Oh its monday again? here´s your weekly "Nerf Celestial" Thread!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

No regen, no prot though? You need traits to invest in sustain, those are not suitable for condi on war?

You could run Arms: Top/Bot/Mid Tact: Top/Mid/Mid and Def: Mid/Mid/Mid with Antitoxin Runes or Rune of the Stars along with condi duration reduction food. Mending, Bulls/Throw Bolas, SiO, FGJ, Banner.

You would have very high sustain, cleanse condi very well (in fact immob and cripple would merely flash on your bar and disappear), have decent might and fury uptime, and decent damage.

I've played it. Works fine, just not broken like some other setups with other classes. I've faced tanked Lich Form Reapers with it and stomped them. Fights take forever though. Easier to run Harbae or Renegade and do twice the damage. Better access to better condis that way as well.

[MysteryDude.1572]

i have actually fought a simillary build warrior , he was runing warnhorn tho , it had good sutain good condi pressure ( if it went unnoticed and not cleansed ) but i woudnt call that build too efficient . sure it had "presence" but it lacked smthing to lock me down , immod or smthing . coudlnt kill me either. mara rev with dura runes

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by MysteryDude.1572

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I've played it. Works fine, just not broken like some other setups with other classes. I've faced tanked Lich Form Reapers with it and stomped them. Fights take forever though. Easier to run Harbae or Renegade and do twice the damage. Better access to better condis that way as well.

Thats the thing though, it might take you a while to take down a power build (cele builds often do, when the power player is competent and doesn't make mistakes) but the result is always the same - you win or the power build runs (i.e. you win). Or a power build has a chance against you?

IMO harbringer "can be ignored", its an outlier even for cele builds. Its a whole new level of broken.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Thats the thing though, it might take you a while to take down a power build (cele builds often do, when the power player is competent and doesn't make mistakes) but the result is always the same - you win or the power build runs (i.e. you win). Or a power build has a chance against you?

IMO harbringer "can be ignored", its an outlier even for cele builds. Its a whole new level of broken.

No, a good power build can still win versus a cele warrior. That necro I referenced just spammed 1 in lich form and forgot the rest of the bar. Summon Madness gets forgotten way too easily, not only but that Grim Specter, had they bothered to use it, would have caused a lot of trouble. But they just spammed 1, and I alternated Smoldering Arrow in between my attacks.

[Telgum.6071]

3 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Celestial fixes a lot of things in WvW.

Name one.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, MysteryDude.1572 said:

i have actually fought a simillary build warrior , he was runing warnhorn tho , it had good sutain good condi pressure ( if it went unnoticed and not cleansed ) but i woudnt call that build too efficient . sure it had "presence" but it lacked smthing to lock me down , immod or smthing . coudlnt kill me either. mara rev with dura runes

 

 

^ Exactly. Just because a class has hybrid weapons and might generation does not mean Cele will make it OP. It's the specs that are the problem, not the stat set.

[Zyreva.1078]

40 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

^ Exactly. Just because a class has hybrid weapons and might generation does not mean Cele will make it OP. It's the specs that are the problem, not the stat set.

It has always been possible to make bad builds arround literally anything. Does this mean nothing has ever been op? Certainly not.

So just because some classes/specs/builds are weaker than others, it doesn't mean cele isn't op.

[solemn.9608]

On 5/9/2022 at 12:44 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I hope that you're aware that X celestial build != Y celestial build though.
Celestial is a blank paper, it really shows how broken some stuff is in WvW, because some classes are 10x stronger with celestial than others, is it a stat being a reason for that or a poor balance?

/Thread

Cele fire/air/weaver with all offensive traits is radically different from cele fire/arcane/weaver with barrier traits.

Just nerf traits/utilities/attacks that need to be nerfed. Gut condi completely, for one, almost everything condi is inherently problematic (inb4 "some power skills/builds are also broken therefore your argument is moot" no, power is equally susceptible to balance issues, it's just that it IS generally better balanced than condi which requires an additional mechanic which is often extremely limited to even fight it)

[Riba.3271]

Fix this by

- Concentration: 1% per 15 -> 1% boon duration per 21 concentration (in WvW)

- Expertise: 1% per 15 -> 1% condi duration per 21 expertise (in WvW)

 

Meanwhile also nerfing minstrel and trailblazer stats in directly. Start with that.

 

Q: Why 21?

A: Because then it matches stat given by precision fitting in existing game systems and being equally easy to remember. 25 would already be too much of a nerf for other statlines.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

45 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

Fix this by

- Concentration: 1% per 15 -> 1% boon duration per 21 concentration (in WvW)

- Expertise: 1% per 15 -> 1% condi duration per 21 expertise (in WvW)

 

Meanwhile also nerfing minstrel and trailblazer stats in directly. Start with that.

 

Q: Why 21?

A: Because then it matches stat given by precision fitting in existing game systems and being equally easy to remember. 25 would already be too much of a nerf for other statlines.

OR how about the inverse? 15 precision -> 1% crit chance. Would buff Power builds to counter condi tanks better. There is more justification for that since 15 ferocity is 1% crit damage, 15 concentration is 1% boon duration, and 15 expertise is 1% condition duration. The only odd one out is precision.

[Hotride.2187]

After dropping patch notes, again forgetting wvw roaming exists... I really wanna see statistics for players in each mode. Would be great to see if its just me or player count really is dropping in wvw.

[Riba.3271]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

OR how about the inverse? 15 precision -> 1% crit chance. Would buff Power builds to counter condi tanks better. There is more justification for that since 15 ferocity is 1% crit damage, 15 concentration is 1% boon duration, and 15 expertise is 1% condition duration. The only odd one out is precision.

Precision is already as good as power for DPS so buffing it would make it much better than power. Maybe they should put everything at 20 stats -> 1% and in return buff power coefficients of skills. This would make power builds less reliant on stacking 3 offensive stats.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, solemn.9608 said:

Cele fire/air/weaver with all offensive traits is radically different from cele fire/arcane/weaver with barrier traits.

And if you slap anything else but cele onto those builds it doesn't matter, right ...

1 hour ago, Threather.9354 said:

Fix this by

- Concentration: 1% per 15 -> 1% boon duration per 21 concentration (in WvW)

- Expertise: 1% per 15 -> 1% condi duration per 21 expertise (in WvW)

 

Meanwhile also nerfing minstrel and trailblazer stats in directly. Start with that.

Nerfs a lot of stat combinations that are already garbage and does not address the huge discrepancy in total stats between cele and any other attribute combination.

Edited May 10, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

Fix this by

- Concentration: 1% per 15 -> 1% boon duration per 21 concentration (in WvW)

- Expertise: 1% per 15 -> 1% condi duration per 21 expertise (in WvW)

 

Meanwhile also nerfing minstrel and trailblazer stats in directly. Start with that.

 

Q: Why 21?

A: Because then it matches stat given by precision fitting in existing game systems and being equally easy to remember. 25 would already be too much of a nerf for other statlines.

i suggested this a few weeks ago! This would tune down Boons and conditions slightly. Great idea!

[Sahne.6950]

10 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Nerfs a lot of stat combinations that are already garbage and does not address the huge discrepancy in total stats between cele and any other attribute combination.

WEll... this is true also... Imo they should do both actually.... shave 10% stats from Cele AND bring Concentration and Expertise down. Because outside of the Celestialproblem.... we also have a (in my opinion) to much mindless boonspamming... and Conditions completly dominating smallscale at the moment....  

Just do all 3 changes! pwease!

[TheGrimm.5624]

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On 5/9/2022 at 9:04 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Is it a bird? is it a plane? NOO, its just celestial being miles above every other statcombination for roaming!

Seriously. Celestial is pushing every build that doesnt have a ton of sustain or stealth out of the roaming meta. Alot of the builds just cant break thru the sustainwall that alot of the popular Celestialbuilds have. The Celestialbuilds then win the fights by slowly draining the enemy sustain until they have no cleanses left and die.

If you are not running Celestial... are you even roaming?

 

OHH before anyone comes around the corner with that smart "just play spvp" argument: NO! WvW is not only largescale. we can NOT ignore roaming. If we do that... its GG for the whole gamemode.

 

Roaming on Cele stats only work on core or Elite classes that are mixed between power/condi/heal traits. 23 WvW toons of 31. Power builds with Cele aren't as efficient, condi builds or sustain aren't as well. Again, played in the day when Cele was OP for all, we aren't in that state right now. There is a place for Cele as there are for Power, Condi and Sustain in roaming.

[Sahne.6950]

32 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

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Roaming on Cele stats only work on core or Elite classes that are mixed between power/condi/heal traits. 23 WvW toons of 31. Power builds with Cele aren't as efficient, condi builds or sustain aren't as well. Again, played in the day when Cele was OP for all, we aren't in that state right now. There is a place for Cele as there are for Power, Condi and Sustain in roaming.

when was that magical days where Celestial was stronger than it is now? am i missing something?

In my humble opinion, Every profession, besides Thief and Warrior, have a Celestialbuild that greatly outperforms every other build for their respective profession. And i think that should not be the case. Celestial should not overshadow every other statcombination possible.

CelestialsignetMirage/CelestialVirtuose;Celeboonbeast;Celerenegade;CeleBurnguard;Celeharbinger;CeleFireweaver

All of those are significantly stronger than any other possible build/statcombination for their respective Profession. If we measure strength by those 2 Builds fighting eachother. The Celestialbuilds will almost always win. Sure, for ganking some powerbuilds will produce a higher burst, but in any other situation you are better off running the Celebuild, and i 100% stand by that.

I think its strange that you are saying that power has a place, Condi has a place, and sustain has a place, same as celestial has a place... when in reality Celestial has all of those places combined... I guess we just dont agree on this.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

when was that magical days where Celestial was stronger than it is now?

 

Since we have gone thru about 2-3 different versions of the forums I am going to ball park based on when some friends quit because of the nerf hammer to Cele. Call it 4-5 years ago and even then I had to agree and argue with them that Cele was king of hill for all style of builds. After that nerf you could see the difference in fights. Now its better but still a niche but only if the classes uses the mixed types.

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Since we have gone thru about 2-3 different versions of the forums I am going to ball park based on when some friends quit because of the nerf hammer to Cele. Call it 4-5 years ago and even then I had to agree and argue with them that Cele was king of hill for all style of builds. After that nerf you could see the difference in fights. Now its better but still a niche but only if the classes uses the mixed types.

oh okey... i must have missed that...  i had a few years break of gw2...

i would not call it a niche, when over 50% of people your meet in WvW Roaming are rocking Celestial...

Are you roaming alot? the ammount of people using Celestial has skyrocketed in the last 5 months or so. Its absurd. You have SOOOO MANY fights where simply noone is dying and you decide to call it a day after 10+ minutes. Gameplay has slowed down so hard in Roaming.... its really not fun anymore, and i know alot of people that have quit because of (citation) "This Celenonsense".

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

oh okey... i must have missed that...  i had a few years break of gw2...

i would not call it a niche, when over 50% of people your meet in WvW Roaming are rocking Celestial...

Are you roaming alot? the ammount of people using Celestial has skyrocketed in the last 5 months or so. Its absurd. You have SOOOO MANY fights where simply noone is dying and you decide to call it a day after 10+ minutes. Gameplay has slowed down so hard in Roaming.... its really not fun anymore, and i know alot of people that have quit because of (citation) "This Celenonsense".

 

I have been forum bashed for hours in game, at about 13K hours now, most of that WvW and at least half of WvW as roamer and most of rest as havoc. To me, your mileage will vary. But it was the Feb nerf patch where Anet tried to balance zerk game play by nerfing damage. Cele and sustain did get stronger there but tank builds did as well. Tanky builds weren't one shot before the nerf patch either. They tried to balance glass on glass. Instead of the mass nerf they should have addressed the real issue in the damage multipliers that allowed the cumulative adjustments that lead to the numbers. But instead decided nerf power and condi which impacted both zerg play as well as havoc and roamer in different extents.

[Hotride.2187]

20 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, a good power build can still win versus a cele warrior. That necro I referenced just spammed 1 in lich form and forgot the rest of the bar. Summon Madness gets forgotten way too easily, not only but that Grim Specter, had they bothered to use it, would have caused a lot of trouble. But they just spammed 1, and I alternated Smoldering Arrow in between my attacks.

Man war really is bad at everything. Was not expecting this.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

45 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Man war really is bad at everything. Was not expecting this.

Warrior is just a stat check at the point, which makes the empty area where Warrior should be in the patch notes all the more glaring.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

I have been forum bashed for hours in game, at about 13K hours now, most of that WvW and at least half of WvW as roamer and most of rest as havoc. To me, your mileage will vary. But it was the Feb nerf patch where Anet tried to balance zerk game play by nerfing damage. Cele and sustain did get stronger there but tank builds did as well. Tanky builds weren't one shot before the nerf patch either. They tried to balance glass on glass. Instead of the mass nerf they should have addressed the real issue in the damage multipliers that allowed the cumulative adjustments that lead to the numbers. But instead decided nerf power and condi which impacted both zerg play as well as havoc and roamer in different extents.

I made a thread about that prior to Feb2020 when they stated what they were going to do.

My idea was to cap the % increase in damage to 300%, including critical damage. The forums trashed it with something along the lines of "but then you'd have a tank meta." Well, guess what happened anyway! Besides my suggestion would have only lowered the damage ceiling rather than the damage ceiling AND the damage floor. Would have been easier to do  as well...

[Zyreva.1078]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Since we have gone thru about 2-3 different versions of the forums I am going to ball park based on when some friends quit because of the nerf hammer to Cele. Call it 4-5 years ago and even then I had to agree and argue with them that Cele was king of hill for all style of builds. After that nerf you could see the difference in fights. Now its better but still a niche but only if the classes uses the mixed types.

I'm very certain cele gear has never been nerfed outside of sPvP. You are probably thinking about builds that ran cele.

And while some cele builds where quite strong at some points, the stats were never as dominating in WvW as they are now.

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

In my humble opinion, Every profession, besides Thief and Warrior, have a Celestialbuild that greatly outperforms every other build for their respective profession.

Not sure if you should exempt thief, considering i have been able to put up a decent fight as cele specter vs very good sa dp daredevils as well as win plenty of other 1vs1/1vs2 the very first day i picked up the class. That shouldn't happen, i mean, i was just pressing random buttons ...

[Hotride.2187]

8 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Not sure if you should exempt thief, considering i have been able to put up a decent fight as cele specter vs very good sa dp daredevils as well as win plenty of other 1vs1/1vs2 the very first day i picked up the class. That shouldn't happen, i mean, i was just pressing random buttons ...

My first duel vs specter was actually a cele one. Really strong sustain and even its power dmg was not that bad. Condi pressure was not the best, but as with most cele builds it eventually burns through your cleanses.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Hotride.2187