Powercreep of shiro herald

[myun.6395]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I'm gonna put a big citation needed on this. 

I'm perfectly willing to change my mind on this, but the only thing you've really done is assert things with nothing to back it up other than meaningless buzzwords like "powercreep", which, truth be told, gets used very liberally on these forums. 

It was played in the AT. Cool, what did it do. Which specific situations were the willbenders able to thrive in that the Heralds could not? Which matchups does it do better into and why? How do we know there weren't skill discrepancies between the two teams where Herald and Willbender are played? I'm going to be honest, games are not known to be evenly matched in AT's. 

I have a lot of questions and this post answeres none of them. Appeals to authority are meaningless unless you offer supplemental information and allow people to come to their own conclusions. Blindly believing what someone else tells you, regardless of how knowledable you believe they are is a generally bad practice. 

You obviously know something that I don't right now, so why not share? I'm interested in learning more about this matchup. 

 

 

 

If you play it yourself, and look at the traits and skills you will know why it's a powercreep.

 

I will repeat with a more detailed list.

 

1. Better cleanse (herald weak to condis)

2. Better damage burst and sustained. (Skills are on way lower cd, so the burst is more consistent and more sustained.

3. Sword5 immob is 3 seconds and on herald sword4 was nerfed to 1 seconds plus made the animation super slow and easy to avoid. Sword5 is a better deathstrike as well.

4. If used correctly the heal skills is almost as good as infuse light which was nerfed in duration and so won't give you full heal anymore unless you are against noob, physical willy skill can negate big hits faster and better.

5. Better team fight support especially with a core guard as well you spam off cooldown F3 on a 25 seconds cd, free stab for teammates, f2 cleanse. F1 big damage burst for your team as well.

Every time i get downed, the top skill is always burning even tho the enemy willbender is the meta marauder power build. Just to remind how broken burning is.

6. Better mobility, after the nerfs to phase traversal, sword2 of guardian does kinda the same and better.

7. Better 1vs1 potential and not forced to be a pure roamer team fighter and +1 class.

8. Insane cleave pressure due to high damage.

9. Very good blind access.

10. Resetting invuln elite.

 

I think i covered almost everything, herald has few unblockables and boonstrip which doesn't justify it's use anymore over willbender.

 

Mobility is king in pvp and when you buff it that much you dont need evades or blocks to survive like herald has.

 

So why would you play herald? Only if you don't like guardian.

Every main herald i know ingame switched to willbender.

 

Monthly AT proved how strong it is in a high end competitive environment.

Just play it in ranked and you reach even plat2 in no time and you see how strong it is in ranked as well.

 

I'm not here to generate flame or asks for nerfs, just curious what's on the mind of the devs who spent years nerfing an existing class because how oppressive it was, and yet they release a direct powercreep to it.

 

Simple, they don't play pvp and wanted push the sell of EoD making people buy it.

Right now almost every EoD spec is superior to the previous specs. Guardian has exception that has 2 meta builds and another viable one (trap dh).

 

Dunno what else to say to be honest.

[Kuya.6495]

Sword5 is 2 seconds, not 3. And how is sword 2 better than phase traversal?

[myun.6395]

1 hour ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Sword5 is 2 seconds, not 3. And how is sword 2 better than phase traversal?

It is, wonder why sword is used by support guards as well.

Yeah mistyped 3 instead of 2, still... what's change?

Keep defending your main class, as usual players mains are so bias and delusional.

Nothing more to say.

[Kuya.6495]

56 minutes ago, myun.6395 said:

It is, wonder why sword is used by support guards as well.

Yeah mistyped 3 instead of 2, still... what's change?

Keep defending your main class, as usual players mains are so bias and delusional.

Nothing more to say.

Ok so sword 2 better than phase traversal because core guardians use it.  Got it.

 

Imagine thinking that a 600 range port with fury/blind is better than a 1200 port with quickness/unblockable.

 

Anyway. Meta is full of condi and power willbender handles condis better than herald rev can. That's why it's better right now. 

[Lighter.5631]

whats funny is that resolution gives 10% damage, 40% crit chance, reduce 33% condi damage and gives might on interval

lol.

i'm sure it's fine on core guard, but with my experience playing power core guard and willbender..

 

willbender is just a overall way better core power guard...like i don't see the trade off here justified at all..

giving like 1 aegis, 1 heal and 1 burn for all these dodges and teleports and mobility and aoe damage?..idk

at least, DH is different with long bow, but willbender is just a core power guard on steroids

Edited April 25, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Kuma.1503]

Sweet! Now we can have a discussion.

I'm going to go over what you said while attempting to compare the two objectively. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

1. Better cleanse (herald weak to condis)

True.

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

2. Better damage burst and sustained. (Skills are on way lower cd, so the burst is more consistent and more sustained.

This point is debatable. Herald Sword skills are equal or shorter cooldown than Guardian sword skills across the board, but Willbender can afford to run 2 aggressive weapon sets (Sw/Sw and GS) while Herald has to run Staff for the utility it provides. 

Staff autos with Impossible odds deal good damage, but claiming this compete with GS Guard is... generous. 

To Herald's credit, it has access to 2 utility bars worth of skills. Including: Burst of Strength, Elemental Blast, True Nature (shiro), Phase Traversal (same damage coefficient as Guardian sword 5), and Enchanted Daggers.

 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

3. Sword5 immob is 3 seconds and on herald sword4 was nerfed to 1 seconds plus made the animation super slow and easy to avoid. Sword5 is a better deathstrike as well.

Sword 5 immob is 2 seconds in PvP. 

Rev Sword 4 has a much bigger cleave range, has a disjointed hitbox (hitbox not attached to their model. Useful for spacing out your opponent or poking), 5 seconds less cooldown, inflicts 12 vuln in one go. (12% damage amp on the target)

To Guardian's credit their Sword 5 also inflicts 3 seconds of slow. So if your cleanse has a cast time, it's going to be harder for you to get it off to remove the immob. 

Overall this is an apples and Oranges comparison where both skills have their pros and cons. 

I should also note here that Deathstrike has a higher power coefficient than Advancing Strike with 100 more range. 

Advancing Strike: 500 range. 1.0 coefficient.  Death Strike: 600 range, 1.8 coefficient (both strikes). 

 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

4. If used correctly the heal skills is almost as good as infuse light which was nerfed in duration and so won't give you full heal anymore unless you are against noob, physical willy skill can negate big hits faster and better.

The counterplay to both heals is the same, but to Willbender's credit, they don't need you to burst into it to gain full value. One stray hit will suffice. 

Infuse light has a few advantages going for it.

It takes advantage of the AoE vommit that goes on in teamfights, and it takes advantage of conditions. You can't prevent the herald from healing once you've put condis on him. If you're a guardian, your symbols (which deal good cleave damage) are a guaranteed heal for the rev 

Heal Facet also grants perma 5 target regeneration, which seems insignificant in the moment, but adds up very quickly over the course of a fight.

Asuming you grant it to 3 allies in a teamfight, that's 130 x 3 = 390 healing per second for 4 seconds. This adds up to 1560 healing over the course of 4 seconds for a single pulse of heal facet. Regeneration effects are some of the most underappreciated sources of sustain in the game. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

5. Better team fight support especially with a core guard as well you spam off cooldown F3 on a 25 seconds cd, free stab for teammates, f2 cleanse. F1 big damage burst for your team as well.

Neither build has amazing support. Willbender is a selfish dps spec no matter how you slice it, but the virtue share on f2 and f3 are nice.

How does a Willbender go about sharing their F1 to their team? I was not aware this was a feature. I'm not seeing anything in their kit that would allow that. 

Herald provides permenant or high uptime on regen, fury, and swiftness to their team. They will also pulse out might on occasion and about ~ 6 seconds of prot thanks to draconic echo. 

 The swiftness and fury don't seem relevant, but there are more than a few builds that struggle to apply these. Perfect example being Reaper who appreciates both.

Heralds can technically cleanse their teamates with Staff 4. It's not a huge point in their favor, but it's worth mentioning. There are situations where this comes in handy. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

Every time i get downed, the top skill is always burning even tho the enemy willbender is the meta marauder power build. Just to remind how broken burning is.

Downstate recap is funky. I wouldn't rely on it for reporting condi damage for various reasons. 

Shout out to eles one shotting themselves with vapor form btw. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

6. Better mobility, after the nerfs to phase traversal, sword2 of guardian does kinda the same and better.

Willbender ports are shorter distance, but they have more of them. However some, such as F2 and F3 have long cooldowns and are too valuable to waste purely for mobility. 

 Herald has access to both Impossible Odds (50% movespeed) and Rising Momentum (5% movespeed per upkeep). Unless you have superspeed, Herald moves faster than you by default. This is a big contributor to their slipperiness in spite of the fact that their mobility is conditional. 

This is one point where each has its pros and cons. 

I've heard enough complaints about scrapper's superspeed to know that raw movement speed is valuable.

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

7. Better 1vs1 potential and not forced to be a pure roamer team fighter and +1 class.

It definitely has a better matchup against condi, and that's relevant in this meta. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

8. Insane cleave pressure due to high damage.

Herald has this too.

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

9. Very good blind access.

Fair point. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

10. Resetting invuln elite.

Also Fair. Both Glint and Shiro elites have huge telegraphs and are situational at best. 

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

So why would you play herald?

Quick recap on why to pick Herald:

• If your team values the boons it provides.
• Pseudo-Superspeed
• High sustain (Regen op)
• Unblockables
• Self-Quickness uptime
• Access to mid-range pokes (Sword 2, 3, Elemental Blast)
• Boon rip
• 2 utility bars

6 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

Dunno what else to say to be honest.

Willbender is a good build. Even if there were some inaccuracies with what you said, the biggest things I'd say Willbender has going for it are the better condi matchup and the greater number of ports. 

Is it a better herald? That much is still debatable, but with the influx of condi builds after EoD, Willbender is probably better suited to the meta right now. 

 

[Buran.3796]

   Love how Vindicator isn't even in the conversation; so bad it is.

   I agree with WB being better, but don't with the moanings. Let the Rev root for a while.

[myun.6395]

8 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

How does a Willbender go about sharing their F1 to their team? I was not aware this was a feature. I'm not seeing anything in their kit that would allow that. 

That was my mistake, it is actually core guard that shares it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Justice

So having both specs in the same team it's devastating considering that willbender F1 causes burn on the next consecutive attacks, also on 25 might stacks, and considering how broken burning is, you see why I always get burning as the top damage skill who killed me, even in pure 1vs1s around the map.

 

Also you say pick herald for boon share like regeneration.

Willbender can too, on a 1200 range...

Read this trait:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspired_Virtue

And I wouldn't call F2 and F3 "long cooldowns" like you said:

8 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

However some, such as F2 and F3 have long cooldowns and are too valuable to waste purely for mobility.

 

[Spellhunter.9675]

Where tradeoff anet?

https://imgur.com/hgzRJEX

Edited April 26, 2022 by Spellhunter.9675

[Stallic.2397]

Can someone post this build?

[Ragnar.4257]

9 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Love how Vindicator isn't even in the conversation; so bad it is.

   I agree with WB being better, but don't with the moanings. Let the Rev root for a while.

Because vindicator isn't a +1, it's a duelist/bunker with some TF capability. It's more similar to  scourge (pre-nerf) or scrapper than to shiro/herald. Tree Song cleansing 5 conditions from allies on a 3s CD clearly isn't intended as a +1 DPS.

You shouldn't be directly comparing shiro/herald to vindicator, they're for different roles.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[myun.6395]

37 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Because vindicator isn't a +1, it's a duelist/bunker with some TF capability. It's more similar to  scourge (pre-nerf) or scrapper than to shiro/herald. Tree Song cleansing 5 conditions from allies on a 3s CD clearly isn't intended as a +1 DPS.

You shouldn't be directly comparing shiro/herald to vindicator, they're for different roles.

Some people like benzo run vindi with devastation and dmg dodge trait to have the same role of shiro herald, but after the nerfs it is kinda an off meta build, and off course willbender is simply better at it.

 

Vindi as sidenoder bunker dueslist on the other hand is seen by many as a better mechanist, because can bunker quite well, but also have kill potential, which mech usually doesn't.

 

But yeah my post is how willbender is a direct powercreep to shiro herald, considering all the hate I got from expert player maybe I am wrong, willbender is very weak and needs buff maybe right?

Keep playing it till it last it's all I can say, just shared my opinion about it, agree or not, simple as that. I provided good points and I also didnt ask any nerfs, just pointed it out 

 

[Ragnar.4257]

Just now, myun.6395 said:

Some people like benzo run vindi with devastation and dmg dodge trait to have the same role of shiro herald, but after the nerfs it is kinda an off meta build, and off course willbender is simply better at it.

 

Vindi as sidenoder bunker dueslist on the other hand is seen by many as a better mechanist, because can bunker quite well, but also have kill potential, which mech usually doesn't.

 

But yeah my post is how willbender is a direct powercreep to shiro herald, considering all the hate I got from expert player maybe I am wrong, willbender is very weak and needs buff maybe right?

Keep playing it till it last it's all I can say, just shared my opinion about it, agree or not, simple as that. I provided good points and I also didnt ask any nerfs, just pointed it out 

 

You know it's actually possible for something to be somewhere in between "weak" and "godmode" ?

It's not only one or the other.

WB, Untamed and Harbinger finally able to puncture through the bunker meta, and people immediately want them nerfed. Think through the consequences here.

[Buran.3796]

9 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You shouldn't be directly comparing shiro/herald to vindicator, they're for different roles.

   I don't, but in terms of roles GW2's PvP is a 0 sum game: if a build is arguably better there's no reason to chose the alterantives. That's why some builds are stacked in tournaments, where some clases has been out of the menu for years. And now is the time for the Rev to say good bye.

[myun.6395]

9 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You know it's actually possible for something to be somewhere in between "weak" and "godmode" ?

It's not only one or the other.

WB, Untamed and Harbinger finally able to puncture through the bunker meta, and people immediately want them nerfed. Think through the consequences here.

I dont have muxh problems against harbis or untamed, harbis are easy to take down and against untamed 1 stunbreak 1 dodge and you deny the teleport oneshot burst completely.

 

On willbender you gotta dodge the f1, dodge sword 5, dodge sword4 dodge gw2 dodge whirling light, and you can't kite because they are constantly glued to your butt pumping damage, if you go offensive they pop f3 off cooldown 2 evades on f2 plus a negate all damage heal and repeat their burst.

 

It's too oppressive spec, at least herald dies to condis and to CC, willbender doesn't.

 

Unless your team has a willbender it can even run away from 3 people.

[Kanto.2485]

I would rather see an herald in my team comp than a WB, and i'd rather see a WB in the enemy team than an herald, which i belive says a lot.

 

Seriously, the versatility and evade/block/dmg convert uptime on rev is something guards in general can only dream of.

 

WB has higher damage, but clunky and telegraphed, and it has more cleanses because you are stuck eating up dmg most of the time since you don't have nearly as much block/evade uptime. Rev has sword 3, staff 3, staff 5 and infuse light to rotate between, guard has 2 seconds of invuln on 105 sec cd and that's it if you don't want to count aegis on f3, which is worse than on core guard since it now has a cast time..

 

I wish i mained rev in PvP and not this garbage over which i still play core guard.

[felix.2386]

3 hours ago, Kanto.2485 said:

I would rather see an herald in my team comp than a WB, and i'd rather see a WB in the enemy team than an herald, which i belive says a lot.

 

Seriously, the versatility and evade/block/dmg convert uptime on rev is something guards in general can only dream of.

 

WB has higher damage, but clunky and telegraphed, and it has more cleanses because you are stuck eating up dmg most of the time since you don't have nearly as much block/evade uptime. Rev has sword 3, staff 3, staff 5 and infuse light to rotate between, guard has 2 seconds of invuln on 105 sec cd and that's it if you don't want to count aegis on f3, which is worse than on core guard since it now has a cast time..

 

I wish i mained rev in PvP and not this garbage over which i still play core guard.

you may start seeing things clearer when you finally start having skill and get out of gold tier

[myun.6395]

8 hours ago, Kanto.2485 said:

I would rather see an herald in my team comp than a WB, and i'd rather see a WB in the enemy team than an herald, which i belive says a lot.

 

Seriously, the versatility and evade/block/dmg convert uptime on rev is something guards in general can only dream of.

 

WB has higher damage, but clunky and telegraphed, and it has more cleanses because you are stuck eating up dmg most of the time since you don't have nearly as much block/evade uptime. Rev has sword 3, staff 3, staff 5 and infuse light to rotate between, guard has 2 seconds of invuln on 105 sec cd and that's it if you don't want to count aegis on f3, which is worse than on core guard since it now has a cast time..

 

I wish i mained rev in PvP and not this garbage over which i still play core guard.

Dude, in its currently state even a blinded monkey, with no arms, just using butt on the keyboard can be a good willbender.

Willbender is in every circumstance a powercreep to core (for dps role) and shiro herald.

If you can't play it you probably never reach rank 20 in pvp.