Balancing Conditons

[Kuma.1503]

Step 1. Reduce the value of the condition damage stat.

Step 2. Reduce damage of burning at low condition damage stat values. (This is to offset precision change)

Step 3. Add Expertise Amulets back into the game. 

Step 4. Precision gains an additional effect. Your conditions deal X% more damage. The Value of X scales with your precision stat. 

 

Condi now require 3 stats to reach maximum value just like Power Stats. Playing a condi tank comes with a more significant damage trade-off.  

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Kuma.1503
Burning OP. Lets not buff power guard.

[Kuma.1503]

Quoted self instead of editing...

I'll use this post to explain the burning change. 

Builds with a lot of burning already deal a lot of burn damage even with full power stats. Lowering burning damage for builds with low condition damage prevents them from becoming OP after the precision buff. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Curennos.9307]

Only if condi amulets have the option of converting all the power stats they're forced to take into something else.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

How to fix problems in GW2 in a few steps:

1. Delete Stealth.
2. Delete Conditions.
3. Delete Boons.

No need to thank me.

[wasss.1208]

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Condi now require 3 stats to reach maximum value just like Power Stats. Playing a condi tank comes with a more significant damage trade-off.  

Back in core times, we had sigils and traits, that gave us bleeding on crits, so precision was still worth something, on a condi build. Earth Sigil got removed during the big PvP Sigil rework, and on crit bleed proc. traits got nerfed to oblivion in the 2020 february balance patch. There isn't much incentive to have precision ever since.

While your suggestion could work on making conditions more stat dependant, I think giving us condi traits, that interact with critical hits could achieve the same, with less core mechanical changes to the game.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

hopefully we can also cleanse power damage, or remove every power amulet that gives health, toughness or healing power, as that would be unfair now wouldnt it ?

[Fueki.4753]

22 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

How to fix problems in GW2 in a few steps:

1. Delete Stealth.
2. Delete Conditions.
3. Delete Boons.

No need to thank me.

You forgot one:

4. Give players Defiance bars

[Downstate.4697]

Or...give professions like warrior more access to resolution and resistance. Or...fix cc spam so condi builds dont profit off of you not cleansing

[FarmBotXD.1430]

25 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Or...give professions like warrior more access to resolution and resistance. Or...fix cc spam so condi builds dont profit off of you not cleansing

saying that condi builds shouldnt profit off you not cleansing is so idiotic that its not even funny anymore

[Downstate.4697]

Not what i meant. I meant certain professions will cc lock you with condis making it so you cant cleanse at all. Personally i dont think condis are much of an issue at all.

[Curennos.9307]

42 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Not what i meant. I meant certain professions will cc lock you with condis making it so you cant cleanse at all. Personally i dont think condis are much of an issue at all.

How is this different from being CC'd and failing to stunbreak so you get nuked by power damage.

[Eugchriss.2046]

Or make every condi 1 sec duration and force expertise back in the game. Same with boons, everything 1 sec duration unless you invest into concentration. That's actually balance: you only get what you invested into, nothing more.

[Swagg.9236]

Said it before; I'll say it again.  Conditions CANNOT be balanced.  They have no actual role.  The fact that "condition damage" (DoT) directly competes with "direct damage" will always force conditions to straddle a line of "worse than power" or "better than power" with zero reasoning or role-based value.

You can't balance conditions if they don't have a role.  You also can't balance something which carries no innate opportunity cost.  Nobody has to flex any creativity in order to build condition synergy in a "condition build" in GW2; they just equip the "condition weapon" and slot the "condition gear" before slapping buttons like anybody else.  There is no depth to it, and it pushes another already present source of damage out of the option pool with no real outlet or purpose for the other builds.

Basically, you need to remove conditions from weapons, isolate them into the utility skill pool, and then make weapons with mechanics that gain specific synergy boosts when interacting with certain conditions.  Then you can start actually balancing whatever seems overtuned or worthless.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

7 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Said it before; I'll say it again.  Conditions CANNOT be balanced.  They have no actual role.  The fact that "condition damage" (DoT) directly competes with "direct damage" will always force conditions to straddle a line of "worse than power" or "better than power" with zero reasoning or role-based value.

You can't balance conditions if they don't have a role.  You also can't balance something which carries no innate opportunity cost.  Nobody has to flex any creativity in order to build condition synergy in a "condition build" in GW2; they just equip the "condition weapon" and slot the "condition gear" before slapping buttons like anybody else.  There is no depth to it, and it pushes another already present source of damage out of the option pool with no real outlet or purpose for the other builds.

Basically, you need to remove conditions from weapons, isolate them into the utility skill pool, and then make weapons with mechanics that gain specific synergy boosts when interacting with certain conditions.  Then you can start actually balancing whatever seems overtuned or worthless.

you just described it well, problem is you described a power build.
you equip a power build and you slap people.
its the condi builds that take more effort and more strategy, baiting out cleanses, knowing how much each class can cleanse, covering conditions, holding off cooldowns to not put damaging condis on top.
power damage is ooga booga CC -> vomit dmg

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

power damage is ooga booga CC -> vomit dmg

In my experience, it's far more often that it's the conditions, not power damage, that are excessively vomited over CC'd opponents, with barely half a thought involved.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Eugchriss.2046]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

In my experience, it's far more often that it's the conditions, not power damage, that are excessively vomited over CC'd opponents, with barely half a thought involved.

Then you have a kitten condi experience. Condis are the opposite of power damage. You first land the condi and only then you CC to make sure they tick.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

12 minutes ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Then you have a kitten condi experience. Condis are the opposite of power damage. You first land the condi and only then you CC to make sure they tick.

Why not just keep vomiting condies like usual? More effective and not needed brain to execute.

[Eugchriss.2046]

46 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Why not just keep vomiting condies like usual? More effective and not needed brain to execute.

Same with power but yall trying to make it look like condi are easier. Like "I have to bait his dodges, not once but twice. Then I have to bait his blocks, his invul frames and only then I will CC and burst him down like a true hero"...like stop the cap.

[Bale.3851]

14 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Said it before; I'll say it again.  Conditions CANNOT be balanced.  They have no actual role.  The fact that "condition damage" (DoT) directly competes with "direct damage" will always force conditions to straddle a line of "worse than power" or "better than power" with zero reasoning or role-based value.

 

Same can be said about power dmg. Its an mmo which is always hard if not impossible to balance. Also balance is no absolute point you can pin point.

 

14 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Nobody has to flex any creativity in order to build condition synergy in a "condition build" in GW2; they just equip the "condition weapon" and slot the "condition gear" before slapping buttons like anybody else.  There is no depth to it, and it pushes another already present source of damage out of the option pool with no real outlet or purpose for the other builds.

Again same applies for power dmg. Both are press button x get value y. Whats the difference? Most speccs have the same burst combos with power and condi dmg e.g. Mesmer/Thief/Necro.

 

14 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Basically, you need to remove conditions from weapons, isolate them into the utility skill pool, and then make weapons with mechanics that gain specific synergy boosts when interacting with certain conditions.  Then you can start actually balancing whatever seems overtuned or worthless.

Terrible idea. Such condi utility skills had to be super overkill to compensate the of condi dmg on weapons. The better solution would be what OP had suggested. But keep in mind that cele would be even more the go to gear for condi classes.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

Reduce dots , but 20% of Condition will transform into power

[SlayerXX.7138]

Most professions can run up to 4 condition cleanse(heal + utility's) but they mostly run 1. Something like thief shadow step doesn't count. People run that because it is a port+stunbreak the condition cleanse is just a bonus.
So I doubt condition damage is a real problem right now.

Just look at ranger.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring Ranger does have an AOE condition cleanse that does cleanse 10 per target over 10 seconds. Both high rated ranger builds on metabattle don't use it.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Untamed_-_LB/GS_Untamed_Marksman

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_Core_Valkyrie

If you personally struggle with conditions look at your traits/utilities and just slot one more cleanse in.

 

[Eugchriss.2046]

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Most professions can run up to 4 condition cleanse(heal + utility's) but they mostly run 1. Something like thief shadow step doesn't count. People run that because it is a port+stunbreak the condition cleanse is just a bonus.
So I doubt condition damage is a real problem right now.

Just look at ranger.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring Ranger does have an AOE condition cleanse that does cleanse 10 per target over 10 seconds. Both high rated ranger builds on metabattle don't use it.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Untamed_-_LB/GS_Untamed_Marksman

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_Core_Valkyrie

If you personally struggle with conditions look at your traits/utilities and just slot one more cleanse in.

 

Exactly this. There is an innately biais with power build in that their main priorities is to output damage and have few passive heal for the in between bursts. They only pick condi cleanses traits/skills if there is nothing better. So of course THEY ARE GOING TO STRUGGLE WITH STUFFS THEY DIDN T BUILD FOR. Why is that support are barely if not at all complaining about condis while playing the same game? 

This is the exact same thing with trapper DH where they were taking every damaging traits possible and then complain that DH is trash without trapper rune...like no kitten. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Eugchriss.2046

[Bazsi.2734]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:16 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

How to fix problems in GW2 in a few steps:

1. Delete Stealth.
2. Delete Conditions.
3. Delete Boons.

No need to thank me.

You forgot the last step!
 

4. Delete the game

[Hotride.2187]

14 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

you just described it well, problem is you described a power build.
you equip a power build and you slap people.
its the condi builds that take more effort and more strategy, baiting out cleanses, knowing how much each class can cleanse, covering conditions, holding off cooldowns to not put damaging condis on top.
power damage is ooga booga CC -> vomit dmg

Ah so thats why people play condi bunkers. To spare themselves the strategy part, cause the opponents cleanses will run out eventually - just bunker long enough.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Swagg.9236]

7 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

 

Same can be said about power dmg. Its an mmo which is always hard if not impossible to balance. Also balance is no absolute point you can pin point.

 

Again same applies for power dmg. Both are press button x get value y. Whats the difference? Most speccs have the same burst combos with power and condi dmg e.g. Mesmer/Thief/Necro.

 

Terrible idea. Such condi utility skills had to be super overkill to compensate the of condi dmg on weapons. The better solution would be what OP had suggested. But keep in mind that cele would be even more the go to gear for condi classes.

As a thought experiment for you, swap every instance of "condition" and "power/direct damage" in my original post.  The secret here is that they are both functionally identical.  This is why you see certain classes running conditions builds over power builds and vise versa:  it's not about creativity or skill level; it's entirely just a numbers game.

It doesn't matter which of the two is the "primary means by which players deal damage" and which one is the "synergy-based mechanic which needs set-up triggers to yield it's full impact," power has to be one and conditions have to be the other.   Right now, they're both the former, and that's why nobody is satisfied.

It's not about making them equivalent.  That's insane.  Why would you do that?  They both need a role; and one of those roles needs to be something which isn't explicitly "make red bar go down."