End of Dragons: revised feedback

[Ashantara.8731]

Two months after release, once the initial euphoria has faded and I have played through and thoroughly explored everything repeatedly, I feel like I need to write a revised feedback as there are many things I didn't notice or take into account back in March.

First off, I'd like to point out that I still consider the execution of the story a success. It has been this expansion's highlight to me. The quality of dialogue has shown a significant improvement from the shameful writing of the Icebrood Saga, and the dramatic composition was extremely well done (pace, cutscenes, camera work, etc). The story missions were engaging, and the new mechanics were used in a smart way, creating completely new puzzles and a lot of fun, and the missions overall showed a lot of innovation in design (the underwater facility still has me in awe).

Secondly, the layouts of the maps are also extremely engaging and fun to explore. A feel of adventure was created that I hadn't felt in a long time in GW2 when roaming a map. The hidden places and mini-dungeons in the Echovald Wilds in particular are fantastic (any bugs aside), and the verticality of New Kaineng City is quite something to behold.

That said, I still have to revise my opinion of EoD being the "best expansion so far." While all of the above is true and I felt super happy to finally be able to dive into another expansion, one that is so well written and has quite a few things going for it, there a those things that really impact the longterm appeal of End of Dragons for me, namely:

• The Bugs:
  I understand that time was an issue in creating this expansion and releasing it on time. Sadly, that doesn't change anything about the amassing frustration of running into a bug every few steps of the story or every other achievement. Many have already been fixed, others still persist after two months. (I wouldn't have minded waiting another six months for EoD's release.)
   
• The ill-matched Color Schemes:
  • Seitung: a pastel colored vegetation with the occasional weirdly radiant tree and tons of radiant light-green grass, mixed with oversaturated red and turquoise/green buildings, accentuated by a depressing bluish fog and monotonously glaring daylight. Those colors are not complementary in the slightest.
  • Kaineng: giant walls of dull grey, mixed with lots of toxic green jade, mixed with the same aforementioned depressing bluish fog and evenly depressing monotonous sky light.
  • Dragon's End: dull colors all around.
     
• Kaineng: Concept Art vs. In-game Realization:
  We saw concept art images that sported a gritty New Kaineng City: streets covered with dirt, straw, puddles of mud, filled with pack animals and busy people dressed in worn clothes, carrying water from the well and doing business. None of that could be found in-game (hell, you can't even interact with the noodle booths). In fact, the whole city, apart from the ruins to the northeast, looks clinically tidy and is way too quiet. That's truly a major letdown from what I had expected to find.
   
• The Jade Sea:
  Nothing left of its former beauty. Nothing left of the Luxons or their culture, either.
   
• Enemy Density and Respawn Times:
  I get it: Echovald is a "warzone between gangs." That alone isn't a very appealing concept to me -- but not being able to finish a conversation with an NPC without being frequently interrupted by crazy aggro ranges and extremely short respawn times is the opposite of immersive. Having to escape fights while exploring, which you otherwise would have every few steps you take, by using your roller beetle or skyscale to rush through an area is the opposite of an immersive experience. It's just annoying, and you miss out on so many wonderful little things, like NPC dialogue for instance.
   
• Means of Travel:
  Too few waypoints (or not enough zip lines). Also, the zip lines are in strange, impractical places -- you are often, if not most of the time, faster by mount.
   
• Rewards:
  I am a huge fan of the Dragon's End meta, though not so much of the other maps' meta events to be honest. I think the biggest flaw is the reward system. My first impression was that it was quite good -- but the longer I play, the less incentive I have to repeat any of the map meta events. They have nothing to offer that is worth my time, and the few things that might be of appeal to me are such extremely rare drops that they alone are not enough to entice me into doing them apart from achievement requirements.
  I'm also missing access to Kurzick and Luxon heritage armor sets -- now, those would have been cool rewards worth doing the metas for.
   
• Elite Specialization Weapon Designs:
  Are we in a Korean anime or Marvel Universe super hero game, or is this still the world of Tyria, for crying out loud? So disappointed to see oversized and outlandish designs like these that are worse than anything of the kind we have had before. I sincerely hope this is not a design direction that we will keep seeing more of in the future, alongside the aforementioned color schemes.
   

Edited May 5, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[misterman.1530]

2 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Elite Specialization Weapon Designs:
Are we in a Korean anime or Marvel Universe super hero game, or is this still the world of Tyria, for crying out loud? To whoever is responsible for those ugly, childish designs: shame on you.

Along with your section on Rewards, this I also agree with whole-heartedly. Absolutely NONE of the new weapon and armor skins appeal to me. They look like some of the terrible decorations you would see at a terrible Chinese restaurant - owned by non-Chinese people.

[vares.8457]

56 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

To whoever is responsible for those ugly, childish designs: shame on you.
 

So someone was responsible for the weapons design and spent his time doing that. You don’t like the outcome and therefore he or she should be ashamed of his work?

 I actually like the new armor skins, don’t care much about weapon skins because I have legendaries  

Don’t get me wrong, Feedback is important but just as much how you articulate it. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by vares.8457

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, vares.8457 said:

So someone was responsible for the weapons design and spent his time doing that.

responsible <> designing them

I doubt the designers do anything without being given directions.

1 hour ago, vares.8457 said:

Don’t get me wrong, Feedback is important but just as much how you articulate it. 

I think I have articulated myself properly up until the last point -- which is due to me thinking that those skins are an abomination, a bad joke, something completely unfitting for this great game, regardless of how you look at it.

[Lottie.5370]

I didn't like a lot of the Elite Spec weapons, but I wouldn't call them ugly or childish. I've seen them look good on the right characters.

 

I also really enjoy the map colour schemes, Seitung and Dragon's End are two of my favourite maps - I could spend hours there.

 

But I have to agree with Echovald being annoying. You're never in combat with one enemy, you're in combat with a group of 5, and if you have to chase one because you're melee, you're going to agro even more. I also hate how often the map-wide chatter is from NPCs, I don't want to hear about the meta every 30 seconds if I'm exploring or fishing.

 

Also agree with the meta rewards. I'm not one that really does content unless I need something from it (e.g. currencies or achievements, or gold), and since I finished the achis I haven't been back to any meta. I'd go back to DE for the rewards, I do enjoy the meta, I just don't have enough free time at the moment given the time investment it requires.

[vares.8457]

5 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

responsible <> designing them

I doubt the designers do anything without being given directions.

I think I have articulated myself properly up until the last point -- which is due to me thinking that those skins are an abomination, a bad joke, something completely unfitting for this great game, regardless of how you look at it.

How would you feel if you spent weeks or maybe months working on something just for someone to come along and say that you should be ashamed of it. Is this how you interact with other people?

I know it’s the internet and many seem to have forgotten their manners here 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I actually thought the elite spec weapons were some of the best we've had so far lol, I'm also a fan of how jade tech looks though. 

[Ashantara.8731]

5 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I actually thought the elite spec weapons were some of the best we've had so far lol, I'm also a fan of how jade tech looks though. 

To each their own. 😉

9 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

How would you feel if you spent weeks or maybe months working on something just for someone to come along and say that you should be ashamed of it. Is this how you interact with other people?

I know it’s the internet and many seem to have forgotten their manners here 

I edited my post. Can we move on now? It think the other points I made are more of more significance than this.

[vares.8457]

5 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

To each their own. 😉

I edited my post. Can we move on now? It think the other points I made are more of more significance than this.

Sure, maybe you learnt that even on the internet you should behave well and articulate yourself in a respectful way. 

I don’t agree with most of your points. I like the colors and the maps. There are enough waypoints. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by vares.8457

[misterman.1530]

8 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Sure, maybe you learnt that even on the internet you should behave well and articulate yourself in a respectful way. 

I don’t agree with most of your points. I like the colors and the maps. There are enough waypoints. 

So you attack the OP because they don't like the costumes and finds them childish? So, you can have an opinion, and they can't?

Interesting.

[Duglaive.5236]

 

Sadly, I concur with your "revised" views. And totally disagree with what you do still find favorable.

 

What do I like then? After giving it another shot, Willbender. Surprising as I've never really enjoyed core Guardian or its other elites. And the DE meta; as much as so many revile it, I've only found it fun if not overly buggy when first released. And lastly I like the overriding design of the maps, but can just as easily relate things I greatly dislike about each.

 

All in all, I'm thankful that Anet released an expansion many players enjoy. I'm also thankful for having finished and obtained my goals in the new zones, and have no need to go back. 

 

Considering how I feel about EoD as a whole, the biggest negative for me personally is that I wasted money purchasing this expac. Nice to support the studio, but that's about it for me.

[vares.8457]

4 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

So you attack the OP because they don't like the costumes and finds them childish? So, you can have an opinion, and they can't?

Interesting.

It is not about the opinion. It is about how it  is articulated. 

[Fuchslein.8639]

17 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

So you attack the OP because they don't like the costumes and finds them childish? So, you can have an opinion, and they can't?

Interesting.

Where did he attack the OP? He just pointet out that the OP worded some points of his Review quite childish himself.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 minute ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Where did he attack the OP? He just pointet out that the OP worded some points of his Review quite childish himself.

Her* review. And I've already edited it. (Though there was nothing childish in my wording, but hey...)

Again, can we move along now, everyone? Thanks.
 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[vares.8457]

3 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Her* review. And I've already edited it. (Though there was nothing childish in my wording, but hey...)

Again, can we move along now, everyone? Thanks.
 

Not childish just a bit rude and derogatory.  

[Ashantara.8731]

5 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Not childish just a bit rude and derogatory.  

 One tiny paragraph in the amount of text I wrote got your knickers in a twist. Got it, fixed it, no need to repeat your stance and derail from the topic. Thanks.
 

28 minutes ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

Sadly, I concur with your "revised" views. And totally disagree with what you do still find favorable.

What do I like then? After giving it another shot, Willbender. Surprising as I've never really enjoyed core Guardian or its other elites. And the DE meta; as much as so many revile it, I've only found it fun if not overly buggy when first released. And lastly I like the overriding design of the maps, but can just as easily relate things I greatly dislike about each.

All in all, I'm thankful that Anet released an expansion many players enjoy. I'm also thankful for having finished and obtained my goals in the new zones, and have no need to go back. 

Considering how I feel about EoD as a whole, the biggest negative for me personally is that I wasted money purchasing this expac. Nice to support the studio, but that's about it for me.

Right, I didn't mention the elite specs per se, but I never liked them in the first place, so that wouldn't really have been a revision of my previous feedback. 😉

I'm sorry you couldn't find anything worthwhile your time and money in this expac. Hopefully, the upcoming Living World season (or whatever it will be called) can provide content you will enjoy. This wasn't the Cantha I had hoped for, either, but after watching the preview streams I had time to get used to that fact. There are still several maps that will be added, so I'm hoping to find some of that there. 🙂

Edited May 5, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[vares.8457]

6 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

 One tiny paragraph in the amount of text I wrote got your knickers in a twist. Got it, fixed it, no need to repeat your stance and derail from the topic. Thanks.
 

Right, I didn't mention the elite specs per se, but I never liked them in the first place, so that wouldn't really have been a revision of my previous feedback. 😉

I'm sorry you couldn't find anything worthwhile your time and money in this expac. Hopefully, the upcoming Living World season (or whatever it will be called) can provide content you will enjoy. This wasn't the Cantha I had hoped for, either, but after watching the preview streams I had time to get used to that fact. There are still several maps that will be added, so I'm hoping to find some of that there. 🙂

You are the one that keeps coming back to it. Didn’t you want to move on? 
But yes, I think it is important to call someone out when he or she behaves in a way that is not okay. Even on the internet. 
 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by vares.8457

[Randulf.7614]

I disagree with the maps being a return to the fun, engaging, exploration of old. I found they have now deviated so far from this, that I’m forcing myself through them when I need to be there for story stuff and it is the first time ever, I am disinterested in 100% map completion. Compared to PoFwhere I could spend weeks just roaming and having mini adventures through events and exploration. EoD has pretty maps, but lack the depth and organic, gameplay focused design most maps have had since launch. Which is a shame, because Kaineng has the basic structure to be one of the best maps in game, but it is is utterly devoid of life and gameplay. I am reminded of Breath of the Wild’s world - a stunning, beautiful, technical wonder without any soul to it due to it’s excessive emptiness.

Pretty much agree with most of the rest of the post. The story - whilst not engaging to me- is well told for what they were aiming for.

And the colours are weird

This feels like a prototype expansion. An early stab at one to evolve from rather than the culmination of two prior expansion which if the best of each were taken, you’d have the perfect GW2 expac. It’s like they deliberately ignored what came before.

No biggie really, but it was disappointing. Boats and fishing have been fun though. And some of the boss animations continue to be top notch, with some great story instances like that mansion puzzle one.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[Ashantara.8731]

13 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I disagree with the maps being a return to the fun, engaging, exploration of old. I found they have now deviated so far from this, that I’m forcing myself through them when I need to be there for story stuff [...]

I can totally relate to the "forcing myself through them", but to me that's not because of the maps' layouts but due to the aforementioned lack of a proper amount of waypoints (I find the zip lines scarce and often non-present where they are needed the most).

It makes repeated exploration, especially for the purpose of map completion, a pain in the behind.

13 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

[...] Which is a shame, because Kaineng has the basic structure to be one of the best maps in game

Indeed.

13 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

This feels like a prototype expansion.

Now that you mention it, I think that is a good way to sum up some of the flaws EoD has. Another six months or so for development probably wouldn't have hurt?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Randulf.7614]

It had more than enough time given what happened to IBS and it was likely similar development time to previous expacs. A different team with different design goals is more likely, especially given the focus was more on story.

GW2 used to be heavily focused on world building and map design, using organic gameplay and events to really tell strong open world stories. That changed around the middle of ls4, with only glimmers seen in places like Grothmar (which was a strong return to form). EoD maps for me are a far cry from where the game was at its peak. 
 

One of the chief causes is the skyscale. Looking at Shing Jea, the geography is a mess. There is height for heights sake in order to make the skyscale relevant and it negatively impacts the feel and flow of the map. PoF made sure it’s landscape was carefully balanced for the mounts. EoD is for want of a better phrase, a ‘mess of purpose’ as it tries to cater for skyscales, boats, Jade bots and other features in map design.

Most of that is likely forgivable if there was actually any content. A bare bones foundation of events and nothing else is not where a third expansion should be. That appears not to be a lack of time, but a deliberate design decision for reasons I can’t fathom

[Jukhy.2431]

I like the area design and colors esp in Seitung which I think looks gorgeous.
Note: I play without postprocessing since I do not like the bloom effect and in prolonged use these effects really stress my eyes.

My negative connotations:
• Few bugs here and there
• Somewhat lacking rewards
• Feels like there's less content than in PoF
• The dawn/dusk very limited fishing time is not good design

[Ashantara.8731]

3 hours ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

I like the area design and colors esp in Seitung which I think looks gorgeous.
Note: I play without postprocessing [...]

I do, too, and I still find the color schemes terrible, even without post-processing. (Note: You can find various elaborate tutorials on color theory online, and EoD is really extremely far off.)

7 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

One of the chief causes is the skyscale. Looking at Shing Jea, the geography is a mess. There is height for heights sake in order to make the skyscale relevant and it negatively impacts the feel and flow of the map.

Yes. It's one of the areas where I missed the placement of zip lines. That's what made exploring beyond your first or second character an unpleasant chore. When you introduce a new mechanic like zip lines, use it properly. Most zip line placements don't make much sense/are useless, and where you need them the most there are none.
 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Kalavier.1097]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:15 AM, Ashantara.8731 said:

• The Jade Sea:
  Nothing left of its former beauty. Nothing left of the Luxons or their culture, either.

 

We all knew the cultural landscape of Cantha would change when we left Winds of Change and read movement of the world. It was made explicitly clear that the Ministry of Purity sought to purge the Luxons and Kurzicks. Both however, have had elements of their cultures and people survive.

[Ashantara.8731]

43 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

We all knew the cultural landscape of Cantha would change when we left Winds of Change

Of course. But while the Kurzick cathedrals (and ghosts!) are still there, there is nothing left of the Luxon culture. Did they assume siege turtles alone would compensate for that?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Kalavier.1097]

9 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Of course. But while the Kurzick cathedrals (and ghosts!) are still there, there is nothing left of the Luxon culture. Did they think siege turtles would compensate for that?
 

There are Luxon shrines, luxon families and storytellers. The three goddesses of the Luxons are still known and revered by some families. There is a boxing champion who is named after one of them, a luxon storyteller who speaks of the destruction of the Jade sea ships.

The Kurzicks and Luxons had very different priorities in life, and that is reflected on what is left. The Luxons never built grand structures or cities, but wandered and had camps or jade mines. The Kurzicks had grand structures.

The Kurzicks fought until every soldier was wiped out. the Luxons fought, but surrendered after a time.

It's just natural that in the end, the nomadic culture would leave less of a physical imprint on the world we've been able to explore.