Untamed

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

5 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Whether something is core utility or not doesn't mean that only 1 subclass can make use of that core utility.

Maybe the spirit revamp does make druid better for spirits that doesn't mean that untamed can't make use of spirits.

Yes untamed has meh dps. Yes it has bad support. That doesn't mean that changes can't happen to dps and support. Anet is giving rangers access to boon support roles.

Also, for core pets I don't think looking at them with the lens of damage makes much sense considering all but iboga don't do that much dps. Personally I see pets as utility in regards to crowd control, maybe even a few boons.

I believe that it can be assumed that spirits will make untamed better. Will it make it meta? Who knows. Will untamed have a use? Yes, through boons, utility, crowd control, and damage (despite it being low).

While yes, you can make some kind of spirit build for untamed, my point is why would you ever want to? It's the equivalent of taking inspiration chrono in modern day. Sure, you have the utility, but that's all you have. You don't provide enough DPS to justify taking untamed with spirits, and part of that problem is pet damage. What utility can untamed provide that druid cannot? What unique ranger buff can untamed provide that even Soulbeast cannot? Saying 'but they can take spirits' is just trying to justify using this train wreck of a spec.

 

It's fine for open world, but that's about it. It's a side grade when every other spec has been an upgrade to some degree, except maybe spellbreaker (but at least spellbreaker is good in pvp).

[kharmin.7683]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:44 PM, Cytoplasma.8216 said:

Seriously? On fractals ? Raids ? Strike ? Or meybe on open world ? Lol. 

Just get in wing2man

Nobody plays unplayed in pve. 

Yes. Seriously.  I like how you clipped my post to support your point. 

I did say OWPvE. Yeah, I do see quite a few untamed in open world.  Just because it probably isn't your preferred game mode doesn't make it any less viable.

[Puck.3697]

I feel the major problem is untamed is being primarily developed to fill a PvP role. 

So even if changes happen I can't imagine it will benefit a PvE role that much tbh, very much like spellbreaker from PoF. 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Yes. Seriously.  I like how you clipped my post to support your point. 

I did say OWPvE. Yeah, I do see quite a few untamed in open world.  Just because it probably isn't your preferred game mode doesn't make it any less viable.

The problem with saying 'it works in open world so it's fine' is that many things can work in open world. A condi weapon power build can work in open world, because chances are you're not running full berserker if you're running a condi weapon in open world.

 

If it was viable in any actual PvE mode I don't think people would complain.

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, Phazon.3975 said:

I've been using Untamed for PvE mostly because it actually makes Longbow a fun and decent DPS range weapon thanks to the damage modifiers, perma-quickness , and how amazing Multishot is and while keeping the pet meatshield. However Untamed just feels like Core Ranger Deluxe; Core with more buttons/damage but not a subclass feel like Druid or Soulbeast. And since it relies on your pet, Ranger still suffers from pets being nothing but meatshields and how unbalanced pets are. We have the "on paper glass cannon" pets (new addition Pheonix) that get 2-shotted by champions that still do less damage than the much tankier Jacaranda, Bristleback, etc. And Jacaranda isn't even overpowered, it's just one of the few pets actually worth using. Just a handful of pets are decent.

 

Now that Untamed is the new pet spec for ranger, it's time for a pet overhaul. I'm not asking for Ranger pets to be as good as a Mechanist's Golem, but the average unbuffed ranger pet does about 500-700 dps and that's just laughable. Buff and balance them to where I can actually say "I use birds/moas/spiders because X" instead of "lol Jacaranda or bust".

 

 

Yeah that is how I use Untamed too, the cooldown reductions you can stack is crazy. Barrage can be spammed twice within 10 second if you are fast enough on the hot keys. 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

6 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

While yes, you can make some kind of spirit build for untamed, my point is why would you ever want to? It's the equivalent of taking inspiration chrono in modern day. Sure, you have the utility, but that's all you have. You don't provide enough DPS to justify taking untamed with spirits, and part of that problem is pet damage. What utility can untamed provide that druid cannot? What unique ranger buff can untamed provide that even Soulbeast cannot? Saying 'but they can take spirits' is just trying to justify using this train wreck of a spec.

 

It's fine for open world, but that's about it. It's a side grade when every other spec has been an upgrade to some degree, except maybe spellbreaker (but at least spellbreaker is good in pvp).

I think (and I could be wrong) we're looking at this in different perspectives. I believe your looking at the untamed situation as whether untamed is best-in-slot in regards to squad composition. I'm looking at it in the perspective of 'anything goes as long as it's good at a role', not necessarily the best but something functional in that role. For instance if someone ran the inspiration chronomancer build I wouldn't care, I'd accept that they can provide boons, crowd control and some healing.

 

That being said, to answer your question: "you can make some kind of spirit build for untamed, my point is why would you ever want to?"

I won't deny that untamed damage is low, because it is. Is it balanced to the point of useless damage? Probably not. But it could get a few damage increase adjustments.

I say that slotting in untamed is for fun. Untamed has access to a lot of boon removal, projectile denial and immob, as well as benefiting from the same utility of pets  as druid in the form of push, pull, immob, damage mitigation. It'll be able to spam out boons especially the soon to be quickness/alacrity with little to no boon duration. On top of all of this untamed can choose to slot in heal spirit and nature spirit, which could potentially give untamed access to unique boons and healing. These utilities/boons can be spammed because of fervant force. 

 

To answer this question: "What unique ranger buff can untamed provide that even Soulbeast cannot? Saying 'but they can take spirits' is just trying to justify using this train wreck of a spec."

Untamed probably can't give a unique buff comparable to moa stance, one wolf pack, or vulture stance. But that's fine not everything has to give something super unique.

And the only reason to ever take druid for  other than it's utility, boons and healing, are the spirits. People don't want to play tempest despite it being just as good as druid in the heal/boon support category because it doesn't give offensive buffs like what sun spirit and frost spirit provides. And to be fair in some cases the amount of crowd control druid has. Snow crows said this before the change to their site recently, but you can still find it here on meta battle:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Boon_Support_Healer

By the way I 100% agree that untamed is a trainwreck right now. Right now It could do with a damage buff to the conditional skills like wild swing and savage shock wave from 20% damage increase when you crowd control to 50% or something.

[anduriell.6280]

Untamed is set on stone at this point. You should have complained harder during the beta test, now I think is a bit late. 

Anet can do the numbers dance all they want, the specialization is mechanically flawed at it's core still  it will be garbage. 

Also the rework to spirits will make Druid redundant in raids, i guess somebody really hates the class at the company. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[BumboJumbo.1308]

16 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Untamed is set on stone at this point. You should have complained harder during the beta test, now I think is a bit late. 

Anet can do the numbers dance all they want, the specialization is mechanically flawed at it's core still  it will be garbage. 

Also the rework to spirits will make Druid redundant in raids, i guess somebody really hates the class at the company. 

I don't think your first and last point is necessarily true:

 

"Untamed is set on stone at this point. You should have complained harder during the beta test, now I think is a bit late."

Anet is revamping spirits that allows untamed to have a damage/boon support role in 2 months. The last sentence makes it seem like untamed is worthless until a year/s when it gets a total rework.

 

"Also the rework to spirits will make Druid redundant in raids, i guess somebody really hates the class at the company."

Changing spirits won't make druid useless. Druid has good utility for mechanics in the form of push, pull and immob. It also has good healing, and might, fury, regen, swiftness generation. And to top it off it has a lot of crowd control.

 

Could you elaborate on this:

"Anet can do the numbers dance all they want, the specialization is mechanically flawed at it's core still  it will be garbage."

What about its mechanic is flawed?

[Mell.4873]

19 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Untamed is set on stone at this point. You should have complained harder during the beta test, now I think is a bit late. 

Anet can do the numbers dance all they want, the specialization is mechanically flawed at it's core still  it will be garbage. 

Also the rework to spirits will make Druid redundant in raids, i guess somebody really hates the class at the company. 

I mean that is not entirely correct since its fine in PvP, about where Soulbeast is at. I mean the numbers dance is what the PvE Untamed needs at the moment.

Spirits if they pulse quickness will make a healer druid equil or if not better than HB, outside of the other boon HB proivde

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mell.4873

[enkeny.6937]

On 4/10/2022 at 6:44 PM, Cytoplasma.8216 said:

Seriously? On fractals ? Raids ? Strike ? Or meybe on open world ? Lol. 

Just get in wing2man

Nobody plays unplayed in pve. 

in fractal and raid too.
mostly because my 'very good' teammates. 
I played druids for years, so now, when we have ham and hfb, but of course no one kite Sabetha, kiting with untamed is actualy better than sb or druid. (ok, I can't say any other boss 😐 )
in fractal you can use your projectile destroy and boon strip pretty well. Of course depend your party.
last time I used untamed in nightmare cm, because our hfb was so good, that I got no heal, no stability, no aegis so I was constatly dodging or interrupted with soul beast. after some wipe, I switched untamed. Well I survived, alone, and just gg after, because MAMA had too much health left. So I switched to druid, next to a so called hfb and what a surprise, if the others survived, we could make the kill....
but yes, usually there is a better professon for the job you do with untamed...

[enkeny.6937]

My guild mate said: catalyst got a bigger update, so next time untamed can get too!
I laughed in his face. I think maybe the big summer balance patch may do some update. Spirit may be helping, but I don't have high expectation. 
If we get the 'X spirit now pulse 1s quickness in every 3 sec' that means no 100% uptime RIP druid and no hope for untamed.
secound option: activating a spirit will give 2s quickness. With boon duration 100% is 4 sec, with 5 spirit is 20 sec, spirit has 20 sec cd, so it is permanent uptime right? No, elite has 40 sec cd, with alacrity it is ok. Or Fervent Force can help. Well we need cc, so has 1 from storm spirit, pet doesn't count, hammer need a precise timing if it is works, so we has usually 4-5 cc per weapon sets. so 3 cc about every 20 sec. it will be enough. (well, with quick draw at least.)

[kharmin.7683]

On 4/11/2022 at 2:40 PM, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The problem with saying 'it works in open world so it's fine' is that many things can work in open world. A condi weapon power build can work in open world, because chances are you're not running full berserker if you're running a condi weapon in open world.

 

If it was viable in any actual PvE mode I don't think people would complain.

But it is viable in PvE. 

I was really arguing against the point that was made that untamed is not played anywhere when, from my experience, that simply isn't true.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

28 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

But it is viable in PvE. 

I was really arguing against the point that was made that untamed is not played anywhere when, from my experience, that simply isn't true.

I have yet to see a single untamed in even strikes, eod or ibs. Untamed isn't worth taking, it's not viable.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

I have yet to see a single untamed in even strikes, eod or ibs. Untamed isn't worth taking, it's not viable.

Well, your time and region might show different than mine I suppose. 

Still doesn't make it not viable.  Also doesn't support the argument that untamed is not played anywhere.

[Abyssisis.3971]

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Well, your time and region might show different than mine I suppose. 

Still doesn't make it not viable.  Also doesn't support the argument that untamed is not played anywhere.

What makes it unviable is not that it isn’t played, it’s that it is overshadowed by other specs performing the same role easier, more efficiently and without the drawbacks. 

[Mell.4873]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:09 AM, Abyssisis.3971 said:

What makes it unviable is not that it isn’t played, it’s that it is overshadowed by other specs performing the same role easier, more efficiently and without the drawbacks. 

This will always be a problem as new elites keep getting added to the game. Honestly we should start treating elite specs as another flavour of an existing class mechanic. I mean specters entire mechanic is a healing shroud. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:03 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Well, your time and region might show different than mine I suppose. 

Still doesn't make it not viable.  Also doesn't support the argument that untamed is not played anywhere.

 

Basically.  Untamed isn't viable in PvE as all PvE cares about is the 'trinity' that they so wanted to avoid before.  Soulbeast is the DPS of that trinity and so no reason to play any other spec.

Competitive a lot more fluid though.  Even if not seeing a lot of them it may just be due to path of least resistance.  Like in WvW you only see Sic' Em snipers and boonbeasts--but run across a good druid or core and you're screwed.  Other specs might be rare, but that's because it takes higher skill ceiling to use them.  

[NuggetScout.3782]

On 4/10/2022 at 6:44 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

In what format?  I main ranger (and have for years) and am enjoying this spec quite a lot in OWPvE.  I've seen a number of other untamed specs running around, too.

I don't disagree, but I was against the whole bunny thumper concept from before it was announced.  I don't even use hammer on my untamed and I have not really had any issues completing content in OWPvE.  /shrug

Ive played ranger since release, this spec litterally feels like they put the worst of soul beast and druid together, because the devs that approved this bong water were UNTAMED

[Mell.4873]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:42 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Basically.  Untamed isn't viable in PvE as all PvE cares about is the 'trinity' that they so wanted to avoid before.  Soulbeast is the DPS of that trinity and so no reason to play any other spec.

Competitive a lot more fluid though.  Even if not seeing a lot of them it may just be due to path of least resistance.  Like in WvW you only see Sic' Em snipers and boonbeasts--but run across a good druid or core and you're screwed.  Other specs might be rare, but that's because it takes higher skill ceiling to use them.  

Yeah exactly which is why they should buff Untamed DPS to be greater than Soulbeast. Leave Soulbeast as a burst spec that has 0 sustain with the potential as boon support with stances.

Untamed should be preferred Dps

Soulbeast can be either a support or dps

Druid should be a support and healer. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mell.4873

[kharmin.7683]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:47 PM, NuggetScout.3782 said:

Ive played ranger since release, this spec litterally feels like they put the worst of soul beast and druid together, because the devs that approved this bong water were UNTAMED

In what format?  Are you trying to play it as advertised, with the hammer, or have you tried to broaden your horizons and use different weapon sets?  Of course, everyone's mileage will vary, but I've had good success in OWPvE with Sw/D and LB on my untamed and it doesn't feel as bad to me as you make it out to be.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

In what format?  Are you trying to play it as advertised, with the hammer, or have you tried to broaden your horizons and use different weapon sets?  Of course, everyone's mileage will vary, but I've had good success in OWPvE with Sw/D and LB on my untamed and it doesn't feel as bad to me as you make it out to be.

Again, open world is open world. You can succeed with condi druid in open world. You can succeed with any of the cores in open world.

 

Something being good in open world does not mean it's good in areas where it needs to be good.

[Puck.3697]

13 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Again, open world is open world. You can succeed with condi druid in open world. You can succeed with any of the cores in open world.

 

Something being good in open world does not mean it's good in areas where it needs to be good.

Depends on the content discussed. 

If story wise yeah, agreed its very irrelevant to balance metrics. 

However if we are talking soloing HoT HPs, champion monsters, bounties and things of this caliber I'd argue its very relevant to balance. 

You would not succeed on anything or core specs against that level of solo play realistically. 

[Nephalem.8921]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:58 AM, enkeny.6937 said:

in fractal and raid too.
mostly because my 'very good' teammates. 
I played druids for years, so now, when we have ham and hfb, but of course no one kite Sabetha, kiting with untamed is actualy better than sb or druid. (ok, I can't say any other boss 😐 )
in fractal you can use your projectile destroy and boon strip pretty well. Of course depend your party.
last time I used untamed in nightmare cm, because our hfb was so good, that I got no heal, no stability, no aegis so I was constatly dodging or interrupted with soul beast. after some wipe, I switched untamed. Well I survived, alone, and just gg after, because MAMA had too much health left. So I switched to druid, next to a so called hfb and what a surprise, if the others survived, we could make the kill....
but yes, usually there is a better professon for the job you do with untamed...

Thats a player skill issue. You can do that boss without heal and the only attack you have to block or dodge is the first. "I was the last one to survive" is a useless argument without knowing your contribution.

Untamed dps is not that useless. 33k dps so basically vindicator dps on small hitbox. The entire class identity is the cdr trait on cc. Thats the issue. Pets are useless. Not sure why the ranger pets are so weak. Its a spec supposed to focus on pets yet it does nothing to improve them. pets need boons and way higher dps.

untamed and mechanist are both fairly equal in dps on their own. mechanist pet does 11k dps though while the ranger pet does 2k. The highest dps pet does 5k with all boons and 100% sic'em uptime.

Untamed on its own is ok. not great not super terrible. the pet is useless. first of all it needs to share boons without having to invest into nature magic. 2nd it needs to have its dps doubled. They are still in 2012 design wise. problem is that even in 2012 they were useless and ranger struggled in pve because of them. Boonshare worked in the core game because you could spend only 10 points in nature magic. It doesnt work at all anymore. 

[Kaenaydar.5631]

On 4/23/2022 at 7:28 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Thats a player skill issue. You can do that boss without heal and the only attack you have to block or dodge is the first. "I was the last one to survive" is a useless argument without knowing your contribution.

Untamed dps is not that useless. 33k dps so basically vindicator dps on small hitbox. The entire class identity is the cdr trait on cc. Thats the issue. Pets are useless. Not sure why the ranger pets are so weak. Its a spec supposed to focus on pets yet it does nothing to improve them. pets need boons and way higher dps.

untamed and mechanist are both fairly equal in dps on their own. mechanist pet does 11k dps though while the ranger pet does 2k. The highest dps pet does 5k with all boons and 100% sic'em uptime.

Untamed on its own is ok. not great not super terrible. the pet is useless. first of all it needs to share boons without having to invest into nature magic. 2nd it needs to have its dps doubled. They are still in 2012 design wise. problem is that even in 2012 they were useless and ranger struggled in pve because of them. Boonshare worked in the core game because you could spend only 10 points in nature magic. It doesnt work at all anymore. 

I took mine raiding last night and im forced to agree as far as a defiance bar breaker it did well. However both pet and ranger needs more dps. I mostly used it as intended with the hammer really helped guild with breaking the bar but it needs more to be allowed in end game content. Been maining Untamed since it came out because never was a Soul Beast fan. So i truly hope my class will get more attention.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Kaenaydar.5631

[Dadnir.5038]

On 4/23/2022 at 1:28 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Not sure why the ranger pets are so weak.

sPvP. That's the answer. People in this gamemode hate losing to AI and thus AI are nerfed to the ground to soothe their rage.

You could argue that with the balance split pets could be stronger in PvE but the devs never glanced at the pets in this light since they accepted the possibility of splitting balance.

That said, it might be better to have the pets as utility provider and keep the bulk of the damage onto the ranger itself. Now, the question is whether or not the utilities the pet provide are worth something or not (Most vanilla pets with their long CD and long cast time might not be worth anything, atm)