Is warrior even a real class?

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Now you are just repeating yourself and i don't want to repeat myself,

i'll say one last time.

one of his primary objectives is that he still wants to play warrior, by playing something else defeats the purpose and won't reach the end goal.

so your "advice" is no advice, but pointless comment that should not be posted to begin with.

You can believe that if you like ... but I'm not wrong. My advice to play other classes IS the ONLY way players primarily concerned with their performance mitigate the inevitable changes that the game goes through. 

If he wants to play ONLY warrior, he has to do that warts an all ... because class performance is NEVER guaranteed in an MMO.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lighter.5631]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

You can believe that if you like ... but I'm not wrong. My advice to play other classes IS the way players concerned with their performance mitigate the inevitable changes that the game goes through. 

again, he's main objective is to still play warrior and another main objective is performance issue.

if you don't understand what's a main objective in a problem, i don't know what else to say.

 

ignoring the fact that he still wants to play warrior is like ignoring the fact that he is concerned with his performance.

both ignorant.

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Lighter.5631 said:

again, he's main objective is to still play warrior ...

So he has to choose to play warrior as is because it's no secret how infrequent and unaligned balance patches are to what players desire in this game. Again, class performance is fleeting so if you care about performance, you DON'T just play one class if you don't want to get stuck in a low-performance scenario.

I get he's complaining about performance. Playing a high-performance warrior is just not a option available to him, so it's not unreasonable to consider the other class options. Pounding the table about how bad warrior is an EVEN LESS realistic solution than the alternate class option I'm suggesting ... but somehow you are trying to out me as the ignorant one in this thread ... OK GL with the fist-pounding-table solution then ... 🤷‍♂️

See, the problem here is that you were wrong when you set out to prove playing an alternate class wasn't a valid option. The problem with the thread itself is that the OP is trying to give the impression that Anet is forcing him to quit the game because his strict criteria for choosing gives no solution. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Bojjang.1052]

*grabs popcorn*

[Duglaive.5236]

15 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Now you are just repeating yourself and i don't want to repeat myself,

i'll say one last time.

 

 

Should have stopped there. Better yet, never have engaged him in the first place.

 

I can only see the responses as you're quoting the posts, but I'll also do it here: see that line, "but I'm not wrong."? The whole point, for them, are those 4 words. Posters of this ilk are never wrong, and will argue said point till the forums die. It really is better just to add them to your ignored list, and enjoy a somewhat more peaceful forum experience.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

 

Should have stopped there. Better yet, never have engaged him in the first place.

 

I can only see the responses as you're quoting the posts, but I'll also do it here: see that line, "but I'm not wrong."? The whole point, for them, are those 4 words. Posters of this ilk are never wrong, and will argue said point till the forums die. It really is better just to add them to your ignored list, and enjoy a somewhat more peaceful forum experience.

Take the advice, @Lighter.5631. While Obtena can raise the occasional good point, they are very adept at stringing people along like they just did to you, but only if you let it happen. FWIW, you're right in all this exchange.

[Bardock.4718]

Well that escalated quickly.

 

The thing is other classes do not bring me as much joy as warrior does. It may be bias to the warrior class itself. But I just like the whole class fantasy and usual playstyle it comes with. In every MMO that I played to this day, my main was warrior. Every game that I play to this day, that has somewhat class designs I usually play "the warrior alike class", e.g. in League of Legends I main Aatrox.

 

Adding to this I kinda feel cheated by balance in the game. I played warrior thousands of hours. In comparision to this I played Ranger and Engi combined like max 100ish hours in pvp/wvw.  Though the playtime diffrence I achieve more with those classes then with warrior. Both classes have imo more options, sustain and endurance to win a fight. 

 

I am no where the best player. But it kinda speaks to me when I win more with a class that I barely play, then with my main class that I kinda breath.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Bardock.4718

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Bardock.4718 said:

Well that escalated quickly.

 

The thing is other classes do not bring me as much joy as warrior does. It may be bias to the warrior class itself. But I just like the whole class fantasy and usual playstyle it comes with. In every MMO that I played to this day, my main was warrior. Every game that I play to this day, that has somewhat class designs I usually play "the warrior alike class", e.g. in League of Legends I main Aatrox.

 

Adding to this I kinda feel cheated by balance in the game. I played warrior thousands of hours. In comparision to this I played Ranger and Engi combined like max 100ish hours in pvp/wvw.  Though the playtime diffrence I achieve more with those classes then with warrior. Both classes have imo more options, sustain and endurance to win a fight. 

 

I am no where the best player. But it kinda speaks to me when I win more with a class that I barely play, then with my main class that I kinda breath.

Speaks to my experiences as well. I roll soulbeast or scrapper and my guildmates laugh when I start yelling out in discord about how much easier it is to even function much less do damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Y'all letting Obtena kite you on semantics again?

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You can believe that if you like ... but I'm not wrong. My advice to play other classes IS the ONLY way players primarily concerned with their performance mitigate the inevitable changes that the game goes through. 

It's not really about you not being wrong, tbh. It's about "player x invested time, effort and energy in playing a class that -at one point- was suitably pleasant to play, but now is not that due to dev inaction/ current dev balancing direction." 

You can say "just play something else" but that really does nothing to fix the problem (The class will still be bad if player x abandons it) or address the player's concern. (player x wants to play the class, playing another class critically misses that.) 

Make no mistake, you are wrong though, even if we don't weigh playing another class in the same avoidance category as quitting. Playing other classes, while they avoid the problem in the short term, will not always avoid the problem. If issues arise with other classes that make them unpleasant to play, class hopping will get increasingly more frustrating, people will not want to interact with the content, and eventually there will be nowhere to hop -to-.

Unless the devs fix the issues.

I think they should fix the issues well before that point though, do you not? Seems like people constantly subjected to that kind of treatment would start refusing to spend money for content. 

Quote

If he wants to play ONLY warrior, he has to do that warts an all ... because class performance is NEVER guaranteed in an MMO.

Nah, he can also quit or complain about it. Both are valid options.

Furthermore, it's not unreasonable that people expect some measure of class performance across the board in a game environment that encourages you to invest time, energy and resources into gearing out, unlocking skills, and completing content on that character. If they aren't getting that, they can explain why they feel they aren't getting that to the developers in the hopes that the devs, hoping to retain their interest and presence and the interest of new or returning players looking into the class, will adjust things to make it more stable. 

There's no reason to interact with the content if the developers go through all the trouble to provide a specific class that people largely agree has extreme shortcomings that don't balance out with the class's strengths (especially if they did at one point and the other classes largely do now, DOUBLE especially if the devs have on paper expressed interest in balancing the class, just not in a way that fixes the majority of the problems), then don't make an effort to adjust or fix those shortcomings so the experience is better for the people that want to play that class (especially when they do this in a hurry for other classes). 

 

TL;DR Warrior's critically bad in some spheres for a handful of well documented, well argued reasons, kitten "just deal with it" or "just play something else", we don't dodge problems here. All 9 of your classes should be viable across the board, and if they arent you need to be transparent, consistent, and precise with your actions on how you're going to move in that direction.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I think they should fix the issues well before that point though, do you not?

What anyone thinks really isn't relevant to how the game works though ... what do you mean fix the issues? What in the entire existence of the game tells you there is any effort to fixing this issue when the game changes constantly and there has never been on par performance in the past? Is something indicating to you some super-accelerated effort from Anet to change their balancing philosophy and just get it done ASAP? Do you think this is the first time in the history of the game I'm explaining to people these ideas about equivalent performance are not realistic? Like,this hasn't been discussed in the previous decade the game has existed?

So the options the player has here were always clear. It should just not be taken for granted that playing other classes isn't an option to the situation here. That's ALWAYS been the option, short of quitting the game or just not caring about performance. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hotride.2187]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What anyone thinks really isn't relevant though

Woah didn't you have 8k posts like yesterday?

Anyway you can just go play something else and be happy, no need to tell war players to go play something else too. Pretty sure everyone who wants to play something functional has moved on already anyway.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What do you mean fix the issues though? What in the entire existence of the game tells you these are fixable when the game changes constantly and there has never been on par performance in the past? Is something indicating to you some super-accelerate effort  to change their balancing philosophy?

We have multiple examples of classes at one point being unpleasant to play getting reworked/minor buffs and becoming pleasant to play. The game changes constantly which is why there should be constant efforts to adjust things that fall behind. 

Quote

So the options are clear, but make no mistake, pretending playing other classes isn't an option is just wrong. 

Asking someone to play another class when they've spent years playing one class that at one point was entertaining but now has no existing configuration that is entertaining is like asking an artist who has been doing digital artwork for years, but cant use his painting programs due to a bug that makes them not function properly to "just switch to traditional".

Sure, that option exists, but suggesting they do so carries a bunch of underlying implications that treat how they -enjoy- painting so flippantly it borders on insulting.

Seeing if there's a patch or a workaround for the issue would be the first step. Abandoning it is dead last. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We have multiple examples of classes at one point being unpleasant to play getting reworked/minor buffs and becoming pleasant to play. The game changes constantly which is why there should be constant efforts to adjust things that fall behind. 

Asking someone to play another class when they've spent years playing one class that at one point was entertaining but now has no existing configuration that is entertaining is like asking an artist who has been doing digital artwork for years, but cant use his painting programs due to a bug that makes them not function properly to "just switch to traditional".

Sure, that option exists, but suggesting they do so carries a bunch of underlying implications that treat how they -enjoy- painting so flippantly it borders on insulting.

Seeing if there's a patch or a workaround for the issue would be the first step. Abandoning it is dead last. 

OK ... the complaint wasn't about unpleasant to play. It's about performance. Anet can't change a class to meet everyone's definition of 'pleasant to play' anyways because that's subjective. I for one, think it's 'pleasant' to play I'm not alone. I mean, again ... 10 years and we STILL have 'unpleasant' classes, despite ALL the change that have been made over that decade. SO whatever you want to call it, it's not happening. 

Again, the scenario here is that we have a game that is almost a decade old, where classes change frequently and have never been on par with each others performance. That is the environment we have to deal with. 

I'm not asking for anyone to play another class. I'm simply making sure that when people pound on the table to demand Anet fix their class  or else they quit, they aren't ignoring the fundamental premise of how multi-class MMOs give people choice how to play ... and choice for devs to work. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Bardock.4718]

Quote

OK ... the complaint wasn't about unpleasant to play. It's about performance. Anet can't change a class to meet everyone's definition of 'pleasant to play' anyways because that's subjective.

Wrong. I talked about Bladesworn aswell. I really find the design lazy. -> Shoutspam

Berserker does not function in pvp/wvw.

The only spec that left is Spellbreaker, which got gutted several times and pales in comparision to other classes/specs. 

Adding to this Warrior has zero variety kinda in pvp either you play spellbreaker or you kinda cripple yourself even more bc every other spec is even more unuseable.

Performance and class design(pleasant to play) are things that go hand in hand in my opinion atleast.

Both are equally important.

 

*EDIT* changed class to spec (every other spec is even more unuseable)

Edited May 5, 2022 by Bardock.4718

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not asking for anyone to play another class. I'm simply making sure that when people pound on the table to demand Anet fix their class  or else they quit, they aren't ignoring the fundamental premise of how multi-class MMOs work. 

I'm certain anyone that has played a MMO for years understands how multi-class MMOs tend to go when class balance is involved, and those same people would also come to the conclusion that if there is a class that objectively is weaker or more difficult to succeed with than other classes, (especially if it didn't start out that way) it should get rebalancing efforts that adjust those things.

Quote

Wrong. I talked about Bladesworn aswell. I really find the design lazy. -> Shoutspam

Berserker does not function in pvp/wvw.

The only spec that left is Spellbreaker, which got gutted several times and pales in comparision to other classes/specs. 

Adding to this Warrior has zero variety kinda in pvp either you play spellbreaker or you kinda cripple yourself even more bc every other class is even more unuseable.

Performance and class design(pleasant to play) are things that go hand in hand in my opinion atleast.

Both are equally important.

Oh hey look case in point

Edited May 5, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, Bardock.4718 said:

Wrong. I talked about Bladesworn aswell. I really find the design lazy. -> Shoutspam

Berserker does not function in pvp/wvw.

The only spec that left is Spellbreaker, which got gutted several times and pales in comparision to other classes/specs. 

Adding to this Warrior has zero variety kinda in pvp either you play spellbreaker or you kinda cripple yourself even more bc every other spec is even more unuseable.

Performance and class design(pleasant to play) are things that go hand in hand in my opinion atleast.

Both are equally important.

 

*EDIT* changed class to spec (every other spec is even more unuseable)

I don't get what you are telling me I'm wrong about. Like I said, Anet can't cater to what a player finds 'pleasant' to play or not make the design 'less lazy' for you. That's just not possible. Those are subjective things. As for the performance, I didn't disagree there wasn't issues there. 

30 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm certain anyone that has played a MMO for years understands how multi-class MMOs tend to go when class balance is involved, and those same people would also come to the conclusion that if there is a class that objectively is weaker or more difficult to succeed with than other classes, (especially if it didn't start out that way) it should get rebalancing efforts that adjust those things.

OK ... and it's pretty clear that given the decade of rebalancing efforts we have had, that's not a realistic view of how the game works. What something should get because of what players think is clearly not aligned to how Anet proceeds with changing the game.

So you can talk about the fantasy of this ideally on-par performance balance between classes that are  'pleasant' to play ... or you can come back to the reality of how the game works. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Azure The Heartless.3261takes over kitting for Lighter.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261takes over kitting for Lighter.

Lets go

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

25 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you can talk about the fantasy of this ideally on-par performance balance between classes that are  'pleasant' to play ... or you can come back to the reality of how the game works. 

I love this for several reasons, can you guess them all?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I love this for several reasons, can you guess them all?

No, but the one I love the most is how disconnected Obtena is from the true balance of the game. But then Anet seems to be similarly disconnected.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, but the one I love the most is how disconnected Obtena is from the true balance of the game. But then Anet seems to be similarly disconnected.

If expecting a modest effort to be made to keep each class engaging in every content sphere is considered fantastical, then really we have nothing else to discuss. 

And if Anet has no interest in that (I'm aware they do, but priorities are apparently banners), then there's no reason to keep supporting the game with our presence. 

We can ramble about ideals and whether class hopping is the penultimate answer all day but fact of the matter is

war having trouble, 

playerbase reflects that,

 pls fix or youre bleeding war players. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

46 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261takes over kitting for Lighter.

Its a job we all have to do from time to time, distracting them so everyone else can have an actual conversation.

10 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, but the one I love the most is how disconnected Obtena is from the true balance of the game. But then Anet seems to be similarly disconnected.

Maybe they work for Anet?  Or drank the Anet Kool-Aid.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Its a job we all have to do from time to time, distracting them so everyone else can have an actual conversation.

Maybe they work for Anet?  Or drank the Anet Kool-Aid.

I don't think so. Obtena does occasionally raise a good question though, so they are still worth kitting periodically.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If expecting a modest effort to be made to keep each class engaging in every content sphere is considered fantastical, then really we have nothing else to discuss. 

That's exactly correct because it's not about how much effort it would take (because Anet ALREADY puts that level of effort into making class changes). It's about if Anet's targets are for performance equivalence... and nothing about the history of the game suggests it is. Again, you can imagine what you think Anet SHOULD be doing but what your vision of the game is and how it SHOULD work when it doesn't work that way  can't make me wrong. 

Look, I love balance and fair performance match ups as much as the next guy ... but I have NO reason to think that's what this game is ever going to be. I'm just a realist. I think the best we can ever hope for is that  random balance patch where Anet does something for warrior that gives it a boost. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dralor.3701]

Warrior is the worst class in the game right now. I think a big problem has been the class just got power creeped by others and never got compensated. For example multiple sustain nerfs over the years and the whole warrior used to be considered highly mobile pretty much every class has at least one highly mobile elite.

Spell breaker basically got nuked from orbit and is pointless in all game modes. (Yes I’m looking at you WvW roamers too, you’re just coping with a bad spec)

Bladesworn is so clunky I don’t even know where to begin. Feels like a total departure from the original warrior design, getting rooted in place is not okay unless this is only meant for pve.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Dralor.3701
Typos