No successful online PvP game has healers that are also tanks

[Mell.4873]

On 4/2/2022 at 10:09 AM, Shiyo.3578 said:

• Overwatch: Mercy/Anna etc. Easily focused and killed. Low HP and squishy. Soloable by a DPS very, very quickly.
• League of Legends: Sona, Soraka, etc. Easily focused and killed. Low HP and squishy. Soloable by a DPS very, very quickly.
• World of Warcraft: Have cooldowns, but once they're gone they're easily killed.  Easily soloable by a DPS quickly, some even dying in an opener. 

It's time for GW2 to get with the times and remove minstrels/nomads/etc from the game while also nerfing boon spam and healing.

 

Alot of other people have made this point but its the classes and not the gear in PvP. This is especially true for core guardian which is top support currently. 

Honestly the meta at the highest level since EoD does not rely on supports any more unlike before. Most of the new classes add very punishing and bursty dps. 

[The Boz.2038]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:30 PM, FrownyClown.8402 said:

The game had no business adding concentration to it. That  and rev boon access was the real downfall of gw2 combat

Sir, this is the PvP subforum.

There are no concentration gear sets in PvP.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Sir, this is the PvP subforum.

There are no concentration gear sets in PvP.

This thread was created in WvW forum but got moved to spvp forum...  Confusion incoming 😄

[The Boz.2038]

Oh jesus overmoderated christ...

[Downstate.4697]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Sir, this is the PvP subforum.

There are no concentration gear sets in PvP.

Idk why this comment of mine is in the pvp subforums

[Morwath.9817]

The truth about WvWvW balance is, everyone deals too much damage. Otherwise, supports would use less "safe" amulets and nobody sane would even think about running 3 supports per party that hit like wet noodle with AoE cap around 5 targets... but in the end even with 3 Minstrels per party stuff is dying to cleave. Its consequence of dodge or die game mechanics.

[Sahne.6950]

11 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

The truth about WvWvW balance is, everyone deals too much damage. Otherwise, supports would use less "safe" amulets and nobody sane would even think about running 3 supports per party that hit like wet noodle with AoE cap around 5 targets... but in the end even with 3 Minstrels per party stuff is dying to cleave. Its consequence of dodge or die game mechanics.

WvW.... Amulets? I am internally confused :C

Are you really saying that there is to much damage? after the Februar patch? 3 Supports per party and still to much damage?!

What is going on in this post? :0

[Morwath.9817]

9 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

WvW.... Amulets? I am internally confused :C

Are you really saying that there is to much damage? after the Februar patch? 3 Supports per party and still to much damage?!

What is going on in this post? :0

 

Amulets as gear stat combinations.

Its pretty simple, WvWvW isn't just about not dying and staying alive to keep node contested, you build your groups both to survive and wipe enemies. If your enemies are still dying to your squad, EVEN if 3/5 people per party are running around in gear without damage stats it leads to conclusion that remaining 2/5 people do ENOUGH damage to secure kills and your "supports" don't need to run more risky gear combinations.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Morwath.9817

[Sahne.6950]

11 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Amulets as gear stat combinations.

Its pretty simple, WvWvW isn't just about not dying and staying alive to keep node contested, you build your groups both to survive and wipe enemies. If your enemies are still dying to your squad, EVEN if 3/5 people per party are running around in gear without damage stats it leads to conclusion that remaining 2/5 people do ENOUGH damage to secure kills and your "supports" don't need to run more risky gear combinations.

okey i can follow your thoughts now... and what would be your suggestion? Nerf the damage even more? Smallscale is already in a pretty sad state... when 2 cele users fight thats pretty much all the content that they are gonna get for the day... because it will take atleast 24 hours till someone dies... (TOOOOTALLY Overexagerated, but that should be obvious)

From my experience... damage is not to high.

lets think it thru... your idead. Nerf damage. -> They now bring 3 dps and 2 supports. And what would that achieve?

I am not saying a hard NO. I wanna know where your idea is heading.

[Morwath.9817]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

okey i can follow your thoughts now... and what would be your suggestion? Nerf the damage even more? Smallscale is already in a pretty sad state... when 2 cele users fight thats pretty much all the content that they are gonna get for the day... because it will take atleast 24 hours till someone dies... (TOOOOTALLY Overexagerated, but that should be obvious)

From my experience... damage is not to high.

lets think it thru... your idead. Nerf damage. -> They now bring 3 dps and 2 supports. And what would that achieve?

I am not saying a hard NO. I wanna know where your idea is heading.

 

I'd start from nerfing base damage, then buff its scalling, so going for more offensive gear would be bigger benefit. I'd as well rework Might to be +% buff rather than +XX value, so stacking defensive gear would have more consequences.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I'd start from nerfing base damage, then buff its scalling, so going for more offensive gear would be bigger benefit. I'd as well rework Might to be +% buff rather than +XX value, so stacking defensive gear would have more consequences.

interesting! i like it ❤️

But i think the Might rework would kill Celestialbuilds. Some people would be really upset:D

But does your idea really adress the problem? The powerbuilds will still hit as hard and the support builds will still be as supporty as before. Nothing really changed did it? you just killed Celestial.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Morwath.9817]

11 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

interesting! i like it ❤️

But i think the Might rework would kill Celestialbuilds. Some people would be really upset:D

But does your idea really adress the problem? The powerbuilds will still hit as hard and the support builds will still be as supporty as before. Nothing really changed did it? you just killed Celestial.

 

Celestial has offensive stats, so +% dmg modifers are still valid for it. 

It would mainly change that since base damage would be lower "tanky" geared players wouldn't add any real damage to spikes, even when feed 25 Might stacks and Fury, thus you would need more "dps" to kill stuff in squad. Meaning your squad deals more damage over all + it faces less tanky targets soaking damage. It should also lower incetive for people to run too tanky safe builds while roaming, because anyone could disengage from them.

Less supports also means less defensive boons, less cleansing etc. Unless played with offensive gear like Scrouge is often played obviously.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Morwath.9817

[Sahne.6950]

14 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Celestial has offensive stats, so +% dmg modifers are still valid for it. 

It would mainly change that since base damage would be lower "tanky" geared players wouldn't add any real damage to spikes, even when feed 25 Might stacks and Fury, thus you would need more "dps" to kill stuff in squad. Meaning your squad deals more damage over all + it faces less tanky targets soaking damage. It should also lower incetive for people to run too tanky safe builds while roaming, because anyone could disengage from them.

Less supports also means less defensive boons, less cleaning etc.

okay my thesis is: any dps in a zerg is is fullzerker anyways, and all the support specs dont really deal damage, not even with 25 might.  imo this would only force people to go Fullglass or bunker. Which is exactly what we are already seeing in Zergs... correct me if im wrong... i think there is only Berserker/Ministrel or go home:D  This change would essentially have no impact on Largescalefights, only on smallerscale builds like soulbeast or anything that take their accasional 1 or 2 pieces with toughness. They would have to go fullZerker now or loose damage. And it would be a nerf to Cele, which ultimately might not be a bad thing... altho i personally LOVE Cele because it allows me to run Ventarirenegade in roaming^^

 

The only good sideeffect i see here is that people in smallerscale would maybe stray away from Concentration to push out more damage. Having for example Divinerpieces would be more punishing then it is now. But the rest... meeeh dont really see how that changes anything really

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Morwath.9817]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

okay my thesis is: any dps in a zerg is is fullzerker anyways, and all the support specs dont really deal damage, not even with 25 might.  imo this would only force people to go Fullglass or bunker. Which is exactly what we are seeing in Zergs... correct me if im wrong... i think there is only Berserker/Ministrel or go home:D  This change would essentially have no impact on Largescalefights, only on smallerscale builds like soulbeast or anything that take their accasional 1 or 2 pieces with toughness. They would have to go fullZerker now or loose damage.

 

The only good sideeffect i see here is that people in smallerscale would maybe stray away from Concentration to push out more damage. Having for example Divinerpieces would be more punishing then it is now. But the rest... meeeh dont really see how that changes anything really

 

You got some Marauder builds, that are a bit more durable than Zerker, but yes. However, I don't think you realize how much damage can supports add to zerg on single AoE cast with stacked Might and Fury, because even if you just hit for 500-1000 damage, thats like 15-30k dmg on point per cast with 30 supports in 50 man squad. Thats main reason why I would nerf base damage + Might and buff scalling with offensive stats, so they have to get any offensive stats to go over 100 dmg per hit.

[Khalisto.5780]

On 4/3/2022 at 2:56 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

In plat/leg they are, in gold people prefer to let the support free-cast and then come to forums when nothing is dying.

But ppl in gold are also worse at dpsing so nothing dies anyways

[Khalisto.5780]

The most funny thing about this thread is the dude that apparently got banned and had to make a second acc to keep spreading nonsense in the forums rofl

[Kuma.1503]

4 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I'd start from nerfing base damage, then buff its scalling, so going for more offensive gear would be bigger benefit. I'd as well rework Might to be +% buff rather than +XX value, so stacking defensive gear would have more consequences.

With the exception of lifesteal and a few other on-hit mechanics, there is no base damage in this game. Damage is determined entirely by coefficients. That's why CCs deal 7 damage after the nerf patch. The Coefficient was nerfed to 0.001. 

 

 

[Morwath.9817]

10 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

With the exception of lifesteal and a few other on-hit mechanics, there is no base damage in this game. Damage is determined entirely by coefficients. That's why CCs deal 7 damage after the nerf patch. The Coefficient was nerfed to 0.001. 

 

 

Your base damage is 1000 power and 250 condition damage, no? 🙂

a) Thus, you can add floors where your damage gains better coefficent after getting above it;

or

b) Reduce base stats in WvWvW while making coefficients higher.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Morwath.9817

[Kuma.1503]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Your base damage is 1000 power and 250 condition damage, no? 🙂

In a round-about sense, yes. It would be more accurate to call these "base stats".

You could nerf the power and buff the value you gain per point of precision/ferocity. Which would make certain stat combinations weaker and others stronger. In theory at least. 

 

[The Boz.2038]

19 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I'd start from nerfing base damage, then buff its scalling, so going for more offensive gear would be bigger benefit. I'd as well rework Might to be +% buff rather than +XX value, so stacking defensive gear would have more consequences.

Condi has base damage (but no base Condi Damage stat, so eh). Power doesn't. Can't nerf what isn't there.

[Morwath.9817]

30 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Condi has base damage (but no base Condi Damage stat, so eh). Power doesn't. Can't nerf what isn't there.

 

You got 1000 power and 250 condition damage on naked character, or I'm wrong? 🙃

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

You got 1000 power and 250 condition damage on naked character, or I'm wrong? 🙃

100% wrong xD 250 condidamage? WHAT:D maybe on a profession that has traits that give condidamage. But if you are Naked and no traits you have 1000 power but no condidamage.

[disco.9302]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:09 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

• Overwatch: Mercy/Anna etc. Easily focused and killed. Low HP and squishy. Soloable by a DPS very, very quickly.
• League of Legends: Sona, Soraka, etc. Easily focused and killed. Low HP and squishy. Soloable by a DPS very, very quickly.
• World of Warcraft: Have cooldowns, but once they're gone they're easily killed.  Easily soloable by a DPS quickly, some even dying in an opener. 

It's time for GW2 to get with the times and remove minstrels/nomads/etc from the game while also nerfing boon spam and healing.

 

Don't play any of the games you've listed, couldn't care less about what characters they have. Pretty sure 2 of those aren't even MMOs so the implied comparison is irrelevant. 

 Devs are often addressing balance and quite frankly I don't think you have a sufficiently extensive understanding of all classes, builds and styles of play to randomly demand changes to healers who can sustain themselves.

Also, try to be more specific with examples, not just the stat set.

[Nymthalas.4019]

On 4/3/2022 at 7:14 PM, Curennos.9307 said:

An excellent example of this is Specter, who is much more limited and lacks the AoE spammy support ability most other support specs have in spades. They can use their stealth skill on an ally and heal for a good amount, but it does jack for them. There's really only the smaller bonuses they get for landing shroud skills that only benefit them and a tethered ally, plus wells with alac and whatnot. You can easily see the lot of complaints about how specter needs more AoE support in line with what other classes have floating around. This is probably also why you won't really see any support-focused specters in PvP - they can't AoE support spam and they're squishy!

 

So you critize supports being able to sustain some damage, but you say specter is ok when pvp pro teams are having 2 of them because there is not enough thief players to have 3 of them?

[Curennos.9307]

1 hour ago, Nymthalas.4019 said:

 

So you critize supports being able to sustain some damage, but you say specter is ok when pvp pro teams are having 2 of them because there is not enough thief players to have 3 of them?

If you read the last few sentences of my post, you'll notice I specifically call out support-focused specter builds. Are teams running specters with sage/avatar, a healing rune, transference sigil, and shadow arts?

 

IF they are I'd be very interested in seeing some videos, but if not your comment is irrelevant.