to do with "ableism," it's actually an incredibly insensitive and offensive use of that term against people who have cleared, and the people who have said that should be ashamed of themselves.

But of course, it has nothing to do with that. We live today in an internet outrage culture, so when people want what they want but don't want to put in the effort to get it, they think throwing a hard enough tantrum to get the game to bend over backward for them is the path to success over putting in the work. That's a terrible lesson to teach and I'm wholly against it. When I got into FFXIV, I was what I would call a "casual" player. I wasn't an effort-averse player; I tried my best, but I wasn't going out of my way to clear Ultimate raids and brag about my parses. When I got onto a Discord server to ask a benign question about how a particular trait worked due to the wording being funny and one of the raid community's mentors took the opportunity to be an ACTUAL elitist, belittling me and telling me I was in need of remediation for daring to ask a simple question, and going out of his way to make me feel like I'm incapable of succeeding at high-level content, did I cry on the internet about how he was being a jerk? No. Did I use my disability at the time (being confined to a wheelchair) as an excuse to say he was being "ableist" and should've been more sensitive to my inability to want to push myself to perform beyond my means due to getting PTSD of my accident (which is a thing I would indeed experience when being put into those situations)? No.

I come from fighting games. MMOs aren't what I would call hard, even at their most challenging. People who complain about rotations being "difficult" have never done Order Sol's Dragon Install Sekkai consistently, or done the Daigo Parry challenge in Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike. I played FFXIV to relax and have virtual legs to run around in, but if I want a challenge, I play games made of sterner stuff.

So you know what I did instead of crying about it? I got into raiding, to prove he was wrong. And when I cleared a raid tier with orange parses, using a more demanding higher-speed and higher-performance rotation than what he was prescribing for the game's most demanding job to play, while he was booted from that raiding community for being outed as a cheater who automated his rotations, I was vindicated, and it felt good.

Put up or shut up, I say. If you think someone's being elitist, then prove yourself up to the challenge to shut them up. I don't think whiners about this content who just want something to rage at on the internet should be validated in the slightest. I think, if anything, the turtle should be locked behind it again. It's quite common for mounts to be rewards for content clears, and it's rather fitting that the mount which involves teamwork and cooperation to use is locked behind an encounter which requires teamwork and cooperation to obtain. In my eyes, it should be exclusive to those who are willing to do what it takes to get, and serve as that status symbol. You want it and can't clear? Learn to play nice with others and be a member of the community, in this massive multiplayer online role-playing game. I'm not entitled to Dhuum's scythe just because I want it and think it looks cool. I understand if I want it, I have to work for it, and if it comes from instanced group content, I need to know how to play nice with others.

The turtle as a status symbol does just that. It's also powerful against some of the mobs in DE. I don't think something like that should be handed out to just anyone, especially since it's not compulsory for clearing the story the way the raptor and its canyon jumping mastery were in PoF. It's a fun bonus which, in all likelihood, most of you just want for the sake of having, will play around with it for 5 minutes and get bored, or only want it to show off to others that you have it, in which case, we get back to it being a status symbol thing. If that's what it is to you, then it should be in the hands of those deserving of it through their efforts, not in the hands of anyone.

For this fight, I had trouble clearing for a while, but made an effort to clear before the changes were implemented, because I wanted to get my turtle the honourable way to prove that I could do it, for me, not to anyone else. I wouldn't be satisfied with myself if I didn't get my clear in before any changes to make it easier. As someone who became a raider in another MMORPG while being in a wheelchair and made to feel I wasn't able to do something, I needed this for myself. And for me, it was fun, and very easy, with the only obstacles being the sort of people who weren't pulling their weight for one reason or another in content that expects everyone to do their part.

My #1 problem with this fight is that it's too easy, and future content should do a better job of gatekeeping players out of story until they show they can understand basic mechanics. The tutorial area was a nice step in the right direction, but it's not a true tutorial if it doesn't absolutely make sure players repeat the same task multiple times to show they understand what they're doing before letting them proceed. Making it a heart vendor and allowing people to pick and choose a small set of activities in a public space, instead of forcing a private instance where the player is FORCED to break the CC bar 3 times before allowing them to proceed in stories. Players need to learn the hard way that they're not deserving of a clear just for being there; this is a videogame, and each boss fight should be an evaluation of the player putting into practice everything they have learned up to that point, so that by the time players get to an end-game boss like this, they all know the basics of CC bars and the like. I just get flashbacks of Leviathan from FFXIV ARR, and remembering how for an easy beginner fight, at least Levi would slam the platform, causing players to slide off the arena if they weren't observant of the obvious tell he was going to hit the platform and didn't quickly run to the other side. I think we need that to weed out all the people who very clearly don't pay attention to obvious tells and blame the game to avoid personal accountability for not paying attention to what's happening around them.

If a 40-year-old mum who barely has time to game between a full-time job, physical therapy, a child and four cats to look after, while recovering from surgery, can do this, and if one of her guild members - a grandmother in her mid-60s with rheumatoid arthritis can do this - you have no excuse other than laziness or the desire to make a stink on the internet to feel self-validation for why you can't do this. It's not an issue with the game... it's an issue with you.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Ghostkat.9580

[Zephire.8049]

54 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Duh. Apparently it's considered evil to refer to common sense nowadays.

Common sense only applies when you have a homogeneous group of people from the same area who were raised in the same way with the same values.

An MMO that encompasses the world, has 3 data centres (granted the Chinese one is cut off from NA and EU), and where players speak and read dozens of languages at varying degrees with various levels of overlap are not a homogeneous group and while it may be basic, actually spelling things out clearly and concisely is needed in video games for those who have a limited grasp of the language, especially if there's no localization that is easier to understand or the localization they can read easier was poorly translated.

People who have played multiple video games (especially MMOs) and who are fluent in English may be able to intuit power = attack | condi =/= attack but the game does a poor job explaining systems to people unfamiliar with video games already. The change last year when "power" was swapped to "strike" just further obfuscates matters.

People don't know what they don't know and it's up to developers to properly guide people to areas that will show them what's needed. Fights earlier in the game do (sort of) introduce some mechanics—assuming someone has done the story—but there's barely any tutorial in GW2 period (and certainly no UI explanation) so it's not surprising people get to the end of the current open world content and don't know what some things do. That's a failure of game design, not players "not using common sense".

[Ghostkat.9580]

2 hours ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

This is pretty inconsequential to the discussion. I was remarking on the negative, "I'm a better player" attitude I've been seeing surrounding DE. The "just git gud" mentality is a plague.

 

Those of us who have commanded the encounter have outright watched other players standing in AoEs like deer in headlights and not moving or following the obvious call-outs that Aurene gives, and then crying they don't know what to do because no one's explaining mechanics to them. There's a lot of shifting of personal accountability for obvious stuff and you have an NPC literally doing shot calls for you, but it's always playing the blame game against someone else.

I have not seen anyone say "I'm a better player than you" or "just git gud," regarding this fight. I HAVE seen people like you claiming that's what other people are saying so you can accuse them of elitism. It's not elitism to expect people to be observant and cooperate with basic mechanics. The same goes for when people grow obstinate because they decide they don't want to do some of the things the encounter expects them to do.

I have seen people outright refuse to help with CC or even prepare for it prior to the fight, and I have outright seen players sit on the airship and throw the fight instead of getting right back in and helping.

Nobody is saying "git gud," but they are saying you are accountable for pulling your weight in the fight and not expecting others to do the heavy lifting for you. When we have outright watched players wipe and then complain in squad chat that the fight should be tuned for the effort-averse, this is a problem.
 

2 hours ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

The average player is not standing stationary jamming 1 and ignoring everything on their screen. Are they optimizing builds? Probably not. Do they have all-ascended gear? I can see the answer being no.

 

I have watched people sitting auto-attacking. I have recorded my runs of the encounter to review with my guildmates, which is how I know they are only jamming the 1 key and sitting in telegraphed AoEs with more than enough time to move out of them like deer in headlights. These are observations, not put-downs.

This has nothing to do with ascended gear or optimized builds. The rhetoric of this being a raid-level encounter is extremely silly and getting out of hand. It is mechanically simpler than most normal-mode encounters in other MMOs that are even simpler than this one. I would even argue it's mechanically on-par with the Scruffy fight in LWS1, just with a time limit.

My clears have never been fully-optimized raid groups of people doing their rotations. We did, however, cooperate with one another and we didn't have people talking back to the commander or AFKing. Everyone just tried their best. I did this in groups with very poor boon comps that failed both wisps phases and we were able to clear, before the fight was nerfed. I also saw people grouping up to do meme runs to prove they could. Turns out all you need to beat this fight is doing the very simple set of mechanics properly, work cooperatively with others, listen to the commander and try to prepare during the pre-event.
 

2 hours ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

 

I do not consider myself anything special as a GW2 player. Lord knows I die too much in open world content. But assuming the majority of players are doing the bare minimum within the game is both elitist and demoralizing. And it doesn't address the real issue, which is "why is the end result per player so widely variable in this event?"

Because there are a lot of passive players who are outright voicing in no uncertain terms that this should be zerg content they can do without thinking, refusing to bring CC skills or damage because they insist on playing support in an encounter where that's not needed, and complaining that this is mechanically on a raid level when it isn't, so they can validate feeling overwhelmed on the internet. There are a lot of effort-averse people who play MMOs and feel entitled to rewards without having to work for them, and a lot of people don't remember how Tequatl or Triple Trouble were when they were new.

That's not elitism, you should stop misusing that word. When we have commanded squads and seen people argue, grief, get stubborn about not wanting to show up prepared and feel entitled to a clear just by being there, getting demanding that it is somehow the commander's responsibility to tell them the mechanics of a fight that has been out for a month because they refuse to put in initiative on their end to look up a guide and expect everyone to spoonfeed them the miracle solution on how to win or carry them through the content, those are real things that have happened to us and it's tiring.

We have watched Snebzor and Mighty Teapot go out of their way to try and help people and put up guides and get flamed for it, because people want to be angry and want to feel validated moreso than acknowledging that the fight is indeed beatable. People don't want to admit that there's a solution because they don't want a solution, they want to be mad. If these complaints about the fight's mechanics or difficulty were legitimate, people wouldn't be flaming them and instead they would see they're only trying to help. Snebzor got flack from people for trying to be positive and encourage people because he knew clearing was possible.

The truth is, the community, yourself included, are making this out to be something which requires meta-level raid play and it really, really doesn't. The rhetoric here has gotten out of control. It's a fairly basic fight, and it just needs people to do its mechanics. If meme runs can beat this encounter, there's no reason you can't. You just want to act like it's impossible for the community at large so you can make these talking points. Treating everyone who points out these observations as though they're being "elitist" is sideswiping the real issue, which is one of personal accountability, observation and effort. If you are truly giving the fight your all, and doing your best to pull your weight, you wouldn't be dismissing legitimate observations. ArenaNet wouldn't be taking measures to ban griefers and AFKers from this fight if it wasn't a legitimate phenomenon people are observing. Claiming that we're just being elitists who are demoralizing you is refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation and forcing accountability onto someone else. The game isn't the issue, but there are a lot of effort-averse people who have outright argued on the behalf of being effort-averse in youtube comment sections and in-game, so when we see that, observe it, record it and screenshot it, and you try to gaslight us by telling us that we're just being elitists, that's really heavy denial and shifting of accountability. If you're unable to clear, then maybe you should ask yourself what you can do differently. Take some initiative to look up the mechanics (it has been a month, there are guides), and take whatever measures you can to at least ensure you yourself are performing to the best of your ability. If you do that, and if everyone else did that, there should be no problem in clearing. Instead, we are seeing people who are pillars of the community who are attempting to positively encourage others to show them what can be done to help make this easier for them, being on the receiving end of hate, tantrums, and misuse of labels of the "-ist" and "-phobe" variety which has caused ACTUAL demoralization, and those of us who ARE actually in the category of people who would be legitimate victims of such terms are offended the GW2 community would resort to that. I myself am still in a lengthy recovery from an accident, for which I was once wheelchair-bound, and still have to walk with a cane. And I am outright appalled that the people who want to be fervently against the state of this fight would accuse Snebzor and MightyTeapot for being ableist. THAT is actually offensive, to misuse that term just to attack someone on the internet, because people are jealous that they cleared.

Conversely, the more you keep wanting to argue that this is a raid encounter which the casuals shouldn't be subjected to, and arguing that open-world content should be pajamafied for the average player, the more you delude yourself into believing this encounter is more involved than it really is, and the more you dismiss what a lot of us who have cleared have experienced when we compare what we have endured and observed with our clears versus our failures.

Honestly, I disagree that the turtle being locked behind this meta at the time was an excuse for nerfing it. It's not like the Raptor's canyon-jumping which is mandatory for being able to progress through the story of PoF and prevents your progression if you don't have it. It's a status thing for people who were able to prove they could work together and cooperate to overcome an encounter, hence why the mount is all about working together cooperatively. It's a fun thing most will get bored with after 5 minutes of playing around with, aside from showing off they have it as a status symbol, but it isn't needed and doesn't gate progression. Mounts are often rewards for content like this in other MMOs so I don't see the problem and I don't agree that this is an "expansion-defining feature" as Mukluk likes to say. In Final Fantasy XIV, if you want the Omega mount, you have to clear the Omega Savage Raid series, specifically the fourth and final boss of Alphascape on the Savage difficulty. Having it is a status symbol. No one feels entitled to have it just because they bought the Stormblood expansion and feel entitled to it. I personally believe it should be restored to how it was before, locked behind completion of the meta, as proof that whoever earned it honourably did so through being cooperative with others and giving it their all.

I'm not a raider, and in all of my clears, I'm pretty sure what I was doing wasn't on-par with raid performance. As I said previously, my runs weren't good boon comps at all. We failed both wisp phases. But we didn't argue, we gave it our best shot, and every time people took the fight seriously and gave it their best, I have been in a successful clear run. Every time someone made excuses they shouldn't have to try, argued with others in the squad, or tried to deflect personal accountability, that is when we have seen failures.

In short, the divide you are describing ultimately depends on which of those two kinds of people you happen to be talking to. Either you're talking to people who are active players who are eager to overcome a challenge to the best of their ability and make sure to do what they can to prepare for the encounter, win or lose, or you're talking to entitled, effort-averse people who are blowing this encounter's difficulty out of proportion so they can act as though victory isn't realistically attainable for the average player, not because that's legitimately the case, but it's because they want it to be that way so they don't have to be expected to pull their weight.

I've played enough MMOs and I've seen enough pajamafication of the content and how that's negatively impacted communities to know exactly where the mindset is coming from, and I've seen that be the death of promising games. No thank you. I'd rather raise the skill floor and expect more of people so that by the time they get through to final boss content, they inherently understand enough about the game's expectations to be able to apply everything they should have learned up to that point, than lower the skill ceiling and floor and dumb everything down because effort-averse players argue that open-world content should be tailored to the lowest-common denominator.

[Tachenon.5270]

55 minutes ago, Ghostkat.9580 said:

The fight is, first and foremost, a DPS check and a CC check.

Why do we need that in an event out in the open? Especially since its painfully obvious most (most) of us aren't interested in that. Especially since its the culmination of 10 years of storytelling. If anything, it should be a FUN check. So that when its over, people have had a great time and are happy! Saying things like, 'Woa, I was not expecting that! That was awesome! That thing where it seemed like all was lost, and then the Six Gods showed up and gave us those power-up chocolate eggplant smoothies? Woa! And the Cow Cavalry stampeding through the bubbles -- now THAT was Entertainment! Best event ever!'

But no. DPS and CC, check and checkmate, and we have people storming the forums with virtual pitchforks and torches. Which is kinda epic, too, I guess. Just not in a good way.

[Ghostkat.9580]

25 minutes ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Common sense only applies when you have a homogeneous group of people from the same area who were raised in the same way with the same values.
 

An MMO that encompasses the world, has 3 data centres (granted the Chinese one is cut off from NA and EU), and where players speak and read dozens of languages at varying degrees with various levels of overlap are not a homogeneous group and while it may be basic, actually spelling things out clearly and concisely is needed in video games for those who have a limited grasp of the language, especially if there's no localization that is easier to understand or the localization they can read easier was poorly translated.
 

People who have played multiple video games (especially MMOs) and who are fluent in English may be able to intuit power = attack | condi =/= attack but the game does a poor job explaining systems to people unfamiliar with video games already. The change last year when "power" was swapped to "strike" just further obfuscates matters.

People don't know what they don't know and it's up to developers to properly guide people to areas that will show them what's needed. Fights earlier in the game do (sort of) introduce some mechanics—assuming someone has done the story—but there's barely any tutorial in GW2 period (and certainly no UI explanation) so it's not surprising people get to the end of the current open world content and don't know what some things do. That's a failure of game design, not players "not using common sense".

Hard disagree. I'm not American, or even from the Western Hemisphere for that matter, and I think it's really offensive that you'd assume that if someone doesn't speak English as their native language, they'd have difficulty understanding the correlation between a stat called "condition damage" (which, if you mouse over it, outright says "increases condition damage") and the outgoing conditions. That's quite insulting to peoples' intelligence.

This is an issue of basic literacy. If you're typing on this forum in English and speaking on the behalf of people who don't speak English, you really ought to speak for yourself here. I have a Brazilian guy in my guild who speaks Brazilian Portuguese as his first language, and if you repeated this to him, he'd think you're treating him like an idiot. There are plenty of people who play this game who are from France and other places in Europe who I speak to daily on Discord who feel this line of thinking you're broadcasting is really offensive and it drives them up the wall.

You are trying to make a mental gymnastics argument to avoid issues of personal accountability. Yes, it is common sense to say that if a stat says "Condition Damage" and if you mouse over it, it explains that it "increases condition damage," that it does exactly what it says it does. The connection between the two is, by definition, an issue of common sense. How people are raised and what their social values are is irrelevant, but you're making that argument to avoid the point in the same fashion as Bill Clinton arguing the definition of the word "is,". It's a distraction.

If you don't know how to read or understand English, but are choosing to play the game in English, then it is up to you to take personal accountability and use a translator, which is exactly what English-speakers do if they play a game that is not natively available in a language they understand. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing the same. I have friends back home who don't speak a word of English, but they have enough sense that if they play a game in a language they don't understand (which some of them indeed do) and there are gear stats, it's on them to look up what those gear stats are and what they do, instead of blaming external factors. They can use translator apps like everyone else. They'd never in a million years blame the game.

Take it from those of us foreigners who are from halfway around the world... this is an incredibly offensive and borderline racist argument you're making, which is only to absolve effort-averse people from personal accountability. That makes it even worse. Much like the community's misuse of the term "ableist" just to attack MightyTeapot and Snebzor out of jealousy for having cleared when they were trying to help people, it's insulting to the very people you are trying to represent, and you should cease saying things like that immediately.

[Ghostkat.9580]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, common sense rarely helps you with complex math problems. Especially if you only see small parts of the equations and the key parts are hidden from view.

No one's expecting you to do any math or equations. If you are geared for doing condition damage and your build and choice of weapon doesn't actually do condition damage, that's just being oblivious. Unfortunately, this happens more often than anyone wants to admit.

My husband would tell a story of how he played Monster Hunter World, a game that is all about hunting specific monsters to craft weapons and gear with stats that would be advantageous against other monsters, due to each having their own element. The hunts support up to 4 players and the difficulty scales upward as more players join the hunt but doesn't scale back down if people leave, which screws over the other remaining players who now have an uphill battle to fight. The mechanics of what is weak to what is a very basic common-sense rock-paper-scissors style logic a child could understand. I forget the exact details so forgive me for misremembering specifics, but if I recall the story correctly, they were fighting something like a water monster and someone showed up to the hunt with a fire weapon and fire-element gear... which, as you might imagine, is inherently weak to water. So my husband would ask, "why are you using that?" and the response was "it's the only one I have,". To which my husband would ask, "okay but then why not go hunt one of the previous monsters to get the thing you need? You're basically just going to be tickling this thing and it'll be more work for everyone else here,". And the guy just shrugged and was like "I dunno," because he didn't feel like showing up prepared and didn't understand he was basically dead weight since if there are 3 deaths the entire hunt fails. 

Just as it's common sense to not try and enter a fight against a fire-breathing dragon covered in gasoline, you wouldn't want to show up to an encounter not wearing the stuff relevant to said encounter. If you are doing power damage and not condition damage with your build (which you can see by mousing over your skills and reading what they do), then you should be geared for power damage. If you are wearing the wrong stuff and the stats aren't doing anything for you... maybe you should change that. Berserker gear is super cheap to get on the trading post, and if you're in a guild, you can just outright buy ascended jewelry from one of the guild hall vendors. It's not like you have to go horribly out of your way to get the stuff. It's just stubbornness on the part of players because it's too much effort for them and they don't feel like it.

[Ghostkat.9580]

23 minutes ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Especially since its painfully obvious most (most) of us aren't interested in that. 

Do you have a firm statistic for that? Because the fight has been out for a month and more and more groups are clearing it regularly and getting their achievements. For all we know, you could be projecting your personal feelings, and/or be part of a very loud vocal minority seeking to reinforce and validate one another's feelings instead of... y'know... putting the excuses for why you shouldn't have to use effort and do mechanics aside and just... put in effort, do the mechanics and get the fight over with. Hundreds of thousands of people play this game, and yet we don't see those numbers swarming the forum or reddit about this. If we were to go by reddit upvotes as a metric, it seems the sentiments that this meta is one of the best things to happen to the game is far more popular than the negative sentiments, by a magnitude of several hundred to nearly a thousand. 

[jamesg.7128]

21 minutes ago, Ghostkat.9580 said:

Wall of text

 

Much of what you say is correct. HOWEVER, from what I have seen and experienced one of the largest contributing factors to failure is the fact that random elements play too great a role.

You could have the same group playing it twice in a row and one attempt beat it easily with several minutes remaining and one could fail with several % health left purely because of the sequences you get each time.

Anet have acknowledged this already by making changes to some of the random elements. 

I have been able to beat it once, just. I also think it is a good meta and I have no problem with the mechanics or difficulty.

What I do have a problem with is the excessive randomness that can make even the best, most organised group fail through no fault of their own.

[fsabe.6593]

2 hours ago, Ghostkat.9580 said:

If a 40-year-old mum who barely has time to game between a full-time job, physical therapy, a child and four cats to look after, while recovering from surgery, can do this, and if one of her guild members - a grandmother in her mid-60s with rheumatoid arthritis can do this - you have no excuse other than laziness or the desire to make a stink on the internet to feel self-validation for why you can't do this. It's not an issue with the game... it's an issue with you.

Perhaps you don't play the game very much and don't know how it plays out, but, in general terms, the open world content is played by a few dozen players at once, so it doesn't really depend on only one person. You might want to retract most of your post now that you know that.

Edited March 31, 2022 by fsabe.6593

[sewenewes.4176]

7 minutes ago, Ghostkat.9580 said:

Point is, there's no excuse for why you can't do this. You just don't want to, but feel entitled to victory and rewards regardless.

 

I personally don't know if the people commenting in this thread can do it nor do I care because it's not relevant to the discussion. Arguments should be considered based on their own merit and not on who is making them. You are dismissing other players' concerns and ideas by saying [X] does not effect you or the people you know the same way therefore those concerns and ideas are objectively wrong and the ones voicing them are some variation of bad. You do not use your personal experience to offer advice but merely to brag, thinking it gives more legitimacy to your point. It doesn't. It is of no concern to me that you are injured, middle aged, looking after a child, and have four cats stinking up your home because it has nothing to do with the event design and reward structure of Dragon's End.

[Taclism.2406]

This thread exemplifies the main reason I haven't even cared to try EoD content for the last 2 weeks beside strikes. I know I could beat this meta (again) or even lead it if I tried hard, especially since its been nerfed a lot. Didnt checked the "improved" rewards for the meta, but the huge possibility of failure and general toxicity it implies makes it not even worth attempting, its just frustration from opposite groups that don't wanna give one inch to the other.

I've had more fun in solo SAB (my first time doing this festival) in the last 36h that I had in the entirety of EoD story / metas
I know many will find that odd, but I love JPs, and the fact its a self inflicted challenge I can't "carry / get carried" through takes me away from all the complaints in /map

[Mahou.3924]

This thread also boils down to the usual two MMO factions (casuals and toxic casual + raiders and elitist git gudders) are like politicians: Walls of text and still manage to to talk past each other. Both factions are at this point unwilling to move away from their position, so we have it like the South Park episode with the memeing cat and the politicans talking simultanously past each other without any progress.

[Gorem.8104]

That's um, that is a long wall of text. Anyway, as more updates come out its getting easier, still needs bigger rewards to be worth doing a second time. You get 2 mastery points for doing it once which is now really the bigger thing. But that reward increase either was not implemented or not enough of an increase. The escorts themselves need a large boost. And remove the pre entirely. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Erise.5614]

Could someone explain to me what went so horribly wrong here as to warrant a fail? And what I should improve next time to guarantee the success?

It was an LFG group, 1h prep, asking for and distributing alac and quickness. 

https://youtu.be/BFRto8jhnlQ

Also, here's a screenshot of fairly usal DPS during burn phases on DE (a bit lower on other maps. Again, the map was fully stacked with a strong majority having all buffs)

https://i.imgur.com/qPNLVpF.png

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Matt H.6142]

This seems PUG impossible.  It’s been 6 attempts since release, all fails and I know I’m doing all I can.  It’s changing my play style, and I can’t say it’s enjoyable.  People are looking to point fingers.  I know at least 6 people will go down to the claw stomp every time though.  LFG is either dead or leading to full maps, so frustrating before it’s even started.  Targeting Soo Won is an ongoing challenge, especially as she circles the arena’s edge like a whirlpool.  There’s no boss HP bar in the event to help in that stage. Targeting whirlpools is very unrewarding and ineffective to the eye of the player, and wastes CC on something other than Soo Won.  It should probably be stated everyone needs a ranged weapon to keep DPS up. I’ve yet to see that rip in chat though. 
 

[Erise.5614]

8 hours ago, Ghostkat.9580 said:

1) People acting entitled to a clear simply because the game allows them into the area, without believing any basic preparation is necessary on their part.
2) People refusing to use CC skills because they expect other people to take care of it.
3) People not listening to the commander who is trying to help them, and talking back.
4) Conversely, bad commanders who don't know what they're doing.
5) AFKers. I keep seeing people hanging out on the airship after they die, not immediately rushing back into the fight.
6) Passive players who insist on playing "support" against a fight that's a DPS check because they have the fantasy of being "helpful" without actually having to output a whole lot of effort.
7) People who blame the game instead of being observant.
8 )  Griefers.
9) Expecting someone else to spoon-feed them all the fight's mechanics, even when there is ample time before the fight to mention if you're new and don't know what you're doing.
10) Internet tantrums.

First of all. If you'd stop interpreting intentions and just portraying your observations you'd already come across much less antagonistic. 

It's not like anyone is like "Oh, you're telling me to CC? Nu-uh! Screw you, I will not CC!" 

Most people genuinely don't notice it quickly and more than enough can not do everything expected (dodge AOEs, do a semblance of a rotation, listen to audio queues, etc.) and also read chat. It takes a lot of familiarity with everything to do with Guild Wars to do most of those on mental autopilot and do other things alongside it.

 

But much more importantly. Now what?

You blame the general player base for being bad. Let's say it's their own fault. And now?

I mean. I do agree with that general assessment. Most players do not play optimal builds or react optimally. But what should be the consequence of that realization?

That ANet should ignore those players? Push harder and harder content in their face until they leave? It's not a stretch to say they are a strong majority of players. Unless you spend hundreds of dollars a month on the game. And everyone like you doing the same. You're not gonna sustain the game.

So should ANet focus more on that core audience to keep the game financially afloat? Disregard the minority that engages with hardcore content? Also not cool.

What about a compromise in between these two extremes? A middle way? Where ANet focuses on bridging the gap between these two audiences, making it a fun and easy experience to get better. Actually designing the game in a way that leads them towards getting better without constant negative reinforcement. Or reducing the gap by turning some of the multiplicative modifiers into additive ones. Drastically changing the balance, sure. But reducing the maximum difference between players meaning even though there is still gonna be a big gap it could be closer to 3x-5x. Rather than 10x. Allowing more people to enjoy similar content and experiencing the intended amount of intensity. 

And just to clarify. When I mean good design that teaches players. I don't mean hand holding. I don't mean mobile game tutorial design. Dark Souls teaches players, mostly, excellently. The Witness teaches extremely complex puzzles without saying or displaying a single word. It just offers the tools for players to learn.

 

Because I do have to support that other player a few comments ago, mentioning how they dealt poor DPS without the addon. Before getting the addon I was dealing terrible DPS without realizing it. And I frequently help friends or players in my main guild when they ask me about it. Benchmarking them during open world or fractals and then figuring out what doesn't work. I'm not changing the community like this. But the mere fact that it requires a guild and a friend with an addon or installing an addon yourself is absurd. 

The numbers coming out of enemies do nothing. You don't know what good DPS is. And you're certainly not counting things together, averaging it out and getting a good overview that way. 

Seriously. Turn of your addons. Go to the fractal golem. Do your rotation. Remove one armor piece. Do your rotation again. And then tell me the DPS difference. It's absurd. There's no way you can do that. 

That's what I mean when I say the game doesn't teach. Talking about tool tips here is the equivalent to "but have you read the terms and conditions?"

No. Almost no new player has. Or rather, they are not understood. These things are only interesting in context and that context is missing. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Naxos.2503]

I'll agree to the argument that's a DPS and CC check when the fight is a fixed pattern or we can consistently hit her. During the fight, she can hit a CC phase completely randomly, or not, I've done a meta where she did 1 CC phase the whole fight and another where she went through 4.  It's not consistent. Similarly, she can go straight into rushing back and forth making it impossible to attack her. Tequatl also has invulnerability phases, but it's part of a fixed pattern. Players can learn how to react to it through playing the mechanic.

In order to have a CC check, you need to be able to CC, in order to have a DPS check, you need to be able to attack.

From what I understand, The only way people can beat her is through Overwhelming DPS, which is the usual Raiding way of killing the boss before it triggers mechanics in order to skip them, or to limit time spent on mechanics. There is a reason people refer to raids when they evoke that side of the meta.

But again : Raid bosses have Clear Patterns. Soo Won does not and may choose to stay invulnerable for a continuous 3 minutes which in some metas is enough to run the clock.

[Mungrul.9358]

The problems I have with the DE meta are:

 

It requires a whole map's worth of people acting in a coordinated fashion to complete... in an open-world map where a lot of players aren't even interested in participating in the meta.

 

It's a MASSIVE time investment for very little reward compared to something like Drizzlewood or Dragon's Stand.

 

You can play a blindingly good, perfect meta yourself, doing everything right, but it won't matter if enough of the group fail. And all that time you invested will be rewarded with precisely nothing.

 

And the biggest one, after doing it successfully once and getting the turtle egg, I have no desire to ever play that meta ever again.

[Ruisen.9471]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Could someone explain to me what went so horribly wrong here as to warrant a fail? And what I should improve next time to guarantee the success?

 

Also, here's a screenshot of fairly usal DPS during burn phases on DE (a bit lower on other maps. Again, the map was fully stacked with a strong majority having all buffs)

https://i.imgur.com/qPNLVpF.png

 

That is... really low, if that's during burn phase and not for the entire fight.  3k-5k DPS is during burn is less then what you can do from just autoattacking with quickness/might and 25% damage bonus from pre-event.    All of the successful runs I've been on have around a dozen people doing 10k DPS in burn.   You can etch out some extra DPS from the squad if people have zerker/vipers gear, since most of Soo-Won's abilities are designed to kill you if you don't dodge it, so HP isn't really a big problem (except for mob phase, but you don't lose DPS uptime on boss from mob phase anyway).

Although this does mean if they just add 3 mins to the timer, then the DPS check should no longer be an issue for most squads.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Ruisen.9471

[The Boz.2038]

7 hours ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Why do we need that in an event out in the open? Especially since its painfully obvious most (most) of us aren't interested in that. Especially since its the culmination of 10 years of storytelling. If anything, it should be a FUN check. So that when its over, people have had a great time and are happy! Saying things like, 'Woa, I was not expecting that! That was awesome! That thing where it seemed like all was lost, and then the Six Gods showed up and gave us those power-up chocolate eggplant smoothies? Woa! And the Cow Cavalry stampeding through the bubbles -- now THAT was Entertainment! Best event ever!'

But no. DPS and CC, check and checkmate, and we have people storming the forums with virtual pitchforks and torches. Which is kinda epic, too, I guess. Just not in a good way.

Story mode finale. You're describing the story mode finale. Go play that if you want super power chocolate eggplant smoothie buffs.

 

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, Ruisen.9471 said:

That is... really low, if that's during burn phase and not for the entire fight.  3k-5k DPS is during burn is less then what you can do from just autoattacking with quickness/might and 25% damage bonus from pre-event.    All of the successful runs I've been on have around a dozen people doing 10k DPS in burn.   You can etch out some extra DPS from the squad if people have zerker/vipers gear, since most of Soo-Won's abilities are designed to kill you if you don't dodge it, so HP isn't really a big problem (except for mob phase, but you don't lose DPS uptime on boss from mob phase anyway).

 

Although this does mean if they just add 3 mins to the timer, then the DPS check should no longer be an issue for most squads.

That's the problem though. I believe most people talking about repeated successful runs are using a specific method of getting into squads. Beyond just using LFG. Specific times, specific requirements, etc. Something to self select groups with other very experienced players.

Which means there's disproportionally few of them in more average pugs while there are more than usual people who are at low DPS.

And no. Auto attacks with poor gear, quickness, might, 25% damage bonus from pre-event can net you as low as 2k dps. Had a friend deal 1.2k. Asked them what's going on. Turns out they changed their build halfway to power support before taking a >1 year break while playing full condi and they never realized while swapping templates that this was the case. 

I'd agree with the gear swapping but it'd need a vendor or TP on the map for you to have any chance of convincing a relevant amount of people to do that. Leaving an organized map means you just won't get back and the last sliver of success chance is gone. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

33 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

What about a compromise in between these two extremes? A middle way? Where ANet focuses on bridging the gap

You said dungeons were too steep. 

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You said dungeons were too steep. 

I've explained that 3 times now my friend.

Dungeons as the game existed in 2012 were too steep. Yes.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

I've explained that 3 times now my friend.

Dungeons as the game existed in 2012 were too steep. Yes.

Yes, you explained it.
It is still a hilarious statement, and it very nicely puts into perspective the totality of your comments on this meta.