Hmmm so the new xpac has been out a while now would you say its P2W?

[StarPT.7431]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Ok, I'll buy Heroic edition i.e. the core game. According to you that should be enough since the game is buy to play.

Gw2 is slightly p2w, like 2/10 which is still way less than most pvp games.

(Technically it is like 8/10 if we count buying mAT wins)

There's one issue with that logic: Anet doesn't sell it neither do their authorized sellers.

Actually there's another issue, per OP's logic: That would allow you to use map chat, that's P2W 😛

The only dumb thing Anet does monetization-wise is hiding the LWS from new players, they should include it in the packs or something, besides that there's nothing that even resembles P2W (no, buying legendary is not P2W, no buying mats is not P2W....you don't win anything, you just cut time out of stuff for a very IRL expensive price, given the horizontal progression nature of the game you win nothing by having that gear)

Edited May 22, 2022 by StarPT.7431

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, StarPT.7431 said:

There's one issue with that logic: Anet doesn't sell it neither do their authorized sellers.

Actually there's another issue, per OP's logic: That would allow you to use map chat, that's P2W 😛

The only dumb thing Anet does monetization-wise is hiding the LWS from new players, they should include it in the packs or something, besides that there's nothing that even resembles P2W (no, buying legendary is not P2W, no buying mats is not P2W....you don't win anything, you just cut time out of stuff for a very IRL expensive price, given the horizontal progression nature of the game you win nothing by having that gear)

How is map chat p2w? Team chat you could actually argue, luckily f2p accs can use team chat.

And I agree, I generally like the gw2 monetization except living story as you mentioned

Edited May 22, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[StarPT.7431]

5 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

How is map chat p2w? Team chat you could actually argue, luckily f2p accs can use team chat.

And I agree, I generally like the gw2 monetization except living story as you mentioned

Just cracking a joke at people that call everything under the sun P2W, nothing else xD

[Shadow Dragon.1469]

On 5/22/2022 at 9:32 AM, StarPT.7431 said:

Just cracking a joke at people that call everything under the sun P2W, nothing else xD

 

i mean if you're going to joke use one that makes sense, as the other poster said team chat is all that matters (if you look at the f2p side of it) but as a vet who bought gw2 originally it wasn't "free" to me and that is the direction im looking at it from because gw2 wasn't always f2p for the majority of its life span it wasn't thats still a more recent thing.

 

edit: so the topic assumes you are somewhat seasoned and have at least a core acct not a f2p one but even if you were f2p it changes nothing. also i find it funny that this trevor dude voted no but has made all these complaint topics about the new specs being too strong lmao thats why polls are silly sometimes & cant be trusted.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Shadow Dragon.1469

[StarPT.7431]

14 hours ago, Shadow Dragon.1469 said:

 

i mean if you're going to joke use one that makes sense, as the other poster said team chat is all that matters (if you look at the f2p side of it) but as a vet who bought gw2 originally it wasn't "free" to me and that is the direction im looking at it from because gw2 wasn't always f2p for the majority of its life span it wasn't thats still a more recent thing.

 

edit: so the topic assumes you are somewhat seasoned and have at least a core acct not a f2p one but even if you were f2p it changes nothing. also i find it funny that this trevor dude voted no but has made all these complaint topics about the new specs being too strong lmao thats why polls are silly sometimes & cant be trusted.

My joke makes as much sense as you saying this game is p2w xD

[Dadnir.5038]

It might not be "P2W" as there are still a few skilled players that don't need a specific spec to be "good". However the devs sure know how to nerf the previous spec to open space for the new one.

[Kuma.1503]

While this might be a controversial statement, GW2, in general, is a P2W game.

A fun, beautiful game with gorgeous artwork, great voice acting, and the most engaging MMO combat on the market in my opinion, but still P2W nontheless. 

You can credit card swipe your way to level 80, full ascended, full infusions, legendary weapons, getting a massive head start on a player who tries to grind these things out... Yes you can earn these things in game, albiet slower, but that's a classic smokescreen that more predatory games use when they say "you can technically earn it in game so it's not P2W". Time, afterall, is a valuable resource. 

Elite specs are pay to win in the most literal sense. Anet is not afraid to butcher core specs into near unplayability if it will tone down the elites. 

For example, If you play core engi and you card swipe for either PoF or HoT your chances of winning in competetive modes just increased substantially. Trying to go F2P as an engineer player is a massive handicap because it is arguably the worst class in competetive without elites. 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

people don't even understand basic concepts anymore. this game isn't p2w. p2w would mean an expac making every other non expac spec irrelevant or very underpowered.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

people don't even understand basic concepts anymore. this game isn't p2w. p2w would mean an expac making every other non expac spec irrelevant or very underpowered.

Yes. All of engi's elite specs are Core Engi++ because core engi is terrible. The same can be said for core ele. If you're F2p only you're playing an underpowered class that constantly gets nerfed because of paywalled content you don't have access too... which heavily incentivizes you to buy the paywalled content. 

A game being P2W isn't a death sentence, and ANet isn't NEARLY as bad about it as companies like Activision and EA. 

Things Gw2 does (Exp boosters, Real world cash to gold conversions, level boots, build templates, unbreakable tools, paywalled classes ect.) All fall under the P2W umbrella because they give a paying player a tangible advantage over a non paying player. 

BUT ANet did a good job of ensuring that this advantage does not mean that the paying player immediately succeeds in competive or end game content. This game rewards skill far more than it rewards build with good players dealing magnitudes more dps than new players. Most these with the exception of Xpacs boil down to time saves and convenience, which gamers tend to have less of a problem with than direct advantages (Warframe is a perfect example of this). 

 

So while this game and it's expansions can be considered P2W by definition, the lack of predatory monitization, overal quality of the game, and the community goodwill Anet managed to create means that I would still consider Gw2 a great game. Companies gotta make their money somehow, and I don't mind the ways ANet decided to make theirs. 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

All fall under the P2W umbrella because they give a paying player a tangible advantage over a non paying player. 

thats an extremely ambiguous and easy to apply definition of p2w. its wrong cuz if a particular thing doesn't give a player a winning advantage over another player, its not p2w. you can play all core classes and do well enough to get plat. gw2 is buy to play, if you disagree and think paying $50 for ALL 3 expacs is p2w, i dunno what to tell ya. i don't understand ppl's desire to have f2p core classes on the same footing as expac specs. btw type in buy to play and go to the wikipedia page, gw2 is listed there loler.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Kuma.1503]

 

45 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

thats an extremely ambiguous and easy to apply definition of p2w. its wrong cuz if a particular thing doesn't give a player a winning advantage over another player, its not p2w. you can play all core classes and do well enough to get plat. gw2 is buy to play, if you disagree and think paying $50 for ALL 3 expacs is p2w, i dunno what to tell ya. i don't understand ppl's desire to have f2p core classes on the same footing as expac specs. btw type in buy to play and go to the wikipedia page, gw2 is listed there loler.

Unfortunately, P2W is one of those terms that lack an official definition, so what constitutes P2W is liable to vary from person to person. 

Some consider it a spectrum rather than a binary "it is or it isn't" kind of thing. If you consider where Gw2 falls on that spectrum, it's in a comfortable spot where it has P2W elements, but they're so minor most players can just ignore them with no significantly impact on gameplay. 

 

If you go by the Urban Dictionary defintion:

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

The first half: "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate"

This describes, to the letter, anyone credit card swipes their way to a full set of gear or legendaries. Anyone who level boosts, and anyone who makes the decision to work a real world job as their gold farm. No gold farm in the game can compete with the irl gold farm, lets be completely honest here. 

The second half: " and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for the people who have skill in the game without paying".

This still describes Gw2. 

Unless we're going to ignore the pages upon pages of complaints about Willbender and Harbinger. The years of complaints about Firebrand + Scourge in its prime. The constant complaints about Holosmith when it dominated the meta. 

These players who payed money for the expansions, had a significant advantage over people who didn't. Yes, better players could overcome them thorugh superior skill, in the same way that "A good Roy can beat any Fox", but this doesn't change the fact that Fox is the objectively better character with a better matchup spread, better mobility, better recovery, ect. 

This is just PvP. It's more obvious if you look at PvE. No amount of skill is going to turn a core guard into a Firebrand, a core necro into a scourge, a core ranger into a druid, ect. Supports rule PvE, and the best supports are Xpac locked. 

I will be competely fair to GW2, while it is pay to win it isn't greedy. You don't have to shell out cash day after day to remain competetive the same way you would with a game like YuGiOh. You pay a small fee once and to close the gap between you an anyone else. And once you've invested a relatively small amount of  time into the game, any advantage a newer player can gain by paying is inconsequential to you. 

That's why, even though it can be considered P2W by definition, I don't mind it in this game. Not all P2W is created equal. Some (Like in Warframe) is widely considered fine by their playerbase and some (Like in Mario Kart Mobile) is so bad savvy gamers won't touch it with a nine foot pole. I expect to have to pay something  to access the game's content, and a one time xpac payment is as resonable as it gets. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If you ignore the F2P part of GW2 consider the price of each new Xpacs the same as the price of buying a game and just assume that as the price of admission for enjoying GW2. 

Essentially treating the F2P aspect as a generous free trail of sorts, and each new Expansion as an (extremely) cheap subscripiton you pay once every few years, then GW2 loses the 2nd half of the definition.  We can assume everyone has access to elite specs, and the only advantage you get is via the time saving, convenience features and gold conversions I mentioned earlier. Again, all things you see in games like Warframe which are still beloved by their community. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

snips

so what this comes down to is ppl stretching the definition of p2w so they can use it for their own ends. are expac specs strong? ofc they are. does this mean paying for the price of a game like you would for any other is p2w? apparently buying games is considered p2w now, k lol whatever this convo is heading no where.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

double post pls ignore

Edited May 25, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Handsel.2891]

Is releasing content pay-to-win now, fellas?

[StarPT.7431]

21 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

While this might be a controversial statement, GW2, in general, is a P2W game.

A fun, beautiful game with gorgeous artwork, great voice acting, and the most engaging MMO combat on the market in my opinion, but still P2W nontheless. 

You can credit card swipe your way to level 80, full ascended, full infusions, legendary weapons, getting a massive head start on a player who tries to grind these things out... Yes you can earn these things in game, albiet slower, but that's a classic smokescreen that more predatory games use when they say "you can technically earn it in game so it's not P2W". Time, afterall, is a valuable resource. 

Elite specs are pay to win in the most literal sense. Anet is not afraid to butcher core specs into near unplayability if it will tone down the elites. 

For example, If you play core engi and you card swipe for either PoF or HoT your chances of winning in competetive modes just increased substantially. Trying to go F2P as an engineer player is a massive handicap because it is arguably the worst class in competetive without elites. 

 

Headstart on what? Let's say I swipe my card as a fresh player and do all that you said..what do I win? What advantage do I really get? I will still have no skill, those items will not give me some insane powerup.

Elite specs are supposed to be better than core, that's why they are ELITE and can only be unlocked after all the core is unlocked, they are literally meant to be a way to upgrade and specialize a core class. 

Also, the F2P version is nothing but a trial, free and without time limit yes, but a trial regardless, you can't complain, while playing a free trial, that a person that bought the  full game has access to more stuff than you.

Edited May 26, 2022 by StarPT.7431

[kharmin.7683]

40 minutes ago, StarPT.7431 said:

 

Elite specs are supposed to be better than core, that's why they are ELITE and can only be unlocked after all the core is unlocked, they are literally meant to be a way to upgrade and specialize a core class. 

 

Actually, this is inaccurate from Anet's perspective.  Elite builds are meant as a different way to play a profession, not as an upgrade or better spec.  Now, that may not be how it turned out, but let's not misunderstand Anet's original intentions.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Actually, this is inaccurate from Anet's perspective.  Elite builds are meant as a different way to play a profession, not as an upgrade or better spec.  Now, that may not be how it turned out, but let's not misunderstand Anet's original intentions.

it doesn't matter what their intentions were (they call wvw a cornerstone and leave pvp in gigantic balance droughts), making new content without improving on the old content means there is no incentive to buy it. also what self respecting dev would be proud of making more of the same?

[StarPT.7431]

15 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Actually, this is inaccurate from Anet's perspective.  Elite builds are meant as a different way to play a profession, not as an upgrade or better spec.  Now, that may not be how it turned out, but let's not misunderstand Anet's original intentions.

Intentions here don't matter, it's the end result that does, and after 3 sets of elites it's pretty safe to assume what their take is on that.

Plus it seems to me that core classes can be more relevant in PvP (depending on which) than they are in PvE

[Dadnir.5038]

From my point of view, a game is P2W when you have the possibility to buy consumables and gears with real money to temporary boost the performance of your character. As there is no such thing as consumables and gears in GW2 sPvP, you can hardly call it P2W.

NB.: Some may argue that an x-pack temporary boost the performance of your character thought (which isn't wrong).

[Buran.3796]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:20 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

While this might be a controversial statement, GW2, in general, is a P2W game.

A fun, beautiful game with gorgeous artwork, great voice acting, and the most engaging MMO combat on the market in my opinion, but still P2W nontheless. 

You can credit card swipe your way to level 80, full ascended, full infusions, legendary weapons, getting a massive head start on a player who tries to grind these things out... Yes you can earn these things in game, albiet slower, but that's a classic smokescreen that more predatory games use when they say "you can technically earn it in game so it's not P2W". Time, afterall, is a valuable resource. 

Elite specs are pay to win in the most literal sense. Anet is not afraid to butcher core specs into near unplayability if it will tone down the elites. 

For example, If you play core engi and you card swipe for either PoF or HoT your chances of winning in competetive modes just increased substantially. Trying to go F2P as an engineer player is a massive handicap because it is arguably the worst class in competetive without elites. 

 

   1) I disagree. I think that in general GW2 is not a P2W game, and most of the mechanics implemented don't provide any advantage to players which chose to spent real money in the game.

   2) You will reach level 80 even without trying since every action in the game (discovering new landscapes, gathering and mining, crafting, killing foes, rezzing allies and even passively providing boons in a event or partially AFKing at WvW or PvP STILL gives you experience. Currencies are all centralized across a single account and thanks to the tomes of knownledge from PvP/WvW leveling alts is a breeze. GW2 is very environmentally friendly to free accounts, leveling alts and for people which doesn't want to touch the gem store.

   3) Once you have an ascended trinket or weapon you can share it across all your characters and for armors is the same with the heavy/mid/ligth limitation based on professions. Once one of your items is legendary is perpetually shareable and they are the most convenient items in the game by a large margin.

   4) You don't need any gear for PvP and it provides a solid amount of gold x hour (above 5 gold coins x hour with a 50% win rate in Conquest and over 10 gold coins at ATs). PvP is also the cheapest (albeit slowest) way to get the legendary armors in the game. Core Guardian and core Necro are perfectly fine at PvP.

   5) Expansions provides some advantages (as more choices for classes), but the main advantage is giving you gliding, mounts and better content fo farm gold. Being said that, you can convert gold into gems and buy any "convenience" item or service you want without paying a dime (outside for the expansions themselves), and I would say that most of the convenience items and services as extra slots in inventory, bank, shared inventory slots, extra characters, extra templates, etc.     ...have a clear diminishing returns limitations so most of people will end stop buying some of those.

6) Some of the new specs from EoD are blatlanty bad at some of the game content. That's really evident at WvW but happens also in PvP and even PvE. Sure, Willbender is meta at PvP & roaming and great at openworld, but for zerging or instanced content Firabrand is stronger; in PvE Vindicator doesn't have a chance vs Renegade or Herald and equally Soulbeast and Mirage are stronger than Untamend or Virtuoso at PvE...   And core Necro is just op.

     So far I've spent ~220 € in ten years at the game (which is ~1.8 € a month) and don't feel myself handicaped at all vs whales, neither also think that I have any advantage vs people which just paid ~100 $ for the basic games + expansions. Free accounts are at disadvantage, but still very viable, and if you really like the game paying the minimum for basic game + expans wouldn't break the bank.

   Come on, If GW2 were P2W then Black Desert Online is assault & robbery and Diablo Immortal is war crimes...

   

[Tescao.3042]

gw2 draws strength from creativity, so they stand firm against capital, although it is difficult when there are sharks of the capitalist market all around in this area.

[kharmin.7683]

9 hours ago, StarPT.7431 said:

Intentions here don't matter, it's the end result that does, and after 3 sets of elites it's pretty safe to assume what their take is on that.

Plus it seems to me that core classes can be more relevant in PvP (depending on which) than they are in PvE

I agree that the end result is probably not in line with what Anet intended.  I was merely pointing out that saying that these specs were designed to be better than core is simply inaccurate.  The statement was hyperbolic.

[Shadow Dragon.1469]

On 5/25/2022 at 4:06 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

 

snip.

 

you get it

 

On 5/26/2022 at 10:33 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Actually, this is inaccurate from Anet's perspective.  Elite builds are meant as a different way to play a profession, not as an upgrade or better spec.  Now, that may not be how it turned out, but let's not misunderstand Anet's original intentions.

 

exactly

 

On 5/25/2022 at 7:03 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

are expac specs strong? ofc they are. does this mean paying for the price of a game like you would for any other is p2w? apparently buying games is considered p2w now, k lol whatever this convo is heading no where.

 

no, the highlighted part of your post is what's wrong with your point of view and i really don't feel like going into it anymore because as you said this convo is going no where, some people will only see/hear what they want to. but i will say you bought the core game (or you joined the party super late and got the f2p version) when you "purchase" end of dragons you're buying an expansion HoT/PoF/EoD those are expansions not games.... the difference? they add content to what already exist any pvp game worth its salt

Spoiler

(gw2 for those of you who didnt know apparently alot of you are somewhat new to the game, used to have esports they tried and meant to take it seriously) 

will balance any additional content around what already exist not make said additional content purposefully better while nerfing existing content to entice people to buy it as kharmin said the original intention of elite specs where to change a way a class played not make it better but i guess that could be argued they said these things when they gave a F about the pvp portion of the game which isnt the case anymore.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

20 hours ago, Shadow Dragon.1469 said:

no, the highlighted part of your post is what's wrong with your point of view and i really don't feel like going into it anymore because as you said this convo is going no where, some people will only see/hear what they want to. but i will say you bought the core game (or you joined the party super late and got the f2p version) when you "purchase" end of dragons you're buying an expansion HoT/PoF/EoD those are expansions not games.... the difference? they add content to what already exist any pvp game worth its salt

diablo immortal is pay 2 win, gw2 is buy 2 play. full stop. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE

Edited June 3, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Pimsley.3681]

The title of this thread is already flawed. Expansions and p2w are two entirely different product categories. You get content with expansions. More than anything, Anet is too generous already. We can earn in-game gold to exchange for gems which is probably their primary source of income. No subscription fees. The only mistake they made was not include the LW stuff with expansion pack. 

 

They need to ramp up their sales and marketing efforts. Perhaps if they generate more revenues, they can re-invest in content and balance issues. 

 

But no, Gw2 is not p2w.